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Prax4788
2010-08-02, 05:00 AM
i was looking at the kobolds in pathfinder

and is it just me or do they keep making them to weak to play

even the goblin is playible but the kobold just seems useless am i wrong ?

Hurlbut
2010-08-02, 12:10 PM
i was looking at the kobolds in pathfinder

and is it just me or do they keep making them to weak to play

even the goblin is playible but the kobold just seems useless am i wrong ?They're same except the PF kobold have stealth as class skill, 3.5 doesn't.

Zadus
2010-08-02, 12:24 PM
I'm pretty sure all the fun of playing a Kobold comes from the fact that you are cannon fodder who's trying to be a hero.

They are substantially weaker than other races, but you become truly heroic by overcoming adversity and speaking in broken common.

Urpriest
2010-08-02, 01:08 PM
Kobolds only really started being useful in 3.5 when broken dragon-themed build options were given to them in Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic. Without broken stuff like that, Pathfinder kobolds go back to their intended cannon fodder role.

Mark Hall
2010-08-02, 01:20 PM
I have to say, I HATE the "kobolds are related to dragons" thing that 3.5 did. It sounds like a neat bit of mythology, but I never saw a need for it to be real. They're freaky pygmy lizardmen.

Beelzebub1111
2010-08-02, 01:24 PM
I have to say, I HATE the "kobolds are related to dragons" thing that 3.5 did. It sounds like a neat bit of mythology, but I never saw a need for it to be real. They're freaky pygmy lizardmen.

Who started out as pygmy dogmen that kind of looked like pugs with horns.

Mark Hall
2010-08-02, 02:39 PM
Who started out as pygmy dogmen that kind of looked like pugs with horns.

Actually, the DiTerlizzi art is what pushed the dogmen angle; the text has fairly consistently described them as reptiley.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-02, 03:18 PM
I have to say, I HATE the "kobolds are related to dragons" thing that 3.5 did. It sounds like a neat bit of mythology, but I never saw a need for it to be real. They're freaky pygmy lizardmen.

Personally speaking, I find their belief that it's real and incontrovertable far more entertaining than the fact that it is or isn't the case.

Also, the Dragon themed options in Races of the Dragon itself were not really that broken at all. You could pull a few tricks with the HP-sacrificing ritual and so on, but it only really becomes cheese when you add in access to templates not only from a seperate book, but a setting specific book that was not intended to be used with such Kobolds (poor inter-company communication, etc).

Even the 'no penalties from aging' thing isn't THAT over the top, given the truly massive penalties that Kobolds start with.

Mark Hall
2010-08-02, 04:07 PM
Personally speaking, I find their belief that it's real and incontrovertable far more entertaining than the fact that it is or isn't the case.

Oh, I like the belief. That's cool, and kinda fits with kobold hubris.

Prax4788
2010-08-02, 06:23 PM
Why do they have separate player stats if there not worth being a player race

Runeclaw
2010-08-02, 06:28 PM
Why do they have separate player stats if there not worth being a player race

I case someone wanted to play them despite that? Sometimes people play mechanically disadvantageous things because they have a character concept that interests them.

I mean, really, almost all of the race/class combos are non-ideal. But some people still play them.

Prax4788
2010-08-02, 06:30 PM
I case someone wanted to play them despite that? Sometimes people play mechanically disadvantageous things because they have a character concept that interests them.

I mean, really, almost all of the race/class combos are non-ideal. But some people still play them.

cant really think of any that are this far bad

Temotei
2010-08-02, 06:37 PM
cant really think of any that are this far bad

A tiny barbarian focused on Combat Expertise and Dexterity-based skills multiclassed into bard, but he only has 6 Charisma and no ranks in Perform. :smalltongue:

Oorah!

Anyway, the kobold's not terrible for a rogue, or even a warlock.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-08-02, 07:07 PM
They're same except the PF kobold have stealth as class skill, 3.5 doesn't.

Isn't that part of the problem? Most of the races seemed to have gotten a boost in PF.

TheMeMan
2010-08-02, 07:34 PM
cant really think of any that are this far bad

Well, as long as you focus on classes that don't rely on the negative aspects, it's not so bad. Casters aren't bad to play as, as they don't care about the negatives you get. Plus, sometimes people come up with a concept they just want to play(My narcissistic Kobold Spirit Shaman comes to mind). As long as something can function relatively well, I don't necessarily see the need for precision optimization, or even strong optimization.

The only case I can think of where a Kobold may be completely terrible is anything involving melee.

FMArthur
2010-08-02, 07:57 PM
I'm a bit fuzzy on the rules in Pathfinder on sources; does the Races of the Dragon web enhancement for kobolds still apply? It gave them a few neat racial traits.

tyckspoon
2010-08-02, 08:03 PM
I'm a bit fuzzy on the rules in Pathfinder on sources; does the Races of the Dragon web enhancement for kobolds still apply? It gave them a few neat racial traits.

Pathfinder claims to be backwards compatible, so it's basically one of those Ask Your DM things. If he's playing Pathfinder+, where the Pathfinder book is basically used as a replacement for the 3.5 Core books, and was already ok with the web enhancements, then yes, it's still valid. If he's starting anew with only Paizo-printed material, then no.

Xyk
2010-08-02, 08:06 PM
*too weak.

Sorry, I can't help it. On topic, I love playing a kobold. They are so funny and little. I usually give them organization reminiscent of the chinese olympic opener when they are NPCs. It gives them their own flavor and threat to even high-level adventurers.

Marnath
2010-08-02, 10:27 PM
Something people usually forget when talking about kobolds is how good they are at traps. If you're inventive enough you can easily TPK an ecl 18 party with mundane traps. Like the giant magnet wall and rustmonsters trick combined with a coating of contact poison that does str or con damage, and the opposite wall shoots a whole bunch of iron spikes which get an attack bonus against the squares you're standing against due to the magnetic field. And a reserviour of acid in the ceiling that opens if you disable the magnet before the acid trap. Heck, flooded tunnel and pit trap can kill an unprepared heavy armor user regardless of how high a level he is.

Rixx
2010-08-02, 10:35 PM
Why do they have separate player stats if there not worth being a player race

They have rules for kobold characters, not kobold players. The rules are there so a DM can roll up a 4th level kobold warrior to lead the raiding party. If a player wants to roll up a kobold, well, they should be prepared to suck a little at first.

Urpriest
2010-08-02, 10:41 PM
They have rules for kobold characters, not kobold players. The rules are there so a DM can roll up a 4th level kobold warrior to lead the raiding party. If a player wants to roll up a kobold, well, they should be prepared to suck a little at first.

This makes me think of a bunch of kobolds sitting around a table in a basement, rolling dragonbone d20s...

Marnath
2010-08-02, 10:43 PM
This makes me think of a bunch of kobolds sitting around a table in a basement, rolling dragonbone d20s...


Sounds like a good idea for npc's in a d20 modern campaign.

Tinydwarfman
2010-08-02, 10:49 PM
This makes me think of a bunch of kobolds sitting around a table in a basement, rolling dragonbone d20s...

I mean really, this makes a lot of sense. Who else would play someone as incredibly pathetic as modern day humans? Kobolds secretly control the universe!

The Glyphstone
2010-08-02, 10:55 PM
I mean really, this makes a lot of sense. Who else would play someone as incredibly pathetic as modern day humans? Kobolds secretly control the universe!

Would that mean a dragon is the DM? It'd explain why humans like explosions so much.

HunterOfJello
2010-08-02, 10:59 PM
If you're unhappy with their racial stats and abilities you can always negotiate some improvements with your DM.

I've been incorporating Pathfinder material into my 3.5e games and I can appreciate the idea that while most races got boosts, the people who make Pathfinder understood that Kobolds are supposed to be a race of occasional wanna-be heroes who really should avoid adventuring altogether.

A Kobold character is fun because you can work hard to make them useful to the party and successful in the campaign, even with all of their inherent weaknesses.

~

Honestly, their stats aren't that bad considering that most Kobold characters taking levels in classes that don't use strength. They're then left with +2 Dex and -2 Con left, you're just looking at 3.5e elf lookalike. Darkvision is nice, +1 Natural Armor is good, 30ft movement is always handy and Stealth as a permanent class skill is amazing.

Rixx
2010-08-02, 11:24 PM
Not to mention the size bonus to stealth, as well. A Kobold sniper would be amazing.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-08-03, 01:27 AM
they're kobold. . . they're suposed to have terrible stats. . . it's part of the joy of them being kobold. . . if you dont want to play the crappyness then dont play a kobold. there are other options out there

Personally I think it's fantastic to play a kobold and have him just suck at some things. . . it's super fun to role play the odd terrible stat.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-03, 01:37 AM
If you're unhappy with their racial stats and abilities you can always negotiate some improvements with your DM.

I've been incorporating Pathfinder material into my 3.5e games and I can appreciate the idea that while most races got boosts, the people who make Pathfinder understood that Kobolds are supposed to be a race of occasional wanna-be heroes who really should avoid adventuring altogether.

A Kobold character is fun because you can work hard to make them useful to the party and successful in the campaign, even with all of their inherent weaknesses.

~

Honestly, their stats aren't that bad considering that most Kobold characters taking levels in classes that don't use strength. They're then left with +2 Dex and -2 Con left, you're just looking at 3.5e elf lookalike. Darkvision is nice, +1 Natural Armor is good, 30ft movement is always handy and Stealth as a permanent class skill is amazing.

With -4 to strength AND a -2 to con, that's not really "Avoid strength based" as "Don't hit things up close ever, and be careful when lifting or carrying anything beyond your own clothes" pretty much. They really are the archetypal "Negative Level adjustment" race. (Even though there's no such thing as Negative LA.)

Personally, I don't agree with the 'If you want to play a kobold, surely you want to play something sucky'. That's just not what attracts me to them as a race, rather their fluff and the roleplaying possibilities the fluff raises is the draw. I really don't feel that I need a net -4 to stats (Which would, in theory, balance out about 8 points of bonus given the whole strength-is-worth-double thing).

CubeB
2010-08-03, 02:19 AM
Kobolds aren't so bad in pathfinder if you know what you're doing.

Especially if you're allowed to use the variant races. My Earth Kobold Half Dragon does quite well. ...Of course he's a Warblade, which is WotC content. But a fighter would work as well.

Rixx
2010-08-03, 02:36 AM
Kobolds aren't so bad in pathfinder if you know what you're doing.

Especially if you're allowed to use the variant races. My Earth Kobold Half Dragon does quite well. ...Of course he's a Warblade, which is WotC content. But a fighter would work as well.

So you're basically saying that Kobolds aren't so bad in Pathfinder if they're 3.5 Kobolds?

CubeB
2010-08-03, 02:46 AM
So you're basically saying that Kobolds aren't so bad in Pathfinder if they're 3.5 Kobolds?

Exactly!

...But yeah, Kobolds aren't meant to be a PC Race anyway. If you're going to play one, you need to make adjustments.

Soranar
2010-08-03, 05:29 AM
Stealth as a class skill but you lose your natural attacks (which were quite decent all things considered: you started with 3 and you could gain another through the dragon tail feat)

obviously you lose all the dragonwrought shenanigans and the free spellcasting levels

without those though you end up with -4 to str, +2 Dex -2 Con small creature with 30ft movement +1 natural armor and stealth is always in class

You can still make a decent mage, sorcerer or bard with that but the Con penalty is rather bad and obviously you rely on ranged weapons

not wasting spells of hiding and a +2 to AC (1 from Dex , 1 from natural armor) without losing movement can be worked with. It's not as strong as having more hitpoints but it's something

If I remember right, pathfinder says that your favored classes gives you +1 hitpoint per level if you take levels in them

you can easily argue that whatever class you're taking is your favored class since none are listed so the Con hit is not as bad as it sounds

I'd just play a mage with a crossbow , pump INT, DEX and CON and you have a fine character which another small class can't do better than you (20 ft movement, not a favored class, only difference is STR)

Mongoose87
2010-08-03, 06:27 AM
Let's not overestimate the importance of having Stealth as an always class skill. You only need it to be a class skill on to get the +3, then it doesn't matter.