Balancing the Wizard and Sorceror [3.5]

[Thorcrest]

I often see while browsing the forum that many people always talk about how overpowered the Wizard, and other spell casters, is, and this is true, no argument there. My biggest problem with this is how much more favourably the Wizard is viewed before the sorcerer, it’s core counterpart, and I thought up a method, that would lower it’s power level to be more comparable to the sorcerer, still more powerful than non-casters, but at least a step towards balance.

I have toyed with this idea for some time, but have yet to try it out, so it may not work, but I propose the following: remove the school specialization option from the wizard, but force a wizard to only be able to cast spells from one school. Thus a wizard is a “specialist” with all other schools banned and no bonuses.

Theoretically, in my mind anyways, this would limit the wizard’s options and bring him into the same problem the sorcerer has, limit on spells known. The two will now both have limits on what they can know, however, the sorcerer will have the advantage of being able to choose from all schools, while the strength of the wizard will be in met magic and getting that higher level spell first.

If this has been suggested before, I haven’t found it, but I would like to see some feedback on what people think. My experience is mostly with core, so I do not really know what adding multiple splat books will do, but criticize and comment. Any helpful response is appreciated.

Will this help create a balance in the classes?

[Draz74]

Banning two schools isn't really all that painful for a Wizard. It helps, but I think Wizards would still be considered the superior class. I mean, really all you're doing is taking the specialist Wizard (which is already the favored version in CharOp) and taking away one spell slot of each level.

Thing is, past low levels, number of spell slots really isn't a big restriction, because nobody ever uses all of their spell slots. More spells/day was always supposed to be the Sorcerer's big advantage over the Wizard ... and it just doesn't have much impact.

At low levels, maybe it could. Spellcasters actually have to budget their spells/day at low levels. But then, that's when the Sorcerer's delayed access to higher spell levels hurts the most. (Level 3 is the low point in a Sorcerer's whole career.)

[Zeta Kai]

It depends on which school a Wizard is restricted to. Divination, Necromancy, or Evocation? Nerftastic. Transmutation or Conjuration? Virtually no nerf at all.

[valadil]

I have toyed with this idea for some time, but have yet to try it out, so it may not work, but I propose the following: remove the school specialization option from the wizard, but force a wizard to only be able to cast spells from one school. Thus a wizard is a “specialist” with all other schools banned and no bonuses.

I want to see a game where this is how things work, but I don't think DnD 3.5 is the right one for this. I would very happily play a conjurer. Transmuter would be happy too and I might consider a necromancer. Everything else would be ignored. There just isn't enough incentive to play the other schools. Maybe illusion could work.

I think if you did this you'd have to balance out some of the schools. IMO that's just too much effort.

A while ago I played in a game that tried to bring sorcerers up to wizard levels. The GM figured it was too much effort to gimp wizards, but they could make sorcerer comparable without too much effort. I think the way he did it was to remove the metamagic restriction and give out bonus feats like a wizard. That seemed pretty balanced. Bumping up spell level would have been a little too drastic IMO, but not doing so leaves sorcerers at a disadvantage.

[Thorcrest]

Banning two schools isn't really all that painful for a Wizard. It helps, but I think Wizards would still be considered the superior class. I mean, really all you're doing is taking the specialist Wizard (which is already the favored version in CharOp) and taking away one spell slot of each level.

Thing is, past low levels, number of spell slots really isn't a big restriction, because nobody ever uses all of their spell slots. More spells/day was always supposed to be the Sorcerer's big advantage over the Wizard ... and it just doesn't have much impact.

At low levels, maybe it could. Spellcasters actually have to budget their spells/day at low levels. But then, that's when the Sorcerer's delayed access to higher spell levels hurts the most. (Level 3 is the low point in a Sorcerer's whole career.)

Sorry if I wasn't clear, they don't ban two schools, they ban all other schools of magic and get no bonus to specialization.


It depends on which school a Wizard is restricted to. Divination, Necromancy, or Evocation? Nerftastic. Transmutation or Conjuration? Virtually no nerf at all.

This is very true, however they will still only have one set of options, which is a fix from being able to have everything available to them... however it might just lead to all people only taking Conjuration or Transmutation, as you say, but then they still have to deal with being incapable of casting ALL other spell types, which are still usefull of course, and might just put the wizard down a peg in a few situations.

[Draz74]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, they don't ban two schools, they ban all other schools of magic and get no bonus to specialization.

Oh, whoops. Reading comprehension fail. :smallredface:

Uh, yeah. That would be a serious nerf indeed. Even if the Wizard picks Conjuration or Transmutation, I'd say the Sorcerer is now the powerhouse out of the two classes. And if the Wizard picks a weak school, he might be dropped down to Low Tier 3 or High Tier 4.

[Ernir]

Yeah, you'd have Conjurers and Transmuters.

It would bring the Sorcerer and Wizard closer together. (In fact, I'd definitely put the Sorcerer ahead of the Wizard under this houserule. Having full list access isn't as hot when your spell list just got reduced to something like 1/8th of its previous size). The problem I see is that I don't think it would be very fun to play a hyper-specialist like that in the long run, which should be the point of the game. =/

[Caphi]

Play beguilers, dread necros, and warmages. Same idea, better times, better balance, and more theming. You could cook others for the other schools, conjurers and seers and so on.

[Emmerask]

I would say second level spells at 4th level + banning 3 schools one of which must be transmutation or conjuration (without any specialisation bonus) would be enough to make them equal.

[Thorcrest]

Yeah, you'd have Conjurers and Transmuters.

It would bring the Sorcerer and Wizard closer together. (In fact, I'd definitely put the Sorcerer ahead of the Wizard under this houserule. Having full list access isn't as hot when your spell list just got reduced to something like 1/8th of its previous size). The problem I see is that I don't think it would be very fun to play a hyper-specialist like that in the long run, which should be the point of the game. =/

Maybe the sorcerer is slightly ahead at higher levels, but at lower levels and mid levels I would still pretty much call them even...

I personnaly don't see how it wouldn't be fun, as thematically based wizards are fairly popular, at least in my experience (I also enjoy them), but I suppose that different people will have different opinions.

[JaronK]

You could always slow down spell progression. Give Wizards a new spell level every three levels instead of every two (so they get level 2 spells at level 4, level 3 spells at level 7, level 4s at 10, 5s at 13, 6s at 16, 7s at 19, and that's it). It doesn't exactly make Wizards weak.

JaronK

[Thorcrest]

You could always slow down spell progression. Give Wizards a new spell level every three levels instead of every two (so they get level 2 spells at level 4, level 3 spells at level 7, level 4s at 10, 5s at 13, 6s at 16, 7s at 19, and that's it). It doesn't exactly make Wizards weak.

JaronK

No it doesn't, but without a similar nerf to the sorcerer, he would never be played for any reason other than concept.

[Zeta Kai]

Yeah, you'd have Conjurers and Transmuters.

There would be Illusionists, as well. Illusion, as you should remember, still has shadow conjuration & shadow evocation, which makes it the most diverse school under this house rule.

[Lysander]

That has many game breaking complications just because of the various MUST HAVE spells in various schools. Read Magic (divination) for instance, or Dispel Magic (abjuration). Even if you're dedicated to say cold themed spells, you're still going to want to cast Dispel Magic.

One possibility is to just limit the maximum number of spells a wizard can learn to cast. Make the maximum limit far higher than how many a sorcerer can know but not endless.

With that approach maybe you could have "specialty" spells and "cross school". A wizard could learn spells from different schools, but each cross school spells would count as two spells towards their maximum limit (reflecting the extra difficulty in learning unfamiliar magic). The player would want to stay in their specialty in order to know as many spells as possible, but could make exceptions to get spells they particularly need or want.

[JaronK]

No it doesn't, but without a similar nerf to the sorcerer, he would never be played for any reason other than concept.

Actually the flexibility still makes it worthwhile.

But yeah, I'd hit Sorcerers with something too.

JaronK

[Kylarra]

Instead of mass banning all other schools, probably something more along the lines of the spheres from 2ed would be better. So you get full spells from 1 or 2 schools, and then up to say 4th level out of a few others, and everyone has at least a minor sphere of divination. Would work better with a better definition of spheres, but is at least less limiting than only getting one school ever.

[Voldecanter]

This is an interesting concept , The wizard would need to rely on the DM to provide treasure with Spellbooks and Scrolls (Not to mention coin to buy scrolls at ye' olde' magick shope') or the wizard would fall right behind the sorceror .

Only allowing one school could be considered a nerf , but really it doesn't change anything if a wizard only gains 2 spells known + whatever he finds per level , not to mention Possilbe Spell research the wizard would actually do if he was severly limited in spell selection and made up his own spell creations and variants to gain more variety amoung his contemporaries .

The Sorceror remaining the same would have an advantage over the wizard , adventuring parties would turn to the right combination of Soreror's over wizards who now would be able to cast more overall variety and could accomplish many more tasks than the new wizard model would .


This possible houserule would need to consider what Setting the Wizard came from , how plentiful magick is in the setting and if wizards already have any consequences (mechanical or otherwise) for being wizards .

Each wizard would fill a small niche outside of combat . Divinitation and other 'Smaller combat Effect' Schools would be considered even more useless by the munchkin and Power-Gamer Communities , whereas Causual Players and Roleplayers would find it an interesting new take that would serve to challenge them throuhout the campaign as they work with their own magickal energies .

The More combat oriented schools would play as normal and blast and disintergrate away the enimies while everyone else did their thing .

In a Campaign setting where magical study is "One school or no school" the sorceror would be viewed as dangerous , and although mechanically more pleasing for Adventuring Parties (having a sorceror who is able to use all the scrolls and Spellbooks found , along with their own spell selection) , the Roleplaying aspects would set the stage for a nomadic life , untrusted by all , and possibly hunted by Wizards who try and train them or kill them for abusing magic or being too dangerous to keep aruond .

The Splatbooks like Encyclopedia Arcane would allow these new "Specialist" wizards to have more fun than the Core only Spell Selection Wizard , but Ultimately you will encounter mixed feelings for these ideas that you would be placing upon the Wizard class .


ultimately the Wizard is nothing .
The Wizard Relies on Intellect , Spells and Magic Itself .
Strip those away and you have a very smart person filled with Useless Esoteric and Occult Knowledge . This Wizard Change would need to be described and detailed not within the wizard class but in how Magic Ultimately works in the Setting which this will be used , establishing the Rules of How magic functions would place wizards on an even playing field with the Sorceror .

The Wizard would become what you describe = The Specialist with only one school of magic , with unlimited Potential but in practice would stick to their own tricks and spells to get through the day .

The Sorceror would become the Generalist Wizard minus the potential to know "all the spells" , with their limited Spells known and number of Spells able to cast compared to the Wizard , the Sorceror would be using magical items to increase their spells per day through scrolls , wands ect. With their variety these spellcasters would have to rely less on their party members and could rely more on their own powers during adventuring with a variety of encounters that are not particularily shoehorned to accomodate the Spellcaster who can only cast Magic Missile Repeatively .

[Thorcrest]

That has many game breaking complications just because of the various MUST HAVE spells in various schools. Read Magic (divination) for instance, or Dispel Magic (abjuration). Even if you're dedicated to say cold themed spells, you're still going to want to cast Dispel Magic.

There is no such thing as a "MUST HAVE" in my opinion, one can counterspell for Dispel Magic, or find other ways to get around it, Read Magic or Identify could be done by NPCs if one did not wish to be a Diviner. If these were MUST HAVE, then every single party would have a wizard, which I can assure you is not the case.



One possibility is to just limit the maximum number of spells a wizard can learn to cast. Make the maximum limit far higher than how many a sorcerer can know but not endless.

With that approach maybe you could have "specialty" spells and "cross school". A wizard could learn spells from different schools, but each cross school spells would count as two spells towards their maximum limit (reflecting the extra difficulty in learning unfamiliar magic). The player would want to stay in their specialty in order to know as many spells as possible, but could make exceptions to get spells they particularly need or want.

An interesting idea, but I don't see it as all that game changing unless it is only a few spells more than a Sorcerer... the taking multiple slots for other schools idea is interesting, and might be worth toying around with. I can't however think of any fluff for why this might be though... mechanically good, but perhaps not fluffwise.



Instead of mass banning all other schools, probably something more along the lines of the spheres from 2ed would be better. So you get full spells from 1 or 2 schools, and then up to say 4th level out of a few others, and everyone has at least a minor sphere of divination. Would work better with a better definition of spheres, but is at least less limiting than only getting one school ever.

I had not heard of this before, an interesting idea, but then it might be better to simply remove the schools and just come up with spell "packages", which would be several lists of certain spells fairly balanced in power to all other lists which included some of the more basic "required" spells. This would take a lot more work, however, but it might be the best way to balance various wizards.

[Kylarra]

I had not heard of this before, an interesting idea, but then it might be better to simply remove the schools and just come up with spell "packages", which would be several lists of certain spells fairly balanced in power to all other lists which included some of the more basic "required" spells. This would take a lot more work, however, but it might be the best way to balance various wizards.Well yes, that's what I meant by a "better definition for spheres" but I was offering a quick and dirty way to impose some limits without being as strictly limiting.

[Lysander]

An interesting idea, but I don't see it as all that game changing unless it is only a few spells more than a Sorcerer... the taking multiple slots for other schools idea is interesting, and might be worth toying around with. I can't however think of any fluff for why this might be though... mechanically good, but perhaps not fluffwise.


I figure it's just a matter of how hard it is to learn a spell. If you're an illusionist, you can learn illusion spells without difficulty. You can still learn necromancy spells, but those require a lot more effort on your part. Basically, it's choosing to spend time on a very tricky spell instead of studying two easy spells.

One other option is to also make cross-school spells require higher level spells slots to cast. Maybe the adjustment could be based on which is your specialty school. Better schools would require a higher adjustment for everything else. For example if you're a Conjurer, it might take +3 levels to cast any non-conjuration spell. However if you're a Diviner, it might just take +1 to cast non-divination spells. The fluff reasoning for this is that the "better" schools like transmutation are harder to learn compared to say enchantment, so if you specialize in them you're just a lot less flexible.

[Thorcrest]

This is an interesting concept , The wizard would need to rely on the DM to provide treasure with Spellbooks and Scrolls (Not to mention coin to buy scrolls at ye' olde' magick shope') or the wizard would fall right behind the sorceror .

How, he would still be casting the same number of spells, only his selection is limited, and still less than the sorceror's known spells.


Only allowing one school could be considered a nerf , but really it doesn't change anything if a wizard only gains 2 spells known + whatever he finds per level , not to mention Possilbe Spell research the wizard would actually do if he was severly limited in spell selection and made up his own spell creations and variants to gain more variety amoung his contemporaries .

He could only create spells that fall under his school, and he can research any spell within his school as normal.


The Sorceror remaining the same would have an advantage over the wizard , adventuring parties would turn to the right combination of Soreror's over wizards who now would be able to cast more overall variety and could accomplish many more tasks than the new wizard model would .

But then the sorceror would lose his combat punch, and they tend to focus in one area anyways. I can understand what you are saying but it all comes down to whether the sorceror is willing to sacrifice combat spells for more versatile spells, which will come down to the player.



This possible houserule would need to consider what Setting the Wizard came from , how plentiful magick is in the setting and if wizards already have any consequences (mechanical or otherwise) for being wizards .

Each wizard would fill a small niche outside of combat . Divinitation and other 'Smaller combat Effect' Schools would be considered even more useless by the munchkin and Power-Gamer Communities , whereas Causual Players and Roleplayers would find it an interesting new take that would serve to challenge them throuhout the campaign as they work with their own magickal energies .

By that logic on Power gamers and Munchkins, they would all complain for not playing god, but they could still easily do many of their powergamey munchkiny stuff within one school, so I don't see that as a change. You are correct that given the right roleplayers, it might add a new dimension to wizard interaction.


The More combat oriented schools would play as normal and blast and disintergrate away the enimies while everyone else did their thing .

In a Campaign setting where magical study is "One school or no school" the sorceror would be viewed as dangerous , and although mechanically more pleasing for Adventuring Parties (having a sorceror who is able to use all the scrolls and Spellbooks found , along with their own spell selection) , the Roleplaying aspects would set the stage for a nomadic life , untrusted by all , and possibly hunted by Wizards who try and train them or kill them for abusing magic or being too dangerous to keep aruond .

The Splatbooks like Encyclopedia Arcane would allow these new "Specialist" wizards to have more fun than the Core only Spell Selection Wizard , but Ultimately you will encounter mixed feelings for these ideas that you would be placing upon the Wizard class .

Really the first paragraph depends on the player and the second on the setting.



ultimately the Wizard is nothing .
The Wizard Relies on Intellect , Spells and Magic Itself .
Strip those away and you have a very smart person filled with Useless Esoteric and Occult Knowledge . This Wizard Change would need to be described and detailed not within the wizard class but in how Magic Ultimately works in the Setting which this will be used , establishing the Rules of How magic functions would place wizards on an even playing field with the Sorceror .

The Wizard would become what you describe = The Specialist with only one school of magic , with unlimited Potential but in practice would stick to their own tricks and spells to get through the day .

The Sorceror would become the Generalist Wizard minus the potential to know "all the spells" , with their limited Spells known and number of Spells able to cast compared to the Wizard , the Sorceror would be using magical items to increase their spells per day through scrolls , wands ect.

Not sure what you are trying to get at exactly with the begining section, if you mean that magic for wizards would only work within one school, then yes...

Since there is no change to the sorceror, it all depends on how he is played by the player once again. And Magical Items can still be used by both classes, so I don't know what is so important about the last part...


With their variety these spellcasters would have to rely less on their party members and could rely more on their own powers during adventuring with a variety of encounters that are not particularily shoehorned to accomodate the Spellcaster who can only cast Magic Missile Repeatively .

This makes no sense whatsoever... A wizard would now have to place more emphasis on working with the party since he would have less options available to him... and since there is no change to sorceror, he should be as able as he is now. I also believe that the wizard would be able to handle himself well enough as well.

Once again not to sure what you are trying too get at...

[Thorcrest]

I figure it's just a matter of how hard it is to learn a spell. If you're an illusionist, you can learn illusion spells without difficulty. You can still learn necromancy spells, but those require a lot more effort on your part. Basically, it's choosing to spend time on a very tricky spell instead of studying two easy spells.

One other option is to also make cross-school spells require higher level spells slots to cast. Maybe the adjustment could be based on which is your specialty school. Better schools would require a higher adjustment for everything else. For example if you're a Conjurer, it might take +3 levels to cast any non-conjuration spell. However if you're a Diviner, it might just take +1 to cast non-divination spells. The fluff reasoning for this is that the "better" schools like transmutation are harder to learn compared to say enchantment, so if you specialize in them you're just a lot less flexible.

While that thought has merit, I am not sure it would be much of a fix, you'd either see players simply work on a "harder" school or simply take Divination and take the smallest penalty, a bit of a pain, but nothing they can't live with... Actually, it might be worth testing to determine the true merit behind it. Might work better than I expect, but I suppose it depends on who's playing the wizard.

[Voldecanter]

This makes no sense whatsoever... A wizard would now have to place more emphasis on working with the party since he would have less options available to him... and since there is no change to sorceror, he should be as able as he is now. I also believe that the wizard would be able to handle himself well enough as well.


No I meant the Sorceror would act similar to how the wizard is now , the player would try to take on the entire encounter , relying no their own spell selection + All other spell allowing Items .

[jiriku]

Narrowing the wizard's available pool of options is the correct answer for balancing the class. IMO a better approach is to just ban it and replace it with a series of more focused casters like beguiler, DN, etc. However, your idea of single-school wizards is worth a shot. In original 1st ed. D&D, the illusionist was first introduced as a class with a limited list that essentially only included illusion spells. It was an interesting class and one that many people enjoyed. Playtest your idea some and see how it works.

[Fouredged Sword]

I like the aproach use in the psion class. They force you to choose a school, but you may still choose from a pool of spells that are more general. To get to the spells that are powerful, you must be the right type of wizard, but you still get access to the bread and butter spells like read magic.

[Urpriest]

As I understand it, NPC castings of Read Magic are relatively useless: Read Magic is one of the key wizarding tools for learning new spells, and someone else reading a given piece of magical writing doesn't give the wizard a leg up in working with it. I'd just make Read Magic universal, and I'd probably do the same with the Dispel chain.

[Vantharion]

I like the idea of a conjurer specified wizard class, a seer and perhaps a better iteration of the warmage. A transmuter base class would be interesting.

In that particular favor I think Sorcerers should also specialize more, if you look at UA's generic Spellcaster class, which is Cha based spontaneous, they get 5 more feats, normal metamagic at the cost of 1 spell per day of your highest 2 level spells which goes away as you increase in level. This speaks that the generic sorcerer is fairly weak, trading off his metamagic capabilities for a familiar and five bonus feats for extra spells per day.

I've been thinking of a sorcerer who picks a three school selection and more restricted to those three.

Edit, also the generic spellcaster gets a better skill selection too. They get all knowledges, profession and any four skills. I think that is vastly superior to sorcerer skill choice.

[Morph Bark]

This could work, but the Beguiler, Warmage and Dread Necromancer would look much more attractive as classes in that case. I'd say they could be allowed two schools, but not both Conjuration and Transmutation and make Read Magic a Universal spell. Maybe consider giving them the ability to learn any spell of their school, including ones not normally on the Wizard spell list, but only through spellbook learning, as with the Archivist.

EDIT: Also, dual-school spells would only be allowed if both schools were accessible.

[BillyJimBoBob]

How, he would still be casting the same number of spells, only his selection is limited, and still less than the sorceror's known spells.Not many less, depending on the school selected, and the level range the campaign operates in. The Sorcerer tops at 5 spells known per level, which for many schools and spell levels hovers right around the number of spells available. In Core.

But therein lies the rub: The amount of limitation this houserule will impose will vary wildly depending upon the sourcebooks used in the campaign. With the amount of limitation dropping off sharply as the number of sourcebooks climbs. It is an almost universal fact of the splats that no matter what their supposed topics, they seem to be compelled to publish another couple hundred arcane spells and a few nifty feats, prestige classes, and/or races which highly favor arcane casters. And thus the linear Fighter vs. the exponential Wizard loses ever more ground with each splat book published.

As a better option for balance, I'd consider running a campaign where all full progression casters are limited to Core, while all other classes are not. This will still have a variable impact depending upon the splat books used, but at least the interest level of the non-casting will increase and this may serve to establish a balance of a sort, and one which requires no nerf stick.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

I like the idea. . . I might make it a little less restrictive. Maybe give them somthing similar to advanced learning so they can pick up a couple spells of different schools but keep it very limited. And I'd give them all univeral spells of course. . .

Personally I always prefered to just give the sorcerer better progression. If sorcerer gets access to new spell levels at the same time as a wizard, the balance abruptly gets a little closer to even. Throw in heritage or familiar feats in for free at every 4th level (mostly a flavor thing) and sorcerer is darn right attractive.

[Fenryr]

Dragonlance campaign has an optional rule: when someone casts arcane magic, make them roll Fortitude (DC = 10 + spell level). If they fail, they become fatigued. If they fail a second time, exhaust.

It may affect low levels but later on I don't think it will stop them. Maybe toy with this rule or something?

[Milskidasith]

Dragonlance campaign has an optional rule: when someone casts arcane magic, make them roll Fortitude (DC = 10 + spell level). If they fail, they become fatigued. If they fail a second time, exhaust.

It may affect low levels but later on I don't think it will stop them. Maybe toy with this rule or something?

Fatigue and Exhaustion are not really conditions that matter much to the wizard, and that fortitude save is rather trivially easy past the lower levels. That also has absolutely nothing to do with balancing the wizard to the sorcerer, so much as it is about balancing casters to noncasters, which requires a whole lot more than giving them slight movement and strength penalties 5% of the time.

[Revan Ordo]

As an alternative to the Fort save versus fatigue and then exhaustion, why not change it to something like the following:

Get rid of spell slots and give them unlimited casting. However, in order to cast a spell a spellcaster must roll a successful Spellcraft check. If the casters fails, the spell fizzles and the caster takes so many points of subdual damage. The caster cannot 'take 20', but may 'take 10' if not in combat.

Also for each spell cast within 1 minute of casting any other spell, you suffer a -1 penalty to your Spellcraft check for casting spells. For example, if a character casts one spell per round for three rounds (a total of 18 seconds), the first check suffers no penalty, the second suffers a -1 penalty, the third suffers a -2 penalty. If he casts another spell 5 rounds later (48 seconds total), he suffers a -3 penalty.

Spellcasters also find it harder to make the Spellcraft check when they have multiple spells active at once. For every spell a character has active, he suffers a -1 penalty to the check for other spells cast during that period. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for multiple castings within a minute.

{table]Spell Level|Spellcraft DC|Subdual Damage
0th|10|1
1st|15|3
2nd|20|6
3rd|25|9
4th|30|12
5th|35|15
6th|40|18
7th|45|21
8th|50|24
9th|55|27[/table]

You could alter the DCs/Subdual Damage depending on how difficult you want to make it for spellcasters to cast their spells. Alternatively instead of a Spellcraft check, you could make it a Concentration check.

Just my 2cp.

[Tyndmyr]

Remove the level 3 step from the sorc, and move all higher level progression down a level, causing their spell tables to match up much better.

Give the sorc bonus feats, as a wizard.

Give the sorc a few more skill points per level.

Boom, we have balance.

[kestrel404]

^ Yeah. Although, to be fair, I'd also allow 'specialist sorcerors' (and focused sorcerors) with the same option for bonus spell slots as specialist wizards, and I'd give the sorceror wizard bonus feats at the same rate as the Psy Warrior (at level 1, 2, and every 3 levels after 2).

[Voldecanter]

@kestrel404 : I think what Tyndmyr was implying all those changes to the sorcerer would make it exactly the same as the wizard

[Tyndmyr]

Nope. You have the two main differences...primary stat, and spellcasting style. Those define the essence of the wizard vs the sorcerer, not how many skill points or feats they have.

Take that secondary junk, and equalize it out. Give the sorc a few more skill points to equalize out the effects of a poorer primary stat. Toss in the bonus feats to encourage the poor sorc to actually stay in his primary class at all...and to be able to customize and join a PrC if he chooses.

The two classes retain the essential differences, but no drastic changes are necessary, balance is enhanced between them, and you get more sorc build versatility.

[thompur]

I would make some spells only for Sorcerers, and only for wizards. Also, some spells would be available at lower levels for sorcerers, especially evocations, which are more(excuse the use of a 4th ed. word)primal. Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, Icestorm. These come from natural and elemental power. On the other side, the orb spells were discovered by wizards trying to duplicate the raw power that they saw sorcerers enjoy. But then Wizards have spells unavailable to sorcerers. These "Book Spells" would be exclusive to the specialist. Hideous Laughter, Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, Defenestrating Shpere; all exclusive to the wizard. It would take a bit of work, but giving each class exclusivity to some spells would, I think, make it more interesting.

[137beth]

The problem with your idea of limiting Wizards to only one school is that the Wizard appears clearly worse than the Sorcerer. The Wizard is limited to one school, so it scarcely has more versatility than the Sorcerer. But the Sorcerer also gets more spells per day AND doesn't need to prepare them, so...I'll go with Sorcerer.

[Kylarra]

One idea I've been toying with on and off is something akin to PF's bloodlines. Except you'd get your bonus spell when a wizard would normally get a spell of that level and that would be your only spell known of that level, and you'd get to cast it twice of course, not counting bonus spells.

[the humanity]

when your sorcerer is done resting, he may trade one spell known for another.

this would be better. nerfing<boosting.