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Danin
2010-08-01, 02:27 AM
As you may have guessed from the title, I've been looking at the seeker lately. While it has no extra material (Can't wait for Primal Power 2) to work with, most levels seem to have a solid ability or two. As I've never made a controller I'm rolling one up in the event that my level 7 paladin meets an untimely demise (Which, given his luck with crits, may be soon) or for a level 12 campaign to be run at a later date. To go along with this, I've a few questions:

1. Does the seeker compare well to other controllers, either as a core controller or as a secondary striker?

2. Which build is best? Shifting as a minor action seems like a winner thus far but I am easily swayed and manipulated.

3. Feats. Which to take? There don't seem to be many good ones at all in the heroic tier, tons in paragon, and back to none in epic.

4. Paragon paths. Which are worthwhile? Which would I qualify for that would help that aren't necessarily the 4 in PHB3?

5. How should I be looking to play a controller? I am quite experienced with 4e and have mostly played defenders (warden, paladin) and leaders (cleric), with the exception of a brief stint as a monk. What should I be doing as a controller that I haven't been already?

6. Items. I suck at picking items. Which would be beneficial?

And finally...

7. Is it fun to play? This for me is the deal breaker. If it isn't fun it doesn't matter to me how powerful it is.

Thanks in advance!

Kurald Galain
2010-08-01, 02:53 AM
1. Does the seeker compare well to other controllers, either as a core controller or as a secondary striker?
The short answer is that no, it doesn't. In fact, the recommended way to play a seeker is to instead make a wizard, and take the Moonbow Initiate feat so you can use a bow as your implement.



3. Feats. Which to take? There don't seem to be many good ones at all in the heroic tier, tons in paragon, and back to none in epic.
In general, always take a multiclass feat, and the skill power feat. Imp initiative is generally worth it, unless you want quick draw instead. Familiars are fun, and of course there's expertise. This should cover most of your heroic selection.



5. How should I be looking to play a controller?
The most fun way in my opinion, and most aggravating for the DM's plans, is action denial. If you can keep half the room immobilized, dazed, and/or prone, you're doing it right. Whenever an enemy can't do something, be it moving, opportunity attacking, or using its minor, you're doing it right.



6. Items. I suck at picking items. Which would be beneficial?
When in doubt, take items that give you resistances. Generally, this is a better investment than boosting your defenses.

Anasazi
2010-08-01, 09:36 AM
^Agreed.
I'm not the type of person to turn my back on a class, I tend to try to make it work no matter what I do, usually the weaker the class the more surprising it is when I have them do something amazing. But the Seeker is beyond non-errata help.

Its one of the few entirely failed attempts at a class. Controllers tend to be powerful when their ability to manipulate multiple foes comes into play, however the seekers abilitys as a whole focus on single targets, making their ability to control limited. Infact, I've known sorcerers to be better controllers than these guys.. that statement, completely true, should give anyone pause. So to answer #7, no. not even close. you'll hate how weak the class is and its lack of benefits, and wonder what class could possibly do a worse job at controlling.
As Kurald stated, if you want to be a controller, theres nothing better than a wizard, want proof? Level 1 Daily: Sleep. Nuff said. Also, if you want to mix it up even more, the wizard makes for an excellent class to hybrid with.

Perhaps in time, with the help of PP2, the Seeker will actually change into something useful, but they'd have to fix alot of things before that will ever be true.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-01, 11:59 AM
Can't wait for Primal Power 2

Sorry to be the one to break this to you, but there's currently no Primal Power 2 on the release schedule (unless they're planning on doing it sometime after next April). And with the D&D Essentials line taking over in September, it doesn't look like they'll be making any more X Power books. Thankfully, Psionic Power hits shelves (along with Dark Sun) on August 17th.

cdrcjsn
2010-08-01, 03:38 PM
A seeker can be fun to play.

But it'll be a little like playing a Warlock.

Unless you have a very tactical mind and can take advantage (and understand the value) of various status effects, you'll seem like a weak striker.

In other words, the other controllers are simply easier to play for most people.

With that said, I played a human 9th level seeker for a one off game (Buffy the Vampire Seeker) and I had tons of fun playing her.

I used the melee/thrown weapon option, but felt slightly irked that there were so few exotic thrown weapons. That might get fixed with the Dark Sun release coming up though.

hamishspence
2010-08-01, 03:47 PM
I used the melee/thrown weapon option, but felt slightly irked that there were so few exotic thrown weapons. That might get fixed with the Dark Sun release coming up though.

There's some in the Eberron Player's Guide book (Drow Long Knife, Talenta Boomerang, Xendrik Boomerang) and one in Adventurer's Vault (Tratnyr).

Also- Dragon Magazine Annual has the Net and the Bola.

Reverent-One
2010-08-01, 04:04 PM
Sorry to be the one to break this to you, but there's currently no Primal Power 2 on the release schedule (unless they're planning on doing it sometime after next April). And with the D&D Essentials line taking over in September, it doesn't look like they'll be making any more X Power books. Thankfully, Psionic Power hits shelves (along with Dark Sun) on August 17th.

The Essentials line isn't taking over, once the 4 or so books of the Essential's line are out, it's over and they should be back to making books like the ones we're getting now. I'd expect more splat books for the classes that haven't gotten X power books yet.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-02, 02:37 AM
The Essentials line isn't taking over, once the 4 or so books of the Essential's line are out, it's over and they should be back to making books like the ones we're getting now.
That's speculation on your part, and it is contradicted by WOTC's news releases on the subject. We may get more "Heroes of foo" books, one of which may eventually contain the 4.4-version of the seeker. But they're doing the iconic classes first.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-02, 04:26 AM
The Essentials line isn't taking over, once the 4 or so books of the Essential's line are out, it's over and they should be back to making books like the ones we're getting now. I'd expect more splat books for the classes that haven't gotten X power books yet.

That's speculation on your part, and it is contradicted by WOTC's news releases on the subject. We may get more "Heroes of foo" books, one of which may eventually contain the 4.4-version of the seeker. But they're doing the iconic classes first.

Yeah, like I said, there's nothing else on the list after D&DE launches in September, and the list goes all the way to April 2011. So, again, it seems unlikely.

Reverent-One
2010-08-02, 09:48 AM
That's speculation on your part, and it is contradicted by WOTC's news releases on the subject. We may get more "Heroes of foo" books, one of which may eventually contain the 4.4-version of the seeker. But they're doing the iconic classes first.

Nope, not speculation. It's pretty much a direct quote by Mike Mearls (source: the next to most recent podcast, titled Essentials). The Essential's line is not releasing new builds for every class, only the PHB classes and one (if I remember correctly) from the PHB II. If you have news releases that say something to the contrary, feel free to link them up.


Yeah, like I said, there's nothing else on the list after D&DE launches in September, and the list goes all the way to April 2011. So, again, it seems unlikely.

Heroes of Shadow is not a D&DE book, and that's the last one on the list.

chaotoroboto
2010-08-03, 07:59 PM
As you may have guessed from the title, I've been looking at the seeker lately. While it has no extra material (Can't wait for Primal Power 2) to work with, most levels seem to have a solid ability or two. As I've never made a controller I'm rolling one up in the event that my level 7 paladin meets an untimely demise (Which, given his luck with crits, may be soon) or for a level 12 campaign to be run at a later date. To go along with this, I've a few questions:

1. Does the seeker compare well to other controllers, either as a core controller or as a secondary striker?

2. Which build is best? Shifting as a minor action seems like a winner thus far but I am easily swayed and manipulated.

3. Feats. Which to take? There don't seem to be many good ones at all in the heroic tier, tons in paragon, and back to none in epic.

4. Paragon paths. Which are worthwhile? Which would I qualify for that would help that aren't necessarily the 4 in PHB3?

5. How should I be looking to play a controller? I am quite experienced with 4e and have mostly played defenders (warden, paladin) and leaders (cleric), with the exception of a brief stint as a monk. What should I be doing as a controller that I haven't been already?

6. Items. I suck at picking items. Which would be beneficial?

And finally...

7. Is it fun to play? This for me is the deal breaker. If it isn't fun it doesn't matter to me how powerful it is.

Thanks in advance!

I haven't decided on whether or not Seeker's any good, but I'm currently playing a Halfling Seeker at lvl 3. My build has stuff from Dragon, so I guess it's not RPGA legal. So far it's alright, it's getting better (which I guess is the point of leveling).

Most of my attacks pin, slow, or prone enemies, that's the concept of the build. I took the class feature with shifty and encaging spirits. All of my stat points are in wisdom, since I don't have the pips.


Feats: Lvl 1, I took the Halfling Shortbow Hunter feat, which is from Dragon, and turns a shortbow into Brutal 2 and gives it 20/40 range. Lvl 2, I took Vicious Advantage, so I can get CA against anyone I've slowed or immobilized, which means anyone I've hit.

Powers: At Will: Grappling Spirits (slows) and Biting Swarm (-2 atk).
Enc.: Encaging Spirits (burst 1 push & slow), Mischief Spirits (pin or prone), Winter Spirit (immob.)
Daily: Swarming Bats (zone of DT)
Utes: Stag's Grace (don't provoke OA)

Magic Items: Goblin Totem Shortbow +1, Firestorm and Lightning Arrows.

Next up is Weapon Ex Bow, and then I'll look at feats that reduce cover/conceal.

My biggest concern with my character is a combination of low defenses and low hp.

I had built it out to level 12 (to compare to the party in my game) but I apparently didn't save so I don't know where I went from there.


If I was thinking the thrown weapon seeker, I'd be tempted to go with elf or dwarf - their weapon training feats are awesome.

Delcan
2010-08-03, 08:58 PM
Level 15 - Fey Sinkhole. Pump your accuracy a bit, and make sure that your enemies never get a worthwhile turn again. Get your fellow PCs to take some push/pull/slide powers so they can haul people into your pet black hole.

Seriously, this power alone is worth the price of admission. If you as a DM need to know exactly how to counter a certain power in a fight (in this case: daze/stun the Seeker, push your monster buddies out of the zone, or otherwise negate opportunity attacks), then that power's gotta be pretty good.

Seeker may not be the best controller, but it's definitely got a lot going for it once you get past the issues targeting more than one monster.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-04, 02:22 AM
My build has stuff from Dragon, so I guess it's not RPGA legal.
Dragon magazine is definitely RPGA legal; it says so in the character creation guide.



Next up is Weapon Ex Bow, and then I'll look at feats that reduce cover/conceal.
I would recommend a multiclass feat, as well as improved initiative.


Level 15 - Fey Sinkhole. Pump your accuracy a bit, and make sure that your enemies never get a worthwhile turn again.
Isn't that rather like the level 5 power, Visions of Avarice? :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-04, 06:43 AM
Heroes of Shadow is not a D&DE book, and that's the last one on the list.

It's also the ONLY one on the list after the beginning of D&DE. That also doesn't change the fact that Primal Power 2 is thus far NOT on the list (which was my original point).

The fact is that the only X Power book currently on the list of future releases is Psionic Power coming out this month.

Reverent-One
2010-08-04, 06:05 PM
It's also the ONLY one on the list after the beginning of D&DE. That also doesn't change the fact that Primal Power 2 is thus far NOT on the list (which was my original point).

It's the only one because after that it's simply too far in advance to have ANY D&D game books on the list, so saying that because <whatever book> is not the list yet means it isn't likely to come out at all doesn't make sense.

tbarrie
2010-08-04, 08:01 PM
[Heroes of Shadow]'s also the ONLY [non-Essentials book] on the list after the beginning of D&DE.

That's simply untrue; the Gazetteer: Nentir Vale is also there. Looking at books, there's also a narrowly-themed non-Essential Dungeon Tiles set coming after the four Essential ones, and the "Deluxe DM's Screen" is also not flagged as an Essential product.

And since they've been pretty clear that "Essentials" is a closed set of ten products (three books, two boxed sets, four sets of tiles, and a set of dice), saying we're unsure whether they'll go back to producing non-Essential products is tantamount to saying that they may give up on producing new D&D products at all. Which is not impossible, but it strikes me as unlikely.


That also doesn't change the fact that Primal Power 2 is thus far NOT on the list (which was my original point).

Well, the "Heroes of Shadow" at least suggests they may be changing the name they use for splatbooks. And a "Power 2" book for less-iconic power sources like Primal or Psionic was a longshot in any event, IMODO.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-05, 04:26 AM
And since they've been pretty clear that "Essentials" is a closed set of ten products (three books, two boxed sets, four sets of tiles, and a set of dice), saying we're unsure whether they'll go back to producing non-Essential products is tantamount to saying that they may give up on producing new D&D products at all.
The point is that WOTC has also repeatedly stated that 4.4 is the New Direction for their products - which is to say that any future products, even though they won't be called "essential", will follow the principles of 4.4 rather than those of 4.0.

It remains to be seen how much of a difference that makes, really, but it is obvious that "Heroes of Foo" books are different from "Foo Power" books in content, not just in name. I find it very likely that most or all future feats and powers printed for the fighter and rogue will be aimed towards the new build with no attack powers, instead of the older builds.

This also means that classes that are not in 4.4, such as the Seeker, are unlikely to get significant new options any time soon. They might get a Dragon article if they're lucky, but even in the past it has been the case that the Iconic classes get way more support in Dragon, too.

Reverent-One
2010-08-05, 07:11 AM
The point is that WOTC has also repeatedly stated that 4.4 is the New Direction for their products - which is to say that any future products, even though they won't be called "essential", will follow the principles of 4.4 rather than those of 4.0.

Again, where do they say this? How about backing up your claims? And given that the Essentials line has yet to really show any principles not already in pre-essentials books, any source saying that sounds like marketing hype, while on the other hand, Mike Mearls is saying that the books after Essentials will be like the ones we're getting now.


It remains to be seen how much of a difference that makes, really, but it is obvious that "Heroes of Foo" books are different from "Foo Power" books in content, not just in name. I find it very likely that most or all future feats and powers printed for the fighter and rogue will be aimed towards the new build with no attack powers, instead of the older builds.

You mean like Martial Power 2 didn't have a lot of powers designed with the fighter/rogue/whatever builds from the PHB I in mind? I wonder, if they were to do so, whether or not that would be because any pre-essentials builds have already gotten a splatbook of support.

And the thing is, while a Heroes of X book is not going to be identical to a X Power book, a Heroes of X book has plenty of room for everything in a associated X Power book along with whatever other different stuff they could want to put in. Such content would make sense for a Heroes of X book, and they have yet to reveal anything that would prevent them from fitting it in.


This also means that classes that are not in 4.4, such as the Seeker, are unlikely to get significant new options any time soon. They might get a Dragon article if they're lucky, but even in the past it has been the case that the Iconic classes get way more support in Dragon, too.

That seems too early to call, thus far every class has gotten some splatbook support, it doesn't make sense to expect them to suddenly change that.