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Private-Prinny
2010-08-02, 11:00 AM
Basically, a challenge to create an optimized, flavorful character, using a "Secret Ingredient" of a particular PrC, different for each contest. You will need to present your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Cooking Time: Contestants will have until Monday, August 9th to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Private-Prinny. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic point lost in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points.

I am going to have to ask the contestants to PM me about any disagreement with the judges. Under no circumstances is a contestant to defend themselves inside the thread, lest the thread come close to being locked again.

Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when anonymising the entries!

Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for about 5 judges and as many contestants as feel like playing!

This week's Secret Ingredient is...

Complete Adventurer's Animal Lord!

Allez optimiser!

Judges
9mm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9061729&postcount=12)
Keld Denar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9058724&postcount=3)
Ozymandias9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9059776&postcount=8)
true_shinken (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9062701&postcount=13)

Contestants
Adumbration
Amphetryon
BooNL
Chineselegolas
Cieyrin
dextercorvia
Draz74
Eladriel
IdleMuse
Natael
OMG PONIES
The Vorpal Tribble

Past Competitions

Iron Chef I (Entropomancer) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142470)
Iron Chef II (Psibond Agent) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146583)
Iron Chef III (Cancer Mage) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148584)
Iron Chef IV (Stonelord) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150595)
Iron Chef V (War Chanter) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152543)
Iron Chef VI (Master of Masks) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876)
Iron Chef VII (Green Star Adept) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158633)
Iron Chef VIII (Pyrokineticist) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160266)

dextercorvia
2010-08-02, 11:10 AM
I'll try again. This secret ingredient sure has a lot of options.

Keld Denar
2010-08-02, 11:42 AM
I'll judge again if you found my previous judging acceptable. Here's my criteria:
My Criteria
Originality: Does the submission use unexpected sources or material? Does it avoid over-used qualification methods? Does it use the secret ingredient in an unusual or clever way? This section is an amalgam of the build itself and how the build is presented.

Power: What tier is this build? Does the inclusion of <Secret Ingredient> actually make this build more powerful? Is the build well-optimized? Are there any noticable saggy spots where the build underperforms? Is the build versatile (able to respond to a variety of challenges, both combat and non-combat), on top of any specialized tricks it may contain. Does the build use large amounts of LA and/or RHD that could lead to a slow start? Be as detailed as possible. If there is something your build does that is powerful, yet not completely obvious, you should probably expand upon it.

Elegance: Does your build progress well? Does it avoid flaws and variant rules (not including published Alt Class Features like Racial Subs)? Do you avoid overly dipping classes like cleric 1 that are obviously for bonus feats/class abilities? Does your build subscribe to various power break points if it doesn't complete a PrC? Do you avoid using Taint and Dark Chaos shuffling? Other judges might, but I have no problem with a player drawing from a multitude of sources. As far as I'm concerned, if material in a source book improves your submission, use it, excluding certain material from books like Savage Species, Ghostwalk, Serpent Kingdoms, and the like, but that's mostly because of the material, not the source that it comes from. This section is the one most affected by your back story and build presentation, but the submission itself is still very important here. PLEASE CITE ALL SOURCES USED!

Use of Secret Ingredient: How important is the secret ingredient in this build? Would you refer to the build as being A <Secret Ingredient>, or are you just splashing the PrC in there? Does the flavor of the build fit that of the PrC? Do you use the PrC in a clever, synergistic or powerful way? Do the special abilities of the secret ingredient augement or are augemented by other abilities in the build? If you didn't use all levels of the secret ingredient (and you don't always have to), do you have good reasoning why not, and did you exit at an acceptable power break point? This section is an amalgam of the build itself and how the build is presented.

IdleMuse
2010-08-02, 12:06 PM
Definitely up for this, will be competing again, and well done to Private-Prinny for again picking a cool, flavourful class that's nonetheless off the beaten track.

I'm reading through it now, I just winced at the awful version of semi-Pounce catlords get.

Amphetryon
2010-08-02, 12:07 PM
Once more (at least) as a contestant, for me.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-02, 12:21 PM
Put me in as a possible judge.

I have an awesome concept, which despite all that, is not especially optimized. If I can't figure out how to optimize it I'll judge.

BooNL
2010-08-02, 01:11 PM
I have been away for a while and I haven't played DnD in months.

Put me down as a contender, but I can't promise I'll submit an entry. I'll try my best though.

Animal Lord, interesting...

Edit: I've decided to take something terrible and try to optimize the hell out of it. Be wary!

Ozymandias9
2010-08-02, 02:02 PM
I'm in to judge this one.

My Judging Criteria:

All scores start at a base of 3.
Points are awarded or deducted in increments of .5
Minimum and maximum scores are 1 and 5 respectively, per contest rules.
For each category, the best preforming submission will be given an additional .5 points (assuming it's not already at 5).

While I do have a specific set of expected builds and power levels for this competition, I will not be revealing them in advance: I don't want to discourage certain builds simply because they might take a small hit in Originality or Power (especially since some of my favorite builds in this contest have had a category or two where they were somewhat lacking).

Category Criteria
These represent a base list his I will consider for all contestants-- ad hoc points may also be awarded as deemed necessary):

Originality:
A kind of build that is heavily expected will lose 0.5 points (for example, the expected entry for an Abjurant Champion competition would be a gish)
A specific build that I expected (generally including at least 2 specifically expected classes other than the secret ingredient) will lose an additional 0.5 points
A build with marked similarities to more than one other submitted build will lose 0.5 points (this may be adjusted for exceptionally large or small submission fields)
A build the borrows heavily and noticeably from existing CharOp work on the secret ingredient will lose 1 point.
A kind of build that I actively did not expect to see will gain 0.5 points (for the Abjurant Champion example, a build that has minimal casting for entry then goes to a different power system)
A build that is vastly different that the other builds submitted will gain 0.5 points (this may be adjusted for exceptionally large or small submission fields)
A submission that represents a particularly innovative and original contribution to the body of CharOp work on the secret ingredient will net at least 0.5 points. (i.e. Ingus's "Seera" from the Master of Masks competition). Such a submission will also net points for the same thing in Use of Special Ingredient.


Power:My power judging will heavily lean on the tier system as a benchmark for the structure of my judging. When I am refering to something as a low tier 2 or high tier 3, I'm noting that I would expect the character in question to either be "specialized and extremely powerful, but without particularly extreme flexibility" or to "have a useful specialty at which they excel while still being useful outside that role."
I am not, however, using any specific list for the tier system as it relates to prestige classes.

I will measure power the power I would expect for the "default" entry for the special ingredient (for the Abjurant Champion example, I would measure against a high tier 3 or low tier 2-- my default expectation for a gish)
For each "half a tier" (the difference between say, a weak tier 3 and a strong tier 3 or between a strong tier 5 and a weak tier 4) to which the submission aspires above the given default (see #1 above), it will gain 0.5 points. For each "half a tier" below the default, it will lose 0.5 points. This will generally be measured against what one would expect given the elements of the build other than the secret ingredient.
For each "half a tier" by which the submission exceeds its aspirations (see #2 above), it will gain 0.5 points. For each "half a tier" by which the submission falls thereof, it will lose 0.5 points.
A build which features particular innovative mechanical synergy will gain 0.5 points.
Builds that include rule errors will be judged as though the correct rules are in effect. This will not be levied against elements where the wording is particularly ambiguous, nor when there is general consensus that the issue is a result of poor editing on the part of the system designers (note: Poor editing, not poor design. Healing through drowning qualifies. The Truenamer being horrible does not).


Elegance:
The stated contest rule regarding flaws is in effect: a build that uses them will lose 1 point.
A build that uses elements poorly thematically suited to the build as a whole will lose at least 0.5 points (cf. the contest's notes on elegance, specifically the cloistered cleric example). This is not limited to classes-- for example, feats with strong thematic elements may also qualify.
A build that uses elements exceptionally well thematically suited to the special ingredient will gain at least 0.5 points
Submissions that rely on elements that a conservative DM is likely to find questionable will lose 0.5 points (early entry cheese, for example). Submissions that rely on elements that a conservative DM is likely to outright ban will lose an additional 0.5 points (wish abuse, genesis, etc.).
A build where there seems to be some reason behind the order in which classes are taken will gain 0.5 points. One where there seems to be a lack thereof will lose 0.5 points. This need not mean strictly patterned or piecewise, but if I can't find a reason why you're breaking the Special ingredient progression for 2 levels of something you don't touch again till 20, and you don't present one, you'll be docked here.
A submission could be reasonably role-played as non-disruptive character will gain 0.5 points. A submission that could be reasonably role-played for a particularly wide range of characters will net an additional 0.5 points.
A submission that I would expect only to be non-disruptive in a game with very light role-playing emphasis or for a particularly narrow set of characters will lose 0.5 points (builds that could only reasonably work as antagonists qualify here). A submission that I would expect to be disruptive in most play will lose an additional 0.5 points.
A submission that has notable rules errors will lose 0.5 points. A submission that is made significantly less functional because of such an error will lose an additional 0.5 points.
A submission that would be expected to significantly enrich a persistent game world/game table will be awarded between 0.5 and 1 points (examples from past contests which would qualify: Akal Saris's "Noxius, the Immortal Plague" and "Old Lob," Draz74's "Jereth")
A note on story submission: A character story is not strictly necessary for me. However, should a small story (or character notes) be submitted, I will look at them as a possible proof of concept for the points above related to role-playing and playability. It should be noted that a story that is exceptionally detailed may, if anything, detract from this point-- an extreme level of detail could (but does not always) indicate that the build may only fit a narrow range of characters similar to the one presented in the story. The quality of writing, while appreciated, will not affect score.


Use of Special Ingredient:
A build for which the special ingredient is central to the build as presented will gain 0.5 points.
A build for which the special ingredient is ancillary to the build as presented will lose 0.5 points.
A build that could not reasonably function in the absence of the special ingredient will gain at least 0.5 points, and possibly up to 1 point.
A build which would be expected to function better in with less levels in the special ingredient will lose 0.5 points. A build that would function better in the complete absence of the special ingredient will instead loose 1 point.
A build that uses 80% or more of the available levels in the special ingredient will gain 0.5 points.
A build that uses less that 40% of the available levels in the special ingredient will lose 0.5 points.
A build that contributes in a new an innovative way to the char op work on the class (i.e. Ingus's "Seera" from the Master of Masks competition) will gain 1 point. Such a submission will also net points in Originality.

Arbitrarity
2010-08-02, 03:56 PM
I'll set something up again. I stress waaay too much over these.

Yaaaay, table!

Have I ever mentioned how much I loathe multiclassing penalties? :smallannoyed:

ex cathedra
2010-08-02, 04:23 PM
I believe that I would finally like to compete in this challenge.

Also, excellent call on the table.

true_shinken
2010-08-02, 05:42 PM
I'm willing to judge this time, if at all possible.

9mm
2010-08-02, 06:04 PM
I think I'll have time to judge again.

My Criteria
Originality: Does the submission use unexpected sources or material? Does it avoid over-used qualification methods? Does it use the secret ingredient in an unusual or clever way? This section is an amalgam of the build itself and how the build is presented.

Power: how well do I feel the build does what you say it can do? how does these abilities interact inside an actual game? I DO NOT look at the tier structure for base lines; but I do apply it's principles; so the lower you'd rank on the ToS tier system (where -2 is pun-pun), the higher your skill here will be.

Elegance: Does it avoid variant rules (not including published Alt Class Features like Racial Subs)? Do you avoid overly dipping classes like cleric 1 that are obviously for bonus feats/class abilities? Does your build subscribe to various power break points if it doesn't complete a PrC? Do you avoid using Taint and Dark Chaos shuffling? Other judges might, but I have no problem with a player drawing from a multitude or even ALL sources. As far as I'm concerned, if material in a source book improves your submission, use it, excluding certain material from books like Savage Species, Ghostwalk, Serpent Kingdoms, and the like, but that's mostly because of the material, not the source that it comes from. This section is the one most effected by your back story and build presentation, but the submission itself is still very important here. PLEASE CITE ALL SOURCES USED!

Use of Secret Ingredient: How important is the secret ingredient in this build? Would you refer to the build as being A <Secret Ingredient>, or are you just splashing the PrC in there? Does the flavor of the build fit that of the PrC? Do you use the PrC in a clever, synergistic or powerful way? Do the special abilities of the secret ingredient augement or are augemented by other abilities in the build? If you didn't use all levels of the secret ingredient (and you don't always have to), do you good reasoning why not, and did you exit at an acceptable power break point? This section is an amalgam of the build itself and how the build is presented.[/QUOTE]

Also note the following: I expect participants to explain IN DETAIL everything you feel your build can do, and failure to do so will result in a lot of 0-2s in all scores.

true_shinken
2010-08-02, 08:02 PM
This is my judging criteria:

Originality: Anything that surprises me will give you a high score here. However, I tend to be surprised by things that don't surprise other people and things that surprise other people tend to not surprise me. So... yeah. This is where my judgement comes "from the heart". Even if I'm surprised in a bad way, you might get points here.
Power: Is your build good in most fights? This is the core of the power category for me. If you are too specialized, you'll lose points. If you are good outside combat, expect a bonus here as well. If you're just good outside combat, expect something like a 1 or 1.5.
Elegance: If I look at just your class statblock, does it make sense from a fluff point of view? I care for fluff in prestige classes. If you use stuff from 'variation' sidebars, stuff from different settings or if you refluff something... expect a hit here. I like clean, simple builds. If your build is clean and simple, expect more points here.
Use of Secret Ingredient: Does the PrC fit the concept? Is it integral to the build's mechanics? Would another class in the build work better if leveled more than the secret ingredient? Basically, if your build screams "SECRET INGREDIENT" expect a 5 here. If it does not... well...

Ozymandias9
2010-08-02, 11:19 PM
I've updated my prior post with mu judging criteria.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-02, 11:36 PM
I've updated my prior post with mu judging criteria.

Thank you for using precedents from past competitions as a reference point. BTW, the character-turned-vestige was Noxius, the Immortal Plague, Akal Saris's entry in Iron Chef III (Cancer Mage).

Ozymandias9
2010-08-02, 11:43 PM
Thank you for using precedents from past competitions as a reference point. BTW, the character-turned-vestige was Noxius, the Immortal Plague, Akal Saris's entry in Iron Chef III (Cancer Mage).

Lol. So I'm citing him twice for that point? I was afraid of that. I also added an example from the MoM competition to that element.

Edit: As a note, I made a couple slight changes since I first posted the criteria. Any changes to the linked post after August 3rd, 5:09am GMT, however, should be cosmetic.


Elegance: If you use stuff from 'variation' sidebars, stuff from different settings or if you refluff something... expect a hit here. I like clean, simple builds. If your build is clean and simple, expect more points here.
Obviously, since I'm judging and not competing in this one, it's not going to directly effect me for this contest: but out of curiosity, is you preference here merely against sidebars (like the unarmed Swordsage adaptation) or does it include the in text adaptation sections (such as, say, making moving shadow magic mysteries to a smoke theme)?

Chineselegolas
2010-08-03, 06:16 AM
I'm competing again. Never even looked at Animal Lord before, always seemed too confusing.

Amphetryon
2010-08-03, 06:26 AM
Yaaaay, table!

Have I ever mentioned how much I loathe multiclassing penalties? :smallannoyed:Quoted for truth! :smallsigh:

ex cathedra
2010-08-03, 06:34 AM
Honestly, there are just too many viable options.

It's both fantastic and utterly infuriating.

BooNL
2010-08-03, 07:18 AM
Honestly, there are just too many viable options.

It's both fantastic and utterly infuriating.

Yeah, but there's a couple that just jump out, real no-brainer picks.

I'm trying to come up with creative ways to enter the class and while you can get in via a lot of means, most of the better ones are pretty obvious

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-03, 08:18 AM
Ok, got it, officially entering.

Natael
2010-08-03, 08:47 AM
I'll try to try it again. Got bit lost with some of the abiguity of the pyro's powers, but looking at this, seems straight forward, and interesting. Neat concept at least.

Arbitrarity
2010-08-03, 09:28 AM
Yeah, but there's a couple that just jump out, real no-brainer picks.

I'm trying to come up with creative ways to enter the class and while you can get in via a lot of means, most of the better ones are pretty obvious

Indeed. I'm wondering if I should skip the obvious synergy that I can see, and take something else.
Sure, it fits nicely, and evenly, but it's a bit too obvious, and I expect to see at least 2 entries with the same entry.

On the other hand, I don't really think about how to enter a class. I think "What does this class facilitate" "What unique abilities does it have" "How can I get the best use out of those features" "How can I make use of every available feature"

Amphetryon
2010-08-03, 09:39 AM
The real trick, to me, is finding 'what does this class do that no other PrC can do as well or better.'

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-03, 10:17 AM
The real trick, to me, is finding 'what does this class do that no other PrC can do as well or better.'
In the case of this one not sure there really is. My main goal is 'how to make it seem cooler and better than it actually is' :smallwink:

Keld Denar
2010-08-03, 10:26 AM
Anyone else hoping for an anthropomorphic were-bear bear totem bearbarian bearlord build? Seriously, after reading through bearlord, the only thoughts in my head were "MOAR BEARS THAN YOUR BUILD HAS ROOM FOR! SNAKE EYES!!!!!!!!!!"

Draz74
2010-08-03, 10:31 AM
The real trick, to me, is finding 'what does this class do that no ordinary Druid can do as well or better.'

Fixed that for you.

Arbitrarity
2010-08-03, 10:48 AM
That's an interesting way of thinking about it, and very true. Hmmm.

Adumbration
2010-08-03, 11:34 AM
Well, it does have full base attack bonus progression. But I think that's about it, really.

Joining as a contestant, although I doubt I'll be able to come up with a particularly high-power character.

Arbitrarity
2010-08-03, 11:35 AM
Eh. I'll take the thematic obvious build. It will be stylish and have synergy :smallbiggrin:

OMG PONIES
2010-08-03, 11:52 AM
Joining as competitor? This is my first time at this, as my builds tend to be a little...wonky. What do the master chefs think about fractional BAB and saves--is that a disallowed alternate rule?

Amphetryon
2010-08-03, 11:57 AM
Joining as competitor? This is my first time at this, as my builds tend to be a little...wonky. What do the master chefs think about fractional BAB and saves--is that a disallowed alternate rule?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a judge. Most of the past judges have said that fractional BAB/Saves fell under the 'alternate rules' clause that would mean a deduction in Elegance. I don't recall anything specific to fractionals listed thus far for this particular contest.

Keld Denar
2010-08-03, 12:07 PM
You can make a side note to include all of the possible alternate rules and their impacts, but I personally wouldn't include them in the bulk of the build.

For example, put in a spoiler:
Alternate Rules
If using Factional BAB and saves, BAB increases from 16 to 17, and base saves go from 12/2/4 to 9/3/6 for a more even distribution.
It probably wouldn't be wise to rely on it to qualify for PrCs though, as you'll probably get hit in the Elegance department.

Cieyrin
2010-08-03, 12:19 PM
Hmm, I have an idea that may be rather interesting and different, though power is gonna be highly variable, depending on the game type it's for. I think I'll chance it, though. Sign me up as a contestant so I can say I was on both sides of the Judge's card! :smallwink:

Draz74
2010-08-03, 12:22 PM
I probably shouldn't spend time on this contest, but I've had a build idea occur and it will drive me nuts if I don't enter it. So expect me as a contestant as well.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-03, 12:29 PM
Thanks for the input! I'm definitely cooking up something that I think is a little different. Multi-classing penalties are considered in judging, it seems? I'm assuming if your class distribution is placed to avoid penalties, that factors into Elegance?

dextercorvia
2010-08-03, 01:18 PM
My best idea so far reeks of 'obvious synergy', so I'm still fumbling around for a good concept.

Draz74
2010-08-03, 01:19 PM
Thanks for the input! I'm definitely cooking up something that I think is a little different. Multi-classing penalties are considered in judging, it seems? I'm assuming if your class distribution is placed to avoid penalties, that factors into Elegance?

I think some judges have publicly stated that they won't penalize for multiclassing penalties ever, because they hate those rules. Some judges may not agree, however.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-03, 01:23 PM
Joining as competitor? This is my first time at this, as my builds tend to be a little...wonky. What do the master chefs think about fractional BAB and saves--is that a disallowed alternate rule?

I believe that the prior ruling was that your build should not be reliant on fractional saves/bab or similar alternate rules systems.

Amphetryon
2010-08-04, 08:28 AM
So many different Animal Lords to choose from...

IdleMuse
2010-08-04, 10:12 AM
So many different Animal Lords to choose from...

Yeah, it's going to be interesting seeing which different Animal Lords see use. There doesn't seem to be a HUGE difference in power between most of them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-08-04, 11:08 AM
The only build I could think of off hand would have an Originality Score of about 1. Having said that, at least it wouldn't have a Druid base. Would also likely get an average Elegance score... bonus for staying with SRD + CAdv, but loose for alternative features.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-04, 11:48 AM
The only build I could think of off hand would have an Originality Score of about 1. Having said that, at least it wouldn't have a Druid base. Would also likely get an average Elegance score... bonus for staying with SRD + CAdv, but loose for alternative features.
Well, here's a question.

What if you used totally expected classes but used them in a very original way? Do you judges base your votes on the class or the use of it?

I've noticed how someone always uses Pact magic at least once a contest and seem to get a decent originality score no matter what the content is.

Cieyrin
2010-08-04, 12:07 PM
Well, here's a question.

What if you used totally expected classes but used them in a very original way? Do you judges base your votes on the class or the use of it?

I've noticed how someone always uses Pact magic at least once a contest and seem to get a decent originality score no matter what the content is.

Tome of Magic remains obscure to some people regardless of how often it crops up... >_>;;

Arbitrarity
2010-08-04, 12:09 PM
Indeed. Using MoI, ToB, or ToM seems to always net points in originality. However, noone ever uses truenamer, Soulborn, or Shadowcaster, probably because they lack synergy with most existing PrC's. Hmmm...

OMG PONIES
2010-08-04, 12:35 PM
So, am I allowed to submit TWO builds? I've got two that are pretty much neck-and-neck, and I can't decide which one to submit. Also, I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but what's a good rule of thumb when it comes to "excessive" multi-classing?

Amphetryon
2010-08-04, 12:49 PM
So, am I allowed to submit TWO builds? I've got two that are pretty much neck-and-neck, and I can't decide which one to submit. Also, I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but what's a good rule of thumb when it comes to "excessive" multi-classing?
Previous contest judges have made mention of the fact that entering multiple builds is allowed but might not be in your best interest, compared to focusing in on making one build as strong as possible in the time allotted.

Excessive multiclassing is very personal for each judge. I know arguskos would deduct points in the past if you had more than one single-level dip, or more than a couple two-level dips. Use your best judgment.

Keld Denar
2010-08-04, 12:50 PM
Um, I'm pretty sure you can only submit one entry. Try finding someone who is not competing or judging and sending them both entries to get an objective opinion on which is the stronger competator.

As far as excessive multiclassing, its strongly advised that you don't have a multiclass penalty, simply because ignoring multiclass penalties is technically an optional rule, even if most people do it. Also, blatent one level dips in unrelated classes will probably drop you some points docked. Dipping cloistered cleric1 as a fighter type for the 3 feats and TU will probably be unwise, while dipping 1 barb for pounce on a fighter type would be much more acceptable. On the other side, dipping cleric1 and then progressing it with a casting PrC is acceptable. Me personally, as a judge, I don't have a problem with 5-6 classes, especially if one of them is short like Exotic Weapon Master or some of the 5 level ones.

Again, this is only my preference for judging. Others might have differing opinions. Thats the give/take of having multiple judges.

true_shinken
2010-08-04, 02:27 PM
Obviously, since I'm judging and not competing in this one, it's not going to directly effect me for this contest: but out of curiosity, is you preference here merely against sidebars (like the unarmed Swordsage adaptation) or does it include the in text adaptation sections (such as, say, making moving shadow magic mysteries to a smoke theme)?
Sorry, I don't know what you meant. I'm not very familiar with shadow magic.

Akal Saris
2010-08-04, 03:00 PM
Very cool PrC choice IMO, and glad to see that BooNL is back in the game! :smallbiggrin:

Amphetryon
2010-08-04, 03:03 PM
Very cool PrC choice IMO, and glad to see that BooNL is back in the game! :smallbiggrin:
Will you be beating joining us this time around, Akal?

Akal Saris
2010-08-04, 03:28 PM
I haven't made up my mind yet. I'd love to do something fun with the PrC, but I haven't found any special mechanic that synergizes well besides grappling, and I have a hunch that at least one other contestant will hone in on that as well.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-04, 03:39 PM
So, am I allowed to submit TWO builds? I've got two that are pretty much neck-and-neck, and I can't decide which one to submit. Also, I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but what's a good rule of thumb when it comes to "excessive" multi-classing?

Multiclassing is going to vary by judge. If you have to ask, you're probably going to take at least some penalty in elegance for some judges. But remember that's one category of four for some judges: if you get, say, a boost in power or use of special ingredient from some interesting synergy, it may well be worth it.

On two builds, I believe the prior answer when it came up was a no. That would be my instinct as well. That is, however, a question better left to the chairman, so you may want to wait for Pinny.


Indeed. Using MoI, ToB, or ToM seems to always net points in originality. However, noone ever uses truenamer, Soulborn, or Shadowcaster, probably because they lack synergy with most existing PrC's. Hmmm...

Yeah, I'm personally not giving you points merely for using those any more than I would award points merely for using psionics. But if you find something particularly creative with them...


Sorry, I don't know what you meant. I'm not very familiar with shadow magic.

One of the recommended adaptations for the system is switching the theme from shaping the power of shadows to shaping smoke. More on topic however, I was asking if you were okay with the in-entry adaptation sections, as opposed to the sidebars.

true_shinken
2010-08-04, 04:51 PM
One of the recommended adaptations for the system is switching the theme from shaping the power of shadows to shaping smoke. More on topic however, I was asking if you were okay with the in-entry adaptation sections, as opposed to the sidebars.

It depends, mostly. If done only for flavour, I wouldn't mind. If done to qualify for something or to be more powerful, I would most definetly mind.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-04, 05:27 PM
So, am I allowed to submit TWO builds? I've got two that are pretty much neck-and-neck, and I can't decide which one to submit. Also, I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but what's a good rule of thumb when it comes to "excessive" multi-classing?

Amphetryon has it right on both counts. For an example of excessive multiclassing, see Torar, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8441629&postcount=108) from Iron Chef IV.

Keld Denar
2010-08-04, 07:25 PM
I fail to see how that counts...its 6. All of the entries in the GSA competition used 3-5, and 6 is just 1 more than 5. He has 2 Barbarian levels split, but thats probably for getting class skills to fall in the right order to get where he wants.

Melee classes tend to be topheavy and stack well. Fighter2/Barbarian2/Warblade2 is, in most cases, stronger than Fighter 6, Barbarian6, or Warblade6. Thats the blessing and curse of melee characters. Also, most hybred PrCs (like the above mentioned GSA) will have at LEAST 3, since you need X and Y to get into Z, and then something like N to progress X or Y after you take all the levels of Z you can get.

I don't think 6 classes is too many. I'd probably draw the line at 7 though, simply because by that time you'll probably have 9-10 levels of the secret ingredient meaning that you have 6 classes taking up the other 10-11 levels.

Thats my official stance as judge. What other judges do is their own priority.

Amphetryon
2010-08-04, 07:29 PM
:smallconfused: Am I reading Birdlord right? It requires Improved Flight, and grants the ability to fly part way through its progression? :smallconfused:

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-04, 07:49 PM
:smallconfused: Am I reading Birdlord right? It requires Improved Flight, and grants the ability to fly part way through its progression? :smallconfused:
Well, there are at least a couple or three semi-flying races or templates that allow it. Least make it worthwhile.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-04, 08:25 PM
I fail to see how that counts...its 6. All of the entries in the GSA competition used 3-5, and 6 is just 1 more than 5. He has 2 Barbarian levels split, but thats probably for getting class skills to fall in the right order to get where he wants.

Personally, I feel it's more about the fact that he used 4 different base classes, none of which went beyond 2 levels.

mjames
2010-08-04, 08:55 PM
Side question, away from book currently, but was wondering if the Animal Lord from ROTW was the same or different from the Complete Adventurer version? If they are different, can anyone give me a quick run down? (As in completely different, similar but DR is different, or the same)

Private-Prinny
2010-08-04, 09:10 PM
Side question, away from book currently, but was wondering if the Animal Lord from ROTW was the same or different from the Complete Adventurer version? If they are different, can anyone give me a quick run down? (As in completely different, similar but DR is different, or the same)

There is no Animal Lord class in Races of the Wild. AFAIK, the Complete Adventurer version is the only one.

true_shinken
2010-08-04, 09:16 PM
There is no Animal Lord class in Races of the Wild. AFAIK, the Complete Adventurer version is the only one.

I think he means the 3.0 something-something of the wild.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-04, 09:18 PM
I think he means the 3.0 something-something of the wild.

Masters of the Wild, maybe? Unfortunately, I got rid of a lot of my 3.0 material, so I can't check it.

true_shinken
2010-08-04, 09:20 PM
Masters of the Wild, maybe? Unfortunately, I got rid of a lot of my 3.0 material, so I can't check it.

Well, it can't be the exact same class, otherwise they wouln't have updated it, right? ^^

mjames
2010-08-04, 09:20 PM
Correction, sorry. I meant Masters of the Wild. Yes i know, it's 3.0, but i had it handy.

Don't be too hard on me, just had the thought while sitting here in my cubicle at work.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-04, 09:48 PM
*is wondering if anyone is going to be more than one type of Animal Lord in the same build*

Ozymandias9
2010-08-05, 03:26 AM
Correction, sorry. I meant Masters of the Wild. Yes i know, it's 3.0, but i had it handy.

Don't be too hard on me, just had the thought while sitting here in my cubicle at work.

They are significantly different. The 3.0 version is much better, sadly. 4th level casting, at will wild shape for the animal type, and the ability to grant a lesser version thereof to allies.

Amphetryon
2010-08-05, 10:51 AM
Any submissions yet, Prinny?

Private-Prinny
2010-08-05, 11:08 AM
Any submissions yet, Prinny?

Not yet, but I know what BooNL's concept is going to be, and I'm looking forward to the execution.

We've had 8 Iron Chef competitions of playable characters, including playable Entropomancers. Don't let me down on this one. :smalltongue:

OMG PONIES
2010-08-05, 11:32 AM
Mine's in the works, but is being refined for elegance.

IdleMuse
2010-08-05, 05:54 PM
Arg, I've just realised my build gets the same ability two different ways, really poor optimisation, also about -10000 elegance.

Dammit. I may not end up submitting.

Chineselegolas
2010-08-05, 09:33 PM
Probably will be submitting something later tonight. Haven't had time to really look through my ideas.

Woot Spitum
2010-08-06, 08:45 AM
I just got back from vacation, (and finally saw the results of the last competition), but I don't think I'll have time to write up a build this time around. I would be interested in judging, though, if there is room.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-06, 11:49 AM
Crunch is done, the fluff is all in my head, now it's just about getting it out. Prinny, should I send you a PM of the crunch now, or just wait until it's all together?

Amphetryon
2010-08-06, 01:10 PM
Crunch is done, the fluff is all in my head, now it's just about getting it out.

This is mostly true here, too.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-06, 01:11 PM
Crunch is done, the fluff is all in my head, now it's just about getting it out. Prinny, should I send you a PM of the crunch now, or just wait until it's all together?

I'd prefer it if all of the formatting is done before you submit your entry.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-06, 09:48 PM
Y'know... something occurred to me so went to look it up. The druid alternative shapeshift feature in the PHB II grants practically all this entire PrC does before you're even of level to qualify for it, and does it better.

Animal Lord officially blows chunks :smalltongue:

Chineselegolas
2010-08-06, 11:55 PM
This is mostly true here, too.
Me three. Not good at the fluff writing at the best of times and this one just refused to be put on to the screen.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-07, 09:09 AM
Y'know... something occurred to me so went to look it up. The druid alternative shapeshift feature in the PHB II grants practically all this entire PrC does before you're even of level to qualify for it, and does it better.

Animal Lord officially blows chunks :smalltongue:

Does it let you talk to animals with your mind?

Also, Prinny, are submissions due Monday morning or Monday night?

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-07, 09:18 AM
Does it let you talk to animals with your mind?
Nope, one ability it doesn't have. Not saying Animal Lord is completely replaced, but pretty darned close.


Also, Prinny, are submissions due Monday morning or Monday night?
Monday, 9 pm, EST is how he's been doing it.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-07, 12:04 PM
Animal Lord officially blows chunks :smalltongue:

Which is kind of the point. :smalltongue:

WinWin
2010-08-07, 12:23 PM
Does it let you talk to animals with your mind?


It grants telepathy with the chosen animal.

I should have an entry in tomorrow or the day after.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-07, 12:25 PM
Which is kind of the point. :smalltongue:
Yeah, but I think this one is so far the tops (or is it the bottoms?) :smallwink:

Still, have found a couple unique things to it to exploit.

Keld Denar
2010-08-07, 02:55 PM
VorpalTribble, you're Mr.T(ribble) avatar needs more bling. Make it happen.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-07, 08:37 PM
I'm not going for exploits, just a playable (optimized) character with a consistent theme and compelling backstory. I may be doing it wrong...

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-08, 12:42 AM
VorpalTribble, you're Mr.T(ribble) avatar needs more bling. Make it happen.
Whatchu talkin' bout, foo'?!

Ozymandias9
2010-08-08, 01:03 AM
Yeah, but I think this one is so far the tops (or is it the bottoms?) :smallwink:

Still, have found a couple unique things to it to exploit.

Have you forgotten Stonelord?

Amphetryon
2010-08-08, 11:51 AM
Have you forgotten Stonelord?

Sadly, I have not. :smalltongue:

WinWin
2010-08-08, 12:22 PM
yay. Half submitted! That table took longer than I would have liked. Worth it though, the presentation is a lot better.

edit. Done and done. Looking forward to see what else is on the menu.

Akal Saris
2010-08-08, 02:08 PM
Have you forgotten Stonelord?

My thoughts exactly.

Amphetryon
2010-08-09, 06:02 AM
Character submitted.

dextercorvia
2010-08-09, 08:11 AM
Not me. I found a concept that fluff-wise blended well with AL, but as I built it, I realized that it would be mechanically better with 9-10 less levels of AL.

One of these days, Gadget, one of these days...

Amphetryon
2010-08-09, 08:49 AM
Not me. I found a concept that fluff-wise blended well with AL, but as I built it, I realized that it would be mechanically better with 9-10 less levels of AL.

It was rather difficult to overcome that particular issue...

OMG PONIES
2010-08-09, 08:53 AM
Tell me about it! I'm finalizing my submission, and I'm still thinking of so many better things I could take at each level of animal lord.

WinWin
2010-08-09, 03:02 PM
Builds are posted today right? I always experience math fail when trying to figure out time differences.

Arbitrarity
2010-08-09, 03:06 PM
Bleah. Dropping out. I stress too much over these, and can't create a decent backstory today.

Amphetryon
2010-08-09, 03:40 PM
Builds are posted today right? I always experience math fail when trying to figure out time differences.
Roughly 4.5 hours from this posting, unless Prinny chooses to delay or speed things up.

ex cathedra
2010-08-09, 05:07 PM
I'm dropping out, too. None of the builds I came up with did anything especially clever, and the only one that actually received notable benefit from the Animal Lord levels only needed 3, and could only take 6. Eh. Maybe next time.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-09, 05:12 PM
Y'all are depressing me. Fluff wise there is so much fun to be had with this :smallfrown:

OMG PONIES
2010-08-09, 05:23 PM
Character submitted. Prinny, let me know if I need to change anything. Nervously awaiting the start of judging.

Keld Denar
2010-08-09, 05:28 PM
Mwa hah hah hah haaaaaaaaaaa!!!!

I heard if you die in Iron Optimization, you die IRL...

All your soul are belong to judges(me)!

WinWin
2010-08-09, 05:35 PM
Thanks for the easier time translation.

I doubt my character would be regarded as powerful, but I did have fun coming up with a build. I just tried to make something I would use in a game and took the concept from there. I thought of Animal Lord as a specialist Ranger rather than a watered down Druid, so the features of Animal Lord were a gain...kinda. Had an easier time with this than Pyrokineticist.

Draz74
2010-08-09, 07:53 PM
Build submitted.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 07:56 PM
And now it's time for the Big Reveal! Please do not post until I give the word.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:26 PM
Those statues are doomed.
Bertram Urrni, NE Raptoran Scout 2/Cleric of Malar 1/Druid 3/Cancer Mage 4/Birdlord 10

“They think I’m just a pigeon? Handle pigeons with care.”

SOURCES
Player’s Handbook (skills, Great Fortitude feat, Toughness feat), Complete Adventurer (scout class, animal lord prestige class), Complete Warrior (Zen Archery feat), Races of the Wild (Raptoran race, Improved Flight feat), Races of the Dragon (Wing Expert feat), Book of Vile Darkness (Poison Immunity feat, cancer mage prestige class), Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (Malar religion fluff).

STR 8 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 14 WIS 18 CHA 10. Boost WIS with levels.

Bertran Urrni
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Scout 1|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|Concentration 2, Disable Device 2, Handle Animal 2, Heal 2, Hide 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Search 2, Spot 4, Survival 4|Toughness|Skirmish +1d6/+0, Trapfinding

2nd|Cleric 1|
+0|
+4|
+2|
+4|Concentration 3, Heal 3, Move Silently 5|-|Animal Domain, Strength Domain, Rebuke Undead x3, Spells

3rd|Scout 2|
+1|
+7|
+3|
+4|Concentration 3, Handle Animal 3, Hide 6, Listen 5, Move Silently 6, Spot 5, Survival 5|Great Fortitude|Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge

4th|Druid 1|
+1|
+9|
+3|
+6|Handle Animal 4, Listen 6, Move Silently 6.5, Spot 6, Survival 6|-|Wild Empathy, Spontaneous Casting (Summon Nature’s Ally), Nature Sense, Animal Companion (Eagle)

5th|Druid 2|
+2|
+10|
+3|
+7|Concentration 6, Listen 7, Move Silently 7, Spot 7, Survival 7|-|Woodland Stride

6th|Druid 3|
+3|
+10|
+4|
+7|Concentration 8, Knowledge (nature) 5, Listen 8, Spot 8, Survival 8|Poison Immunity (large scorpion poison)|Trackless Step

7th|Cancer Mage 1|
+3|
+12|
+6|
+7|Concentration 9, Handle Animal 5, Hide 7, Listen 9, Move Silently 8, Spot 9|-|Sneak Attack +1d6, Disease Host (Warp Touch)

8th|Cancer Mage 2|
+4|
+13|
+7|
+8|Concentration 10, Handle Animal 6, Hide 8, Listen 10, Move Silently 11, Spot 10|-|Contagion, Cancerous Companion, Blindsight 30’

9th|Cancer Mage 3|
+5|
+13|
+7|
+9|Concentration11, Handle Animal 7, Hide 9, Move Silently 12|Improved Flight|Tatteredemalion, Poison, Quicken Spell 1/Day*

10th|Birdlord 1|
+6/+1|
+15|
+9|
+9|Hide 10, Listen 11, Move Silently 13, Spot 11, Survival 10|-|Animal Bond, Detect Birds, Wild Empathy

11th|Birdlord 2|
+7/+2|
+16|
+10|
+9|Hide 11, Listen 12, Move Silently 14, Spot 12. Survival 12|-|First Totem (+4 Spot), Low-light Vision

12th|Cancer Mage 4|
+8/+3|
+17|
+11|
+9|Hide 12, Listen 14, Move Silently 15, Spot 14, Survival 13|Zen Archery|Children of The Night, Evasion

13th|Birdlord 3|
+9/+4|
+17|
+11|
+10|Hide 13, Listen 15, Move Silently 16, Spot 15, Survival 15|-|Wild Aspect 1/Day

14th|Birdlord 4|
+10/+5|
+18|
+12|
+10|Hide 14, Listen 16, Move Silently 17, Spot 16, Survival 17|-|Speak with Animals

15th|Birdlord 5|
+11/+6/+1|
+18|
+12|
+11|Hide 15, Listen 17, Move Silently 18, Spot 18, Survival 18|Mobile Spellcasting|Summon Animal

16th|Birdlord 6|
+12/+7/+2|
+19|
+13|
+13|Hide 16, Listen 19, Move Silently 19, Spot 19, Survival 19|Flyby Attack|Second Totem, Wild Aspect 2/Day

17th|Birdlord 7|
+13/+8/+3|
+19|
+13|
+13|Hide 17, Listen 20, Move Silently 20, Spot 20, Survival 20|-|Animal Growth

18th|Birdlord 8|
+14/+9/+4|
+20|
+14|
+13|Hide 18, Listen 21, Move Silently 21, Spot 21, Survival 21|Wing Expert|Animal Telepathy

19th|Birdlord 9|
+15/+10/+5|
+20|
+14|
+14|Hide 19. Listen 22, Move Silently 22, Spot 22, Survival 22|-|Wild Aspect 3/Day

20th|Birdlord 10|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+21|
+15|
+16|Hide 20, Listen 23, Move Silently 23, Spot 23, Survival 23|-|Third Totem[/table]*Quicken Spell obtained virtually through Cancerous Companion’s ability
Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|3+1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|3+1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|3+1//3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|3+1//4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|3+1//4|//2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]Key: Cleric Spells//Druid Spells

So, you want to know about me? Careful what you wish for there, pal. All right, fine, I’ve got some time to kill. What is it you want to know? How I got started down this path, and how I ended up as the wondrous being you see before you today, I suspect. Grab a snack; this could take a while.

When I first left the nest I had a real explorer’s spirit. I had what my parents called a smattering of knowledge, rather than any sort of real direction toward a future. I was trained to be a scout, but I’m a Raptoran, so an outdoorsy sort of scout, you know? I had only a passing knowledge of how to search out traps or deactivate all those nasty surprises enterprising folks put on their treasure chests as deterrents. I was even nice enough to tell that very thing to the first boss to hire me on a treasure hunt, but do you think she listened? Nah, she just sent the freak with the feathers ahead to make sure everything was hunky dory for the flight-impaired. Naturally, I missed a needle on a lock and got pricked with it. It made me feel weaker than a hatchling, and that tavern wench of a boss told the others I was good as dead and should be left there. I thought I was going to die, truth to tell.

At first level, Bertram is a recon and nature focused skirmisher. With Toughness and a decent CON, he takes a bit more of a beating than most in his role, while the high WIS shores up his low Will save. His basic role in a party is just to scout ahead, get a feel for the lay of the land, and report back so the group can be prepared. His skirmish ability largely makes up for his low STR to let him handle surprises while he’s apart from the group.
Lucky for me, there was a cleric of Malar trailing along behind us. He never did explain why someone whose god teaches “survival of the fittest” chose to drag my sorry backside to the safety of his clergy, but I’m not going to complain that he decided to do just that, even if I don’t see the point. He told me that it looked like I’d been hit with the venom from a large scorpion. I was grateful enough to join up with the church of Malar for a while, if you can believe that. I can’t say I really took to it so well, though. They were always trying to get me to “spread the word of Malar to the masses,” whatever that meant. It was just too much hassle dealing with all those needy hangers-on for my taste. Before long, I was back working at scouting. I got a little quicker, and a whole lot hardier, thanks to my time with those priests and then continuing to find work as a scout, but not hardy enough. That second stint as a scout saw me come down with filth fever. Once I recovered, I decided that was just about enough as a traditional scout for me. I figured any more time spent as a scout and I’d end up spewing out a kidney or something. Not my style, you know?

So, I figured maybe those nature boys and girls who worked as Malarites were on to something. It was just all the proselytizing that wasn’t for me. Solitary practitioner was more my speed, and meant I wasn’t going to have any other land-bound types expecting me to do their bidding. Druid seemed just about my speed. It got me Goldy, too. She’s the eagle I keep as a companion. The wingless types around the Nelanther Isles started to treat me as a bit of a pariah around this point, between the stories about me being poisoned and the obvious results of filth fever. I figured, if they thought they needed to avoid me, the least I could do was look to make it worth their while.

At 5th level, Bertram plays similarly to a ranger of his level with bad combat skills, minor spellcasting abilities and an eagle animal companion. He and the eagle combine to cover a ton of ground when doing recon work for the party because of their ability to fly off in different directions at once. Being unimpeded by difficult terrain means he doesn’t need to stay in the air to stay mobile. Thrice daily Turn Undead and the ability to speak with animals add to that recon ability to provide reasons why a group would put up with his BAB lagging behind the typical expectations for his role if he’s emulating a ranger for the party. Great Fortitude at 3rd level along with Battle Fortitude gives him a Fort save that dwarves envy, and a minor boost to initiative that his average DEX can’t provide.
I kept going with the druid path a bit longer so I could call on elementals when it came to that. I didn’t mind being able to overcome these skinny little toothpick arms of mine for a few minutes a day or further improve my intuition, either. Ever since I’d first found out that the poison on that needle was large scorpion venom, I’d purchased small amounts of it when I could, building up a tolerance until I was immune. Once stung, twice shy, you could say. Then, I was ready to teach those people who thought my job was to get sick and die for them a lesson.

I became a cancer mage. I spent enough time hanging around the sewers and back alleys and other haunts of the unwashed and unwanted that I picked up better ambush skills, better weapons skills, and warp touch. I grew an extra eye and developed scales that made my skin tougher. The extra eye and scales meant I had to procure a hat of disguise, but I called it the cost of doing business. Before long, the hate and resentment over being so regularly thrown toward destruction so someone else could benefit congealed into a cancer at the pit of my stomach. It gave me a new view on the world, let me tell you. The next thing I knew, the cancer in my gut was communicating with me. More than that, it was helping me, making the limited spells I had more quickly cast. To my delight, I soon found my very touch poisonous to those I wished to harm, and felt myself armored in the tattered rags my position as pariah pressed upon my person.
Having been spurned by the society of the land-walkers – and having spurned their society, in turn – I sought companionship amongst Goldy’s brethren, the denizens of the skies. I strengthened my bond with my feathered friends, and learned to detect them, almost as if by magic.

Bertram finally gets in to Birdlord at 10th level. Qualifying for Cancer Mage without flaws, and using the most currently printed version of the Improved Flight feat (Races of the Wild) cut down on the speed with which he could do so. Using the aforementioned better weapons skills, Bertram starts most combat encounters at these levels at range, firing large scorpion envenomed arrows from a +1 collision footbow for an average of +11 damage (on top of the weapon’s base), then closing in to infect his targets with disease. He has just enough spells to continue to fulfill a secondary role as a summoner, and has continued to emphasize the skills most useful to recon work. He’s now getting a fairly solid +20 or so to spot checks, depending on magic, and the animal bond shores up the limited ranks spent in handle animal. His contagion ability operates at a respectable 19 Fort DC, before counting any investments in a WIS boosting item which he most assuredly would seek by now. Cancer mage has more ridiculously powerful disease options than warp touch, but those are generally better discussed in the realm of TO than in a practical build.
I stayed with the ways of the birds for a bit, as this path made me a more dangerous marksman, before succumbing once more to the lure of the cancer mage’s power. With it, I harnessed the bats, the rats, and the spiders, giving myself access to all those places the flightless seem to think of as their own. Often I would infect them myself, before unleashing them on those people who saw me as nothing more than a pawn to be pushed forward to die on their grand chess board. The voice of the cancer in my core kept me centered and granted me extraordinary abilities to avoid harm. By finding my center, I also became a much more skilled archer. I was done lurking in back alleys and cloaking myself in the castoff rags of a society that didn’t want me, though. I was ready to throw myself, and all my new allies, down the throats of those who abandoned me to die in their world. I doubled up on my abilities to speak with my avian allies, so they could better understand the role they needed to play in my revenge.

At these levels, Bertram becomes a SAD terror, as zen archery lets him derive most of his combat and non-combat powers from his high Wisdom modifier. Although the chart does not show it in the numbers, Bertram should have a WIS-boosting item of +6 by 15th level. Any further than four levels along the path of cancer mage would cost a point of BAB and, consequently, a vital 4th attack, so he gets out for good after obtaining the children of the night and evasion abilities. Mobile spellcasting is extremely useful to him, even with only low-level spells, because of the premium he places on mobility. Unfortunately, the updated improved flight feat’s wording from Races of the Wild makes the wild aspect of Birdlord completely superfluous. Because Bertram has the animal domain ability, he can now speak with his birds twice a day. Typical tactics at this level include infecting the ravens, bats, spiders, and rats he summons in fairly high numbers to attack his enemies, and sneaking ahead to spread disease in enemy camps while on recon duty.
With my army of flying, crawling friends, I waged guerilla war on everyone who marginalized me. I learned to minimize the dangers of a counterattack while swooping in to share the gift of warp touch with them. I made my bird friends grow, so they could instill terror and wreak more havoc on the landlocked losers who laughed and leered at me. I learned their thoughts so well that I could send my own wishes to them without a spoken word. The flightless fools became frazzled by my use of all three dimensions in combat and by my intelligent use of my wings. As I became fully aware of the world and my place in it, the numbers of those who could find the will and the way to stand against me and my avian allies dwindled and disappeared.

By the end, Bertram is unleashing four attacks a round from overhead with envenomed, infected arrows and a flight of birds and bats to cause pain, confusion, and disease. His spot check, hovering around +42, makes staying out of his sight extraordinarily difficult without using TO cheese. Although designed to function at range, Bertram is too dangerous for most enemies to consider approaching for melee or a grapple, with both the poison and contagion spells transmitted through his touch, and his known use of scorpion venom and the warp touch disease. His mobility options and perception abilities make him an ideal scout, his cleric and druid levels give him some ability to restore his own health if threatened, and anyone that can withstand his arrow barrage still has to deal with his animal companion and summoned flying hordes.
EQUIPMENT AND EXTRAS:

Most of the vital equipment is already mentioned. Bertram cannot craft poison himself, other than the spell-like ability he gets. Large scorpion venom is, fortunately, relatively cheap, so he should keep a good supply from the moment he develops an immunity, if not before. His rags provide armor thanks to cancer mage, enchanted to suit his needs. Options that reduce the Fort saves of his enemies should be favored, in addition to the obvious fortification choice. The collision enhancement for weapons, from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, is in the SRD. Pair it with a toxic or virulent enhancement if available to synergize with the abilities Bertram already excels in. If allowed access to Unearthed Arcana and Libris Mortis, grab a pile of nightsticks, shuffle Great Fortitude and Poison Immunity to 1st level with flaws, and get the extend/persist/nightstick trifecta underway, even if it’s only with 1st level spells.

At higher levels, invest in scrolls and rods and similar for higher-level spells on the Cleric/Druid lists, for those times when hitting something really hard, infecting them, or trying to poison them are all bad plans.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:27 PM
Rule #1 of being Evil: Don't turn into a snake. It never helps.
Sway
Yuan Ti Celebrant

Background
The Yuan Ti Althass was hatched in a household beneath a bustling metropolis. Like many Purebloods, she was conditioned from birth for sevice to the Abominations, Anaethema and the Sepent God, Mershaulk. The majority of her youth was spent engaging in the various rites, rituals and hedonistic revelry of the Yuan Ti undeculture. As she matured, the was trained as an acolyte and expected to assist in the infiltration of the city above.

Like many of her kind, Althass rebelled against the expectations placed upon her. She had no great desire to enslave or corrupt the humans in the city above, she simply viewed them as an entertaining diversion. She cared not for the various ceremonies dedicated to Mershaulk, though she did have a great love and empathy for serpents. While her apathy and self indulgence was tolerated for a time, Althass found herself at odds with the elders of her household.

Althass was thrown into a sacrificial pit as an example to the other Purebloods. Such an honour was usually reserved for kidnapped demi-humans, to provide entertainment and sustenance for the Anaethema that resided below. To the surprise of the High Priest, Althass not only survived the fall, but crawled out of the pit a week after she had been offered up to the Demonic Yuan Ti. She had been altered somehow by contact with the Anaethema, quieter and seeming to possess an indefinable craving or hunger. Shocked that their offering had been returned, the Yuan Ti elders allowed Althass to live.

Chastised by her experience, Althass returned to her duties with a renewed dilligence, though her enthusiasm was somewhat lacking. She assisted the Yuan Ti criminal syndicate, assisting them with smuggling, kidnappings and extortion. Sometimes she acted as a spy, a honeypot, an assassin or enforcer. Often she was detached in carrying out these duties, even whilst performing the most horrific of acts. Her only joys seemed to be dancing and the company of serpents.

She can often be found dancing in a seedy tavern, luring in patrons for the predation of other Yuan Ti. Quite often she will perform with a snake draped over her. To the few regular patrons that frequent the establishment, she is known simply as Sway. The few city guards and constablery that have attempted to drive out the criminal influence in the city have simply disappeared, though rumours persist that a powerful agent of the Snake God lurks somewhere in the back alleys of the trade district.

Appearence and Roleplaying.
Sway looks more like a lady of the evening than a warrior. Her slight frame and soft skin is more provocative than threatening. She goes to great lengths to enhance this image, meticulously applying perfumes and cosmetics, dressing in revealing clothing and acting ignorant and slightly confused. Even when she prepares for combat, she wears little more than fine silks, jewlery and a skimpy chainmail bikini.

Sway does not bother with intimidation. She uses her natural charm in order to get in close to a target before striking. Typically, she allows others to do the talking while she casually dances in the background, often with a serpent draped over her. If she can avoid combat, she will do so, relying on drugs, poison or seduction instead. Many of her foes though her to be little more than a brainwashed slave or doped-up cultist, only to be overwhelmed by her transformation from dispassionate performer to enthusiastic killer.

Build Sweet Spot
This is difficult to judge. I would say that around ECL 12 the character has a decent array of options. In a city based campaign, Sway might make a decent melee build, obviously working well with Rogues and similar character types. Her disinfranchised nature would make her less likely to betray her companions to the Yuan Ti. Overall, a subversion of the strong, silent warrior archtype and an interesting variation of a nature-themed class.

Attributes and Level Progression
32 point buy

Str:10 Dex:16 Con:16 Int:12 Wis:8 Cha:14

Final Scores with ability adjustments and racial bonus at ECL 20 (enhancement bonus)

Str:10 Dex:26 (32) Con:20 Int:14 Wis:8 Cha:22 (28)

Sway
{table=head]Effective Level|Class|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

3rd|Monstrous Humanoid|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|(16) CC Escape Artist 1 rank, CC Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 4 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 2 ranks, Knowledge (Nature) 2 ranks, CC Perform (Dance) 1 rank, CC Sleight of Hand 1 rank; Speak Language Yuan Ti, Common, Abyssal, Draconic |Weapon Finesse, Alertness, Blind Fight|Yuan Ti Racial

4th|Monstrous Humanoid|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|(4) CC Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Knowledge (Nature) 1 rank |-|-

5th|Monstrous Humanoid|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|(4) CC Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Knowledge (Nature) 1 rank |Combat Reflexes|-

6th|Monstrous Humanoid|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|(4) Disguise 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, CC Sleight of Hand 1 rank |-|-

7th|Bard|
+4|
+4|
+6|
+3|(8) Craft (Alchemy) 1 rank, Craft (Poison) 1 rank, Escape Artist 2 ranks, CC Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Perform (Dance) 1 rank |-|Bardic Music (Fascinate, Countersong), Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Animal Companion

8th|Bard|
+5|
+4|
+7|
+5|(8) Craft (Poison) 1 rank, Escape Artist 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Perform (Dance) 2 ranks, Sleight of Hand 1 rank, Use magic Device 1 rank|EWP (Spiked Chain)|-

9th|Snake Lord|
+6|
+6|
+9|
+5|(6) Hide 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, CC Perform (Dance) 2 ranks|-|Animal Bond, Detect Animals, Wild Empathy

10th|Snake Lord|
+7|
+7|
+10|
+5|(6) Escape Artist 1 rank, Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Perform (Dance) 1 rank|-|First Totem, Low Light Vision

11th|Snake Lord|
+8|
+7|
+10|
+6|Skills (6) Escape Artist 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, CC Perform (Dance) 1 rank, CC Sleight of Hand 1 rank|Weapon Focus (Bite) |Wild Aspect 1/day

12th|Soul Eater|
+9|
+9|
+12|
+8|(6) Hide 1 rank, Listen 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, CC Perform (Dance) 1 rank, Spot 1 rank|-|Energy Drain

11th|LA Reduction|
+9|
+9|
+12|
+8|-|-|-

12th|Snake Lord|
+10|
+10|
+13|
+8|(6) Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, CC Perform (Dance) 1 rank, CC Sleight of Hand 1 rank|-|Speak With Animals

13th|Cloaked Dancer|
+10|
+10|
+15|
+8|(8) Bluff 2 ranks, Craft (Poison) 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Perform (Dance) 2 ranks, Tumble 1 rank|Life Drain|Enchanting Dance

14th|Snake Lord|
+11|
+10|
+15|
+8|(6) Escape Artist 1 rank, Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Listen 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Spot 1 rank|-|Summon Animal

13th|LA Reduction|
+11|
+10|
+15|
+8|-|-|-

14th|Cloaked Dancer|
+12|
+10|
+16|
+8|(8) Bluff 2 ranks, Craft (alchemy) 1 rank, Craft (Poison) 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Perform (Dance) 1 rank, Tumble 1 rank |-|Surprise Strike

15th|Snake Lord|
+13|
+11|
+17|
+9|(6) Escape Artist 1 rank, Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Listen 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Spot 1 rank|Robilars Gambit|Second Totem, Wild Aspect 2/day

16th|Snake Lord|
+14|
+11|
+17|
+9|(6) Escape Artist 1 rank, Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Listen 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Spot 1 rank|-|Animal Growth

17th|Snake Lord|
+15|
+12|
+18|
+9|(6) Escape Artist 1 rank, Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Listen 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Spot 1 rank|-|Animal Telepathy

18th|Snake Lord|
+16|
+12|
+18|
+10|(6) Escape Artist 1 rank, Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Listen 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Spot 1 rank|Defensive Sweep|Wild Aspect 3/day

19th|Snake Lord|
+17|
+13|
+19|
+10|(6) Escape Artist 1 rank, Handle Animal 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Listen 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Spot 1 rank|-|Third Totem

20th|Cloaked Dancer|
+18|
+14|
+20|
+11|8) Balance 1 rank, Craft (alchemy) 1 rank, Craft (posion) 1 rank, Hide 1 rank, Move Silently 1 rank, Perform (Dance) 2 ranks, Tumble 1 rank|-|Enchanting Dance[/table]



Build Explaination

Yuan Ti Pureblood. MM and XPH

4 monstrous humanoid levels; Simple Weapons proficiency, Scimitar and Longbow proficiency, Light Armour and Shield proficiency. Alterness and Blind Fight as bonus feats, in addition to normal feat progresion.

Power Resistance 10 +HD

Alternate Form (ps); Tiny to Large Viper, as Polymorph Self sans healing, retains type (monstrous humanoid).

Natural Armour +1

Darkvision 60 feet

Class Skills: Concentration, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge (all), Listen, Spot. Speak Language Yuan Ti and Common

Psi Like Abilities; Manifester Level 3. At Will: Detect Hostile Intent, Psionic Charm (animals, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids; DC 12 + Cha), Psionic Daze ( 6HD; DC 11 + Cha). 1/Day: Aversion (DC 12 + Cha), Concealing Amorpha, Darkness, Entangling Ectoplasm (large creature).

Commentary. Diverse racial abilities. Snakelord complements some of these nicely. I'll break some of these down for reference in order to better explain how they will be utilised.

Alternate Form. Viper forms are not that great for combat, but they have exellent stealth and movement options. Listed swim and climb speed, they can also take a 10 on skill checks required for these skills. They have a + 4 racial bonus to hide, spot and listen, a +8 to balance, climb and swim. A tiny viper has an additional +8 to hide checks due to size. They have the scent quality, which allows for some tracking and detection options. Finally, they have a poisonous bite. The poison is not great, but deals constitution damage and can easily be harvested for crafting. Obviously great for tracking foes or setting up an ambush.

Psi Like Abilities. An augmented, versatile Charm effect at will! Yuan Ti are great at making friends, why do they have such a bad rep? Psionic Daze is okay for an at will, but does not scale well. Detect Hostile Intent...At will. This effect is always on. An hours per level buff that gives the general location of nearby intelligent foes. It also prevents surprise and being caught flat footed by foes succeptable to mind effecting powers. Aversion is a long duration debuff, similar to fear but with a variable trigger. Darkness is like the spell of the same name, a decent option when coupled with blind-fighting and scent. Concealing amorpha is great for defence or stealth. Entangling Ectoplasm is a no save, no SR power that is the equivelant of a net. It does not offer an escape clause and can effect opponents up to large size.

Despite level adjustment, Yuan Ti offers a decent range of roleplaying, combat and stealth abilities. Some of it's powers do not scale very well...Though there may be some room for a small augmentation of Psionic abilities through items like power stones or the Wild Talent feat. As their Psi-Likes function like Powers without cost, they may also be able to be augmented with power points up to the normal manifester level cap. Run it by your DM.

Bard. Alternate Class Features. (UA)

The Nature/Fey bard ACF's were chosen for this build. Bardic Knowledge, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competance, Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics are lost. Druidic Animal Companion, Nature Sense, Resist Natures Lure (4th level) and Wild Empathy are gained.

The changes make me think of the original 1e Bard, with the Druidic flavour of the ACF's. These subtle changes mesh thematically with the Yuan Ti and Snakelord concept, creating a subtle manipulator than can be dangerous when provoked. A few spells are taken to benefit combats and roleplaying, scources are referenced in the list.

Spells Known.
0: Minor Disguise (SC), Songbird (SC), Lullaby, Presdigitation, Detect Magic, Read Magic
1: Critical Strike (SC), Distract (SC), Shock and Awe (SC)

Snake Lord. (CAdv)

Snake Bond (ex). Yuan Ti being great snake handlers is almost intuitive, now Sway has the class features to back this up. The handle animal bonus aids in training snakes, adding templates and milking them for venom. Wild Empathy stacks with the bardic ability and has synergy with the natural charisma of the Yuan Ti and Charisma bonus the Snakelord receives as it's capstone. Additionally, the Bardic Animal Companion class feature is advanced.
Wild Empathy (ex). Considering that Sway can attempt Charm animals and magical beasts at will, this is a fantastic ability. Animal diplomancy is a great method of ensuring pets are responsive to training. It can also be an effective method of obtaining guardians, mounts and allies. An excellent method of obtaining raw materials for poison, or pure venom for distillation.
Speak With Snakes (sp). A limited version of the 1st level druid spell. Combined with Charm and Wild Empathy, a service is more likely to be solicited from the targeted snake. It could also be a great method of obtaining specific information from planted spies or guards.
Summon Snake (sp). A limited version of a summoning spell. Not fantastic, though it has it's uses. Summoned snakes can at the very least have their venom harvested. They can also provide flanking, cover or distract opponents, especially the larger ones. A giant constrictor is a fantastic grappler, as are the huge vipers (though it would be against their normal instincts). Against a climbing, balancing or swimming opponent, summoned snakes can be moderately effective, as their natural abilities give them an advantage.
Snake Growth (sp). Great spell. As a swift action, it can be coupled with the use of Summon Animal in order to bring Gargantuan Snakes to the field. Not only can this be a great opening move in a combat, it also has the potential to alter the terrain in an enclosed area. As poison DC is Constitution based, the bite attacks and venom harvested from a Gargantuan Viper will be deadlier. This power can also benefit Sway's Sailsnake companion and trained, Warbred serpent guards.
Snake Telepathy (su). The sight range clause on this ability can be problematic, as snakes can be sneaky. However, this ability allows for more complex commands and concepts to be communicated to snake allies silently. Great for gathering information (even though a snakes intelligence is limited). Summoned and trained pets can have tricks keyed off telepathy as well as verbal or visual commands. Even friendly, but untrained snakes can be easily directed once their attitude is shifted to helpful.
Low Light Vision (ex). A subtle and often overlooked perception ability. It synergises well with Darkvision and the Blind Fight feat.
First Totem. Snakes get no racial escape artist bonus? The writers obviously have never handled an angry Carpet Snake or seen one in action. This class feaure rectifies that discrepancy. In could be of use in escaping incarceration, moving though confined areas (even in relation to a tiny viper form) or esacping a grappling monster that outclasses Sway.
Second Totem. Who does not like Improved Initiative? Coupled with abilities that help Sway avoid surprise and being caught flat footed, this feat increases the chance that Sway will strike first in an encounter. A great way to complement the ambush and skirmish tactics that Sawy relies on.
Third Totem. An untyped charisma bonus is a subtle capstone ability. Sway has many powers and effects keyed off charisma, so be sure that this ability does not go to waste.
Wild Aspect. Awesome ability. A natural bite attack compliments melee. It can even be activated in an alternate form. Stacking poisonous bite attacks and other debilitations with melee is part of this builds combat efficacy. Harvesting small amounts of venom from this ability during downtime could allow for crafting potent poison.
Soul Eater. BoVD and LM
Commentary. Synergises well with this build. Yuan Ti are called out in the description of this PrC. Negative levels make poison and the performances of Cloaked Dancer more effective . Additionally, the temporary HP gained from inflicting negative levels contribute to survival. More natural attacks would benefit Soul Eater, but this is not a Soul Eater optimization contest. The bite attacks of Wild Aspect and Alternate form are enhanced by this class.

The Life Drain feat from Libris Mortis enhances the damge inflicted and temporary hit points gained from Energy Drain. 5 + Charisma modifier. Regardless of how the Soul Eater's Energy Drain is interpreted, the ability of a Necrotic Focus (MIC) weapon is clear.

Cloaked Dancer. CS
Commentary. I was looking for a PrC that provided a few thematic abilities, something befitting a character that called on the Snake Totem. Cloaked Dancer seemed appropriate. It has the ability to mesmerise foes via a hypnotic dance, quite like the ability of some Cobras to mesmerise small animals. The mix of Charm options and Surprise Strike befits the theme of this character.

Animal Companion.
Warbred Sailsnake. MM IV, Druid level -3.
Not the greatest animal companion. It does suit the theme of Snakelord though. A flying, hooded cobra that can spray a blinding venom. The best feature of this companion is it's Venom Spray ability, a 20 foot cone that blinds creatures. It is not called out specifically as a poison and even a successful fortitude save only halves the duration of it's blinding effect.

At higher levels, the companion gains the benefit of the Hover feat and the Spit Venom feat from Serpent Kingdoms. Gear for the companion includes the Yuan Ti Poison Fangs graft from Serpent Kingdoms/Fiend Folio. This allows it's natural bite and Spit Venom feat to benefit from poisons with every attack.
This companion is not great in melee. It typically makes use of Flyby attack to Spray or Spit venom at foes. Only once a foe has been clearly weakened will it move into melee. Should character be accidently caught in the Venom Spray, the Blind Fight feat will help negate the penalty.

Poison.
This build utilises a lot of poison. One of the interesting things about poison is that a creature is immune to it's own venom. The Drow of the Underdark Sourcebook has rules for distilling the natural venom of trained creatures. As Sway can call on the aid of snakes, she has access to their venom as well as her own. She likely has a supply of her Alternate viper Form poison, her Poison Fang venom and her Wild Aspect Poison. Distilling these poisons for use on weapons is a relatively simple task. In addition, she can possibly access Yuan Ti poisons (serpent kingdoms), Positoxins (libris mortis) and many other types of poisons from BoVD, Complete Adventurer, DungeonScape and Complete Scoundrel. Some of these toxins can effect creatures immune to standard poisons. To save space, the stat spread details only distilled natural venom.

Magical Items (WBL 760k)
Manual of Quickness in Action +4 (110 k), Tome of Leadership and Influence +4 (110k), Manual of Bodily Health +4 (110k), Cloak of Charisma +6 (36k), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36k), (Assassination (+1, Cityscape Web enhancement), Necrotic Focus (+3, Libris Mortis), Toxic (+1, DoTU), Virulent (+1, DoTU), Wounding (+2)/Undead Construct bane) +1 cold iron spiked chain (130,325), Gem of Psychic Poison (28k, BoVD), (Nimble (+1, MIC), Mobility (+1, MIC), Blur, (+1, MIC), Shadow (3750), Slick (3750), Silent Moves (3750)) +5 Mithril Chain Shirt (76,500), Burnoose of 1001 Thorns (3k, MIC), Circlet of persuasion (4500), Belt of Battle (MIC, 12k), Wyrmfang Amulet (MIC, 1350), Fanged Mask (MIC, 8300), 2 Yuan ti Poisoned Fang Grafts (16k, Savage Species), Great Reach Bracers (MIC, 2000), Boots of Striding and Springing (5500), Ring of Adamantine Touch (MIC, 6k), Ring of Mind Shielding (8k), +1 Longbow (2k), 10 Arrows of Biting (MIC, 5070), Hewards Handy Haversack (2k)

Feats and sources
Feats, Alertness (racial bonus), Blind Fight (racial bonus), Improved Initiative (Snakelord bonus), Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (bite), Life Drain (LM), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Robilars Gambit (PH2), Defensive Sweep (PH2)

Level Adjustment and LA Buyoff.

Hmmm. No XP cap this round? At effective level 12, character will spend 11 k xp and reduce LA. 3 levels later, 14k to remove LA completely.

Having been a DM for a level 1-25 campaign, I have noticed that a lower XP total is not that much of a disadvantage. In fact, lower level characters earn XP at a faster rate. This disparity is marked when facing high EL challenges. The major reason I submitted an ECL 20 build is because of WBL. In a campaign, this character would likely only be a few encounters behind the rest of the paty when they hit level 20. They would also have the majority of the gear befitting a level 20 character. Rather than submit a level 19 and a half character, I decided to submit a level 20. Penalise this build if you must, but realise that the 23k XP reduction would likely have been reduced to around 10k or less by level 20.

ECL 20 Statblock
Sway: Yuan Ti Pureblood Bard 2/Snakelord 10/ Soul Eater 1/ Cloaked Dancer 3; Medium monstrous humanoid (Psionic); HD 5d8+10d10+5d6 +100; 188 hp;Init +17; Spd 40ft; AC 28 (+7* dex, +2 natural, +9 armour), Touch 17, flat footed 21; BA +18; Grp +18; Attack +30/+25/+20/+15 melee Amphisbaena (Reach, 1d6+1 damage, +1 Con Damage, +1 Negative Level, + distilled Poison Fangs poison DC 26, 1d6 con/1d6 con ), +30 melee Bite (1d6, +1 Negative Level, + Poison Fangs poison DC 25, 1d6 con/1d6 con) or +30/+25/+20/+15 ranged +1 Longbow (1d8+1 20/x3 +Arrow of Biting); SA Bardic Music, Spells, Psi-Like Abilities, Spell-Like Abilities, Wild Aspect, Energy Drain, Enchanting Dance, Surprise Strike, Robilars Gambit, Defensive Sweep, Poison Fang Graft; SQ Nature Sense, Animal Companion, Wild Empathy, Alternate Form; AL NE; SV Fort +19, Ref +31, Will +10; Str:10 Dex:26 (32) Con:20 Int:14 Wis:8 Cha:22 (28)
Feats: Alertness, Blind Fight, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (bite), Life Drain, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Robilars Gambit, Defensive Sweep
Skills: Balance +12, Bluff +17, Craft (Alchemy) +5, Craft (Poison) +7, Diplomacy + 14, Disguise +13, Escape Artist +32, Handle Animal +24, Hide +39, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (Arcana) +4, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Listen +8, Move Silently +29, Perform (Dance) +27, Sleight of Hand +18, Spot +8, Survival +1, Tumble +15, Use Magic Device +13 ; Speak Language Common, Yuan Ti, Abyssal, Draconic
Combat Gear. Amphisbaena, Gem of Psychic Poison, Magical Chainmail Bikini, Burnoose of 1001 Thorns, Circlet of Persuasion, Belt of Battle, Wyrmfang Amulet, Fanged Mask, Great Reach Bracers, Boots of Striding and Springing, Ring of Adamantine Touch, Ring of Mind Shielding, +1 Longbow, 10 Arrows of Biting

Amphisbaena. Sway's +1 cold iron, Necrotic Focus, Assassination, Virulent, Toxic, Wounding Spiked Chain. She keeps it with her at all times. It is fitted with an Triple Weapon Alchemical Capsule retainer and ready to deliver a potent distilled venom. It has had a modified Permenant Image cast upon it to give it the appearence of it's namesake, a 2 headed snake. Poisons on this weapon effect 2 hits instead of one. Poisons delivered with this weapon inflict secondary damage in 5 rounds instead of 10. This weapon may deliver energy drain. This weapon deals +1d6 damage against foes denied their dex to AC. The wielder of this weapon does not risk accidently poisoning themselves when applying or using poison with this weapon.
Energy Drain. As normal, but deliverable via Amphisbaena. Additionally, 14 HP are lost instead of 5 and Sway gains 14 temporary hit points for every negative level she inflicts. The DC to remove negative levels inflicted by Sway is 24.
Poison Fang Graft. Bite poison. DC 20 + con. Stacks with Wild Aspect Poison.
Robilars Gambit and Defensive Sweep. Attacks on Sway are at +4 to hit and damage. An attacker within reach provokes an attack of opportunity. Opponents that begin their turn next to Sway provoke an Attack of Opportunity. Sway may take 12 attacks of opportunity per round.
Psychic Poison. Targeting Sway with a Divination or Mind Affecting Spell or Spell-Like Ability take 1d6 int damage. One minute later, they take 1d6 int damage.
Enchanting Dance. 3/day. Lasts for 8 rounds. DC 22 Will. Sway's Beguiling Dance dazes foes within 30 feet, save required every round. Additionally, their attitude improves by one step unless hostile. Her Wearying Dance fatigues opponents within 30 feet. Must be sustained as an action.
Surprise Strike. Full round action. Sustains Enchanting Dance and allows an attack. Foes effected by Enchanting Dance are considered Flat Footed and take +1d6 damage from a successful attack.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:28 PM
The first line says it all.
MORE BEAR THAN YOUR BUILD HAS ROOM FOR!


CG

Dwarf

Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Ranger 1/Deepwarden 2/Fist of the Forest 3/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 4/Bear Lord 5

Fistbear Bearfist
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Feats|Class Features
1st|Ranger 1|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Improved Unarmed Strike|Trapfinding, Favored Enemy (Orcs), Wild Empathy
2nd|Ranger 2|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0||Ranger bonus feat (Two Weapon Fighting)
3rd|Barbarian 1|
+3|
+5|
+3|
+0||Power Attack|Bear Totem bonus feat (Toughness)
4th|Barbarian 2|
+4|
+6|
+3|
+0|||Bear Totem bonus feat (Improved Grapple)
5th|Ranger 3|
+5|
+6|
+3|
+1||Ranger bonus feat (Endurance)
6th|Deepwarden 1|
+6|
+8|
+3|
+3|Extra Rage|Deepwarden bonus feat (Track), Trap Sense +1
7th|Deepwarden 2|
+7|
+11|
+3|
+4||Stone warden
8th|Fist of the Forest 1|
+8|
+13|
+5|
+4||AC bonus, Fast movement, feral trance 1/day, primal living, 1d8 unarmed damage
9th|Fist of the Forest 2|
+9|
+14|
+6|
+4|Steadfast Determination|Uncanny Dodge, untamed strike
10th|Fist of the Forest 3|
+10|
+14|
+6|
+5||Feral trance 2/day, scent, 1d10 unarmed damage
11th|Bear Warrior 1|
+11|
+16|
+6|
+5||Bear form (black)
12th|Warshaper 1|
+12|
+18|
+6|
+5|Snap Kick|Morphic immunities, morphic weapons
13th|Warshaper 2|
+13|
+19|
+6|
+5||Morphic body
14th|Warshaper 3|
+14|
+19|
+7|
+6||Morphic reach
15th|Warshaper 4|
+15|
+20|
+7|
+6|Reckless Rage|Morphic healing
16th|Bear Lord 1|
+16|
+22|
+9|
+6||Animal bond, detect animals, wild empathy
17th|Bear Lord 2|
+17|
+23|
+10|
+6||First totem, low light vision
18th|Bear Lord 3|
+18|
+23|
+10|
+7|Mad Foam Rager|Wild Aspect 1/day
19th|Bear Lord 4|
+19|
+24|
+11|
+7||Speak with animals
20th|Bear Lord 5|
+20|
+24|
+11|
+7||Summon Animals[/table]

Starting stats after racial adjustment (32 point buy):
STR 16 (Increase this one with level up points)
DEX 8
CON 18
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 6

Starting stats after racial adjustment (28 point buy):
STR 16 (Increase this one with level up points)
DEX 8
CON 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 6

Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
2: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Power Attack, Toughness
4: Improved Grapple
5: Endurance
6: Extra Rage
9: Steadfast Determination
12: Snap Kick
15: Reckless Rage
18: Mad Foam Rager

ACFs:
Barbarian: Bear Totem
Ranger: Trap Expert (Replaces Track with Trapfinding, gives Disable Device as a class skill)

Levels 1-5

Fistbear Bearfist grew up on the boarders of dwarven civilization, always on the hunt for enemies of dwarvenkind. From the depths of the Underdark to the wild planes above ground, he has traveled them all, thwarting the dastardly schemes of those who would lay low Moradin's children. He was taught the art of woodsmanship and unarmed combat by his father, who felt that it was not proper for a dwarf to be out of place in either the Stygian depths of the Underdark or a viscious bar room brawl. Fistbear Bearfist soon developed into an uncanny survivalist and a formidable warrior; the goblin tribes of the Kurest mountains still tell whispered tales of his raw anger and savage cunning around the campfire to this day. They say he ate the heart of a bear to gain its strength and courage; while this story cannot be confirmed, Fistbear would later say that he had greatly admired bears in his earlier days and chosen an alias based off of that fact.

Class abilities:
Ranger: Trapfinding, Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Favored Enemy (Orcs), Endurance
Barbarian: Rage, Toughness, Improved Grapple

Feats:
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
2: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Power Attack, Toughness
4: Improved Grapple
5: Endurance

Character design:
A skillful ranger who can Power Attack for damage and who has good HP. A competent beatstick for low levels. He gets Endurance, which is used to qualify for Steadfast Determination, Deepwarden, and Animal Lord, for free. Improved Grapple is also a decent bonus feat at this level.

Suggested items: Masterwork Dwarven Waraxe, light steel shield, and Anklets of Translocation

Levels 6-7

It was no surprise that, after defeating the orcish warlord Uzzog and extracting an oath from him to never set foot in the Sunken Isles and trouble the dwarvish colonies there ever again, the elite dwarven paramilitary group known as the Deepwardens took interest in Fistbear Bearfist. After much convincing, they managed to convince him to join their ranks, where Fistbear’s prowess in combat and survival secured a rapid promotion to the rank of Sargent. However, his undisciplined and often unorthodox methods put him at odds with his commanders. After four years of service, Fistbear declared that he had learned all he needed from the Deepwardens and set off to wander among nature once again, to protect dwarvenkind in his own way.

Class abilities:
Deepwarden: Track, Trap Sense, Stonewarden (CON modifier replaces DEX modifier to AC)

Feats:
6: Extra Rage (2 additional Rage attempts per day)

Character design:
Now we get to add our CON modifier to AC instead of our DEX, which means that Fistbear is so tough that he can dodge attacks. Not quite sure how that works, but I’m ok with it since the CON increase when raging neatly cancels out the AC penalty that incurs. Also, CON now factors into the will save due to Steadfast Determination. This synergizes quite well with the Deepwarden’s good will save progression.

Suggested equipment:

Magical Dwarven Waraxe, +2 items for Strength, Con, and saves.

Levels 8-10

After leaving the Deepwardens, Fistbear wound up facing off against his old enemy Uzzog, who was collecting orcs to invade the Dreamwell forest, the home of many gray elves dwelt. Fistbear made full use of the tricks that he had learned as a Deepwarden, tracking Uzzog through the wilderness to his war camp outside of Dreamwell and challenging him again to a duel to decide whether the invasion would take place. Ax met ax as the two warriors fought, but at the end of the day Fistbear stood victorious over the warchief and forced him to withdraw his forces. For his efforts, the Dreamwell elves rewarded him with an induction into the ranks of their protectors, the Fists of the Forest. Fistbear found that he fit in surprisingly well; many members, like himself, were wild souls and he soon became one with the group despite their racial differences.

Class abilities:
Fist of the Forest: AC bonus (CON modifier to AC as that of the Monk), fast movement (+10 feet to base speed), feral trance 2/day (+4 to DEX, +2 attack bonus on unarmed strikes, one bite attack per round during a full attack at highest BAB dealing 1d6+ STR modifier in damage) , primal living, Uncanny Dodge, untamed strike (unarmed strikes treated as magcial weapons), scent, 1d10 unarmed damage.

9: Steadfast Determination (Add CON modifier to will saves, does not fail a fortitude save on a natural 1)

Character design:
Now, in addition to Power Attack, unarmed combat becomes viable due to large damage dice and the extra attacks. Also, AC goes up another notch from another CON modifier to AC ability. Fistbear’s touch AC is pretty high by now.

Equipment suggestions:
The usual stat and save boosters of course, and perhaps Gloves of the Balanced Hand to allow for better Two Weapon Fighting as a transition to unarmed combat? This would allow for the use of the two handed Waraxe and unarmed strikes at the same time. I am assuming that magical gear does not get destroyed in a Feral Trance, or that it can be modified to allow the claws to grow safely.

Level 11-15

Fistbear greatly expanded his unarmed combat repertoire as a Fist of the Forest, but he still felt that there was more to learn even after achieving the rank of Grand Master. One day, while patrolling through the woods, he came across a mother bear protecting her cubs from a tendriculos. The plant creature was a fierce carnivore, but the bear unflinchingly stood her ground and savagely attacked the threat to her children. As Fistbear watched, he realized that there was still much to be learned from the bears that he had admired as a child. Fistbear sought out the druids of Dreamwell and asked each of them how he might turn into bears as they did; none knew, but one old elf mentioned that he had heard of an old orc barbarian who could turn into a bear as he raged, but it was unclear where the orc was now, or even if he was still alive. Fistbear, however, was not one to give up easily; while the elves might not have kept tabs on an orc warrior, he knew one who would: Warchief Uzzog.

Once again, Fistbear tracked down Uzzog, whose dominion was by now embroiled in a civil war as rival clans fought amongst themselves for power. Uzzog granted Fistbear an audience with him despite the troubling times and agreed to help find the warrior Fistbear was looking for, if the dwarf would help him in turn. Fistbear agreed and soon the two found themselves fighting side by side to force a united orcish empire. After the last renegade clan had surrendered to Uzzog, the warchief took Fistbear to a desolate mountain and revealed that the bear-warrior Fistbear sought was none other than Uzzog’s father, Ulman. If Fistbear was willing to learn, Uzzog could teach him from Ulman’s writings.

Ulmans insight on how to assume a bear’s form and make the fullest use of shapeshifting abilities were truly insightful, and Fistbear at last mastered the art of turning into a bear. He fought with all the ferocity of the wildlands, mauling his enemies with his bear hands.

Class abilities:
Bear Warrior: Turn into a black bear when raging, gaining +8 STR, +2 to DEX, and +4 to CON instead of the normal rage bonuses. the +2 to will saves is retained.
Warshaper: Morphic immunities, morphic weapons, morphic body, morphic reach, morphic healing

Feats:
12: Snap Kick
15: Reckless Rage (+2 STR, CON when raging for an additional -2 penalty to AC)

Character design:
Well, now you turn into a bear for great stat boosts. You can launch off a ton of unarmed and natural attacks, which you can Power Attack with for damage. If you are so inclined, grappling is also an option, what with the ability to give great bear hugs and all. Warshaper gives even more STR and CON along with one step higher natural weapon damage, fast healing, reach, and immunity to stunning and to critical hits.

Equipment suggestions:

An Amulet of Mighty Fists is now needed since your bear hands are the primary weapon. Boots of Speed will allow for extra attacks. An item of flying will let you join in aerial combat. An item of Freedom of Movement will hinder battlefield control spells.

Levels 16-20

Fistbear was soon known as the “Bear Lord” by his friends and enemies. He could instantly discern the location of the nearest bear within hundreds of feet, and even fought more like a bear when in his natural form. The dwarf was at one with the wild bears, who in turn accepted him as one of their own. Fistbear even found that he was able to converse with the animals and summon them to aid him should he need their assistance.

When the wild dwarf finally died of extreme old age, it was said that a procession of bears carried his body to his birthplace in the Underdark and laid him to rest in a forgotten cavern, so that he might truly become one with nature.

Character Abilities:
Bear Lord: Bear Bond, Detect Bears, Bear Empathy, First Totem (+4 on Intimidate), Low Light Vision, Wild Aspect 1/day, Speak with Bears 1/day, Summon Bears.

You also get to initiate grapples when you hit someone. Great thing we have Improved Grapple as a bonus feat from earlier.

Feats:
18: Mad Foam Rager (Can delay the effect of a single attack, spell, or ability used against him for one round as an immediate action)

Character design:

You’re basically the king of bears. You know where bears are, can talk to them, summon them, and even fight like one in your natural form.

Also, Mad Foam Rager lets you ignore any one thing while once per rage for a round Useul when people are slinging 9th level spells around.

Final Strength and Con score when throwing it down as a bear and going all out:

STR: 16 (base) + 5 (leveling up) + 5 (tome) + 6 (item) + 10 (Rage) +4 (Warshaper) = 46
Con: 18 (base) + 4 (tome)+ 6 (item) + 6 (Rage) +4 (Warshaper) = 38

Attack Bonus: +20 (BAB) + 18 (STR) + 5 (Amulet) +1 (Haste) + 2 (Feral Trance) = +46

Unarmed strike damage: 2d6 + 18 (STR) + 5 (Amulet) + 2 (Feral Trance)
Claws: 1d6 + 18 (STR) + 5 (Amulet) + 2 (Feral Trance)
Bite: 1d8 + 18 (STR) + 5 (Amulet) + 2 (Feral Trance)

AC: 10 + 14 (CON as DEX) + 14 (Unnamed) + 1 (Insight) +1 (Haste) + 8 (Bracers of Armor) + 5 (Ring of Deflection) -4 (rage) = 49

FORT 20 (base) + 14 (CON) +1 (insight) + 5 (Resistance) = +40
REF 7 + 1 (DEX) +1 (insight) + +1 (Haste) 5 (Resistance) = +15
WILL 7 + 14 (CON) modifier +1 (insight) + 5 (Resistance) = +27

Other: Get a weapon with the Parrying enchantment that you can hold when you are a bear. Maybe a weighted cloak? If you can’t then the Dusty Rose Iouns Stone, Pale Green Ioun Stone and/or the Stone of Good Luck can give +2 to skills, saves, and ability checks along with a +1 to attack and +1 to AC if used together. Doesn’t quite stack with Parrying, though, and is bloody expensive.

Items: Amulet of Mighty Fists, Parrying cloak, Gloves of the Balanced Hand, Vest of Resistance and Freedom of Movement, Bracers of Armor, Belt of Strength and Health, Manuals of Strength and Health, Ring of Speed, Ring of Protection. Wildening clasps if needed, though bears can wear all of that if the circus pictures I’ve seen are any indication.

Sources used

Complete Warrior & Errata
Tome of Battle
Player’s Handbook 2
Complete Champion
Races of Stone
Unearthed Arcana
XPH
MIC

Errata on Bear Warrior

Whenever a bear warrior enters a rage or frenzy, he can choose to assume bear form (similar to the polymorph spell). He must remain in bear form until the end of his rage or frenzy. When his rage or frenzy ends, the bear warrior immediately returns to his own form. The number of times a bear warrior can assume bear form is the number of times per day he enters a rage or frenzy. Ignore the conflicting limitations specified in the third, fourth, and fifth paragraphs of the bear form description.

SNAKE EYES!

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:29 PM
Predator? Prey? I'm the guy with the Animal Companion.
Felix, Hobo King of the Felines
Dark Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/Factotum 3/Swashbuckler 3/Monk 2/Beastmaster 1/Animal Lord (Catlord) 10

The elven people on the island of Inmai often share the tale of a wild gnome that can be found on their island, but nobody even knows if the tale is true any more. Felix is often talked about but rarely seen, save as a quick shadow in the corner of the eye. Wanderers and vagrants lift him up as a folk hero, while the city guard treats his name like a sip of vinegar. Below is Felix's class breakdown, extended backstory, and additional information.

{table=head]ATTRIBUTE|Points|Base|Race|Levels|Enhancement|Inhe rent|Class|TOTAL|MOD
STR|4|12|-2|||||10|+0
DEX|10|16|+2||+6|+4|+2|30|+10
CON|2|10|+2|||||12|+1
INT|16|18||+5|+6|+5||34|+12
WIS|0|8||||||8|-1
CHA|0|8|-2|||||6|-2[/table]


{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Wilderness Rogue 1|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|8+INT|Craven|Sneak attack +1d6, antiquarian

2nd|Swashbuckler 1|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|4+INT|Weapon Finesse|Bonus feat (Weapon Finesse)

3rd|Factotum 1|
+1|
+2|
+4|
+0|6+INT|Knowledge Devotion|Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, trapfinding

4th|Swashbuckler 2|
+2|
+3|
+4|
+0|4+INT| |Arcane Stunt: Blur

5th|Factotum 2|
+3|
+3|
+5|
+0|6+INT||Arcane Dilettante (1 spell)

6th|Invisible Eye Monk 1|
+3|
+5|
+7|
+2|4+INT|Carmendine Monk, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes|Unarmed strike, AC bonus, flurry of blows, bonus feat (Combat Reflexes)

7th|Invisible Eye Monk 2|
+4|
+6|
+8|
+3|4+INT|Lightning Reflexes|Evasion, bonus feat (Lightning Reflexes)

8th|Swashbuckler 3|
+5|
+6|
+9|
+4|4+INT||Insightful Strike

9th|Factotum 3|
+6/+1|
+7|
+9|
+5|6+INT|Skill Focus (Handle Animal)|Brains over Brawn, Cunning Defense

10th|Beastmaster 1|
+7/+2|
+9|
+11|
+5|4+INT||Animal Companion, Wild Empathy

11th|Catlord 1|
+8/+3|
+11|
+13|
+5|4+INT||Animal Bond, Detect Animals, Wild Empathy (stacks with Beastmaster)

12th|Catlord 2|
+9/+4|
+12|
+14|
+5|4+INT|Darkstalker|First totem, improved low-light vision (because of racial low-light vision)

13th|Catlord 3|
+10/+5|
+12|
+14|
+6|4+INT||Wild aspect 1/day

14th|Catlord 4|
+11/+6/+1|
+13|
+15|
+6|4+INT||Speak w/ Animals 1/day

15th|Catlord 5|
+12/+7/+2|
+13|
+15|
+6|4+INT|Underfoot Combat|Summon Animal 1/day

16th|Catlord 6|
+13/+8/+3|
+14|
+16|
+7|4+INT|Confound the Big Folk|Second totem (bonus feat since Monk 2 gave Lightning Reflexes), wild aspect 2/day

17th|Catlord 7|
+14/+9/+4|
+14|
+16|
+7|4+INT||Animal Growth 1/day

18th|Catlord 8|
+15/+10/+5|
+15|
+17|
+7|4+INT|Natural Bond|Animal telepathy

19th|Catlord 9|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+15|
+17|
+8|4+INT||Wild aspect 3/day

20th|Catlord 10|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+16|
+18|
+8|4+INT||Third totem[/table]

BUILD HIGHLIGHTS:

Three levels of Factotum provides Felix access to 1 arcane spell for his arcane dilettante spell-like ability. He chooses reduce person daily, bringing himself down to Tiny size. This provides a bonus to his Hide checks, AC, and attacks at lower levels, but the icing on the cake is at higher levels, when it allows him to benefit from Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk against Medium or larger creatures.
By level 20, Felix has a +49 hide and a +53 move silently without magic items. The Dark Creature template provides further bonuses, as well as allowing Felix (and Eli) to hide in plain sight. Darkstalker makes him even harder to detect, the hat of anonymity helps him blend in, and a friendly caster could cast mind blank or similar anti-divination spells on him.
Felix gains the Dark Creature template from a continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, as does Eli. For further notes on this template, see the Quirks/Notes section.
Beastmaster, catlord, and Natural Bond provide an animal companion at the level of a 17th level druid. Felix uses Handle Animal to rear this companion as a warbeast.
Damage bonuses: +1d6 sneak+level (Craven)+12 (Insightful Strike) constant, additional boosts provided by the Tooth of Dahlver Nar, Knowledge Devotion, and Cunning Insight
Feats for free: Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Confound the Big Folk (since Invisible Eye Monk grants Lightning Reflexes, Catlord grants a free bonus feat...any one that Felix is eligible for at level 16).
Cunning insight/knowledge/defense and Brains over Brawn give a constant +12 bonus to all DEX/STR skills, and can boost attack, damage (see above), saves, skills, and AC on a per-encounter basis
Carmendine Monk provides a continuous +12 bonus to AC
Arcane Stunt provides a (shortened) 2nd-level spell-like ability usable 12 times/day
Two levels of monk, monk's belt, and monk's tattoo mean Felix is treated as an 11th-level monk for unarmed damage, AC bonus, and speed bonus. This alone gives Felix a 60-foot land speed and a further +2 bonus to AC.
The class itself actually provides interesting synergy, allowing you to summon a big cat and make it even bigger as a swift action via Animal Growth. Granted, it's only 1/day, and this is at level 17, but it's worth noting. Alternatively, Eli could be made bigger.
Four attacks on a full attack (five if flurry of blows works with claws...if not, still five unarmed attacks)


BACKSTORY:


Before adventuring:
For Felix Whippersnap, even as a young gnome, freedom was always paramount. He thought of a home as nothing but a comfortable cage and, as such, avoided his as much as possible. He lived in the jungle until he was found by a troupe of bandits, who took the stealthy little man under their wing.

Level 1:
He moved to the city with them and became a cat burglar, stealing divine artifacts straight out of the city’s biggest temples. However, he would often escape to the comfort of the wild between jobs. He had the freedom to come and go as he pleased, but one job changed everything. Felix’s heist was interrupted by a sleepless child, and the gnome panicked. His tiny blade found the boy’s gut with sickening ease. The child’s face twisted in confusion and pain as he deflated like a waterskin. Felix stood frozen, but only for a second. He fled, taking up the life of a vagrant. He ate from trashcans, slept in trees, and scuttled on to the next town when wanted posters with his portrait starting cropping up. However, word travels faster than a gnome’s feet, and Felix soon found himself uncomfortably familiar to the town guard in every city he visited.

Levels 2-5:
After his fourth jailbreak, Felix knew that he needed a change of scenery. He took a position as a crewman aboard the Milady Adalia, a ship that sailed with no questions and no papers. The gnome learned the art of sailing quickly, and he was soon scampering along the masts rigging ropes and making repairs without any formal training. He took whatever task was handed to him, as he had finally found a family that offered him all of the comforts of home with none of the restrictions. Soon, the captain got wind of Felix’s past, and asked him to perform jobs requiring a bit more skill—looting other ships, assassinating the captain’s rivals, and the like. While Felix still felt repentant for his first murder, he felt no guilt in these jobs. He was merely protecting his captain and, by bringing evil men to their end, possibly atoning for his own sins. He loved his life at sea, and he would often laugh at his own good fortune.

However, the sea is a beast not to be taken lightly. One day, while Felix was manning the crow’s nest, a fierce storm came upon the ship. Wave after wave lashed over the boat, striking down the crew and pulling them into the cruel waters below. Felix was forced to watch helplessly from above as men who had become his closest friends drowned to death. Though he tried to save them, there was nothing he could do as another strong wave snapped the main mast in two, pulling Felix down as well. When he came to, Felix and a few other stragglers found themselves washed ashore on an island with no sign of their ship. Luckily, the native elven people of the island welcomed the survivors warmly. Felix was impressed with the liberal nature of the elves, and he was fascinated by their collection of strange and exotic wildlife kept at the island’s zoo. He would often linger by the leopard cages, amazed by the quiet grace behind the cat’s powerful moves. One day, while visiting the zoo, he noticed the most beautiful woman he had ever seen—a tall elven maiden feeding fish to a family of seals. He shyly introduced himself, and after a short courtship, the two were married on the island. Felix stayed and made a life for himself with his new wife, Enara. For the first time, he found a place to settle down.

Levels 6-7:
Enara taught Felix the spiritual practices of her people—namely the study of their holy texts and the practice of enlightenment through meditation. Felix took to the practices immediately, and would sometimes meditate for days at a time. However, one day Enara came to him with big news: she was to have a child, and as such she would have to take some time off from the zoo. Felix would have to work a steady job to support his new family, but he was thrilled. He immediately took over Enara’s position as a zookeeper, and the menial work allowed him time to meditate while he worked. He would still visit the leopard cage as much as possible, clearing his mind and picturing himself bounding around with the mighty cats. Everything seemed to move slowly around him, and he could see the various parts of his life clicking into place like gears in a beautifully elaborate machine.

However, Felix soon began having nightmares. He would see a twisting blade and a flash of red, accompanied by the sound of a crying baby. He tried reading the scriptures more, meditating more, but nothing could shake his feelings of dread. As it turns out, his sense of foreboding was not without merit. The closer Enara came to term, the sicker she became. What started as a mild fever became a constant problem, and her already-pale skin grew even whiter until her feeble veins were visible just below the surface. The various priests and witch doctors that visited all presented Felix with the same news—they could only focus their prayers and magic on one of the two, mother or child. Furthermore, the side effects of the treatments on the one would likely kill the other. After many tearful conversations, Felix knew what he had to do. Enara wanted to have this child, and she wanted Felix to raise the baby on the island. When the time came, the clerics tried everything they could, but the strain of childbirth was too much for Enara, and she passed. The child was born with the same high fever as his mother, and Felix only had two weeks with his son Eli before the boy, too, passed away.

Levels 8-9:
With nothing left to live for, Felix ran once again. He hopped aboard another ship, determined to go back to the life he once had aboard the Milady Adalia. However, the captain of this ship was an awful man, a slaver who would often kidnap children to sell them in the next port. Felix couldn’t take it, and he violently murdered the captain one night in his quarters. As soon as the murder occurred, another storm swallowed up the vessel, stranding Felix once again on the same island he had tried to leave.

Level 10:
Convinced that Enara was asking him to stay from beyond the grave, Felix returned to his work at the zoo. A baby leopard was born, and Felix asked his supervisors if he could rear the cub. They allowed him to, and Felix would often spend long hours with the creature, bottle-feeding it or playing with it even long after the zoo closed. He affectionately named it Eli, and it was clear that this gnome and leopard had a special bond. One day, Felix was surprised at exactly how close this bond was. He began to feel the leopard’s emotions: its instincts, its excitement, and its sense of yearning to be free. While Felix had chosen to give up his freedom, Eli never had the choice—he was born in captivity, and he would die in captivity. Felix couldn’t stand the thought, and he broke the leopard out of the zoo.

Levels 11-20:
Now together, the two prowl the island freely. Felix has grown his hair out like matted fur, and has even gone so far as to replace his teeth with fangs. However, he is no villain—he and Eli stalk in the shadows, only springing out to fight alongside children. It doesn’t matter if they’re robbing you blind or asking you for food; if you’re speaking to a child on Felix’s island, it’s best to speak kindly. Elven parents on the island often try to use the story of a wild gnome to scare their children into behaving, but their children just laugh—they know Felix exists to protect them, thinking of each of them as his own children.


RACIAL TRAITS AND OTHER INFO:
Lawful Neutral alignment
small size


+1 AC
+1 size on attack
+4 size bonus on Hide checks

Low-light vision (improved by Catlord)
Darkvision 60 ft
Weapon familiarity: hooked hammers
+1 to attack kobolds/goblinoids
+4 dodge bonus to AC vs giants
Silence 1/day
Favored class: rogue

SKILL TRICKS (and levels gained):
Clever Improviser @ 3rd level
Collector of stories @ 4th level
Clarity of vision @ level 12
Acrobatic backstab @ level 13
Back on your feet @ level 14

SKILL BREAKDOWN @ 20th level without items (except attribute boosts):
{table=head]Appraise|Balance|Bluff|Climb|Concentration|Craft|D ecipher Script|Diplomacy|Disable Device|Disguise|Escape Artist|Forgery|Gather Information|Handle Animal|Heal|Hide|Intimidate|Jump|Know:arcana|Know: dungeoneering|Know:local|Know:nature|Know:planes|K now:religion|Listen|Move Silently|Open Lock|Perform|Profession:sailor|Ride|Search|Sense Motive|Sleight of Hand|Spellcraft|Spot|Survival|Swim|Tumble|UMD|Use Rope
12|24|-2|13|1|12|12|-2|19|-2|22|12|0|10|-1|49|-2|15|18|18|18|20|18|18|23|53|28|-2|0|24|20|-1|26|14|22|4|14|34|-2|22
[/table]


POSSIBLE LEVEL 20 GEAR LIST:
Hat of Anonymity, +6 INT added(48500)
Blindfold of True Darkness (9000)
Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (22000)
Phoenix Cloak (60000)
Bracers of the Hunter (8500)
Gloves of DEX +6 (36000)
Ring of Protection +5 (50000)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40000)
Vest of resistance +4 (25000)
Monk's belt (13000)
Boots of Speed (12000)
Tome of DEX +4 (110000)
Tome of INT +5 (137,000)
Mwk tools: Hide, Move Silent, Tumble (150)
Psychoactive Skin of the Defender (32000)
Tooth of Dahlver Nar: Leraje (43200)
Monk's tattoo (80000)
Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis for Eli (22000)
Bag of Tricks: tan (6300)
5,350 gp left to rear Eli


QUIRKS/NOTES:
Felix would use his handle animal skill to raise Eli to be a warbeast (MMII) if permitted by the DM.

Felix has a natural progression through levels except for his slow-starting Will save, but please keep in mind that Inspiration can be used to up those.

For a low-magic/low-item campaign, it may be fitting to remove the level of Rogue in exchange for the Dark creature template (currently granted by the collar of umbral metamorphosis). As such, Craven becomes worthless. Take Factotum at first level instead, with Darkstalker. This frees up a feat down the road, which can be used for anything. If wizards.com material is allowed, consider Font of Inspiration or Wild Cohort at later levels (to finally get a tiger companion, which is unfortunately unavailable to the Beastmaster).

For a high-magic campaign/high-wealth campaign, consider dropping the level of Rogue and levels of monk in favor of the Dark creature template and either two levels of conjurer (if playing with multi-class penalties) or a level of conjurer and a level of Abjurant Champion (if not). Not only does this open up a lot of arcane spells, but it can provide the amazingly broken Abrupt Jaunt class feature. if your DM disallows this, or you just want to be nice, at least you still get a cat familiar for flavor. While you could keep the collar of umbral metamorphosis, simply taking the template frees up your throat slot for the Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savages Species). Also, in a high-magic world, you may want to consider using the Quick trait from Unearthed Arcana. When healing abounds, -20 hp over 20 levels isn't that bad in exchange for a 10-foot speed bonus. Of course, you're already pretty fast.

The head slot item above uses the rules to add a +6 enhancement bonus to INT on a regular Hat of Anonymity. If your DM disallows these rules, just use a regular +6 Headband of Intellect. Because of the factotum's Brains over Brawn ability, you still gain a +3 bonus to Hide, among other things.

Though it replaces the grace class feature, the Arcane Stunt alternate class feature comes at level 1, according to Complete Mage. However, I have put it at the level of the feature it replaces.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:30 PM
Someone's compensating for something.
Organization: The Slithering Guild

There are many thieves’ guilds throughout the land: hotbeds of larceny, training grounds of subterfuge, and birthplaces of backstabs. But the Slitherers, in the tropical city of Zirraen, are unique among all their competitors. How could they not be, when the chances are good that a poisoned guild member was attacked naturally by a scorpion, rather than being assassinated? When there is little need to set a guard around the guild’s armory at night, since it is surrounded by a moat full of crocodiles anyway?

Type: Thieves’ guild
Background and Goals
Acquire wealth. Protect the sultan of Zirraen from would-be assassins. Advance the sciences of brewing poisons and antidotes and safely rearing venomous creatures.

Criterion Modifiers for Guild Membership
Character level: +1/3 levels
Eunuch: +1
Bluff 5 ranks: +1
Sneak Attack class feature: +1
Poison Use class feature: +3
Having venomous snakes or scorpions trained and under control: +1/2 each (limit +3)
Having a venomous creature as a familiar, animal companion, or similar: +2
Having assassinated someone in the service of the guild: +1 each (limit +3)
Having assassinated someone within the guild via poison: +1
Having prevented an assassination by poison within the guild (including against oneself): +2
Having papers of recommendation from the city clergy: +2
Having prevented the sultan’s assassination: +7
Member of another thieves’ guild: -5
Earning the sultan’s enmity: -15

Affiliation ScoreTitle: Benefits and Duties
4 or less: cutthroat-for-hire or not affiliated.
5-10: Guild worker - can be hired to guard guild property or go on guild missions that involve confidential information.
11-13: Guild agent - +2 circumstance bonus to Fortitude saves vs. poison and Craft (poisonmaking) checks.
14-17: Elite agent - Access to guild harems
18-21: Forked Tongue Operative - +2 circumstance bonus to Bluff and Disguise checks.
22-24: Member of the Twisting Coil - Access to guild treasuries
25 or higher: Guildmaster - Considered a bodyguard to the sultan. Receive free healing services from court clergy. In line for succession to leadership of the entire guild.


Guildmaster Ruszel of the Slithering Guild
As you are escorted into the central hub of the guild -- what you could only call a throne room -- you see the man who has summoned you, surrounded by guildthieves waving fans.

The air is hot and thick and feels hard to see through, but you make out that Guildmaster Ruszel is a stocky man with a shiny bald head and well-toned muscles, possibly oiled. He wears a vest and a sort of a toga wrap, small earrings and large finger-rings; his hand holds a coiled whip, and his eyes look sharp enough to match it. But his most striking feature, as you approach closer, is that his cloak is held in place by a live tiny viper coiled around his neck.

You suppose you actually shouldn’t be too surprised, considering the number of snakes that inhabit the rest of the throne room ...

Backstory

Ruszel was raised as one of the waifs wandering the royal court. His mother, a minor lady of Zirraen, tried terribly hard to keep him innocent of the intrigues of court life. However, she was well-versed in the realities of Zirraen power, and made sure her bright young boy had a strong foundational education in animal handling, apothecary work, and contortionist exercises.

Ruszel was always of solid stature, and in adolescence he was quickly drafted into the palace guard. He was talented with a ranseur, either for disarming opponents or for supporting his fellow guards as they fought. Before long, he was assigned to guard a caravan of the Slithering Guild, and a temporary assignment grew into a permanent association.

Initially Ruszel was ridiculed and mocked harshly by Forked Tongue Operative Malus, who was in charge of training new recruits. He said Ruszel didn't have what it took to be a real guildthief: ruthlessness or enough talent with poisons. In spite of the oppression the boy was talented, and turned his focus towards rearing and training snakes, figuring out what tasks they could do in his behalf.

Eventually Ruszel's mother was killed in a political struggle, and he inherited a magic Amulet from her, which grew in power as his skills grew. Malus was cold and hardened about her death. Ruszel couldn't take that ... so finally one night, he killed Malus and created an opening that let him get promoted within the guild.

After this act of vengeance, he finally developed the things he would need (i.e. an evil alignment) to master poison use and become a veritable assassin. Increased ruthlessness, a pattern of promotion, and his ever-increasing talent with control of all snakes led him quickly up the guild's ladder hierarchy.

{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st | Factotum |
+0 |
+0 |
+2 |
+0 | Heal 4, Handle Animal 4, Escape Artist 4, Craft (poisonmaking) 4, Survival 4, Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Disguise 4, Listen 4, Knowledge (nature) 2, Use Rope 1, Tumble 1 | Combat Reflexes, Stand Still | Trapfinding, Inspiration (2), Cunning Knowledge, Cunning Insight

2nd | Factotum |
+1 |
+0 |
+3 |
+0 | Heal 5, Handle Animal 5, Escape Artist 5, Craft (poisonmaking) 5, Survival 5, Bluff 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Listen 4, Knowledge (nature) 2, Use Rope 1, Tumble 1; healing hands | | Inspiration (3), Arcane Dilettante (1 cantrip)

3rd | Factotum |
+2 |
+1 |
+3 |
+1 | Bluff 6, Handle Animal 6, Escape Artist 6, Craft (poisonmaking) 6, Listen 6, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Use Rope 1, Tumble 1; healing hands, second impression | Skill Focus (handle animal) | Arcane Dilettante (level 1), Brains over Brawn, Cunning Defense

4th | Factotum |
+3 |
+1 |
+4 |
+1 | Bluff 7, Handle Animal 7, Escape Artist 7, Craft (poisonmaking) 7, Listen 7, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Knowledge (nature) 2, Hide 2, Move Silently 1, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Rope 1, Tumble 1; healing hands, second impression | INT +1 | Arcane Dilettante (2 spells), Cunning Strike

5th | Factotum |
+3 |
+1 |
+4 |
+1 | Bluff 8, Handle Animal 8, Escape Artist 8, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 8, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Knowledge (nature) 2, Hide 3, Move Silently 3, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Rope 1, Tumble 1; healing hands, second impression, social recovery | | Inspiration (4), Arcane Dilettante (level 2), Opportunistic Piety

6th | Beastmaster |
+4 |
+3 |
+6 |
+1 | Bluff 8, Handle Animal 9, Escape Artist 8, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 9, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Knowledge (nature) 2, Hide 6, Move Silently 6, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Rope 1, Tumble 1; healing hands, second impression, social recovery | Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip) | Animal Companion, Wild Empathy

7th | Factotum |
+5 |
+4 |
+7 |
+2 | Bluff 10, Handle Animal 10, Escape Artist 10, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 9, Hide 6, Move Silently 6, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Tumble 3, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Rope 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1; healing hands, second impression, social recovery | |

8th | Snakelord |
+6/+1 |
+6 |
+9 |
+2 | Bluff 10, Handle Animal 11, Escape Artist 11, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 10, Hide 7, Move Silently 7, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Tumble 3, Intimidate 2, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Rope 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1; healing hands, escape attack, second impression, social recovery | INT +1 | Animal Bond, detect animals

9th | Snakelord |
+7/+2 |
+7 |
+10 |
+2 | Bluff 10, Handle Animal 12, Escape Artist 12, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 11, Hide 8, Move Silently 8, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Tumble 3, Intimidate 4, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Rope 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1; healing hands, escape attack, quick escape, second impression, social recovery | Natural Bond | First Totem (+4 Escape Artist), Low-Light Vision

10th | Snakelord |
+8/+3 |
+7 |
+10 |
+3 | Bluff 10, Handle Animal 13, Escape Artist 13, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 12, Hide 9, Move Silently 9, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Tumble 3, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Rope 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1; healing hands, escape attack, quick escape, second impression, social recovery | | Wild Aspect 1/day

11th | Factotum |
+9/+4 |
+7 |
+10 |
+3 | Bluff 13, Handle Animal 13, Escape Artist 13, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 12, Hide 9, Move Silently 9, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Tumble 6, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; healing hands, escape attack, quick escape, second impression, social recovery | | Arcane Dilettante (3 spells)

12th | Factotum |
+10/+5 |
+7 |
+11 |
+3 | Bluff 15, Handle Animal 14, Escape Artist 14, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 12, Hide 10, Move Silently 10, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Tumble 9, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; healing hands, escape attack, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, whip climber | Martial Stance (thicket of blades); INT +1 | Inspiration (5), Arcane Dilettante (level 3), Cunning Surge

13th | Snakelord |
+11/+6/+1 |
+8 |
+12 |
+3 | Bluff 15, Handle Animal 16, Escape Artist 16, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 13, Hide 12, Move Silently 12, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Tumble 9, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; healing hands, escape attack, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, whip climber | | speak with animals

14th | Assassin |
+11/+6/+1 |
+8 |
+14 |
+3 | Bluff 17, Handle Animal 16, Escape Artist 16, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 13, Hide 13, Move Silently 13, Tumble 12, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; acrobatic backstab, healing hands, escape attack, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, whip climber | | Sneak Attack +1d6, Death Attack, Poison Use, Spells

15th | Snakelord |
+12/+7/+2 |
+8 |
+14 |
+3 | Bluff 17, Handle Animal 18, Escape Artist 18, Craft (poisonmaking) 8, Listen 14, Hide 14, Move Silently 14, Tumble 12, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; acrobatic backstab, healing hands, escape attack, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, timely misdirection, whip climber | Craven | summon animal

16th | Uncanny Trickster |
+12/+7/+2 |
+8 |
+16 |
+3 | Bluff 19, Handle Animal 18, Escape Artist 19, Craft (poisonmaking) 10, Listen 17, Hide 17, Move Silently 17, Tumble 12, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; acrobatic backstab, assume quirk, healing hands, escape attack, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, timely misdirection, whip climber | INT +1 | Bonus Trick, Favorite Trick (second impression)

17th | Snakelord |
+13/+8/+3 |
+9 |
+17 |
+4 | Bluff 19, Handle Animal 20, Escape Artist 20, Craft (poisonmaking) 10, Listen 18, Hide 19, Move Silently 19, Tumble 12, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Intimidate 8, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Use Magic Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; acrobatic backstab, assume quirk, healing hands, escape attack, never outnumbered, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, timely misdirection, whip climber | Improved Initiative | Second Totem (feat), Wild Aspect 2/day

18th | Uncanny Trickster |
+14/+9/+4 |
+9 |
+18 |
+4 | Bluff 21, Handle Animal 20, Escape Artist 21, Craft (poisonmaking) 10, Listen 20, Hide 21, Move Silently 21, Tumble 12, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Intimidate 8, Use Magic Device 6, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; acrobatic backstab, assume quirk, healing hands, escape attack, listen to this, never outnumbered, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, timely misdirection, whip climber | Darkstalker | Bonus Trick, Favorite Trick (social recovery), animal growth

19th | Snakelord |
+15/+10/+5 |
+9 |
+18 |
+4 | Bluff 21, Handle Animal 22, Escape Artist 22, Craft (poisonmaking) 12, Listen 22, Hide 22, Move Silently 22, Tumble 12, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Intimidate 9, Use Magic Device 6, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; acrobatic backstab, assume quirk, healing hands, escape attack, listen to this, never outnumbered, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, timely misdirection, whip climber | | Animal Telepathy

20th | Uncanny Trickster |
+16/+11/+6/+1 |
+10 |
+18 |
+5 | Bluff 23, Handle Animal 22, Escape Artist 23, Craft (poisonmaking) 15, Listen 23, Hide 23, Move Silently 23, Tumble 12, Heal 5, Survival 5, Diplomacy 5, Disguise 5, Use Rope 5, Intimidate 10, Use Magic Device 8, Knowledge (local) 5, Knowledge (nature) 2, Sleight of Hand 1, Open Lock 1, Search 1, Disable Device 1, Concentration 1, Autohypnosis 1, Forgery 1; acrobatic backstab, assume quirk, collector of stories, healing hands, escape attack, listen to this, never outnumbered, quick escape, second impression, social recovery, timely misdirection, whip climber | CON +1 | Bonus Trick, Favorite Trick (acrobatic backstab), Tricky Defense, Wild Aspect 3/day

[/table]

Initial and final ability scores:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 12
Str 20, Dex 18, Con 22, Int 30, Wis 12, Cha 16

Equipment
Besides standard equipment, the most important thing is for Ruszel to pick up a Novice Devoted Spirit Amulet before he can take Martial Stance, and a Ring of Evasion. Because ... well, with that Reflex save, how can you not buy one? .

Other comments

I didn't get everything in this build to work out the way I'd like. So I'll just comment on its flaws before the judges have a chance to.

I dipped two prestige classes for one level each. That's unfortunate, but I felt that dipping Beastmaster was more elegant than adding a second base class (like Druid) to getting an animal companion. I wanted to keep Ruszel's base class pure Factotum ... because this is utterly unlike any other Factotum build I've seen, and moreover Factotum is the only class with the combination of abilities to pull this type of build off.

As for Assassin, I would have skipped it in spite of how powerful Craven is, except that its flavor was so perfect -- Poison Use, and the mechanics of sneak attack making his snake minions much more potent (since they can flank, and constrictors are good at grappling). Note that Craven's prerequisite says "sneak attack class feature," so neither Cunning Strike nor Assassin's Stance would technically qualify.

The build also does not complete Animal Lord -- but note that it essentially completes 9/10 of the class, not 7/10 as it appears on first glance, since Uncanny Trickster progresses Animal Lord in pretty much all ways (except a couple hit points). The final level of Animal Lord would grant +2 Charisma, which is flavorful but fairly useless for this build. I thought about dropping 3 levels of Uncanny Trickster in favor of 3 levels of Animal Lord, but it felt like it just would have lost some of the character's flavor overall.

Since I'm running out of time to write more details, I hope the power of the build is mostly self-evident. But I'll try to give a summary:

He's a very competent skillmonkey at all levels. Traps aren't his specialty, but many campaigns don't include more than one trap per day, and he at least has the basic abilities (considering Cunning Knowledge). Stealth? Scouting? Social rogue functions? All excellent.

He's also a good melee battlefield controller. Feats and a reach weapon make him great from Level 1, and eventually a dagger whip (not a regular whip, obviously; if dagger whip isn't allowed, change his Exotic Proficiency to Spiked Chain or Kusari-Gama instead of whip!) and Craven damage boosts, he'll be a monster in melee. And then consider the snakes! Summoned snakes, purchased and trained snakes, and a snake animal companion most of all. He ends up with an effective Druid level of 16 for purposes of his snake companion, which is respectable. Throw in the occasional poisonous bite from Wild Aspect, and the occasional extra attack from Cunning Surge.

If he's up against a losing battle, his standard tactic is surrender, counting on his Bluff checks to keep him alive, so that he might have more opportunities to use his excellent Escape Artist skills which are iconic to the Snakelord.

Miscellaneous skill tricks and minor magical tricks (Assassin and Factotum spells) round out the build. Note that his favorite Facotum spell will be Heroics, which among other uses lets him temporarily learn Martial Study (foehammer) as a prerequisite to Martial Stance (thicket of blades), so that he's not fully dependent on his Amulet to be able to take that feat.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:31 PM
UROG SMASH PUNY NON-BEAR!
Name: Urog Wind Bear
Race: Neanderthal

Progression
{table=head]Level | Class | Str | Dex | Con | Int | Wis | Cha | BAB | Base Fort | Base Ref | Base Will | Feats | Class Features | Skills
1st | Ranger (Wildshape) | 20 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | Power Attack | Fast Movement, Favoured Enemy (Animal), Wild Empathy | Intimidate 2 Handle Animal 4 Knowledge (Nature) 4 Survival 4 Spot 4
2nd | Ranger (Wildshape) | 20 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 0 | | | Intimidate 2.5 Handle Animal 5 Knowledge (Nature) 5 Survival 5 Spot 5
3rd | Ranger (Wildshape) | 20 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | Endurance, Toughness | | Intimidate 3 Handle Animal 6 Knowledge (Nature) 6 Survival 6 Spot 6
4th | Ranger (Wildshape) | 21 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 1 | | Animal Companion | Intimidate 3.5 Handle Animal 7 Knowledge (Nature) 7 Survival 7 Spot 7
5th | Ranger (Wildshape) | 21 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 1 | | Wildshape 1/day | Intimidate 4 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 8 Spot 8
6th | Animal Lord (Bear) | 21 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 6/1 | 6 | 6 | 1 | Self Sufficient | Animal Bond, Dectect Animals, Wild Empathy | Intimidate 5 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 9 Spot 9
7th | Animal Lord (Bear) | 21 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 7/2 | 7 | 7 | 1 | | First Totem, Low-Light Vision | Intimidate 6 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 10 Spot 10
8th | Animal Lord (Bear) | 22 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 8/3 | 7 | 7 | 2 | | Wild Aspect 1/day | Intimidate 7 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 11 Spot 11
9th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 22 | 8 | 16 | 8 | 8 | 14 | 9/4 | 9 | 7 | 2 | Improved Natural Attack (Claw) | Primeval Form 1/day, Animal Empathy | Intimidate 8 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 12 Spot 11
10th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 23 | 9 | 17 | 7 | 9 | 13 | 10/5 | 10 | 7 | 2 | | Regression 1, Low-Light Vision | Intimidate 9 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 12 Spot 11
11th | Animal Lord (Bear) | 23 | 9 | 17 | 7 | 9 | 13 | 11/6/1 | 11 | 8 | 2 | | Speak with Animals | Intimidate 10 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 13 Spot 11
12th | Animal Lord (Bear) | 24 | 9 | 17 | 7 | 9 | 13 | 12/7/2 | 11 | 8 | 2 | Flyby Attack | Summon Animal | Intimidate 11 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 14 Spot 11
13th | Animal Lord (Bear) | 24 | 9 | 17 | 7 | 9 | 13 | 13/8/3 | 12 | 9 | 3 | Improved Grapple | Second Totem, Wild Aspect 2/day | Intimidate 12 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 15 Spot 11
14th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 24 | 9 | 17 | 7 | 9 | 13 | 14/9/4 | 12 | 10 | 4 | | Feral Power 1 | Intimidate 13 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 15 Spot 11
15th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 24 | 9 | 17 | 7 | 9 | 13 | 15/10/5 | 13 | 10 | 4 | Extra Wildshape | Primeval Form 2/day | Intimidate 14 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 15 Spot 11
16th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 26 | 10 | 18 | 6 | 10 | 12 | 16/11/6/1 | 13 | 10 | 4 | | Regression 2, Scent | Intimidate 15 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 15 Spot 11
17th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 26 | 10 | 18 | 6 | 10 | 12 | 17/12/7/2 | 14 | 11 | 5 | | Feral Power 2 | Intimidate 16 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 15 Spot 11
18th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 26 | 10 | 18 | 6 | 10 | 12 | 18/13/8/3 | 14 | 11 | 5 | Extra Wildshape | Primeval Form 3/day | Intimidate 17 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 15 Spot 11
19th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 27 | 11 | 19 | 5 | 11 | 11 | 19/14/9/4 | 15 | 11 | 5 | | Regression 3, Fast Movement | Intimidate 18 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 15 Spot 11
20th | Primeval (Dire Eagle) | 28 | 11 | 19 | 5 | 11 | 11 | 20/15/10/5 | 15 | 12 | 6 | | Feral Power 3 | Intimidate 19 Handle Animal 8 Knowledge (Nature) 8 Survival 15 Spot 11[/table]

The Tale of the Wind Bear
A warrior of the high mountains, Urog belonged to the Wind Bear tribe, named for the great eagles which flew over head, mightier than the other sky dwellers, as were the bears of the lands below. First born son of the cheiftan Urog was destined for great things and was trained in the arts of the wilderness. Setting out for the lowlands to learn more about the world, Urog signed up with an adventuring group, taking the lead by the stength of his arm.
The strength of his arm could only carry him so far though, for as he grew more powerful and learnt more of the world, Urog became more in touch with the animals, first the mighty bears of the wood and wasteland, then with the great eagles of his mountain homelands. Becoming one with nature and with the beasts, he gave up his humanity for greater strength and attunement.


Level 20
Hit Dice: 4d8+15d10+188
Initative: +4
Speed: 30ft, Fly 60ft (Average)
Armour Class: 27 (-1 Size, +5 dex, + 13 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+36
Attack: Claw, +37 melee (2d6+18), If hit free grapple attempt
Full Attack: 2 Claws, +37 melee (2d6+18), If hit free grapple attempt, and Bite +32 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Power Attack. -x to hit, +x to damage
Special Qualities: Low light vision (4x normal)
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +18, Will +6
Abilities: Strength 46, Dexterity 21, Constitution 29, Intelligence 5, Wisdom 11, Charisma 11
Skills: Intimidate +23, Handle Animal +8, Knowledge (Nature) +5, Survival +15, Spot +11

On top of this base, items of you preferance can be applied, such as weapons wieldable in claws to enable use of power attack, or increase armour class. Or hopefully path that slight hole which is the will save

Combat Tactics:
Until level 8, Urog is merely a massively strong power attacker, wielding a two handed sword to maximize damage output. Nothing much original here.
At level 9 you begin to have a choice, taking on Primeval Form, his physical stats a rather impressively increased, and more importantly, gains the ability to fly. Combined with large size and full BAB, an interesting tactic becomes viable against foes who can't fly. Pick them up and take them for a trip up then drop them to the ground. While won't work on all foes, at the very least while in mid air they are distracted.
When he hits level 12, Urog gains flyby attack, now we can swoop down, hit a foe and get our grapple attempt from Bear Lord. We are roughly mimiking the Snatch feat, depsite only being Large.
From there on out Urog gets better at this tactic, however his stregth score continues to increase and such if he does decide to stick with a sword can deal fairly decent damage, nothing compared to an ubercharger, but what does? Extra Wildshape enable Urog to actaully transform 8 times a day from level 18 onwards, so hopefully won't be forced to spend encounterd in a non-idea form

Weaknesses:
Intelligence 5. Unlike most characters, with his adventure Urog gets dumber with age. Applying an aging at level 19 when he Regresses for the third time would change most his stats to even becoming slightly better, but it does make for interesting roleplaying opportunites as he becomes more feral with time. In addition to this, Urogs will save is less than impress, a mere +6 at level 20. Magic items should be aquired to help cover this weakness, but having levels in three class where it is a weak save always makes a save lag.

Sources:
Neanderthal: Frostburn
Ranger: Players Handbook
Wildshape Ranger: Unearthed Arcana
Animal Lord: Complete Adventurer
Primeval: Frostburn
Dire Eagle: Races of Stone
Extra Wildshape: Complete Divine

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:32 PM
*insert Dances With Wolves-related joke here*

Brolly, the Alpha God
NG Human Ranger 5, Wolf Lord 7, Ranger 3, Crusader 2, Wolf Lord 3
http://i34.tinypic.com/2qu6kqa.jpg

Level Breakdown
Note: The numbers presented here are not modified by stats, items, synergy or similar, but the base numbers. For modified numbers see 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels in the 'Stats and Story' spoilers.

Base Beginning Stats
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 15

Base End Stats
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20

{table=head]Level|Class|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Ranger 1|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Handle Animal +4, Heal +4, Knowledge (nature) +2, Listen +4, Ride +4, Spot +4, Survival +4, Use Rope +2|Combat Reflexes, Mounted Combat, Track|Fast Movement (+10 feet), Favored Enemy (animals), Wild Empathy +3

2nd|Ranger 2|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Handle Animal +5, Heal +5, Knowledge (nature) +3, Listen +5, Ride +5, Spot +5, Survival +5, Use Rope +3|-|Wild Empathy +4

3rd|Ranger 3|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Handle Animal +6, Heal +6, Knowledge (nature) +4, Listen +6, Ride +6, Spot +6, Survival +6, Use Rope +3|Endurance, Vexing Flanker (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vexing_Flanker)|Wild Empathy +5

4th|Ranger 4|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Handle Animal +7, Heal +6, Knowledge (nature) +4, Listen +7, Ride +7, Spot +7, Survival +7, Use Rope +5|-|Animal Companion, Ranger Spells, Wild Empathy +7

5th|Ranger 5|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Handle Animal +8, Heal +7, Knowledge (nature) +5, Listen +8, Ride +8, Spot +7, Survival +8, Use Rope +5|-|Favored Enemy (shapechangers), Spells, Wild Empathy +8

6th|Animal Lord 1|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+1|Handle Animal +9 (+13 canines), Heal +7, Knowledge (nature) +6, Listen +9, Ride +8, Spot +8, Survival +9, Use Rope +5| Natural Bond (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Natural_Bond)|Animal Bond (wolflord), Detect Animals (canines), Wild Empathy +9 (+13 canines)

7th|Animal Lord 2|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+1|Handle Animal +10 (+14 canines), Heal +8, Knowledge (nature) +7, Listen +10, Ride +8, Spot +10, Survival +13, Use Rope +5|-|Low-light Vision, Wild Empathy +10 (+14 canines)

8th|Animal Lord 3|
+8|
+7|
+7|
+2|Handle Animal +11 (+15 canines), Heal +9, Knowledge (nature) +8, Listen +10, Ride +8, Spot +10, Survival +13, Use Rope +8|-|Wild Aspect 1/day (Scent - 30 mins.), Wild Empathy +11 (+15 canines)

9th|Animal Lord 4|
+9|
+8|
+8|
+2|Handle Animal +12 (+16 canines), Heal +9, Knowledge (nature) +9, Listen +11, Ride +9, Spot +11, Survival +14, Use Rope +8|Practiced Spellcaster (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Spellcaster)|Speak With Animals 1/day, Wild Aspect 1/day (Scent - 40 mins.), Wild Empathy +12 (+16 canines)

10th|Animal Lord 5|
+10|
+8|
+8|
+2|Handle Animal +13 (+17 canines), Heal +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Listen +12, Ride +9, Spot +12, Survival +15, Use Rope +8|-|Summon Animal (1d4+1 dire wolves) 1/day, Wild Aspect 1/day (Scent - 50 mins.), Wild Empathy +13 (+17 canines)

11th|Animal Lord 6|
+11|
+9|
+9|
+3|Handle Animal +14 (+18 canines), Heal +10, Knowledge (nature) +11, Listen +12, Ride +11, Spot +12, Survival +15, Use Rope +10|Improved Trip|Wild Aspect 2/day (Scent - 60 mins.), Wild Empathy +14 (+18 canines)

12th|Animal Lord 7|
+12|
+9|
+9|
+3|Handle Animal +16 (+20 canines), Heal +10, Knowledge (nature) +12, Listen +13, Ride +12, Spot +13, Survival +16, Use Rope +10|Chain Spell (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Chain_Spell)|Animal Growth 1/day, Wild Aspect 2/day (Scent - 70 mins.), Wild Empathy +16 (+20 canines)

13th|Ranger 6|
+13|
+10|
+10|
+4|Handle Animal +17 (+21 canines), Heal +11, Knowledge (nature) +13, Listen +14, Ride +13, Spot +14, Survival +16, Use Rope +11|-| Wild Empathy +17 (+21 canines), Wild Shape 1/day

14th|Ranger 7|
+14|
+10|
+10|
+4|Handle Animal +18 (+22 canines), Heal +12, Knowledge (nature) +14, Listen +15, Ride +14, Spot +15, Survival +17, Use Rope +11|-| Wild Empathy +18 (+22 canines), Wild Shape 2/day, Woodland Stride

15th|Ranger 8|
+15|
+11|
+11|
+4|Handle Animal +19 (+23 canines), Heal +12, Knowledge (nature) +15, Listen +16, Ride +15, Spot +16, Survival +17, Use Rope +12|Animal Defiance (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Animal_Defiance)| Wild Empathy +19 (+23 canines), Wild Shape 3/day, Swift Tracker

16th|Crusader 1|
+16|
+13|
+11|
+4|Balance +2, Handle Animal +21 (+25 canines), Heal +12, Knowledge (nature) +15, Listen +16, Ride +17, Spot +16, Survival +17, Use Rope +12|-|Furious Counterstrike, Maneuvers (Charging Minotaur, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Stone Bones, Vanguard Strike) & Stances (Iron Guard's Glare), Steely Resolve

17th|Crusader 2|
+17|
+14|
+11|
+9|Balance +5, Handle Animal +22 (+26 canines), Heal +12, Knowledge (nature) +15, Listen +16, Ride +19, Spot +16, Survival +17, Use Rope +13|-|Stance (Bolstering Voice)

18th|Animal Lord 8|
+18|
+15|
+12|
+9|Balance +5, Handle Animal +23 (+27 canines), Heal +12, Knowledge (nature) +15, Listen +16, Ride +19, Spot +16, Survival +17, Use Rope +13|Animal Control (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Animal_Control)|Animal Telepathy (100 ft.), Wild Aspect 2/day (Scent - 80 mins.), Wild Empathy +20 (+24 canines)

19th|Animal Lord 9|
+19|
+15|
+12|
+10|Balance +5, Handle Animal +24 (+28 canines), Heal +12, Knowledge (nature) +15, Listen +19, Ride +20, Spot +19, Survival +17, Use Rope +13|-|Wild Aspect 3/day (Scent - 90 mins.), Wild Empathy +21 (+25 canines)

20th|Animal Lord 10|
+20|
+16|
+13|
+10|Balance +5, Handle Animal +25 (+29 canines), Heal +13, Knowledge (nature) +15, Listen +20, Ride +20, Spot +20, Survival +17, Use Rope +13|-|Wild Aspect 3/day (Scent - 100 mins.), Wild Empathy +22 (+26 canines)
[/table]



Stats and Story
My master is a god. We both smelled the snow same time, but I was strong and fast before he could even walk. He was born wiser than I though. He understood. He could speak the high speech of the race of Masters. He was fragile for a long time, so I protected him. This was my task so he could be the Lord. I didn't know then he was to be a God rather than a Master, but I knew he was special. Before he was swift and strong I was already old to my people. Master kept me young, like he. Gods live a long, long time, and He blessed me. I was stronger. Swifter. Greater. He made me Master to my people as far from they as He was from me. The Overmaster died early, the one who taught my Master. I kept master warm. I brought him meat. When the Pack of Others, shaggy and lean, came I protected him, for they were crazed with winter hunger and would bite even Masters. I killed their Master and Master taught me a thing. To be a master of this Pack of Others. The Pack of Others became the Pack of Ours. I spoke to them of this great Master and they learned to put their faith in him like I. I took a winter mate, great mother of this Other/Our pack. She had Other/Mine children. These children Master taught as I had been taught. He Blessed them. They saw Him as I did. A great thing. A thing you would never ever bite. He taught them things the others would not listen to. Others cowered but did not listen. My pups listened. They became great. Not as I, but better than Others could be. We already knew to circle the elk, to surround the hare. He took that and we practiced. We became Greater. This was to be protected. We protected Him like no other would. He was the Master.

Level 5
Ranger 5

Medium Humanoid (human)
Hit Dice: 5d8+5 (27 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class:14 (+4 armor), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple:+5/+8
Attack: Harpoon +9 melee/ranged (1d10+4)
Full Attack: Harpoon +9 melee/ranged (1d10+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with harpoon)
Special Attacks: Favored Enemy (animals), ranger spells
Special Qualities: Wild Empathy +10
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +3
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16
Skills: Handle Animal +10, Heal +9, Knowledge (nature) +7, Listen +10, Ride +10, Spot +9, Survival +12, Use Rope +5
Feats: Combat Reflexes(HumB), Endurance(RangB), Mounted Combat, Track (RangB), Vexing Flanker (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vexing_Flanker)
Organization: Animal Companion
Challenge Rating:
Possessions: +1 Harpoon (2015 gp), Armor, masterwork studded Leather (175 gp), Boots of the Winterlands (2,500 gp), Tame Ash Rat (? gp), Troll Gut Rope (500 gp), War Sled (400 gp)

Pack Size
(not including wolves and fox)
12 warbred riding dogs (1,800 gp) + Animal companion

Animal Companion
Warbeast Riding Dog
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+12 (25 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Link, low-light vision, scent, share spells
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +10, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +5, Survival +2*
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Track (B),
Challenge Rating: 1

Link (Ex): Brolly can handle his animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if he doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Share Spells (Ex): Brolly may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to Brolly before the duration expires. Additionally, Brolly may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. Brolly and his animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).

Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.

Skills: Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.

*Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


Favored Enemy (Ex): Brolly gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against animals. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

Ranger Spells: Caster level 2nd. (Spells per day: (1); Save DC 12 + spell level)

Sample Prepared Spells
1st - Animal Friend

The winters had become worse and worse. We could only protect master with ourselves, to warm him. The master, he knew things were not right. He made us find many other Others. He made them Listen and he Blessed them. We learned to run. To run with the thing behind. The thing that pulled and he sat upon it. The Master's Chariot that moved swift as we. He met with many other masters. A Great Master he met. They spoke of things so Great I could never understand. He taught us to pull others as we pulled the Master. The Master's Pack accepted this. These were Others of the Master's that he trusted. We trusted them as we trusted the Master. We fought Others like master, but also like us. They smelled of Others of our people and even our prey, and those that preyed on us. They had fur and fought as us with Claw and Tooth, but they Thought as Master. They were Demons. We fought them for they would not let us pass. There were too many and many died. We tried to protect master, but they took Him. That was wrong. We fought to bring him out, but every time they would fight us off. I knew He must not stay with demons so I went looking for Others. I spoke with them of the Master. Of the Great. Most would not listen until I defeated their Leader. I had watched Master do this and I knew to do it. They listened. They came. We attacked. Master was saved!

We saw Him do something he had not done. He became one of Us. He could run as fast. He could speak our speak. He thanked us. But he still knew the things of a Master. But he had become a God. I lie in the snow before Him. All of The Pack did to. They knew Him. He was over us all. He was our God.

Level 10

Ranger 5, Animal Lord 5

Medium Humanoid (human)
Hit Dice: 5d8+5 + 5d10+5 (59 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class:10 (), touch, flat-footed
Base Attack/Grapple:+10/+13
Attack: Harpoon +16 melee/ranged (1d10+7)
Full Attack: Harpoon +16/+11 melee/ranged (1d10+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with harpoon)
Special Attacks: Favored Enemy (animals), Favored enemy (shapechanger), ranger spells, summon animal 1/day, wild aspect 1/day
Special Qualities: Animal bond (wolflord), detect animals (canines), speak with animals 1/day, wild empathy +13 (+17 canines)
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +4
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 17
Skills: Handle Animal +13 (+17 canines), Heal +10, Knowledge (nature) +10, Listen +12, Ride +9, Spot +12, Survival +15, Use Rope +8
Feats: Combat Reflexes(HumB), Endurance(RangB), Mounted Combat, Natural Bond (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Natural_Bond), Practiced Spellcaster (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Spellcaster), Track (RangB), Vexing Flanker (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vexing_Flanker)
Organization: Animal Companion
Challenge Rating: 10
Possessions: +3 Harpoon (9015 gp), Armor, masterwork studded Leather (175 gp), Boots of the Winterlands (2,500 gp), Collar of Healing (5,000 gp), Enemy Spirit Pouch (2,100 gp), Onyx Dog (15,500 gp), Tame Ash Rat (? gp), Troll Gut Rope (500 gp), War Sled (400 gp)

Pack Size
(not including wolves or fox)
40 warbred riding dogs (6,000 gp) + Animal companion


Animal Companion
Warbeast Riding Dog
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 9d8+36 (76 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 24 (+4 Dex, +10 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+11
Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: Bite +11/+6 melee (1d6+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Devotion, evasion, link, low-light vision, scent, share spells
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +10, Will +5
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +1, Jump +13, Listen +9, Spot +9, Swim +8, Survival +4*
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Darkstalker), Run, Track (B)
Challenge Rating: 2

Devotion (Ex): An animal companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.

Evasion (Ex): If an animal companion is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw.

Link (Ex): Brolly can handle his animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if he doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Share Spells (Ex): Brolly may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to Brolly before the duration expires. Additionally, Brolly may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. Brolly and his animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).

Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.

Skills: Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.

*Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


Favored Enemy (Ex): Brolly gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against animals. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

Against creatures with the shapechanger subtype these bonuses are doubled.

Ranger Spells: Caster level 6th. (Spells per day: (2); Save DC 12 + spell level)

Sample Prepared Spells
1st - Animal Friend, Longstrider

Generations past and we were many. No pack ever in the world like ours. No pack was ever so many. No pack had a God. He could make the smallest of us grow bigger than the biggest! We fought like One though, nothing could get in our way! The great dumb ferocious others, the little white sneaky others. They were not others any more. We were all The Pack. Everything that sniffed and pawed and howled. As one we went for the colder lands, where it hurt even to breathe. We smelled as One. We found as One. We did the Alpha God's bidding and discovered things. The place where the Demon Master/Others were strongest. We made attacks and fled. Bit and ran. We made them bleed and bleed but never could they touch us. Then came a 2nd god, the demon-god. As our God was of the Brotherhood, becoming canine, so was the demon of the wolverine. We leaped for him, and he ignored our strongest bites. We ran at him in a wall of fur and fang, but he waded through us like a sea of waves. They then did battle, taking many shapes, with claw and tooth, fist and blade they fought. More ferocious than any beasts, and with secrets known only to gods they fought. My god was glorious, but the demon-god was more terrible than anything we had ever known. He took my master in a hold and locked his jaws. Nothing my master did would make him come loose. As the demon held my god weakened. His mind then filled mine and I knew what to do. I shouted to all, and we pulled the two gods locked in death with our teeth and into the red flower. My master managed to shout and from the flower came the rat we had been told never to bite. It climbed up the demon-god's back and clouds came from it. Red flowers bloomed all over it and it writhed, finally as both were covered in the burning light it released master to roll in the snow. My master, bleeding and burnt coughed a word and he faded into my body. There I kept him warm as we all ran and ran and ran from the demon-god...

Level 15
Ranger 8, Animal Lord 7

Medium Humanoid (human)
Hit Dice: 8d8+8 + 7d10+7 (89 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class:17 (+4 wild studded leather, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple:+15/+18
Attack: +3 returning harpoon +21 melee/ranged (1d10+7)
Full Attack: +3 returning harpoon +21/+16/+11 melee/ranged (1d10+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with harpoon)
Special Attacks: Animal growth 1/day, favored Enemy (animals), ranger spells, summon animal 1/day, wild aspect 2/day, wild shape 3/day
Special Qualities: Animal bond (wolflord), detect animals (canines), speak with animals 1/day, swift tracker, wild empathy +23 (+27 canines)
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +6
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 18
Skills: Handle Animal +23 (+27 canines), Heal +14, Knowledge (nature) +17, Listen +18, Ride +17, Spot +18, Survival +21, Use Rope +12
Feats: Animal Defiance (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Animal_Defiance), Chain Spell (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Chain_Spell), Combat Reflexes(HumB), Endurance(RangB), Improved Trip, Mounted Combat, Natural Bond (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Natural_Bond), Practiced Spellcaster (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Spellcaster), Track (RangB), Vexing Flanker (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vexing_Flanker)
Organization: Animal Companion
Challenge Rating: 15
Possessions: +3 Returning Harpoon (16,015 gp), +1 Wild studded leather (16,000 gp), Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Boots of the Winterlands (2,500 gp), Collar of Healing (5,000 gp), Enemy Spirit Pouch (2,100 gp), Onyx Dog (15,500 gp), Runners of Speed (+20 ft.) (100,000 gp), Tame Ash Rat (? gp), Troll Gut Rope (500 gp), War Sled (400 gp)

Pack Size
(not including wolves or fox)
60 warbred riding dogs (9,000 gp) + Animal companion


Animal Companion
Warbeast Riding Dog
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 11d8+44 (93 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 26 (+4 Dex, +12 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+14
Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d6+9)
Full Attack: Bite +14/+9 melee (1d6+9)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Devotion, evasion, link, low-light vision, scent, share spells
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +5
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 19, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: Balance +1, Jump +13, Listen +11, Spot +11, Swim +8, Survival +4*
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Darkstalker), Run, Track (B)
Challenge Rating: 2

Devotion (Ex): An animal companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.

Evasion (Ex): If an animal companion is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw.

Link (Ex): Brolly can handle his animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if he doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Share Spells (Ex): Brolly may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to Brolly before the duration expires. Additionally, Brolly may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. Brolly and his animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).

Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.

Skills: Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.

*Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


Favored Enemy (Ex): Brolly gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against animals. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

Against creatures with the shapechanger subtype these bonuses are doubled.

Ranger Spells: Caster level 8th. (Spells per day: (2/1); Save DC 12 + spell level)

Sample Prepared Spells
1st - Animal Friend
2nd - Leap Into Animal

Swift Tracker (Ex): Brolly can move at his normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Brolly may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briers, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briers, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.


For three days we ran without stopping, many of the brothers falling behind, but they knew our scent and would find us. We knew we must find more of the race of Masters. They would know how to heal our god from the demon fever. We smelled the smell of hot meats and followed the smell to a great Master-made mountain. There they came to look at the sea of fur we were. I approached and my master left me. They gathered him up and disappeared inside. I tried to follow but they spoke Words of Command, and I stayed out. I howled though in sadness and the entire pack picked it up.

The night light grew large and fat and finally he came out. We were overjoyed and leaped upon him, and he laughed his approval as we showed him our love. He would return within many times, and when he came out knew things would he teach. If before we fought as one, we know fought as a God itself. Such secrets he taught us. He would whisper to us all, and speak to us, and as his hackles rose so would ours. Hate and love he taught us, of such greatness we felt we would burst. Love for him, and hate for the demon-gods. He took our form then one night, and spoke to us, told us of the great war against the demon-god. He put into us that love and hate til we could hold it no more. He then threw his head back in a howl that brought a madness to us. He then began to run, and we with him. FOR OUR GOD WE WOULD SLAY THEM ALL! DEMON-GOD AND ALL!

And we did. We poured over, and if be fore we had been waves, we were now an avalanche. We fought the demon-god did we all all, beat him down and drug him where we wished, and through it would wade our God, who pierced him with many of his god-weapons. We took mouthfuls of his hide and with the strength of hundreds we pulled him apart and then ripped the pieces in hunger and lust. We did not stop until only red snow steamed in the night. WE HAD WON! OURS WAS THE GREATEST GOD! WOOOO! AAAAWWWWWWHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs7/i/2005/198/6/4/vicious_wolf_by_ravenous_squirrel.jpg

Level 20
Ranger 8, Animal Lord 10, Crusader 2

Medium Humanoid (human)
Hit Dice: 8d8+24 + 10d10+30 + 2d10+6 (162 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class:23 (+8 armor, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple:+20/+24
Attack: +5 returning harpoon +29 melee/ranged (1d10+11)
Full Attack: Harpoon +29/+24/+19/+14 melee/ranged (1d10+11)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with harpoon)
Special Attacks: Animal growth 1/day, favored enemy (animals), favored enemy (shapechangers), ranger spells, summon animal 1/day, wild aspect 2/day, wild shape 3/day
Special Qualities: Animal bond (wolflord), detect animals (canines), speak with animals 1/day, swift tracker, maneuvers & stances, wild empathy +31 (+35 canines)
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +12
Abilities Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 24
Skills: Balance +5, Handle Animal +29 (+33 canines), Heal +15, Knowledge (nature) +15, Listen +22, Ride +20, Spot +22, Survival +20, Use Rope +15
Feats: Animal Defiance (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Animal_Defiance), Animal Control (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Animal_Control), Chain Spell (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Chain_Spell), Combat Reflexes(HumB), Endurance(RangB), Improved Trip, Mounted Combat, Natural Bond (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Natural_Bond), Practiced Spellcaster (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Practiced_Spellcaster), Track (RangB), Vexing Flanker (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vexing_Flanker)
Organization: Animal Companion
Challenge Rating: 20
Possessions: +5 Returning Harpoon (16,015 gp), +5 Wild studded leather (40,000 gp), Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000 gp), Boots of the Winterlands (2,500 gp), Collar of Healing (5,000 gp), Enemy Spirit Pouch (2,100 gp), Onyx Dog (15,500 gp), Lantern of Revealing (30,000 gp), Manual of Bodily Health +4 (110,000 gp), Runners of Speed (+20 ft.) (100,000 gp), Tame Ash Rat (? gp), Tome of Leadership and Influence +4 (110,000 gp), Troll Gut Rope (500 gp), War Sled (400 gp)

Pack Size
(not including wolves or fox)
80 warbred riding dogs (12,000 gp) + Animal companion

Animal Companion
Warbeast Riding Dog
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 13d8+52 (110 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 50 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (+5 Dex, +14 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+15
Attack: Bite +15 melee (1d6+9)
Full Attack: Bite +15/+19 melee (1d6+9)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Devotion, evasion, link, low-light vision, scent, share spells
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +6
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 9
Skills: Balance +1, Jump +17, Listen +11, Spot +11, Swim +8, Survival +4*
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Darkstalker), Protection Devotion (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Protection_Devotion), Run, Track (B)
Challenge Rating: 3

Devotion (Ex): An animal companion gains a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.

Evasion (Ex): If an animal companion is subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, it takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw.

Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, an animal companion takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and only half damage if the saving throw fails.

Link (Ex): Brolly can handle his animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if he doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill. The druid gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all wild empathy checks and Handle Animal checks made regarding an animal companion.

Share Spells (Ex): Brolly may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to Brolly before the duration expires. Additionally, Brolly may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. Brolly and his animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).

Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.

Skills: Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.

*Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


Favored Enemy (Ex): Brolly gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against animals. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

Against creatures with the shapechanger subtype these bonuses are doubled.

Ranger Spells: Caster level 8th. (Spells per day: (2/1); Save DC 12 + spell level)

Sample Prepared Spells
1st - Animal Friend, Longstrider
2nd - Leap Into Animal

Swift Tracker (Ex): Brolly can move at his normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. He takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Brolly may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briers, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briers, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.



How To Become A Pack God
http://i36.tinypic.com/d4mlc.jpg

You get yourself an animal companion. You spend a couple months with it and you can give him the Warbeast Template. Cast Animal Friendship on him which allows him to learn 2 extra tricks. By 20th level this dog knows 15 tricks and has 13 HD. He's basically become a cohort.

One trick your animal companion can be taught to do is signal others to do tricks. With a signal it can go round up certain dogs and take them hunting, or tell them to come defend their God or any number of interesting things.

Buy yourself a few puppies. Riding dogs are cheap, plentiful and breed well. Or get a friendly female and let your animal companion make some for you. Train each of them as a Warbeast. The Animal Friendship concretes it as well. You may have 12 dogs total with Animal Friendship.

You have started your church at this point. You have a high priest and his power base.

Let them breed some more. Train them all as Warbeasts. This is your congregation. A pack of many dozens of ferocious dogs.

You can speak with them, smell what they smell, get down to their level, but they adore you. You are strong, you are wise, you are force above all canine.

Wild Empathy acts as diplomacy, right? Well now, by 20th level you have a Wild Empathy base score in the 30's. Wake up and call forth your High Priest and his Acolytes. Once you manage to roll a few 15-20's, you have yourself a Fanatic Pack. Why is this? Well, according to the Epic Level Handbook, diplomacy roll of 50 will turn Helpful creatures (which your pack is) to Fanatics. For 8 days straight they gain a +2 bonus to Strength and Con, a +1 bonus to will saves, and they will give their very lives to your cause.

You do not need to be epic-leveled to do this, just possessed of an incredible Diplomacy (in this case, Wild Empathy) score.

With your ability to Rebuke and Command them as well via the Animal Control feat, you can command them 10 times a day mentally, controlling their very actions without them needing to know any tricks. Then cast Leap Into Animal to control directly another. You can now have at least 10 dogs under your direct control and able to do anything you like without tricks. The rest just fight like fanatics.

You hold their very lives in the palm of your hand.

Fighting With Your Worshipers
First off you need to make use of the Teamwork trick through Handle Animal. Awareness is good, but Massed Charged is... deific.

Always have at least one layer of dogs circle your opponents. Preferably two. He cannot reach you without triggering AoOs, and all the magebred dogs have Combat Reflexes, allowing at least 4 attacks each. One of these can be a trip

With Animal Growth you can also do special tricks. Through Animal Lord you normally can only affect 1 animal. However, with the Chain Spell feat you can grow that 1 plus 7 more. Eight giant warbred, fanatic beasts.

Any one of these dogs can be the main attacker, granting you a +4 flanking bonus thanks to Vexing Flanker. You then return the favor with your Vanguard Strike and Iron Guard's Glare. Remember that dogs all have trip attacks. Symbiotic relationship to the max.

Here's something fun to do as well. Get a harpoon and tie the attaching rope (this is part of the weapon) around your giant fanatic. Have them go in opposite directions. Now hurl, or, if you can reach, jab them with the harpoon. Command the dogs to pull and then stop. The figure is now unable to move. At all. He can remove the harpoon, but he now takes all the original damage. In fact, you might even want to try this again with another few dogs. You control the dogs, they control the ropes, the rope controls your opponent. Take him wherever you wish. Maybe keep jabbing them in (at least several dogs need to hold a few harpoons on their persons) if it's a very strong creature. Get enough and not even a dragon can hope to get away.

Oh, and I didn't mention the War Sled. Yeah, ride-by attacks are FUN. In fact, have the entire pack move with it. Ride skill is equivalent to AC as well, so you can turn them away from a potential attack.


The Pack

Brolly's pack includes Riding Dogs, Dire Wolves, Wolves, and Arctic Foxes.

Dire Wolves are the elite guard of Brolly's army and tend to be the ones in charge of pulling his warsled.

Arctic Foxes are the sneaks of the army. They go looking about, fetch an item, and return with it.

Wolves are the hunters and trackers.

Riding Dogs are the common people of the group, though all can be called upon to perform practically any service. The overwhelming majority of the pack is riding dogs.



Training
Every canine can be taught 6 tricks. However, because of Brolly's Handle Animal skills he can 'push' any of the animals to perform near any service of which they are physically able.

Every canine has the following tricks known:
Attack
Defend
Teamwork (awareness & mass charge)

The other three tricks is specific to the canine itself, and some Brolly has trained for specific tasks. However, certain types he generally trains as the following:

Riding Dog - Guard, Perform, Stay
Arctic Fox - Fetch, Hide, Seek
Wolf - Down, Seek, Track
Dire Wolf - Down, Guard, Work

Warbeast Riding Dog stats
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+12 (25 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 50 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +10, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +5, Survival +2*
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Track (B),
Challenge Rating: 1

Combat
If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.

Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+1 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.

Skills: Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.

*Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

Warbeast Wolf stats
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+12 (25 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +3, Hide +2, Listen +5, Move Silently +3, Spot +5, Survival +2*
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Track(B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: 4–6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

Trip (Ex): A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+3 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.

Skills: *Wolves have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

Warbred Dire Wolf
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 7d8+35 (66 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+18
Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+13)
Full Attack: Bite +14 melee (1d8+13)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +7
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +3, Hide +0, Listen +7, Move Silently +4, Spot +7, Survival +2*
Feats: Alertness, Run, Track(B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Challenge Rating: 3

Trip (Ex): A dire wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+13 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the dire wolf.

Skills: A dire wolf has a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks.

*It also has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


Note: Now, Animal Lord is not the strongest of the PrC's, and many of its abilities can be duplicated elsewhere. Animals also aren't the strongest things in creation, but Animal Lord lords over animals, thus though I could make a stronger class using undead or constructs, when it comes to animals, Brolly ain't a slob. The way I've used it here is the strongest I can come up with and remain true to the nature of the PrC and using its levels. Please consider that when determining its strength.




Sources

Complete Adventurer
Animal Lord class
Natural Bond feat

Complete Arcane
Chain Spell feat
Practiced Spellcaster feat

Frostburn
Arctic fox creature
Harpoon weapon
Warsled transport
Runners of Speed item

Magic of Eberron
Leap Into Animal spell

Magic Item Compendium
Collar of Healing, Enemy Spirit Pouch, Lantern of Revealing, and Troll Gut Rope items

Masters of the Wild
Animal Control feat
Animal Defiance feat

Player's Handbook 3.5
Ranger class

Player's Handbook II
Teamwork trick (Handle Animal)
Vexing Flanker feat

Tome of Battle
Crusader class

Monster Manual II
Ash Rat creature
Warbeast template

Unearthed Arcana
Ranger Simple Variant (http://dndsrd.net/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-ranger)

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:34 PM
That's the last of 'em.

On your mark, get set, judge!

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-09, 08:49 PM
Aww, was hoping to see a shark lord. Almost made one but ended up liking my other better.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-09, 08:56 PM
Aww, was hoping to see a shark lord. Almost made one but ended up liking my other better.

Apelord and Horselord were also ignored. Still, 7 entries using 5 different versions between them is variety enough.

Amphetryon
2010-08-09, 09:20 PM
Apelord and Horselord were also ignored. Still, 7 entries using 5 different versions between them is variety enough.

I considered a Horselord for a while.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-09, 09:46 PM
I did too! I wanted to make the fastest character I could, but then I realized that he wasn't too optimal or flavorful...just fast. It was rather underwhelming.

Draz74
2010-08-09, 09:48 PM
I considered a Horselord for a while.

Yeah, I did too. I thought it was one of the easier aspects to optimize, since its Wild Aspect lasts for hours instead of rounds; you could make a pretty speedy character with Horselord.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-09, 09:56 PM
I was tinkering with a duskblade for the horselord--run in, wail your enemy, and get out of range before they can say ouch. It just lacked soul.

dextercorvia
2010-08-09, 10:01 PM
I saw all three of my best ideas represented (better than I would have). My first thought when I saw Animal Lord, was Bear Warrior 5 fits nicely in there. I also, considered Primeval for a time, but the shifting mechanic was clunkier than BW's, even if it is more versatile. The build that I had settled on focused on getting a Wild Cohort pumped up. Every time I read the class though, I missed the line about stacking for AC advancement, so I never even considered Beastlord until I read the entries just now. Why did they have to hide that after the crap about bonus to Handle Animal?

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 12:23 AM
Man, if I would have entered, I would have totally stacked Apelord with Girallon Claws bound to my Shoulder to get rend twice. Claw Claw SPLURT!

WinWin
2010-08-10, 01:11 AM
I briefly considered and Anthromorphic Ape Ranger/Apelord with Italian plumbers as a favoured enemy. The levels in Hulking Hurler kind of overshadowed the build.

DanReiv
2010-08-10, 03:54 AM
Got the sharklord but it was so dumb I didn't submitted :smallbiggrin: Relied on "custom" magic item to make it breathe air and stuff. Fiendish template for the PC to get fiendish grafts, especially wings.

Ended up with either a fiendish goliath (for druid ACF, and a burrowing shark animal companion) or a fiendish tri-kreen for some mounted combat delirium.

Anyways, I liked the idea of a flying, air breathing, possibly burrowing shark to serve as a mount for a druid creating wall of water in which he summons moar sharks.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-10, 06:19 AM
Anyways, I liked the idea of a flying, air breathing, possibly burrowing shark to serve as a mount for a druid creating wall of water in which he summons moar sharks.
http://i36.tinypic.com/10mvuk7.jpg

Amphetryon
2010-08-10, 08:38 AM
Man, if I would have entered, I would have totally stacked Apelord with Girallon Claws bound to my Shoulder to get rend twice. Claw Claw SPLURT!

Just as a thought, since nobody used Apelord:

Barbarian 3/Totemist 3/Apelord 10/Totem Rager 4.

EDIT: Hadozee race.

Adumbration
2010-08-10, 09:22 AM
I too planned a Raptoran Birdlord, but gave up after I realized that 10 levels in Stormtalon would be pretty much 5 times more efficient in getting what I wanted.

Amphetryon
2010-08-10, 09:26 AM
I too planned a Raptoran Birdlord, but gave up after I realized that 10 levels in Stormtalon would be pretty much 5 times more efficient in getting what I wanted.

That sounds like a common concern for all the Animal Lords in this contest, relative to other Base Classes or PrCs. :smallsmile:

OMG PONIES
2010-08-10, 09:29 AM
I'm now picturing a halfling ranger/paladin/horselord/halfling outrider with Devoted Tracker and Natural Bond...it's My Little Pony of Justice!

mcl01
2010-08-10, 09:38 AM
Yeah, pretty much my problem. Only build I could think of was optimizing the full BAB progression and full Animal Companion progression. I was thinking about a build, but it turned out to be way too feat intensive. I was trying to capitalize on Animal Lord's full animal companion progression vs ranger's half progression.

Ranger 4/Scout 5/Beastmaster 1/Birdlord 10

Essentially for the first 9-10 levels, a Swift Hunter archery build with a hatred towards arcanists. RPing the Ranger's weak animal companion (owl) bond as causing its death, causing him to desire a greater bond with his next companion (manifesting in the beastmaster dip at level 6 to nab a dire eagle companion).

He has a powerful companion that begins to lag behind once he finishes off his scout levels, but picks up again once he hits birdlord. Ends with effective 19 druid levels for AC with Natural Bond. 18 BAB. Solves full-attack skirmish issues through mounted archery (not necessarily with the feat, however). Only problem was pumping up damage more. TWFing Hand Crossbows with Ranged Weapon Mastery, Crossbow Sniper, Rapidshot, and Splitting enchantment was very nice, but ended up being way too feat intensive without fighter/rogue dipping for extra feats.

Trouvere
2010-08-10, 09:46 AM
That sounds like a common concern for all the Animal Lords in this contest, relative to other Base Classes or PrCs. :smallsmile:What you need to do, says the guy who's never going to enter this contest for lack of optimizing chops, is squint and turn your head sideways, and suddenly instead of trying to make a powerful/unique/interesting character that uses Animal Lord, you're trying to make the most powerful/unique/interesting Animal Lord you can - which is subtly not quite the same thing at all.

mjames
2010-08-10, 10:15 AM
Aww man, it was just shark week too... No ubercharger sharks?

Draz74
2010-08-10, 10:45 AM
That sounds like a common concern for all the Animal Lords in this contest, relative to other Base Classes or PrCs. :smallsmile:

Hmmm, I disagree. I don't think my entry (I'm not saying which one it is) would be able to do its thing as well if you replaced its Animal Lord levels with any other class.

IdleMuse
2010-08-10, 10:48 AM
Hmm, somewhat glad I didn't submit now, my Snakelord build wasn't really up to scratch compared to the couple that ended up here.

Amphetryon
2010-08-10, 11:02 AM
Hmmm, I disagree. I don't think my entry (I'm not saying which one it is) would be able to do its thing as well if you replaced its Animal Lord levels with any other class.

I look forward to the explanation of how this is so. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Note that in my comment, I said 'common' and not 'universal.'

true_shinken
2010-08-10, 11:34 AM
My judgings. I will add'em one at a time... for added suspense.
Bertran Urrni
Originality: 4. I knew I'd see at least one Raptoran Birdlord. Cancer Mage did surprise me, though.
Power: 2.5 Targets immune to poison or disease or precision damage (all are pretty common, and usually they have all three) are immune to Bertran. Even then, he deals low damage and defeats opponents by wearing them down slowly. You say 'poison and disease make him too dangerous to close with'... but that's not true. Poison and disease are easy to heal once you get rid of Bertran and he has very little in the way of defense. A bit more Wis synergy would have done you good.
Elegance: 2.5. The build looks wonky to me. It's not party-friendly at all. I think I maybe should have given a lower score, but somehoe I think 3 is okay. Also, your backstory was very long and I did not really like it, though I didn't take any points for that.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4. You really built it around Animal Lord and found synergy in Cancer Mage.


Sway
Originality: 5. LA always surprises me in Iron Chef. Racial Hit Dice are always 'OMG!'... and I have a thing for yuan-tis. Surprised me in a very good way. And... a Bard? Cloaked Dancer?! You blew my mind here. Excellent.
Power: 5. I think you might even have underestimated your own build. You are very versatile and Soul Eater adds A LOT
Elegance: 3.5. Everything meshes perfectly. If not for the ECL 20 thing, I would have given you even more here. I like the mechanical and thematic synergies.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.5. I like what you did and you indeed benefit from Animal Lord; it is without a doubt integral to the build, improving the tricks you picked up elsewhere. Very, very good. Congrats.

Firstbear Bearfist
Originality: 1. People have been talking about this in this forum for months now.
Power: 5. It's among the strongest non-dubious melee builds.
Elegance: 3. I have a few issues with Deepwarden + Fist of the Forest. Lord of the underground forests...?
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. It contributes to the bear theme, if nothing else.

The twisted tales of Felix, the twisted tales of Felix, the twisted tales of Felix the cat...
Originality: 3.5. You use a lot of well-known tricks, but reminding Felix the cat put a smile in my face.
Power: 5. I'm handing out a lot of 5s this time around, based on my expectations for animal lord... but you use known tricks because they work, after all.
Elegance: 2.5 Four base classes and a dip in prestige class... I dislike the Lawful alignment also; it does not seem to fit the cat theme... the psychoactive skin is also in this category.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3. It contributes to the cat theme, progresses an an animal companion and allows you to make him big. It's not the focus of the build, but it helps somewhat.

Ruszel
Originality: 3.5. Well, you created an organization. This adds a few points. The rest is pretty standard. More beastmaster, more factotum, yadda yadda.
Power: 3.5. He is not a powerhouse, but he has a lot of tricks.
Elegance: 5. I'm sure you expected a hit here, but since you explained your flaws so honestly and did it more for flavor than anything else, I think you deserve a 5 here more than any other contestant.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4. You used the class to fit your theme, not the other way around. That's something I really like. Excellent.

Urog
Originality: 4.5. OK, it surprised me. It's almost an owlbear in PC form.
Power: 4.5. Most of expected melee's fighting prowess... with built-in flight. Useful. Solid. You already mentioned the shortcomings of low Int, so I'll leave it at that.
Elegance: 2. Yeah, that's low. Primeval (dire eagle) surprised me but seems a bit out of place. A bearlord that decides to become an eagle? That's... strange. The kind of thing I wouldn't OK in a game I DM'ed.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4. Animal Lord is needed for your intended fighting style.

Brolly
Originality: 5. Using Animal Power to become some kind of god? Unexpected.
Power: 3.5. The build is not really that powerful, since it depends on the pack and the pack is really squishy.
Elegance: 2.5. While very interesting, it's not a build that would actually fly in most games.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 5. You really use Animal Lord to the fullest and it is without a doubt the core of the build.

Judging done!

9mm
2010-08-10, 01:36 PM
Burtram Urrni

Originality: cancer mage? cleric? can’t say I was expecting those. 4

Power: 3 is this guy a very good scout, heck yeah. do I personally feel he can do more than that, not really. I have real concerns that he will be able to maintain the distance he needs, even with his summons.

Elegance: 2: hello random cleric dip, and hello thought out scout dip too.

Secret ingredient: 2: you used all 10 levels, I’ll give you that; however go back and read you descriptions of what your build can do, your only mention of birdlord ablities is to call them superlative: how then is birdlord critical to this build, and not Cancer Mage which you constantly rave about?


Sway

Originality: Psi Yaun Ti, nature bard, CLOAKED DANCER?! 5.

Power: 4; social kombat and ambush is thy game, and you do it with scary efficiency, the inclusion of roblairs and def sweep lets you, in theory, rack up poison hits. sadly you’ll have to rely on your bite for this, however props for remembering the triple capsule for your weapon, I feel very bad for whoever you ambush.

Elegance: 5: your taking a hit for the blatant soul eater dip, but that is blunted by A) it fits the rest of your build nicely, and B) your comprehensive presentation.

Secret ingredient: 4: you make the most of it’s abilities to complement your ambushing strategies, and supplement your main form of attack, poison. very well done.

Fistbear Bearfist

Originality: I want to give you 5, I really do, this is just too funny and cool. unfortunately there’s a unbearable little gnome in my my head screaming that this was bear centric build was bound to happen and I’ve seen the general basis of the build before and I can’t shut him up. 3

Power: its a beary beardfist, I highly doubt there are many things you can’t just maul to death. 4

Ellegance. 3; your dip-tastic, they synergise well, but still, dips are everywhere.

Secret ingredient: 3: you only grab 5 levels, and those levels don’t really add anything besides sticking another bear into your build and becoming legal for the contest. strong presentation helped you here.

Felix

Originality: 2: I loved the old felix the cat cartoons! sadly this isn’t him. bonus points for interesting story though.

Power: 1 what exactly does this build DO? you give a list of indivuidual tricks but do not spell out how the relate to eachother as a coheasive whole.

Ellegance: 1 dips, dips, and more dips

Secret Ingredient: 2 you took all 10 levels, however since you don’t bother explaining a damn thing; thats the best I can give.
Also note the following: I expect participants to explain IN DETAIL everything you feel your build can do, and failure to do so will result in a lot of 0-2s in all scores

Ruzel:

Originality: I was expecting assisn + snakelord, so 3.

power: 2, In my experience you are vastly overestimating how much you can do with just standstill in combat, if Ruzel ever gets into a situation he can’t talk out of, he’d be in ALOT of trouble. he can sneak in well enough, it’s getting out that will be the problem.

Elegance: 3 Uncanny trickster to take snakelord is exceptiable, but blatent assin dip is a ding to the score:

Secret Ingredient: 2 I’m going to be blunt; it feels tacked onto a very unfocused build. maybe its cause you ran out of time; but I cannot see why he had to be a snakelord and not say moar factotum or other skill trick boosting class.

Urog:

Originality: you used a PRC I’ve never heard of. 4

Power: once again, I am unsure of what you can’t quite just flat out maul to death. also, I love the snatch get around. 4

Elegance: no real dips that I can see what so ever, this build advances quite simplely. and I rather like that. 5

Use of secret ingrediant: 4 taking a hit due to not taking all 10 levels by my count.

Brolly:

Originality: oh diplomacy, is their nothing you can’t do? 4

Power: your power is directly related to how many pooches you have with you but still you should overcome any land based threat. 4

Elegance: 4.dinged do to tacked on crusader.

Use of Ingredient: 5; you built this character with the abilities in mind, to make you into a god of the pack. very well done.

true_shinken
2010-08-10, 01:49 PM
Looks like Sway is leading by quite a few points.

Draz74
2010-08-10, 02:17 PM
Looks like Sway is leading by quite a few points.

Yeah, about that -- there's a lot about Sway that's impressive, but isn't LA Buyoff an optional rule from UA, and therefore explicitly against the rules of Iron Chef? I would think that would be a massive penalty to Elegance.

EDIT: I haven't opened all the [spoilers] to read all the details on Sway, so I'm probably going to have to stick my foot in my mouth when it turns out one of them was hiding a comment that the last couple levels of the build are just "bonus material," and it stands on its own even without them ...

dextercorvia
2010-08-10, 04:30 PM
Yeah, about that -- there's a lot about Sway that's impressive, but isn't LA Buyoff an optional rule from UA, and therefore explicitly against the rules of Iron Chef? I would think that would be a massive penalty to Elegance.

EDIT: I haven't opened all the [spoilers] to read all the details on Sway, so I'm probably going to have to stick my foot in my mouth when it turns out one of them was hiding a comment that the last couple levels of the build are just "bonus material," and it stands on its own even without them ...

Yeah, I was expecting her to take a hit on excellence for that.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-10, 04:36 PM
Yeah, I was expecting her to take a hit on excellence for that.

Incidentally, so was Sway's entrant.

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 05:00 PM
Sway's creater did indeed note this:


Hmmm. No XP cap this round? At effective level 12, character will spend 11 k xp and reduce LA. 3 levels later, 14k to remove LA completely.

Having been a DM for a level 1-25 campaign, I have noticed that a lower XP total is not that much of a disadvantage. In fact, lower level characters earn XP at a faster rate. This disparity is marked when facing high EL challenges. The major reason I submitted an ECL 20 build is because of WBL. In a campaign, this character would likely only be a few encounters behind the rest of the paty when they hit level 20. They would also have the majority of the gear befitting a level 20 character. Rather than submit a level 19 and a half character, I decided to submit a level 20. Penalise this build if you must, but realise that the 23k XP reduction would likely have been reduced to around 10k or less by level 20.

Draz74
2010-08-10, 05:33 PM
Sway's creater did indeed note this:

That note makes it sound like an ECL 10, Level 7 build (with +3 LA) receives XP like a Level 7 character, not like a Level 10 character. Which is not the case. :smallconfused:

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 05:44 PM
No, I think he was making reference to the fact that after you buy off the LA, you'll gain XP faster.

So a level 9 character with +3 LA (ECL12) earns xp as a 12th level character, but after buying off the LA, he'll be a 9th level character with a +2 LA (ECL11) and earn increased XP due to the lower ECL against higher level challenges.

At least that's how I interpretted his language, which matches up with the rules in UA.

Still, LA buyoff is not really something that has been traditionally looked upon favorably in IO, as I read back on old threads.

Draz74
2010-08-10, 06:06 PM
No, I think he was making reference to the fact that after you buy off the LA, you'll gain XP faster.

So a level 9 character with +3 LA (ECL12) earns xp as a 12th level character, but after buying off the LA, he'll be a 9th level character with a +2 LA (ECL11) and earn increased XP due to the lower ECL against higher level challenges.

At least that's how I interpretted his language, which matches up with the rules in UA.

Ah, gotcha. Yes, LA Buyoff, if allowed, does work that way.

9mm
2010-08-10, 06:39 PM
Incidentally, so was Sway's entrant.

LA Buyoff has been a staple in optimization for years, though with the typical judging pool's fluctuating tolerances, I can understand the assumption over the loss of points.

Cieyrin
2010-08-10, 07:23 PM
Aww, was hoping to see a shark lord. Almost made one but ended up liking my other better.

I was going to do a Darfellan Barbarian/Sharklord/Dire Shark Primeval/Warshaper but ran out of time/couldn't get it to do more than being a beatstick with a massive bite attack. The Animal Growthed Dire Shark Wild Cohort was kinda nice, though...

dextercorvia
2010-08-10, 09:35 PM
Yeah, I was expecting her to take a hit on excellence for that.

Bah. Dumb typosthoughtos. I meant elegance of course.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-11, 12:58 AM
I have 3 entries judged, and should be able to finish the others tomorrow evening. I should have scores up after some brief proofreading Thursday morning.

This comes, however, with the light caveat that I'm currently in the jury duty pool. Realistically, however, I don't think they're even going to make me go in this round. This is good. That last one was a week long trial, and it was very boring.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-11, 10:48 AM
Notice a quite bit of critique with 'dips'. What is the definition of a 'dip' and what usages qualifies it to be unfavorable?


Looks like Sway is leading by quite a few points.
3-4 points from 2nd and 3rd place using Prinny's 'add'em all up' rules. As the rest are still spread out from 6-12 points from 3rd, this is still easily anyone's game :smallcool:


I was going to do a Darfellan Barbarian/Sharklord/Dire Shark Primeval/Warshaper but ran out of time/couldn't get it to do more than being a beatstick with a massive bite attack. The Animal Growthed Dire Shark Wild Cohort was kinda nice, though...
That could have been interesting, but I don't like the flavor of a darfellan shark lord. Darfellans are like whale shifters, and whales and sharks are at extreme odds with each other. Darfellans even have racial bonuses against shark people.

Now, what I wish was an option was 'weasel lord' for dire weasels and and wolverines. That'd have been awesome.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-11, 10:56 AM
Notice a quite bit of critique with 'dips'. What is the definition of a 'dip' and what usages qualifies it to be unfavorable?

I would like to know this as well. Is there a minimum number of levels before something is no longer considered a dip, but instead a lap or a nice leisurely swim? Does flavor/backstory play into it?

I know it will probably vary from judge to judge, but I'd like to hear from each of them what their criteria for "dipping" are. While most of them warn against it in their overall guidelines, there seem to be no hard-and-fast "take at least X levels or else it's a dip" rules.

At the very least, I've learned a lot more about what the judges (or at least these judges) are looking for, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next contest!

Amphetryon
2010-08-11, 11:11 AM
Now, what I wish was an option was 'weasel lord' for dire weasels and and wolverines. That'd have been awesome.
A PrC that granted a dire weasel's "attach" ability sounds extremely cool, worthwhile, and unusual.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-11, 11:14 AM
A PrC that granted a dire weasel's "attach" ability sounds extremely cool, worthwhile, and unusual.
Definitely, or a wolverine's rage would add to things as well (a wolverine being a weasel as well) for barbarian builds.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-11, 11:45 AM
Weasel Lord

Requirements
Skills: Survival +4
Feats: Diehard

-=-=-=-=-

Animal Bond
Weasels: Weasels, badgers, wolverines and dire varieties

First Totem: +4 to Survival

Wild Aspect: A weasel lord gains a tenacious bite as a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 for small weasel lords). If a weasel lord hits with its bite attack he can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If the opponent is 1 or more sizes larger, and successfully bitten, the weasel lord can instead latch on without making a grapple check. An attached weasel lord loses his Dexterity bonus to AC. An attached weasel lord can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached weasel lord weasel through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against him.

At 7th level the weasel lord may drain blood from his opponent, dealing 1d4 points of constitution damage (1d3 for small weasel lords) per round he remains attached.

Summon Animal: 1d3 dire wolverines, 1d4+1 dire badgers, dire weasels or wolverines

Second Totem: Weasel Lord - Improved Toughness or Extra Rage

Third Totem: Weasel Lord +2 Constitution

Hippopotamus Lord

Requirements
Skills: Swim +4
Feats: Power Attack

-=-=-=-=-

Animal Bond
Hippopotami: Hippos and dire hippos

First Totem: +4 to Swim

Wild Aspect: A hippo lord gains a bite as a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 for small hippo lords).

At 7th level the hippo lord function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever a hippo-lord is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), he is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A hippo-lord is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A hippo-lord cannot use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. As well, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. These benefits stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Summon Animal: 1 hippopotamus

Second Totem: Hippo Lord - Improved Overrun

Third Totem: Hippo Lord +2 Strength

Frog Lord

Requirements
Skills: Jump +4
Feats: Leap of the Heavens (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Leap_Of_The_Heavens)

-=-=-=-=-

Animal Bond
Amphibians: Frogs, toads, and dire toads (MM II)

First Totem: +4 to Jump

Wild Aspect: A frog lord gains a special tongue attack. This acts as a 10 ft. ranged touch attack. If a frog lord hits with its tongue attack he can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If the frog lord establishes a hold, and the opponent is 1 size category less or smaller, it can attempt to swallow it's opponent whole.

A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal damage equal to 1/4th the normal hit point total of the frog lord. The Armor Class of the interior of a frog lord is 12 + 1/2 its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A frog lord may only hold 1 creature at a time.

A frog lord also gains the ability to breathe water while his wild aspect is active.

At 7th level those swallowed by a frog lord also take acid damage each round equal to 1d6 + frog lord's con mod.

Summon Animal: 1d4+1 dire toads

Second Totem: Frog Lord - Flying Fish Leap (http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Flying_Fish_Leap)

Third Totem: Frog Lord +2 Constitution

Kesnit
2010-08-11, 12:02 PM
I would like to know this as well. Is there a minimum number of levels before something is no longer considered a dip, but instead a lap or a nice leisurely swim? Does flavor/backstory play into it?

I'm not judging this one, but I do plan to judge again in the future, so I'll go ahead and answer.

1-2 levels is a dip. 4+ levels is not a dip. 3 levels is where I have to sit and look at the back story (which I give a lot of weight to), what the character is getting from those 3 levels, or getting / not getting from not taking more levels, and the rest of the build. In most cases, 3 levels would not be counted as a dip in my mind, but it is always possible I will count it as a dip.

Keld Denar
2010-08-11, 12:02 PM
I know it will probably vary from judge to judge, but I'd like to hear from each of them what their criteria for "dipping" are. While most of them warn against it in their overall guidelines, there seem to be no hard-and-fast "take at least X levels or else it's a dip" rules.

I hinted in my criteria that a dip would be a counter-thematic, unrelated, and unprogressed investment of a 1 or more levels for the expressed purpose of gaining a couple of class features. I wouldn't count a person down for splashing Barbarian in a Fighter or Ranger build, but I would mark them down for dipping Cleric or Bard and leaving that 1 level of casting stranded. If that casting was later progressed in some form to a semi-respectable level, it might be forgiven. Likewise, a non-casting dip in a casting centric build would be ill advised unless it was needed to qualify for a hybred PrC of some sort. PrCs are dipable if they continue the theme. IE, I don't consider Spellsword1 a dip in a build that contains Abjurant Champion, as they are essentially the same PrC with very similar prereqs, mechanics, and goals. Also, I've mentioned a pretty soft limit of ~6 classes total, between base classes and PrCs. Any more than that, especially in the realm of this contest where the SI should be showcased, and you run the risk of diluting things too much. Of course, exceptions to this are possible if things fit together well, but in general try to stay at 6 or less.

These are only my criteria though, other judges might not be as forgiving.

I should probably start my judging today. Yea...that would be a good idea.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-11, 12:47 PM
Also added Hippo and Frog lord to the above.


These are only my criteria though, other judges might not be as forgiving.
I find those rules very fair.


I should probably start my judging today. Yea...that would be a good idea.
I concur :smallwink:


1-2 levels is a dip. 4+ levels is not a dip. 3 levels is where I have to sit and look at the back story (which I give a lot of weight to), what the character is getting from those 3 levels, or getting / not getting from not taking more levels, and the rest of the build. In most cases, 3 levels would not be counted as a dip in my mind, but it is always possible I will count it as a dip.
But would the dip be given a negative scoring? For instance my previous entry Starry-Eyes used a single level of Keeper of the Cerulean Sign because thematically it fit very well and she'd made the most of her other classes.

A dip that makes no sense and is just grabbing for a cheap boost is one thing, but if it fits and compliments the build I'd have problems understanding why it would be scored a reduction.

true_shinken
2010-08-11, 12:58 PM
On the subject of Sway's elegance, I didn't take any points because the creator was very honest explaining what he did and why he did it. In a real game, LA-buyoff would make him only about 10,000XP (if that many) short of LA 20 if he was adventuring in an adequate level party facing adequate level challenges.
The build is very elegant otherwise, so I saw no reason to punish it. Of course, other judges might disagree.

Keld Denar
2010-08-11, 12:59 PM
Oh Tribble...I could do such dirty nasty things with a few PsyWar levels leading in to Frog Lord. Oh lordy, hide the children, it would be scary.

As a side note, what happens if you dismiss Expansion while you have someone swallowed whole? I'd imagine it would be messy and rather uncomfortable for the both of ya...

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-11, 01:39 PM
As a side note, what happens if you dismiss Expansion while you have someone swallowed whole? I'd imagine it would be messy and rather uncomfortable for the both of ya...
Heh, dunno, Wizard's says what happens if you expand while in a small place, but never mention what happens if you shrink. As a DM I'd rule you would instinctively regurgitate as you shrunk.

Amphetryon
2010-08-11, 04:20 PM
1-2 levels is a dip. 4+ levels is not a dip. 3 levels is where I have to sit and look at the back story (which I give a lot of weight to), what the character is getting from those 3 levels, or getting / not getting from not taking more levels, and the rest of the build. In most cases, 3 levels would not be counted as a dip in my mind, but it is always possible I will count it as a dip.
Just so I'm clear here, that means that a hypothetical Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2 built for 2 light weapons/Ranger 2/Fighter 2 would get penalized?

WinWin
2010-08-11, 05:16 PM
I guess some dips are regarded as more acceptable than others. Mindbender 1 comes to mind. Base classes are probably more acceptable than Prestige classes, at least that is how I have experienced it in the games I have run/played.

How else does one qualify for the likes of Fochlucan Lyrist without a lot of dips?

Cieyrin
2010-08-11, 06:38 PM
That could have been interesting, but I don't like the flavor of a darfellan shark lord. Darfellans are like whale shifters, and whales and sharks are at extreme odds with each other. Darfellans even have racial bonuses against shark people.

True, though as they're based off of Orcas, a.k.a. Killer Whales, I'd think you could work with it. Plus, it could totally be using the weapons of the enemy against them type deal. Also, the Sahuagin aren't really all that sharky, other than the blood frenzy bit. I mean, look at those guys: http://darkseeds.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/sahuagin.jpg
Hardly sharky at all. They're like feral Locathah at best.

Draz74
2010-08-11, 07:12 PM
Yeah, I think a whale-man Sharklord could work fine, either with some refluffing or with a backstory about him being a turncoat, like the Benedict Arnold of the sea.

Kesnit
2010-08-11, 07:31 PM
But would the dip be given a negative scoring? For instance my previous entry Starry-Eyes used a single level of Keeper of the Cerulean Sign because thematically it fit very well and she'd made the most of her other classes.

A dip that makes no sense and is just grabbing for a cheap boost is one thing, but if it fits and compliments the build I'd have problems understanding why it would be scored a reduction.

When I think of dipping, I think of taking a class for the cheap boost. If it fits the theme, I would not lower the score.


Just so I'm clear here, that means that a hypothetical Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2 built for 2 light weapons/Ranger 2/Fighter 2 would get penalized?

See above.

Same goes for qualifying for PrCs that require 2 classes. For example, the Daggerspell Mage I am playing in NWN2 is a Rogue 1 / SORC 5 to start. Rogue 1 isn't a dip because DSM is a Rogue / Arcane combo.

Draz74
2010-08-11, 11:54 PM
Got the sharklord but it was so dumb I didn't submitted :smallbiggrin: Relied on "custom" magic item to make it breathe air and stuff.

For future reference: Check out Gilled Armor, MIC p.11.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-12, 06:04 AM
It's Judging Time!

Criteria and General Judging Notes:
For reference, my judging criteria as stated before the competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9059776&postcount=8).

My default expectation for originality was a martial character with an animal companion and perhaps limited spellcasting. Something generally similar in tone to a Ranger.

I was actively expecting a build that that used Wildshape Ranger and Beastmaster (though a couple came close, none hit this mark).

My base expectation on power was a low Tier 4.

As a note on scoring, my criteria originally listed under power that I would add points for "particularly innovative synergy." While that is still in play, it also occurred to my while scoring these that synergy that is effective, but not necessarily innovative, isn't a bad thing from a power perspective. As such, it will also be awarded a base of +0.5 points in the power category.

Bertram (12 Composite, 3 average)
General Comments:
I liked the general concept here very much: I think for the most part you sold the idea. The attempt to build a Birdlord towards an aspects of birds that isn't immediately forthcoming from the class features was in impressive goal.
I think, however, that your capacity and your resonance as a character would be significantly improved by further augmenting your summons (or other similar capacities) in either quantity or power. Depending on how the DM adjudicated it, Birdlord 8 might have been appropriate for the Animal Telepathy feature. Otherwise, you would have been significantly better leaving the class at 5 and seeking a class that better served to let you use your summons both in combat and as agents to spread contagion. Ultimately, the choice to go Birdlord 10 (which I presume was done solely because it was the secret ingredient) hurt you more than it helped.

Originality: 4

The use of cancer mage with Birdlord was thematically inspired and unexpected (+.5, ad hoc)
Best in Category (+.5)


Power: 3

Given the elements of the build other than Birdlord--particularly the combination of druid and cancer mage, I would generally expect this character to be a martial combatant with supportive spell-casting. Essentially, the same role as a gish with fairly unusual methods of getting there. This strikes me in general as a low to mid tier 3 character, a significantly more powerful prospect than my default assumption. (+1)
Ultimately however, you don't invest enough in any of the other classes to truely expand your basic role. You end up as a scout with only the most minimal of support spellcasting and special abilities. The focus on disease and poison will give you some interesting new options, which are likely to hit immunity late game, they're not really reliable enough to say they make you significantly more powerful. You also seem to overestimate your summon: your capacity thereto is fairly limited for direct mechanical use. In short, you aim high, but you end up more or less where one would expect a Bird Lord to be.(-1)


Elegance: 2.5

The emphasis on disease (and to a lesser extent poison) is well suited to the concept of pigeons as a dirty animals. It's a particularly innovative and solid theme. (+1)
Cancer mage is something that often sets off more conservative DMs (-.5). However, since the class is used conservatively and it's not often outright banned, I'm giving further penalty.
The strengths of the character focus on him being an advanced agent even more so than a scout, which can be somewhat disruptive if the DM doesn't tailor for it. It's a workable propisition, but the DM will have to work it.(-.5)
I can't seem to find a particular reason as to why you split scout for cleric or delay final level of cancer mage until you're a couple levels into Birdlord. (-.5)


Use of Special Ingredient:2.5

Role of the actual abilities of Birdlord are fairly ancillary. (-.5)
While a scout build will get decent mileage out of some Bird Lord, it could (and this build probably would) reasonably function with less of it (-.5)
You use all 10 levels of Birdlord (+.5)




Sway (15 Composite, 3.75 Average)

General Notes:
I liked both the focus on the Social finesse and the Bard ACF. The inclusion of Cloaked Dancer was also pleasant surprise. It's worth noting here that this is probably the only build where I didn't immediately think taking all 10 levels of animal lord was a mistake. Ultimately, +2 Cha is simply more relevant to this build than +2 Con or +2 Str is to many others.

Originality: 3.5

The build focused more heavily on social finesse and skill use than I was expecting: I was certainly expecting at least some skill monkey/combat finesse builds, but the emphasis on cloaked dancer moves the social aspect out of the realm on simple skill effects and into the realm of class features (much in the realm of the bard abilities the contestant chose to forgo for the ACF). (+.5)



Power: 4

The elements of the build trend towards a proficient social combat character. If it weren't for the large LA (even with buyoff) I would be tempted to peg this as a low tier 3 character (as I imagine you would have progressed the bard casting a little further). As it is, it strikes me as a high tier 4.(+.5)
You end up pretty much where you would expect of such a build (0)
The ACF bard was a particularly insightful way to get the animal companion for this build: for a socially focused build, it's probably strictly superior to the other options used in the competition (+.5)

Elegance: 3

All the elements of the build seem to work well thematically. (+.5)
The LA buyout is something a conservative DM may not be happy with. I also don't think you'll get back quite the XP you think unless the awards are per encounter, which his only one of many supported methods. This is, in my opinion, about as big of a potential issue as flaw use.(-1)
The character should be reasonably functional without disrupting most tables. (+.5)

Use of Special Ingredient: 4.5

The Snakelord levels reinforce the chosen role well. (+.5)
You use all 10 levels of Snakelord (+.5)
While the build could reasonably function without the last two levels of Snakelord, it does make decent use of them, which was an exception this round of competition (+.5)



Fistbear Bearfist (11.5 Composite, 2.875 Average)

General Notes:
This is more or less exactly the kind of character I was expecting from the Secret Ingredient. Interestingly enough, however, by taking more powerful options to represent the idea, you trivialized the role of Bear Lord to a large degree.

Originality: 1.5

It fulfills the basic role I expected for the special ingredient to a tee(-.5)
This one's been done. Quite possibly by you, but it's not an innovative concept at this point. Put another way, I wasn't expecting this precise build, but I was expecting this character (-1, ad hoc).

Power: 4.5

The build has pretty much the same scope as my base expectation: you're a frontliner with an animal companion. That's usually a low tier 4 (+0)
You are, however, significantly more competent because of how you build. You're still almost exclusively a frontline combatant, but you're probably as good as you can be in that roll without dipping into the truly smelly cheese. (+.5)
The mechanical synergy of the build is particularly effective (+.5)
Best in Category (+.5)

Elegance: 4

The build is thematically well suited to the concept. (+.5)
The build should be fairly non-disruptive in play. (+.5)

Use of Special Ingredient:1.5

Despite thematic ties, the abilities of Bearlord aren't particularly central to the build (-5.)
Realistically, you would do far better with 5 levels in something else (-1)



Felix (12.5 Composite, 3.125 Average)
General Comments: Ahh, Felix the Cat. I remember him vaguely and with reluctance, since when he was on I was a small child living in a mobile home with parents who never should have married and who only didn't drown out Felix's adventures when they were under the influence. Ahh, them's the days.
In all seriousness though, you make a good run at adapting some of the fairly broad characterization elements of Felix and applying them to a playable character. I applaud that. Also, Felix is awesome.
Anyhow, this presented an interesting conundrum for me. I made a deduction in elegance because of a heavy trend of intellectually themed features that didn't fit the character as presented. Ultimately, however, I do think it's a supportable theme: had you presented a less detailed story, I likely would have presumed the theme (likely adapted to "cleverness") and awarded points there rather than taking them.

Originality: 3

It's a stealth/precision damage build. It's nothing particularly innovative, but neither is it the first think I imagined when I thought "animal lord." (0)

Power: 4

If we exclude catlord (or really, even if we don't), you're pretty much aiming for a stealth based skill monkey. That's usually at the lower end of Tier 4 play: your role outside your specialty is primarily limited to precision damage and skill use. While it represents a niche than what I expected from the class as a default, it's not an inherently more powerful or flexible proposition. (0)
You do, however, make a very good run of that niche: your stealth capacity is impressive and between your skill tricks and your precision damage, you should be able to remain at least relatively relevant when stealth isn't appropriate. (+.5)
While the tricks you use to get to that point are well known, they are also effective (+.5)


Elegance: 3.5

Several of the elements, particularly those revolving around knowledge, seem to suit the overall build character poorly. You have several elements (Factotum, Carmendine Monk, Knowledge Devotion) that have a heavy theme of intellectualism. You sell sneaky, you sell skillful, you sell empathic, but you don't really sell intellectual. (-.5)
Mechanically, however, all the elements of the build seem fairly notably appropriate to Catlord itself. (+.5)
I can't imagine this build being a problem at most tables. (+.5)
While my first impression is that the build moves randomly between classes for the first 10 levels, I can't find any mechanical reason why it has to. Near as I can tell, it's purely to meet your story needs, so I've chosen not to penalize.

Use of Special Ingredient: 2

While it's nice thematically, you don't present anything that makes catlord seem central to anything you would actually do as this character. (-.5)
The only thing you seem to gain from the class is an animal companion: if that is the goal, you would be better off finishing out Beastmaster than entering Animal Lord at all (-1).
The build uses all 10 levels of Catlord (+.5)


Ruszel (12 Composite, 3 Average)
General Comments:
Despite the fact that this build as a whole wasn't quite where you wanted to be, there are a couple elements that stood out as particularly noteworthy from the point of view of this competition. Uncanny Trickster, in particular, is probably better in most regards than actually finishing out Animal Lord for any application of the class other than a focused melee character (and it's still probably a supportable choice there). In addition, while a ToB class probably isn't the best way to enter or cap off Animal Lord, non-class access to some maneuvers and/or stances in the middle levels would probably make most of the other entries more fun to play through 20.

Originality: 3.5

The creation of a thieves guild in relation to the character is an interesting and unexpected choice that fits Snake Lord Well. (+.5, ad hoc)
Power: 3.5

You aiming for a more or less standard skill monkey build with factotum heavily focused. This should, in general, be on the lower end of Tier 3, significantly higher than my base expectation (+1)
The inclusion of Snake Lord, however, neuters you noticeably. It's decidedly a downhill trend once you enter the class, and you'll likely become significantly more limited at higher levels. You end up in a situation where factotum is basically carrying Snake Lord. (-1)
The inclusion of the martial stances and uncanny trickster, while not overwhelming, are good choices. They represent particularly sound synergistic choices when dealing with Animal Lord's more skill inclined iterations. (+.5)

Elegance: 3

The build as presented would only seem reasonably suited as an NPC or in a game a party that tended towards evil characters: assassination in particular will tend to split a party both thematically (because of moral opposition) and logistically (because of the skill set) unless it is a focus of most of the characters. (-.5)
The guild presented is likely to have a significant and lasting effect on a persistent game world. It extrapolates nicely from the idea of snake lord, so I will be awarding some points for it. It seems however, only ancillary to the character itself, so you're only getting half a point. (+.5)

Use of Special Ingredient: 2

Snakelord, as a class rather than as a concept, contributes little to the build: you seem to be edging on a poison focus, but you never actually get there in a way to uses snake lord for anything other than a supply proposition. (-.5)
The build would likely be better mechanically in the complete absence of Snakelord. (-1)
I'm counting the Uncanny Trickster levels, so you use 9/10 levels in the Special Ingredient. (+.5)


Urog Windbear (16.5 Composite, 4.125 Average)
General Notes:
The flying bear idea seemed a bit odd, bit I liked this character immensely. It's thematically strong, mechanically creative, and it seems like it would be a blast to play. This is my favorite entry this round.

Originality: 3

This is more or less the role I expected from the Animal Lord Class. No bonuses, but no deductions. (0)


Power: 4

You're looking more or less at a the same power level as my base proposition: a reasonably rounded martial character. In general, I would expect the elements presented to trend to a low tier 4 class. (0)
The addition of the Bear Lord's grapple ability and the various strength bonuses you'll see from Primeval. you're going to significantly expand this capacity. You'll likely end up on the higher end of tier 4, rather than the lower. (+.5)
The elements of the build are also particularly synergistic: the wildshape ranger variant can be used to power both wild aspect and primeval form, and the emphasis on strength from both the race and from Primeval work well with the grapple emphasis from Bear Lord. (+.5)


Elegance: 4.5

Both the race and all the classes seem well suited towards the character's thematic core. You're making a primitive strong man, and everything fits. Very well. (+.1)
The use of a flying animal for primeval, while creative, probably wouldn't make it past at least some DMs, especially since the ability explicitly calls for DM adjudication (-.5)
You enter Primeval at 9, 1 level after getting Wild Aspect from Animal Lord. This not only works well by introducing mechanical synergy as early as possible, but also seems thematically appropriate since the because of the similar concepts behind Primeval Form and Wild Aspect. (+.5)
While the role of a savage, primitive, beast man will be particularly interesting in many settings, it will be somewhat disruptive an many others. (-.5)
Despite this, the idea of a regressing feral character will be particularly interesting where suitable (+.5 ad hoc)
Best in Category (+.5)


Use of Special Ingredient: 5

Bear Lord is fairly central to this build (+.5)
In addition, this build couldn't reasonably function as well without Bear Lord. Moreover, while the last two levels of Bear Lord are desirable primarily for Improved Grapple (which is fairly easy to get), using Bear Lord is is a fairly nice way to get them. Under the circumstances, I would say the build uses exactly the right number of levels in the class. (+1)
Best in Category (+.5)



Brolly (12.5 Composite, 3.125 Average)
General notes:
This build build's focus on a wide pool of permanent minions is a significantly different prospect than the other entries. It's an interesting idea, even though it would present some issues in game play. Ultimately what you'll run up against is the fact that you're going to be using an inordinate number of turns per round unless others are also using significant minions.
In practice, I imagine the build would work better as Ranger (or druid or ACF bard) 5, Animal Lord 8, Beastmaster 7. You would retain Animal Telepathy, which would seem important to the build, but you would also net 2 additional animal companions. You could also benefit, even more so than most, from finding room in the build to take the Wild Cohort feat.

Originality: 3.5

This build is significantly different than the other builds presented in the contest. (+.5)

Power: 4

You're essentially looking here at a limited, purchased form of minion-mancing. It's a more effective (because of sheer scale) proposition that my base assumption of a martial combatant, but not inherently different or significantly more flexible one: you're still A high tier 4 as opposed to a low end tier 4. (+.5)
As to how you actually line up as a result of the class abilities, it's a bit bi-polar. How much animal lord contributes to what is otherwise a simple WBL expenditure to buy minions will depend heavily on how the DM adjudicates, in particular, Animal Telepathy. In general, I think that the potential gain of a DM letting you play tactically with a far greater number of animals is about enough to offset the fact the limited scaling of your minions is going to make them particularly vulnerable to AoE damage is games that tend to high tier 3 and above. (0)
The feat line from Masters of the Wild is a particularly good choice here. (+.5)

Elegance: 1.5

The build is well thematically suited to the idea or Wolf Lord. The crusader element seems a tad tacked on, but it also seems somewhat related to the quasi-religious theme of the character. (+.5)
Realistically, I can imaging a conservative DM saying no to this just as easily as to Leadership (-1)
I can't realistically see this build being non-disruptive unless other players were also using significant minions or they were controlling a significant portion of yours. (-1)

Use of Special Ingredient: 33.5

Wolf Lord, and in particular Animal Bond and Animal Telepathy, are central to the build as presented. (+.5)
Realistically, this build could still work in the complete absence of Wolf Lord: a great number of DMs will let the player control minions in combat even in the absence of something like Animal Telepathy to justify it. While Animal Bond is useful, loosing a +4 is a surmountable obstacle in the context of the 30+ wild empathy check needed. You do need a class that advances wild empathy, but unless Animal Telepathy is the deal-breaker, Animal Lord simply doesn't stand out as more than an optional 1 level dip. (-1)
You use all 10 levels of Animal Lord. (+.5)
Edit from contestant debate: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9141699#post9141699) "However, you have convinced me that the build does a better job than I initially thought of supporting the class when operating under the presumption that Animal Telepathy is necessary. That warrants +0.5, I suppose. I'll adjust my scoring accordingly." (+.5)




A General Notes on Animal Lord:
While the 3.5 version of the class is a far more reasonable prospect for a contest like Iron Chef, the 3e version in Masters of the Wild will almost certainly be more interesting to play for any game with a focus higher than tier 3. The amount of updating for the class in question is almost non-existent (essentially, you just use the updated wild shape rules).

Chineselegolas
2010-08-12, 08:03 AM
So by my maths, after three judges the scores are as follows:

51 Sway
48.5 Urog
45.5 Brolly
38 Ruzel
36.5 Fistbear Bearfist
36 Burtram Urrni
32.5 Felix

All down to Keld Denar as to who takes the trophies in this one.

Amphetryon
2010-08-12, 07:02 PM
Keld can still potentially turn a bunch of the scores on their heads.

true_shinken
2010-08-12, 08:38 PM
Sway is still leading!
I feel bad for Felix. Such a nice concept, but it seems like he stumbled on quite a few things...

WinWin
2010-08-12, 09:24 PM
A lot of cool entries. I would have thought the scoring would have been a lot closer. Even so, there is only around 5 points between the top 3. Anyones game.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-13, 08:18 AM
Keld can still potentially turn a bunch of the scores on their heads.
Y'know, no pressure...

(Keld, you're killing us here, man!)

OMG PONIES
2010-08-13, 09:35 AM
We're eagerly anticipating these scores!

Also, any word on how long before the next contest? Once bitten, forever smitten, etc.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-13, 09:55 AM
We're eagerly anticipating these scores!

Also, any word on how long before the next contest? Once bitten, forever smitten, etc.

I typically start the next contest after the trophies are presented.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-13, 10:22 AM
Ooh...*chomps at the bit, not for the elusive trophy, but for the next contest*

Keld Denar
2010-08-13, 11:44 AM
Yea yea yea, I've been stricken with a case of the lazies. I'll get it done this afternoon. I've already read them all and have most of my ideas in my head. Just a matter of puking it into a word doc that's already preformated. :smallcool:

true_shinken
2010-08-13, 03:37 PM
Yea yea yea, I've been stricken with a case of the lazies. I'll get it done this afternoon. I've already read them all and have most of my ideas in my head. Just a matter of puking it into a word doc that's already preformated. :smallcool:

Hmm, that document could actually be of some help for judges on the next contests, Keld. Care to share?

Keld Denar
2010-08-13, 03:45 PM
Its just a word document with the following:



Originality: ,

Power: ,

Elegance: ,

Use of Secret Ingredient: ,



Originality: ,

Power: ,

Elegance: ,

Use of Secret Ingredient: ,


Build name in the first line, score goes between the two [b] tags, comments after the ",". When you are done, copy/paste the whole thing in reply window and you are done.

EDIT: EXCELLENT!

OMG PONIES
2010-08-13, 03:55 PM
Now all you need to do is fill in those blanks...:smallbiggrin:

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-13, 03:59 PM
Dibs on his knee-caps.


Btw,

OMG PONIES
2010-08-13, 04:00 PM
Only if I get the tendons...sweet, succulent tendons.

Keld Denar
2010-08-13, 06:06 PM
Ok, got most of the judging done. 3 more to go, I'll finish it when I get home.

true_shinken
2010-08-13, 06:08 PM
Ok, got most of the judging done. 3 more to go, I'll finish it when I get home.

Ooooh the building suspense!

Keld Denar
2010-08-14, 03:21 AM
And done...

Bertram Urrni

Originality: 2, nothing terribly original here. Dirty birdman is kinda cool, but not terribly impressed.

Power: 2, precision damage, poison, disease. If something resists one, its probably gonna resist all 3, completely neutering your build. Weak defenses. Extremely limited by a low ceiling. Will probably get mauled by another flyer, like a CR appropriate dragon. Does get to 16/20 BAB.

Elegance: 1, I see lots of inelegant dips. Stranded cleric casting, stranded druid casting, very little ability synergy other than the ability to stack on 3 circumstantial effects on the same attack. Class order probably could have been switched around a bit with druid at 1st to take advantage of the time when the animal companion is really strong.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 1, good cancer mage build, bad birdlord build. What does birdlord add here? I feel like if you changed out the birdlord levels with COMMONER levels, cancer mage is still good enough to get you by.
Sway

Originality: 4, Yuan Ti are pretty sweet.

Power: 4.5, Sway is definitely strong. I docked her a half point because she would probably play better as either a solo character, a character in a VERY specialized intrigue game, or as an NPC badguy. I feel like a typical adventuring party would slow her individual style down a bit. The cloak dancer + Surprise Strike combo is good, but requires your party to adapt to your strategy similarly to assassin’s Death Attack. Souleater is definitely strong, and really adds something to snakelord. Sway’s alpha strike is definitely strong, with a good chance to completely take out most foes around her level. Starts a little slow, but gets strong quickly. RG + DS + Necrotic Focus weapon makes her very scary to stand next to. Unfortunately, most things immune to negative levels are immune to poison, which hurts her. Still, things that aren’t are gonna get trashed. Would have liked to see a level of Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry of Strikes, but solid as-is.

Elegance: 4, lots of synergy between Yuan-Ti, bard, cloak dancer, and snake lord. Probably should have swapped Combat Reflexes and EWP in the build. Do like that it gets into snake lord pretty early to start utilizing its features.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, build oozes snaky goodness. The synergy between Soul Eater, lots of attacks, and poison DCs that go up as foes effective level goes down. Slight nit-pick, summoned creatures can not be milked for poison, as they, and all bits of them, goes back to wherever it was they came from before being summoned.
Fistbear Bearfist

Originality: 4.5, creative pun-play on a familiar theme. Made me smile!

Power: 5, great raw beatstick power. If I was a support mage/bard/cleric, this is the guy I’d want to be standing in front of me dealing massive amounts of damage with his *snigger* bear hands. Requires almost no buffing because he brings most of the required resistances/immunities to the table. Great saves, massive amounts of HP, amazing AC, including touch AC, no weak levels and good damage. Attack routine is great by combining UAS attacks with natural secondaries.

Elegance: 4, Build flows well, and even though it has a large number of classes, everything comes together well. Nothing seems out of place. Gets a little hard-up if he has to fight more than 3 fights a day, but is full strength for those at least.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 5, Improved Grab from Bear Lord really adds a lot in the build. Grappling isn’t always the best option, but when it is, it is very strong; this allows you to grapple as an afterthought. Great synergy between Con focus regarding FotF/Deepwarden/SteadfastDetermination and the Con increases from Bear Lord, Bear Warrior, and Warshaper. This character truly is the lord of the bears.
Felix, Hobo King of the Felines

Originality: 4, I really hope this was a Felix the Cat reference. Nice use of Beastmaster.

Power: 4, damage isn’t terribly remarkable, but survivability is not really an issue. Real power lies in stealth, which with Darkstalker is pretty amazing. Would have liked to see some kind of status debuff, but dead is a pretty good debuff to give. Beware the small underfoot kitteh, for he will bit off your ankles!

Elegance: 4, great use of variants to squeeze exactly the features you need. Would have liked to see more cat lord come into play earlier, but still a good use. Great Int synergy though, which leads to MASSIVE amounts of skills and the ability to apply Int to nearly every feature of the build.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4, fights like a cat, cunning and stealthy. Really is a cat lord. Int synergy also plays well into Cat Lord, as does the focus on stealth.
Ruszel

Originality: 3, most of the stuff here is pretty good. Uncanny Trickster progressing Animal Lord is pretty cool.

Power: 3, decent strength. A bit dependant on foes being vulnerable to SA and poison, which would make damage suffer. Gets to 16/20 BAB, which is good. Craven is good, well worth the assassin dip. Whip Dagger + Thicket + Standstill is decent, but I’m concerned that the damage won’t be high enough to actually force a standstill since most situations that trigger AoOs don’t qualify you for SA and thus Craven, the bulk of this build’s damage.

Elegance: 2, lack of description of abilities hurts you here. No mention of Arcane Dilettante spells known other than Heroics (which makes a terrible Arcane Dilettante ability anyway). No description of synergy between classes other than Beastmaster.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2, I wouldn’t really consider this build to be an iconic snake lord. Unlike other snake lords presented, barely synergizes snake lord abilities with other classes and abilities.
Urog Wind Bear

Originality: 3.5, flying bears? That’s kinda cool.

Power: 2.5, Starts very strong, but doesn’t seem to scale well. Aquires a pretty impressive strength, but doesn’t seem to capitalize on it. High level strategy of fly-by snatching is only marginally useful for a PC, given that its incredibly limited underground or against large flyers like dragons. Claw damage is low, and as a primary source of damage is really low. Also, grapple damage is based on UAS damage, without houserules, and without some sort of scaling UAS damage, grapple damage will be stuck at 1d3 (1d4 large) +str.

Elegance: 3, decent synergy between Primeval and Bear Lord, a curious combination. Great Str and decent Con growth through wildshaping, but no real way to swing it efficiently. No other real synergy. Could have used Steadfast Determination to help with droopy will save.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 3, 6th level is a good break point for Animal Lord. Even though the build doesn’t use all 10 levels, 6 is plenty enough to get the point across. If you had found some way to further synergize those 6 levels with your other abilities, I would have rated you higher.
Brolly

Originality: 4, nice use of optimized Animal Empathy, and making use of the harpoon as notated.

Power: 3, similar to Sway, this character build is a GREAT NPC to fight in his own environment, but might cause trouble trying to work within a party structure. Dungeoneering will make it tough to bring the whole pack to bear, as will flying foes. High level foes with AoE attacks (like dragons and anything that can drop high level nuke spells) will wreak havoc on your pack. That said, this character in the proper environment is extremely competent. You have Combat Reflexes, but you don’t have the Dex to gain any extra AoOs, which makes it a dead feat.

Elegance: 3, pack tactics synergy here is amazing. Vexing Flanker + the eventual Crusader synergy is pretty amazing, although I’d recommend Leading the Charge over Bolstering Voice. One thing that is wrong is the fact that you can’t apply metamagic to a spell-like ability. SPs don’t actually take up spell slots, and thus can’t take up slots +3 levels higher. Thus, no using Chain Spell on Animal Growth.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 5, Animal Empathy optimization in this build is phenomenal. Use in this build to diplomatize an entire pack is pretty amazing. It becomes the strongest feature the class has to offer when utilized like this.

Hope everyone is satisfied!

WinWin
2010-08-14, 04:40 AM
Awesome. Thanks for the judging.

I thought all of the builds were pretty cool, with a diverse array of backgrounds and abilities. This is not a comment on judges, but I personally would have scored Bertram and Felix higher. I am surprised that Sway scored so well in power and elegance tbh.

Akal Saris deserves credit for creating this handy reference.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

Thanks to the Judges and our Host.

I hope I have not jumped the gun with this post. That would be embarrasing. Looking forward to the next competition.

Amphetryon
2010-08-14, 05:14 AM
Wow, judging took a considerably different approach this time.

Congratulations to all entrants.

Chineselegolas
2010-08-14, 06:55 AM
And third place caught up to me... Exactly... Arrgg

As a note for damage being low, when in Dire Eagle form, damage is 2d6+str... Sure not much, but still more than the 1d3 you mentioned. Otherwise why do monsters deal lots of damage when grappling?

And when not in bird form, has power attack, a great source of damage. The grapple tactic is when the skys are free and can make use of falling damage to kill people.

WinWin
2010-08-14, 07:06 AM
And when not in bird form, has power attack, a great source of damage. The grapple tactic is when the skys are free and can make use of falling damage to kill people.

That is awsome, if only for the image of a bear executing a piledriver at 2000 feet.


I docked her a half point because she would probably play better as either a solo character, a character in a VERY specialized intrigue game, or as an NPC badguy

The background and character was inspired by a V:TM Follower of Set NPC in one of my games. Props for picking up on that.

Chineselegolas
2010-08-14, 07:20 AM
The background and character was inspired by a V:TM Follower of Set NPC in one of my games. Props for picking up on that.
Bloody Setites... Just got home from my Monthly OWBN game where I play an Assamite. Those snakes caused our city so much trouble.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-14, 07:47 AM
Well, crap, Keld, you brought up a few things I didn't notice. Far from wanting to argue (like I wish to with some of the other's judgments :smalltongue:) I'm over here kicking myself.

What's the tally, btw?

Chineselegolas
2010-08-14, 08:08 AM
Final scores, as I figure them to be (With totally no preference in listing Urog before Brolley...) are:

65.5 Sway
60.5 Urog
60.5 Brolly
55 Fistbear Bearfist
48.5 Felix
48 Ruzel
42 Burtram Urrni

Private-Prinny
2010-08-14, 09:28 AM
Since I haven't received a rough draft of the trophies yet, and I detest ties, I'm going to open the official debate post.

true_shinken
Bertram
Even those enemies immune to poison AND disease AND precision damage have to deal with the fact that Bertram's a competent archer and summoner with a WIS based attack routine, four attacks a round, and built-in flight. The fact that he's able to fulfill a recon and archer and secondary summoner role makes him fairly 'party friendly,' unless there's some other, specific criteria there.

Longer backstories to explain the character's evolution are typically rewarded within this contest, yet this one gets a complaint for being too long, despite fitting in a single post? :smallconfused:


9mm
Bertram
The only ability called superlative was the faux-wildshape, which the wording of the Improved Flight feat makes useless. The build's ability to infect the summoned creatures relies on their having a longer duration than rounds/level. I'm sorry I didn't quote verbatim all the abilities of the secret ingredient to make that clearer.

Ozymandias9
Brolly
"Realistically, I can imaging a conservative DM saying no to this just as easily as to Leadership (-1)"
I can imagine many of the builds not being allowable by a conservative DM. Many conservative DM's won't allow psionics for instance. The rules are fair and square and not shady in the least.

I don't think it is necessary to give a negative score on what a theoretical DM may or may not allow into his game as that possibility is as broad as the game itself.

It's not Leadership. There is no feat here. It is the equivalent, sure, but using the crunch 'and' the fluff of the PrC to achieve it. That's the definition of Elegance is it not? If you're going to penalize me for that I'd think the score should also be increased at the same time.

"I can't realistically see this build being non-disruptive unless other players were also using significant minions or they were controlling a significant portion of yours. (-1)"
And why is the latter deserving of a negative score? This character is based off of a main NPC from a game I ran. He was only 5th level, but he was providing all the transportation for this sled dog race (which was a cover for the whole thing being a secret scouting mission for the players).

He had dozens of dogs to transport the other players faster and also keep them warm, protect them, the whole kaboodle. It worked fantastically, and I can just imagine how it would have worked out if the game had lasted longer for me to provide him with additional levels such as I did here.

This is something that benefits everyone as well as himself. He manages to be a main warrior AND a support character. You might as well penalize a bard for most of his abilities being specific to supporting the group.

"You do need a class that advances wild empathy, but unless Animal Telepathy is the deal-breaker, Animal Lord simply doesn't stand out as more than an optional 1 level dip. (-1)"
Animal telepathy is the big one. It lets me direct the army, which is the mainstay of the build.

However, not only wild empathy and animal telepathy, but you can't normally chain spell animal growth either. It only works on spells that normally affects a single target. Animal Growth is normally multiple targets. However, it specifies in Animal Lord that the ability affects only affects a single animal, but is otherwise identical. As such, I can use the feat, but only Animal Lord provides such ideal wording.

You couldn't even grow 9 animals unless I'd taken 18 levels of druid or wizard, but Animal Lord doesn't grant spellcasting advancement. Even if it had it'd have had to be full spell progressing to match what I did and I'd have had to wait to the end of the build to use it.

As it stands, by 11th level I'm casting the equivalent of a 9th level spell.

Only animal lord allows me to do this.

Kesnit
2010-08-14, 09:44 AM
I can't realistically see this build being non-disruptive unless other players were also using significant minions or they were controlling a significant portion of yours. (-1)"

And why is the latter deserving of a negative score? This character is based off of a main NPC from a game I ran. He was only 5th level, but he was providing all the transportation for this sled dog race (which was a cover for the whole thing being a secret scouting mission for the players).

He had dozens of dogs to transport the other players faster and also keep them warm, protect them, the whole kaboodle. It worked fantastically, and I can just imagine how it would have worked out if the game had lasted longer for me to provide him with additional levels such as I did here.

This is something that benefits everyone as well as himself. He manages to be a main warrior AND a support character. You might as well penalize a bard for most of his abilities being specific to supporting the group.

I'm not Ozzy, but I took his comment to mean your action economy in combat is incredibly high and in any given round, you are going to take a VAST majority of the time.

Draz74
2010-08-14, 09:57 AM
Well ... owch. Normally Keld likes my style, but I guess not so much this time. :smallfrown:

WinWin
2010-08-14, 10:20 AM
Just out of curiosity, is there an established protocol for a draw? I have seen scores revised before, but not a draw.

For what it is worth here is my opinion on a couple of points. Hope this is not out of line.


The only ability called superlative was the faux-wildshape, which the wording of the Improved Flight feat makes useless. The build's ability to infect the summoned creatures relies on their having a longer duration than rounds/level. I'm sorry I didn't quote verbatim all the abilities of the secret ingredient to make that clearer.

Seems like a fair comment. The birdlord does provide an odd Wild Aspect ability.


"You do need a class that advances wild empathy, but unless Animal Telepathy is the deal-breaker, Animal Lord simply doesn't stand out as more than an optional 1 level dip. (-1)"
Animal telepathy is the big one. It lets me direct the army, which is the mainstay of the build.


Snipped the quote. Animal telepathy is very useful for this build in so many ways. Silent commands that go into the animals mind irrespective of any distractions. It could enable the use of more complex tactics or even tricks that trigger off telepathy, though that is speculation. It also offers great roleplaying potential.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-14, 10:48 AM
Just out of curiosity, is there an established protocol for a draw? I have seen scores revised before, but not a draw.

I'd just ask Strategos to make 2 trophies for 2nd place, but score revisions could change the standings.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-14, 11:30 AM
Longer backstories to explain the character's evolution are typically rewarded within this contest, yet this one gets a complaint for being too long, despite fitting in a single post?
Pffttt, I wish the longer stories were rewarded. Seriously, I've always gotten just as many complaints. I've experimented by making my last two entries considerably shorter.

Judges seem to prefer quality over quantity (not to say yours isn't). Starry-Eyes I just went all out, so it had both.

Keld Denar
2010-08-14, 11:44 AM
As a note for damage being low, when in Dire Eagle form, damage is 2d6+str... Sure not much, but still more than the 1d3 you mentioned. Otherwise why do monsters deal lots of damage when grappling?


This was in direct reference to his grapple damage, not his normal attack damage. Since by RAW, grappling monsters (and monsterous PCs) get rather shafted on damage due to the UAS line, you'd be reliant on drag and drop tactics or party help to kill foes. This lowers your ability to be a total package grappler in the manner that Fistbear is.

If anyone else thinks I missed something, please follow standard operating proceedure and direct your questions anon through Prinny. If I did miss anything really important, it still might affect your score, but I'm pretty sure I was thorough on my assessments.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-14, 11:49 AM
"Realistically, I can imaging a conservative DM saying no to this just as easily as to Leadership (-1)"
I can imagine many of the builds not being allowable by a conservative DM. Many conservative DM's won't allow psionics for instance. The rules are fair and square and not shady in the least.

I don't think it is necessary to give a negative score on what a theoretical DM may or may not allow into his game as that possibility is as broad as the game itself.

It's not Leadership. There is no feat here. It is the equivalent, sure, but using the crunch 'and' the fluff of the PrC to achieve it. That's the definition of Elegance is it not? If you're going to penalize me for that I'd think the score should also be increased at the same time.

The idea that you consider it a backdoor leadership would actually incline me to penalize it further. I had considered it, but ultimately, the fact that they're all animals inclines me not to: it is ultimately somewhat less abuse-able. I made no secret that I was going to deduct if the build included elements I think would be often banned. And I do think this would be banned, both for its similarity to leadership and its heavy reliance on what is, essentially, the epic diplomacy mechanic. A back door doesn't change this.

The fact that the mechanics and fluff work well together to further the theme of wolf lord did actually get you half a point, as noted in the initial scoring.

But the underlying point behind the deduction stands: this is a Practical Optimization exercise, and if the result is something that is expected to be unplayable (for whatever reason) for a reasonably segment of the audience, its practicality is diminished. That makes the result less desirable than one that is expected to be playable for a larger range.


"I can't realistically see this build being non-disruptive unless other players were also using significant minions or they were controlling a significant portion of yours. (-1)"
And why is the latter deserving of a negative score? This character is based off of a main NPC from a game I ran. He was only 5th level, but he was providing all the transportation for this sled dog race (which was a cover for the whole thing being a secret scouting mission for the players).

He had dozens of dogs to transport the other players faster and also keep them warm, protect them, the whole kaboodle. It worked fantastically, and I can just imagine how it would have worked out if the game had lasted longer for me to provide him with additional levels such as I did here.

This is something that benefits everyone as well as himself. He manages to be a main warrior AND a support character. You might as well penalize a bard for most of his abilities being specific to supporting the group.

I noted in my rubric that a build that would be limited to being playable under a small number of conditions would be penalized. I noted that this would include villainous NPCs, and if you see this primarily as an NPC build, I would treat it the same way even though its not villainous: it would have started out with at least a 0.5 penalty in elegance.

As it is, however, you're bringing to bear a significant strain on the action economy in the combat engine. In the absence of actively adapting normal play to suit your character, you're going to have one character taking a disproportionate number actions. That's loosing out in elegance simply because it's an often un-fun proposition: you're causing play to overemphasize one player. If you've played a summoner regularly, you know that there are ways around it: but you you do have to work around it, which is an undesirable element.

In short, Kesnit is reading the core of this objection correctly.


"You do need a class that advances wild empathy, but unless Animal Telepathy is the deal-breaker, Animal Lord simply doesn't stand out as more than an optional 1 level dip. (-1)"
Animal telepathy is the big one. It lets me direct the army, which is the mainstay of the build.

However, not only wild empathy and animal telepathy, but you can't normally chain spell animal growth either. It only works on spells that normally affects a single target. Animal Growth is normally multiple targets. However, it specifies in Animal Lord that the ability affects only affects a single animal, but is otherwise identical. As such, I can use the feat, but only Animal Lord provides such ideal wording.

You couldn't even grow 9 animals unless I'd taken 18 levels of druid or wizard, but Animal Lord doesn't grant spellcasting advancement. Even if it had it'd have had to be full spell progressing to match what I did and I'd have had to wait to the end of the build to use it.

As it stands, by 11th level I'm casting the equivalent of a 9th level spell.

Only animal lord allows me to do this.

A chained 5th level very much isn't the equivalent of a 9th. It's certainly not worth 6 levels on its own for 1/day. Either way, the last two levels are still entirely a waste in my eyes though, and while I like the role of Animal Telepathy in principle (and can easily see it being used to great effect in some games), I still view it as largely trivial in practice (since in the absence discussing this particular ability, I expect in combat control of a character's minions will almost universally default to the character's player anyways).

However, you have convinced me that the build does a better job than I initially thought of supporting the class when operating under the presumption that Animal Telepathy is necessary. That warrants +0.5, I suppose. I'll adjust my scoring accordingly.

Edit: As I had, apparently, however, incorrectly summed your Use of Special Ingredient Score, nothing actually changes here. Sorry about that.

true_shinken
2010-08-14, 01:37 PM
Even those enemies immune to poison AND disease AND precision damage have to deal with the fact that Bertram's a competent archer and summoner with a WIS based attack routine, four attacks a round, and built-in flight.
That damage is so low it does not matter, here. I don't see a point being made here.


The fact that he's able to fulfill a recon and archer and secondary summoner role makes him fairly 'party friendly,' unless there's some other, specific criteria there.
Being able to fulfill a role does not make you party friendly, it makes you efficient. Bertram is a guy that walks around spreading disease with a lot of sick birds. He could easily get one member of the party sick and lots of characters wouldn't agree with his methods - and he can't really hide'em (like, say, Sway could).


Longer backstories to explain the character's evolution are typically rewarded within this contest, yet this one gets a complaint for being too long, despite fitting in a single post?
It's simply I matter of taste. As I mentioned in the judging, I took no points for it, I just didn't enjoy it.

Also, congrats to Sway. That's the biggest lead I ever saw here on Iron Chef!

mjames
2010-08-14, 03:43 PM
I will say from a "Viewer" perspective, Sway suprised me the most. Great Build and tricks.

Also Go Urog for using a similar idea to what I was thinking, but using things (primordial) I would never have thought of.

Very entertaining competition.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-08-15, 04:15 PM
What do people think of using homebrew PrCs from the GitP PrC Contests in the homebrew forums?

Amphetryon
2010-08-15, 04:46 PM
What do people think of using homebrew PrCs from the GitP PrC Contests in the homebrew forums?


Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

Seems pretty clear to me; no homebrew in Iron Chef.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-08-15, 04:50 PM
Seems pretty clear to me; no homebrew in Iron Chef.

Sorry, I was a little unclear. I agree that normally it would not be allowed. But what about possibly making one of those classes the secret ingredient?

Edited for spelling :smallsigh:

Amphetryon
2010-08-15, 04:55 PM
Sorry, I was a little unclear. I agree that normally it would not be allowed. But what about possibly making one of those classes the secret ingredient?

Edited for spelling :smallsigh:
To repeat myself, as I was apparently unclear: No homebrew in Iron Chef. You're more than welcome to open an offshoot competition here or in the Homebrew forums for a homebrew PrC, but it's not what this iteration is about, and 'alternate systems' are specifically against the rules of the contest.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-15, 10:43 PM
I'm all for starting another while the trophies are worked on :smallwink:

Chineselegolas
2010-08-15, 10:48 PM
I'm all for starting another while the trophies are worked on :smallwink:
QFT.

Is fun spending time thinking of weird things to combine then throwing them out as someone else will have thought of it, instead of working on assignments

Draz74
2010-08-15, 11:19 PM
I will say from a "Viewer" perspective, Sway suprised me the most. Great Build and tricks.

Yeah ... I'm disappointed how this competition went and how some things in my build went unnoticed or misunderstood, but I haven't bothered raising objections to them or arguing or whatever, because I could come up with at least two other entries (Sway included) that I have to freely admit were thoroughly superior to mine.

Keld Denar
2010-08-16, 12:48 AM
If you feel like something was missed, you probably should have elaborated on it a bit more. I know I really kicked myself after the GSA event because I didn't quite expound enough on the awesome CL combo between Suel, GSA, and AbjChamp, and I feel like most of the judges missed it. I like to think I do a really good job analyzing the builds for combos/synergy, but I'm not all knowing. I spend a lot of time reading the crunchy write-ups, often reading those entries 2-3 times to make sure I don't miss anything important. If something was missed by 1 judge, shame on him. If something was missed by all judges, shame on you.

WinWin
2010-08-16, 08:20 AM
It is easy to get snarky at judges. I have done so before and I am not proud of it. Putting yourself out there to critique anothers work is not easy.

I took a different approach with this entry and made sure to clearly list how my build utilised the features of the secret ingredient. This made it easier to read (my writing style is not the most coherent) and got me thinking about how to improve upon those features. I am sure this played a major part in the Judges scoring.

I appreciate peoples kind words about my build. I think everyone that played deserves some credit, as well as the judges and our host.

true_shinken
2010-08-16, 08:53 AM
I know I really kicked myself after the GSA event because I didn't quite expound enough on the awesome CL combo between Suel, GSA, and AbjChamp, and I feel like most of the judges missed it.

But Keld, with the reading of GSA's CL being only equal to class level (as in +10 in 10 levels instead of +15 in 10 levels) was in play. That way, you gain very very little from GSA. I don't remember the specifics of your build, but the most you could squeeze out of it without making Abjurant Champion redundant (rememeber AbjChamp advances one single class of casting; you can't jump around like most PRCs) is Arcanamach 1/AbjChamp 5/GSA 8. That's CL = BAB +8 with 3 losses in BAB. You could do a lot higher without GSA in this environment. It actually slows the build's caster level progression.
I dropped out simply because the only redeeming feature of GSA was that +15 in 10 levels. I had a few builds centered around that in my master spellthief mini-guide, even. With the 3/4 bab and only 10/10 in caster levels, it simply feels poor.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-08-16, 09:49 AM
To repeat myself, as I was apparently unclear: No homebrew in Iron Chef. You're more than welcome to open an offshoot competition here or in the Homebrew forums for a homebrew PrC, but it's not what this iteration is about, and 'alternate systems' are specifically against the rules of the contest.

Out of curiosity, how many people would be interested in participating and/or judging in such a contest?

WinWin
2010-08-16, 10:20 AM
Out of curiosity, how many people would be interested in participating and/or judging in such a contest?

I might. It could be a good bench test of how balanced a class is. It is not quite playtesting, but should help iron out a few potential imbalances before playtesting.

I suggest you start another thread though. You may also be able to solicit more interest & feedback regarding the idea.

Private-Prinny
2010-08-16, 10:23 AM
The final standings are:

In 1st, WinWin's Sway!
In 2nd, The Vorpal Tribble's Brolly!
In 3rd, Chineselegolas's Urog!
In 4th, Eldariel's Fistbear Bearfist!
In 5th, OMG PONIES's Felix!
In 6th, Draz74's Ruszel!
In 7th, Amphetryon's Bertram Urrni!

Congratulations to all who entered, especially our 2 winners!

New thread will be up momentarily.

OMG PONIES
2010-08-16, 11:16 AM
Good competition, y'all! I'm surprised, I expected to be dead last by a long shot for my first entry. My hat goes off to the other competitors, who actually found interesting uses for the class (sick birds?! Dog church?!!!!) beside my idea to grab a leopard, make him big, and sneak around.

Also, my build may need to be docked a few points. I just now realized that I can only use my arcane dilettante spell 1/day. I thought I could drop reduce person every encounter, but knowing it's once a day would mean I need a permanent scroll of it or somesuch.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-16, 11:18 AM
Way to win, WinWin :smallwink:


Btw, what happened to the tie?

Private-Prinny
2010-08-16, 11:19 AM
Btw, what happened to the tie?

Ozymandias9 gave you an extra point in UoSI, so you got 2nd place by a hair.

Keld Denar
2010-08-16, 11:36 AM
I dropped out simply because the only redeeming feature of GSA was that +15 in 10 levels. I had a few builds centered around that in my master spellthief mini-guide, even. With the 3/4 bab and only 10/10 in caster levels, it simply feels poor.

Ah, but I wasn't going by the 15/10 CL increase. I was going with the +5 CL increase and +5 spellcaster level increase in between. I had 8 levels, which gives 4 spellcaster levels and a +4 CL bonus.

AbjChamp set CL to BAB (which finished 17/20), then Illumian Krau sigil set the CL to BAB +2 (to a max of HD), then GSA gave its +4 CL bonus, for a CL that is 3 points higher than your HD (or 23 at ECL20). Then tack on Tenacious Spellcasting from Suel and you have a CL 9 higher than your HD to resist dispels. You can apply things in the order you choose. You simply apply GSA's caster level increase AFTER AbjChamp does its work (17 BAB + 2 Krau + 4 GSA = CL23). GSA's CL increase is worded similar to Archmage's CL, or Master Specialist's CL increase, or similar. And while it did slow down Suel casting, it still finished all 10 levels of Suel casting by ECL20 so nothing was left unfinished.

If I had included a better write up of that little math trick, I think it would have helped my UoSI score at least.

Draz74
2010-08-16, 12:10 PM
If you feel like something was missed, you probably should have elaborated on it a bit more.

Oh, I know that. There are a number of things I had all written out in my mind about the build, which I literally just didn't have time to type out. The deadline for this contest came awfully fast, somehow, and during a few awfully busy days ...

EDIT: That said, I was very puzzled by your comment that Heroics is a terrible use of the Factotum's Arcane Dilettante ability. I've always seen it as a very strong combo ... what's wrong with it?

true_shinken
2010-08-16, 01:12 PM
Ah, but I wasn't going by the 15/10 CL increase. I was going with the +5 CL increase and +5 spellcaster level increase in between. I had 8 levels, which gives 4 spellcaster levels and a +4 CL bonus.

AbjChamp set CL to BAB (which finished 17/20), then Illumian Krau sigil set the CL to BAB +2 (to a max of HD), then GSA gave its +4 CL bonus, for a CL that is 3 points higher than your HD (or 23 at ECL20). Then tack on Tenacious Spellcasting from Suel and you have a CL 9 higher than your HD to resist dispels. You can apply things in the order you choose. You simply apply GSA's caster level increase AFTER AbjChamp does its work (17 BAB + 2 Krau + 4 GSA = CL23). GSA's CL increase is worded similar to Archmage's CL, or Master Specialist's CL increase, or similar. And while it did slow down Suel casting, it still finished all 10 levels of Suel casting by ECL20 so nothing was left unfinished.
That's what I meant. You slow down Suel A LOT for very little benefit. The same build with BAB 19 and no GSA would have CL 21, faster spellcasting and extra class features. If you used Master Spellthief (say, Spellthief 4/Duskblade 6/Suel 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1), you'd actually get HIGHER base attack (18) and higher caster level (18+2 Krau +10 Master Spellthief = 30).
It simply looks like a subpar choice. GSA is really bringing the build down a lot.


If I had included a better write up of that little math trick, I think it would have helped my UoSI score at least.
Yeah, I agree.

Keld Denar
2010-08-16, 01:46 PM
EDIT: That said, I was very puzzled by your comment that Heroics is a terrible use of the Factotum's Arcane Dilettante ability. I've always seen it as a very strong combo ... what's wrong with it?

Mostly that duration is way too short and it takes an action. You can't really use it out of combat , especially in this case since your CL is lowish, you can't Extend it because its a SLA. If you use it in combat to grab a feat, it eats up your standard action for a round, giving you a rather limited return. And its only once a day.

Yea, its really versatile, but not that amazing. Most uses of Heroics I've seen generally involve a free grab at Improved Init or Improved Toughness for a touch of extra speed/resiliance. Everything else, if you are basing your character around it, you are better off spending the feat. The only REALLY circumstantial time I could see this being really useful is if you ran into a Hydra, and wanted to pick up Imp Sunder for a little while. Then again, 9/10 times its easier to just KILL THE HYDRA WITH DAMAGE than try to chop off/cauterize the heads.


GSA is really bringing the build down a lot.

Ah, but it brings it down MUCH less than it brought down every other build. Thats worth something, right? Otherwise you could just say that any build that contains 0 levels of GSA is the best GSA build, which kinda defeats the purpose.

Draz74
2010-08-16, 02:17 PM
Mostly that duration is way too short and it takes an action. You can't really use it out of combat , especially in this case since your CL is lowish, you can't Extend it because its a SLA. If you use it in combat to grab a feat, it eats up your standard action for a round, giving you a rather limited return. And its only once a day.
Hmmm ... it's 10/minutes per level, which is better than most buffs. Seems like that could cover at least a couple encounters per day (especially in a dungeon crawl-style). Admittedly it's a lot better on a single-class Factotum than on a multiclasser.

And you can Extend it, since the Factotum description includes a special exception for its SLAs (interacting with Metamagic), in contrast with other SLAs.


Yea, its really versatile, but not that amazing. Most uses of Heroics I've seen generally involve a free grab at Improved Init or Improved Toughness for a touch of extra speed/resiliance. Everything else, if you are basing your character around it, you are better off spending the feat.

Sure, it would be better to just take the feat rather than relying on a buff ... but on a feat-starved build (like any Factotum I've ever seen), having one more feat part of the time is better than never having it.


The only REALLY circumstantial time I could see this being really useful is if you ran into a Hydra, and wanted to pick up Imp Sunder for a little while. Then again, 9/10 times its easier to just KILL THE HYDRA WITH DAMAGE than try to chop off/cauterize the heads.

Yeah, Improved Sunder is pretty worthless compared to just killing the hydra's body (though my recent group didn't realize this, which was humorous).

You need to think a lot more creatively with Heroics, though. Improved Toughness and Improved Initiative are far from the best it can do ... try Martial Study and Martial Stance, just to name two very versatile choices. :smallsmile:

Chineselegolas
2010-08-16, 08:58 PM
Ozymandias9 gave you an extra point in UoSI, so you got 2nd place by a hair.
Well done Vorpal

Private-Prinny
2010-08-23, 09:12 PM
Trophies are here at last, courtesy of the illustrious Strategos!

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u163/The_Great_Strategos/IronChefIXGold.png

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u163/The_Great_Strategos/IronChefIXSilver.png

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-08-23, 09:32 PM
Well done Vorpal
You to. Feels like I kinda snuck that one away, but... thanks :smallcool:

WinWin
2010-08-23, 10:24 PM
Awesome. Thank you Strategos. Thanks everyone.