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zephiros
2010-08-02, 01:09 PM
Yeah this one is starting to bug me. I looked up the rules on level adjustments, then took a tylenol and went to sleep. Might've been cause I looked them up at 4am but if anyone could explain them to me a little more comprehensibly that'd be nice. :P

I just don't see how to....yeah. I don't know how it would work to play an adjusted character.

WarKitty
2010-08-02, 01:15 PM
Basically, you are treated as if you took LA# levels in whatever race you are, for the purposes of gaining experience. So, if you're level 3 drow cleric, you gain experience as a level 5 character rather than a level 3. And if your party is starting at level 5 you'd only be allowed 3 levels in your character class. Other than that it's pretty much just there for the DM to decide on appropriate challenges and keep the party at the same level. You don't get any benefits from your LA pseudo-levels (other than the benefits you have from your race of course).

Edit: edited numbers, I thought drow was +1 not +2.

unimaginable
2010-08-02, 01:15 PM
In its most basic form, level adjustment means you count as being that many levels higher. So, if you're in a level 5 party and have a level adjustment of 1 (because you're, say, a Tiefling), you only get 4 class levels.

Then there's LA buyoff to make it suck less long term. Someone else can explain that.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-02, 01:17 PM
Yeah this one is starting to bug me. I looked up the rules on level adjustments, then took a tylenol and went to sleep. Might've been cause I looked them up at 4am but if anyone could explain them to me a little more comprehensibly that'd be nice. :P

I just don't see how to....yeah. I don't know how it would work to play an adjusted character.

Level adjustments are empty levels.
They offer nothing: no hp, no skill rank, no feat advancement, nothing. They do count for EXP minimum.

They are used so more powerful races are "balanced". Not that the designers did a good job. Hobgoblin is barely +1. Drow are +2.
Supposedly, Drow get the +1 for SR and spell-likes and +1 for mental stat unbalance. But really, 2 levels behind is hard to make up.

A 3rd level character (ECL 3) is 3rd level Human Wizard, 1st level Drow Wizard, or a 2nd level Hobgoblin Wizard. Each has same XP (3000 XP minimum).

Basically, they should be avoided in most cases: unless benefits exceed losses.

WarKitty
2010-08-02, 01:23 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm LA buyoff here. Basically, when you reach a certain number of class levels you choose to pay an XP penalty to drop the LA by one. This helps for races that have really cool early-game abilities but aren't that useful later on: The drow's dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire are a big difference early on; later when everyone can afford magic items to duplicate spells the LA is more of a hindrance than a help.

Telonius
2010-08-02, 01:25 PM
They're almost never worth it for spellcasting classes. They're only very rarely worth it for melee classes.

Soren Hero
2010-08-02, 01:53 PM
i hate the level adjustment rules because they also add in racial HD...it makes it so difficult to play ANYTHING...i was wondering if it would be easier to play the race with straight racial HD and no LA...would that unbalance the game?

Starbuck_II
2010-08-02, 02:02 PM
i hate the level adjustment rules because they also add in racial HD...it makes it so difficult to play ANYTHING...i was wondering if it would be easier to play the race with straight racial HD and no LA...would that unbalance the game?

Yoy might want to look at this thread (redesign of monster/races based on CR not LA/RHD): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724

You take levels in the monster class instead.

zephiros
2010-08-02, 02:09 PM
That's certainly a neat idea. I find the whole concept a bit annoying. It's not as if the rest of the party couldn't be scaled accordingly.

Or everyone picks something with like a +9 Adjustment and pretends nothing happened. :P

Or sometimes you just ignore it. I made a Mindflayer Wizard once that was permitted to level normally. (not in a campaign that was legitimate in any way, mind.)

CockroachTeaParty
2010-08-02, 02:56 PM
Yeah, if everyone is playing a homogeneous race campaign, LA can be waived, and EL can be universally increased to increase the challenge.

I've tried a few times to run all-mind flayer games (noble experiments, but cursed with a certain brevity...)

zephiros
2010-08-03, 02:30 PM
Yeah, I must say when I read the description yesterday I failed to see how it posed any disadvantage, but it's just supposed to make them take increasingly more experience to gain the lower levels of their class. Like a Mindflayer would have to start earning epic amounts of experience to reach Wizard level 14, but they get their racial benefits as a counterweight, (unless I'm still reading it wrong).

Can't believe I actually missed that that was the idea, but hey, I was tired and sick. :P Although I did realize, if you end up playing one of the campaigns where you just level up at specific points, then unless the DM does a specific thing to make that character take longer, the LA won't make any difference. Or am I wrong there?

Ernir
2010-08-03, 02:50 PM
Can't believe I actually missed that that was the idea, but hey, I was tired and sick. :P Although I did realize, if you end up playing one of the campaigns where you just level up at specific points, then unless the DM does a specific thing to make that character take longer, the LA won't make any difference. Or am I wrong there?

Yes, you're a bit wrong here.

Take the Mind Flayer. If you start playing an out-of-the-box Mind Flayer, you're an ECL 15 character. If the DM awards the same XP to everyone, it means the Mind Flayer is going to level just as fast as its ECL 15 friends. So far so good.

What isn't good is that the ECL 15 Mind Flayer is going to be FIFTEEN levels behind when it comes to gaining class abilities, and SEVEN levels behind in gaining HD-related abilities. In D&D, your level is a pretty good measure for your power. Having LA means you will have fewer levels. It is always going to suck having some stuck on you.

TechnOkami
2010-08-03, 03:14 PM
To put bluntly, the race itself is like a class. Depending on the LA is how much of that class in that race you have. So you're treated as a 2nd level character automatically as a drow with its LA: +2 and thus move to move your EXP up to the second level. Then for every other class you go into, its instead treated like you're going from level 2 to level 3, and so on and so forth.

Coidzor
2010-08-03, 03:45 PM
Are there any variants that are any good that just give the benefits of the race after achieving certain numbers of HD per benefit/ability? So, y'know, you might not get much as a 1st level character, but you get the abilities when they're not too unbalancing or too underpowered.

Sort of like how raptorans can't fly as 1st level characters but gain the ability to when they level up enough.

Eloel
2010-08-03, 03:55 PM
Are there any variants that are any good that just give the benefits of the race after achieving certain numbers of HD per benefit/ability? So, y'know, you might not get much as a 1st level character, but you get the abilities when they're not too unbalancing or too underpowered.

Sort of like how raptorans can't fly as 1st level characters but gain the ability to when they level up enough.

Hellbred from FCII have some progressive abilities.

Oslecamo
2010-08-03, 04:11 PM
Are there any variants that are any good that just give the benefits of the race after achieving certain numbers of HD per benefit/ability? So, y'know, you might not get much as a 1st level character, but you get the abilities when they're not too unbalancing or too underpowered.

Sort of like how raptorans can't fly as 1st level characters but gain the ability to when they level up enough.

My improved monster classes do that (on my sig and already linked by Starbuck II). I and the other people helping me in that thread worked hard to make sure that you only get the special abilities when they're adequate and then they keep scaling as you level up. The giants for example start medium, grow to large at medium-lowish levels and then keep growing all the way up to gargantuan as they aproach epic.

The half celestial and half fiend also unlock stronger and stronger SLAs as you gain HD.

ericgrau
2010-08-03, 06:05 PM
ECL = LA + racial HD + class levels
HD = racial HD + class levels

All game balance effects, such as experience, wealth and what level you adventure with, use ECL. All in game effects, such who certain HD dependent spells can affect, use HD. Monsters with only 1 racial HD replace it with class levels, so this 1 racial HD becomes 0. 2 or more racial HD stays; it does not get reduced once you take class levels.

zephiros
2010-08-04, 11:28 AM
Take the Mind Flayer. If you start playing an out-of-the-box Mind Flayer, you're an ECL 15 character.

Right you are, I neglected to factor in HD on that one, I just remembered the LA +7.

But still though, supposing there's a Level 1 Mindflayer Wizard, and a bunch of other level 1 characters. If the DM decided (albeit quite mistakenly) to level them all at periodic story points, then the extra experience he would have to normally earn is moot, which...as far as I can see would mean that he's gaining class levels as fast as the rest of the party, and therefore the Level Adjustment is kind of meaningless?

Or does the level adjustment confer some sort of other penalty to acquiring one's class abilities aside from just slowed rate of earning experience points?

Ernir
2010-08-04, 11:47 AM
Right you are, I neglected to factor in HD on that one, I just remembered the LA +7.

But still though, supposing there's a Level 1 Mindflayer Wizard, and a bunch of other level 1 characters. If the DM decided (albeit quite mistakenly) to level them all at periodic story points, then the extra experience he would have to normally earn is moot, which...as far as I can see would mean that he's gaining class levels as fast as the rest of the party, and therefore the Level Adjustment is kind of meaningless?

Or does the level adjustment confer some sort of other penalty to acquiring one's class abilities aside from just slowed rate of earning experience points?

Yes, ignoring the XP award system and putting the Mind Flayer in a party with a bunch of first level characters would mean the Mind Flayer does not level any slower than the rest. The problem with that line of thinking is that in order for it to work the DM needs to place the ECL 15 Mind Flayer in the same party as a bunch of ECL 1 characters.

Kaww
2010-08-04, 12:53 PM
Hellbred from FCII have some progressive abilities.

What is FCII? I apologize for asking a dumb question?

Ernir
2010-08-04, 01:07 PM
What is FCII? I apologize for asking a dumb question?
Fiendish Codex II, a sourcebook.

On that note, Dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon) have HD-dependent abilities as well.

zephiros
2010-08-04, 02:58 PM
Oh yeah, I realize it would be pretty steep to actually run a game that way, I was just making sure I understood properly how that worked out.

Sindri
2010-08-05, 03:24 AM
It's generally a good idea to talk to your GM before playing anything with a LA; most of them recognize that most creatures, especially in MMI, have ridiculous level adjustments, especially after considering racial HD. If you want to play a drow, you can probably convince the GM to make it LA +1 instead of +2 by comparing drow builds to "equivalent" builds from the basic races, and showing how they suck. Likewise, after considering the racial HD, a lot of GM remove the LA from lizardfolk. Dragons and outsiders get trickier because of all their specials, but they're still less powerful than an "equivalent level" character in one of the base races, especially at high levels when things like Shapechange mean that you can be a much more powerful dragon by playing a human wizard, and then get 9th level spells for free.

BobVosh
2010-08-05, 04:20 AM
Savage Specis has rules on how to make leveling monsters. If you note, most people here didn't mention it because it is mostly terrible. Homebrew is a decent way to do it, also I kinda like the PF LA rules. CR=LA. You get the HD and everything to the critter.

panaikhan
2010-08-05, 07:35 AM
If I can just poke a question in here myself:

What kinds of 'level-up' abilities are based on character level, and which are on HD?

For example - would a drow cleric get a feat at level 1 (ECL3) and an attribute increase at level 2 (ECL4)?

gomipile
2010-08-05, 07:53 AM
If I can just poke a question in here myself:

What kinds of 'level-up' abilities are based on character level, and which are on HD?

For example - would a drow cleric get a feat at level 1 (ECL3) and an attribute increase at level 2 (ECL4)?

Bonus feats are based on hit dice. I think attribute increases are as well, not sure about that one though.

Prime32
2010-08-05, 08:04 AM
also I kinda like the PF LA rules. CR=LA. You get the HD and everything to the critter.I hope you mean CR = ECL.:smalleek:

Races of War has a similar system (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Playing_Unusual_Races#Powerful_Races) which is slightly more in-depth.

Basically, you start with ECL = CR +1 (or a level or two higher for certain things like true dragons). You calculate ability score modifiers as if the monster in the statblock was using the elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) rather than the standard array (11 11 11 10 10 10).

As an optional step, remove the HD and give it a number of new ones equal to its ECL, giving it BAB, HD size and saves so that it ends up with similar figures to the original stat block.

Oslecamo
2010-08-05, 06:50 PM
I hope you mean CR = ECL.:smalleek:

Races of War has a similar system (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Playing_Unusual_Races#Powerful_Races) which is slightly more in-depth.

Except that pathfinder re-did all the monsters, while Races of War has very questionable views on the basic rules themselves.



Basically, you start with ECL = CR +1 (or a level or two higher for certain things like true dragons). You calculate ability score modifiers as if the monster in the statblock was using the elite array (15 14 13 12 10 8) rather than the standard array (11 11 11 10 10 10).

Even then you're still plagued by nonscaling abilities and things that shouldn't be there, like greater teleport at will wich, well, half the outsiders have. Sometimes before level 5.



As an optional step, remove the HD and give it a number of new ones equal to its ECL, giving it BAB, HD size and saves so that it ends up with similar figures to the original stat block.
What's exactly the purpose of that? If you want the original stat block why don't you just use the original stat block instead of messing up with the HD rules?:smallconfused: