Question on PrC ability +1 level to spellcasting class

[wick]

I have a question about the ability of some prestige classes that gives +1 to existing spell casting class.

It seems to me that the only benefit is that you can memorize more spells as if you went up a level in that class.

But, what about spells that scale up in power with your caster level? Would the addition of the prestige class allow you to cast one more magic missle? An extra D6 to your fireball? For a cleric there are many spells that improve with high level...divine favor...Spiritual Weapon.


Looking through the DMG it just says the +1 caster level is for spells per day. i just want to make sure my interpretation is correct.

[KillianHawkeye]

It advances Caster Level, spells known, and spells per day as if you gained a level in the original class.

[faceroll]

I have a question about the ability of some prestige classes that gives +1 to existing spell casting class.

It seems to me that the only benefit is that you can memorize more spells as if you went up a level in that class.

But, what about spells that scale up in power with your caster level? Would the addition of the prestige class allow you to cast one more magic missle? An extra D6 to your fireball? For a cleric there are many spells that improve with high level...divine favor...Spiritual Weapon.


Looking through the DMG it just says the +1 caster level is for spells per day. i just want to make sure my interpretation is correct.

What prestige class are you looking at?
Caster level is what determines how many magic missiles you get, how many d6 on a fireball, how long spells last, etc. I am not entirely sure what spells/day, spells known, and level of spell access is called, as that keys of a slightly different mechanic. Spell caster level, maybe?

For instance a wizard3/fighter4 has a caster level of 3 and can cast 2nd level spells. A wizard3/fighter4 with practiced spellcaster (a feat from complete arcane that gives you +4 to caster level) can cast 2nd level spells, but they behave as if a level 7 wizard cast them. A level 7 wizard can cast 4th level spells and they behave as if a level 7 wizard cast them.

[Tyndmyr]

+1 existing spellcasting class is the whole ball of wax. More spells, improved caster level, etc.

+1 caster level is just the caster level.

Two different things.

[jiriku]

Yeah, the descriptions of many prestige classes are sloppy about this. The designers hadn't developed a standardized way of describing it when the DMG was printed, and even afterwards some authors were sloppy and departed from the standardized method. But Tyndmyr's description is how it's intended to work.

[Milskidasith]

Yeah, the descriptions of many prestige classes are sloppy about this. The designers hadn't developed a standardized way of describing it when the DMG was printed, and even afterwards some authors were sloppy and departed from the standardized method. But Tyndmyr's description is how it's intended to work.

I'm pretty sure there is no PrC that grants "+1 caster level" and those that do are probably intended to advance everything, but I could be wrong. And that PrC would be very weak.

Now, feats and items, those give +1 caster level a lot, and it is a very good thing they don't also advance everything else.

[wick]

+1 existing spellcasting class is the whole ball of wax. More spells, improved caster level, etc.

+1 caster level is just the caster level.

Two different things.

It is not very clear in the DMG but take " The archmage" Prc for example:
On Table 6-3 on each level under SPELLS PER DAY (capped for emphasis) it has "+1 level of existing spellcasting class"
This would lead me to believe this is only for number of spells per day.

In the text: To paraphrase: the character gains new spells per day as if he gain a level to an existing spell casting class. But he does not gain any other BENEFIT a characer of that class would have gained.

It seems to me that the entry is quite specific that the +1 to casting class is only for "spells per day" rather than the "whole ball of wax"

Granted this is looking at just one PrC in one book. But looking at Arcane Trickster

Eldritch Knight says specifically in the text that the +1 is for both spells per day and for determining caster level.

Heirophant levels don't add new spells per day but do count towards caster level.

Loremaster: specifically in the text that the +1 is for both spells per day and for determining caster level.


I guess the lesson here is to read the description carefull to determine what the rule means for that particular PrC.

[Boci]

I guess the lesson here is to read the description carefull to determine what the rule means for that particular PrC.

I seriously doubt eldritch knight was meant to progress caster level whilst archmage wasn't. As others said, there was no standard way of phrasing PrC that advanced casting. But yes, but RAW, the archmage does indeed appear to not advance caster level.

[PId6]

I'm pretty sure there is no PrC that grants "+1 caster level" and those that do are probably intended to advance everything, but I could be wrong. And that PrC would be very weak.
Hierophant. There's a reason nobody ever takes it outside of gestalt.

[Milskidasith]

Hierophant. There's a reason nobody ever takes it outside of gestalt.

I can see taking a one level dip for the free maximize spells on energy drain/enervation, but yeah, that's pretty bad.

[tyckspoon]

Hierophant. There's a reason nobody ever takes it outside of gestalt.

Also Epic, sometimes, or when you're doing a Holy Word build and just want the double-speed CL progression from picking Spell Power 5 times.

[mjames]

I guess the lesson here is to read the description carefull to determine what the rule means for that particular PrC.

I would say the lesson here is most likely that WOTC has different writers with various ways of writing the same thing.

For the most part, when a PrC says +1 level spellcasting class it would tend to mean you get the advancement of everything, but no special abilities. If otherwise, people wouldn't use prestige classes.

With things like Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant that don't really have that much as far as special abilities but progress 2 spellcasting classes, what would be the point of being 4Wiz/4Cle/12 ArcH? You would still get stomped by Wiz20 if we don't scale the Caster Level with the increase. Spells are nice, but many variables are based on CL.

[wick]

I would say the lesson here is most likely that WOTC has different writers with various ways of writing the same thing.

For the most part, when a PrC says +1 level spellcasting class it would tend to mean you get the advancement of everything, but no special abilities. If otherwise, people wouldn't use prestige classes.

With things like Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant that don't really have that much as far as special abilities but progress 2 spellcasting classes, what would be the point of being 4Wiz/4Cle/12 ArcH? You would still get stomped by Wiz20 if we don't scale the Caster Level with the increase. Spells are nice, but many variables are based on CL.

by ArcH do you mean archmage? why would an archmage take 4 levels of cleric? or do you mean mystic theurge? Assuming you mean a duel caster type:

That depends. There are quite a few spells whose level dependent variables don't need to be higher level to be effective. Fireball does to an extent but once your at CL10 in the caster class the only thing your lossing is more range. Other spells are really effected little such as charm spells since they do not get more powerful per caster level although in some instance a longer duration may be desireable. Many spells don't increase dramatically in power with more caster levels.

Why should a more generalized caster, 4Wiz/4Cle/12 ArcH be "better" than a straight up 20 Wiz? The point of the 4Wiz/4Cle/12 ArcH is that you have a far far far bigger repertoire of spells than the 20 Wiz and can do things that the 20 Wiz can't. The 20 Wiz should be better at his more limited scope of abilities. The point is also character concept, not to be a munchkin, well that is my point anyways.

Look at it using the opposite interpretation and the question then becomes: what is the point of a 20 Wiz when a 4Wiz/4Cle/12 ArcH is far more powerful with little sacrifice. Then you start asking, why would anyone be 20 Wiz?

[ZeroNumerous]

by ArcH do you mean archmage? why would an archmage take 4 levels of cleric? or do you mean mystic theurge?

He means Arcane Heirophant. Arc. H.

[Vangor]

The initial language is essentially identical for Archmage, Loremaster, and Eldritch Knight, focusing strictly on spells per day with deviations only on which original classes could receive the additional spells per day. Both the Loremaster and Eldritch Knight say, "This essentially means...and caster level". Seeing as how they are explaining rather than including additional rules, this would apply to Archmage, as well. Note the Eldritch Knight also ignores spells known despite Sorcerers and Bards, amongst others now, qualifying for the PrC. As others have said, consider all of this a lack of standardized language.