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Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-02, 02:28 PM
First off, I'm not playing Chaotic Stupid.

I would like help in designing a character for an Evil Campaign. (3.5)
- We're starting off at 8th level, in a custom world.
- Any Official books are allowed.
- 25 point buy
- 8th level gold (~27,000 GP iirc)
I haven't asked about Psionics yet, and I might do that later.

I'm thinking Lawful Evil, with the mindset that that I know whats right and most people don't.
Or a kind of "Survival of the Fittest" mindset. Where it's Right and Just for the strong to take from the weak, etc. Law of Nature, Law of the Jungle
-----------

Background about this campaign:
- The rest of the party is Caster Heavy (Mostly Rogue/Assassin and Rogue/Sorc.)
- There is currently no Healer or Tankish character.
- We're basically working as Mercs for different political factions for now (monetary motivation)

I was thinking about a (I know, I know) Barbarian/Bard. My "gimmick" being that I sing while in combat. Or I sing while Raging. Something along those lines. (Was thinking Heavy Cha and Bluff/Intimidate a lot.)

Basically I'm trying to come up with something that has decent Utility and will be fun to play. Maybe more support?

Also if anyone knows any good non standard races or classes that would fit an Evil Campaign, feel free to suggest!

hamishspence
2010-08-02, 02:31 PM
barbarian/bard might work for NE or CE. Goes well with "survival of the fittest"

If the character has a few virtues to offset his vices, it can make them more interesting (as well as easier for the party to trust). Unusual loyalty to allies or minions for an Evil character, for example.

Something along the lines of "no-one leans on my people but ME."

Starbuck_II
2010-08-02, 02:35 PM
Paladin of Tyrrany/Hexblade ?

You give opponents -4 penalty to saves and -2 to AC.
Aura of Menace + Dark Companion (alternate class feature).

LE can be survival of fittest.

The save reduction makes it caster friendly.

Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-02, 02:45 PM
I plan on staying clear of a Paladin of Tyranny. Our DM is a Pun-Pun paranoid. I'd hate to have my character never capable of keeping gold or dying in mysteriously convenient rolls of the die.

hamishspence
2010-08-02, 02:45 PM
"Law of the jungle" where anyone may murder to get what they want- is more a NE or CE societal perspective- LE ones tend to be a bit more ordered.

Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-02, 05:07 PM
Okay, I forgot about something that kind of screws my Barbarian/Bard Idea.

Barbarians can't use any Cha, Dex, or Int based skills while raging. Or any ability that requires concentration or spells/skills with a command word.

So there goes my idea of a character that would fly into a Rage every time he sang a song, and continue to sing while slaughtering.

Back to the drawing board for me.

Marnath
2010-08-02, 05:11 PM
Also keep in mind you can be evil and never commit an evil act in your whole life, if you happen to be a horrible person on the inside. You may want to rape, murder and steal but be too timid to actually go for it. You're still evil due to wanting to. You can play an evil character exactly as you would a good or neutral if you want, but instead of freeing the villagers from the dragon because it's good, maybe you did it because they can pay you, or because you want slaves. Or maybe just because you love to look into the eyes of an intelligent being as you drive the blade in, and rescuing the villagers is a happy side effect that gets you money.

Crossblade
2010-08-02, 05:42 PM
Okay, I forgot about something that kind of screws my Barbarian/Bard Idea.
Barbarians can't use any Cha, Dex, or Int based skills while raging.
Try the Savage Bard Variant in Unearthed Arcana. Granted, there's still the issue of raging, but from the way it looks with spells, it buffs first then rages (when multi-classed) when needed at the fight if needed.
Failing that, there's the Druidic Avenger. I never looked into the class, but a raging bear form could do damage.

Jota
2010-08-02, 06:54 PM
Crusader/warblade bards (Song of the White Raven) are also solid, if you aren't dead set on taking barbarian.

Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-02, 07:02 PM
Try the Savage Bard Variant in Unearthed Arcana. Granted, there's still the issue of raging, but from the way it looks with spells, it buffs first then rages (when multi-classed) when needed at the fight if needed.
Failing that, there's the Druidic Avenger. I never looked into the class, but a raging bear form could do damage.

Okay, both of those look pretty awesome. Who doesn't want to turn into a bear?

@Jota
I'm not dead set on Barbarian, it was just my first thought as our party still has no meat shield.

I was actually looking into a PsiWarrior/SoulKnife combo just now.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-02, 07:09 PM
Psion/Thrallherd, and bring an infinite supply of meatshields* with you that constantly replenish themselves without penalty.

*Also, trap detectors. And monster distractors. And trail rations.

Randel
2010-08-02, 07:10 PM
I just want to toss this out for anyone wanting to make an evil character:

Ode to the Minions (http://www.brawlinthefamily.com/?p=938)

Having a great singing voice to inspire your allies in battle or potentially using diplomacy to turn your enemies to your side (or avoid unnecessary fights) is totally okay for evil characters. After all, the best villains out there have to have enough charisma to be likable by their underlings and preferably their enemies. Just because you are on one side and your opponent is on the other doesn't mean you have to enemies personally.

Don't feel bad about using nonlethal damage to knock your enemies unconscious, keep them tied up until you finish their task, and then release them later (possibly for a ransom or something). Those 'good guys' may not have any qualms about slaughtering entire tribes of goblins or kobolds and looting their caves but you are a BAD GUY. You might want to have minions of your own and the knowledge that you treat other peoples minions with respect should rub off on how they know you treat your own.

If you want to steal all the treasure from somebody's cave then that's all right, everyone is doing it. That doesn't necessarily men you have to kill them to do so. You break in, beat everyone up, take their stuff and leave. No need to add murder/genocide to your list (who are you gonna rob when you kill all the goblins in the area?).



As for what your build should be... I'm not sure but I suspect that having some healing power would be good if your group lacks a dedicated healer (though you can always grab a bunch of Healing Belts from the MIC to deal with healing needs).

Machiavellian
2010-08-02, 07:12 PM
Do you want to be evil, or VILE?

Because I can do you a horrific favor:

Race: Vashar (Super-Evil Humans from BoVD)
Class: Psi Warrior 3/Fighter 2/Disciple of Dispater 10/Blackguard 5

Focus your feats on Combat, some psionic, and Devil-Touched/Vile feats.
Weapon-Wise, I actually suggest a Keen Brutal Surge Iron Scythe (Your Crit range drops if it's made of iron)

Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-02, 08:05 PM
I think I've got it.

Class:
PsiWarrior (4) /Soulknife (4)
This way I walk around with no visible weapons or armor at all. (It also frees up that 27,000 gp for other fun magic items.)

Powers:
- Inertial Armor
ideas?

Background/Storywise:
(We're required to pay allegiance to 1 of several "Lords" in the city.)

The Lord I'm serving has my fiance/wife locked away (for debts she or I have incurred) and I have agreed to do his bidding in exchange for her eventual release. If I don't, he's going to suck the life out of her. (He's a Vampire)
So now I'm stuck doing the Vampire Lord's evil work, even though I don't really want to. (That begs the question of intent though. Would I still be considered "evil" if I'm doing Evil things for a good cause? I think so at least.)

Race
Still need help coming up with a decent race for this combo.
- I want something with a sense of "mystery," The DM isn't going to tell the rest of the party my race/class, but leave it up to them to figure out, and I want something where if someone decides to go Chaotic-Stupid, they'll pause and wonder if they can actually kill me or not.
- Preferable something with innate Spider Climb, Levitate, Fly, or Teleport.
- Also, LA on the low to none side.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-02, 08:11 PM
Soulknife? Nooo.

Plain and simple, Soulknife sucks. It sucks hard. Its an entire class whose class feature is "has a magic weapon".

If you like the idea of being able to walk around "unarmed" and call up a weapon from nowhere, use Psychic Warrior 8 and take the Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) ACF. It's the exact same bonus scaling as a mindblade, for free, more flexible, and you get full PsyWar power progression.

tyckspoon
2010-08-02, 08:22 PM
Soulknife? Nooo.

Plain and simple, Soulknife sucks. It sucks hard. Its an entire class whose class feature is "has a magic weapon".

If you like the idea of being able to walk around "unarmed" and call up a weapon from nowhere, use Psychic Warrior 8 and take the Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) ACF.

You can also do a natural weapons PsyWar with Claws of the Beast (+Bite of the Wolf if desired.) The claws last hour/level and can be summoned and dismissed during that duration at will as a Swift action.


- Preferable something with innate Spider Climb, Levitate, Fly, or Teleport.
- Also, LA on the low to none side.

These things are incompatible.
If you're going psionic, Kalashtar is always a pretty good choice. Especially with PsyWar levels, since the class can use any source of extra PP it can get.

Randel
2010-08-02, 08:28 PM
I'd go with something like Changeling from Eberron or similar. Your natural ability to change your features at will would effectively let you become whatever race you want (just stay as your chosen race at all times when you are around your allies).

If you are going psion/soulknive and don't need expensive magic items then just grab whatever fly/teleport/spider climb stuff you need with magic items.

step 1: Be a changeling
step 2: Introduce yourself to your allies as whoever or whatever you want
step 3: stick with that persona as long as you need to
step 4: If things go south then change clothes, change your face, keep your magic items in a secret place of your choice and make up a new persona as needed.
step 5: If anyone follows you, hit them with something scary, turn into a mindflayer/vampire/rakashra/demon/weeping angel/'vaguely humanoid waxen mass of eyeballs and unspeakable runic symbols' or whatever the hell else you want and start cutting them up while the wonder just what the hell kind of race you are playing.

step 6: Make sure nobody figures out that you are a changeling. You are technically living a lie and therefore EVIL! Bad changeling for marrying a woman and making her think you are human when in fact you are not... you're not getting into Lawful Good afterlife with that over your head. Also, if the vampire knows or suspects your secret then thats another thing he has over you other than the love of your life. Not to mention what the kid will look like.


Also, if you are a member of a class that doesn't need equipment to work... you could try something like stripping naked and changing into a human-like statue or change your skins appearance to blend into the background.

Not sure how effective that would be but if you reliably demonstrate that you can turn from Joe Average McTotallyhuman into a wolflike thing or maybe a stone colored gargoyle then your allies might suspect you are a lycanthrope or demon or half-chameleon or something if they ever manage to see you using it. If those have LAs then you can just look like a freaky monster while keeping all the level adjustments to spend on increasing your class level.

fryplink
2010-08-02, 08:49 PM
You could go classic and play a warlock, and UMD healing wands CMW/lesser vigor

or have all you party members take lich-loved and play a dread necromancer

or if you want something a little less over-the-top evil, an ur-priest (obviously start with something else for the pre-reqs) who believes the gods are unworthy of worship and thinks it's right to rebel against them.

If the ur-priest took the the correct base class (I don't have the ur-priest entry on hand, but I remember it was keyed off BAB) you could be both tank and healer

Thinking of tank and healer, go evil druid, cleric of an evil god, or even a neutral god like We Jas (from vanilla 3.5) and have him just a darker member of his flock.

Marnath
2010-08-02, 08:56 PM
These things are incompatible.

I guess you've never heard of Raptorans from RoW? They can fly and are LA 0.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-02, 09:01 PM
I guess you've never heard of Raptorans from RoW? They can fly and are LA 0.

Don't they start with slow falls, work up to gliding, then eventually full flight? I would have suggested Dragonborn, but they have the same problem. Unless he's starting at level 8+ (I think), he won't have the mobility that Flight would give, and that he probably wants.

devinkowalczyk
2010-08-02, 09:06 PM
Different direction for my post
I have run an evil game and one thing that really derails it is the "evil for evil sake."

The easiest suggestion for running an evil character (regardless of L/N/C) is to do whatever you want or need in the easiest way.
Do: steal from everyone when you need money
Don't: kill the farmer after he has given you directions
Don't: steal the farmers stuff if you live in a heavily patrolled area
Don't: then hunt down the farmer's family to finish them off
Do: think about consequences

Marnath
2010-08-02, 09:11 PM
Don't they start with slow falls, work up to gliding, then eventually full flight? I would have suggested Dragonborn, but they have the same problem. Unless he's starting at level 8+ (I think), he won't have the mobility that Flight would give, and that he probably wants.

Yeah well it doesn't get flight right away, but it is free once you do hit that level and i can't think of any other LA 0 race besides dragonborn template that get flight at all, let alone at level 1.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-02, 09:12 PM
Yeah well it doesn't get flight right away, but it is free once you do hit that level and i can't think of any other LA 0 race besides dragonborn template that get flight at all, let alone at level 1.

Correct*. It should be elaborated that "flight/spider climb/levitation" are incompatible with "low LA" at low levels.

*Well, there's always Incarnate Construct Warforged with the Winged Creature template.

Jota
2010-08-02, 09:27 PM
I don't want to beat you over the head with the crusader if you don't want to play one, but it is one of the most natural tank classes written by Wizards, seeing as most of what's above it in power are casters.

PsyWar 8/Crusader 2 makes for a pretty damn good zone controller with Thicket of Blades and a spiked chain (and expansion, obviously). You can keep going PsyWar afterward, which will net you sixth level powers (but has medium BAB), or you can go war mind, which has sweeping strike and full BAB.

The only full BAB/full manifester prestige class I've found is the Ghostbreaker, from Hyperconscious (non-WotC).

Marnath
2010-08-02, 09:34 PM
Correct*. It should be elaborated that "flight/spider climb/levitation" are incompatible with "low LA" at low levels.

*Well, there's always Incarnate Construct Warforged with the Winged Creature template.

Say it with me: "Winged Creature is an inherited template, warforged cannot have inherited templates because they aren't born." A warforged only qualifies for that AFTER the awaken construct spell is used, by which time it's already past the point where he could have genetics from a winged parent.

tyckspoon
2010-08-02, 09:37 PM
Say it with me: "Winged Creature is an inherited template, warforged cannot have inherited templates because they aren't born." A warforged only qualifies for that AFTER the awaken construct spell is used, by which time it's already past the point where he could have genetics from a winged parent.

The fact that warforged are artificial creations means almost any 'inherited' template can be justified as a different design of warforged, assuming the template in question can be used on Constructs to start with. There's not that much difference between 'mommy was a shape-changing bird' and 'the Artificer tweaked the settings on his magic forge' when it comes to templating.

Edit: The major problem when trying to pay down templates with Incarnate Construct is that there aren't a lot of templates that can be applied to constructs, and Incarnate Construct can only counteract LAs that were there before the Warforged was Incarnated. Winged, for example, can not apply to Constructs. So you'd have to be an Incarnate Warforged first, making you humanoid.. and LA 0, because Incarnate is -2LA minimum 0. You then apply Winged, somehow (Savage Species transformation ritual or something) and you're LA 2 again.

Marnath
2010-08-02, 09:48 PM
Winged creature can only be applied to animals, giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids and vermin. So you can fluff it all you want, it still doesn't work by RAW.

Machiavellian
2010-08-02, 10:02 PM
What about that Wings warforged componet? Wouldn't it be fair to give the Warforged the Winged template if he became Incarnate?

Marnath
2010-08-02, 10:11 PM
I...hadn't considered that. Components are technically part of your body, so i could almost see calling that the spell converts them too. I guess that would work if you had a nice DM.

*edit However, the price puts them well out of reach for a level 1 character, so that defeats the point a bit.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-02, 10:13 PM
Well, with a nice DM you could probably get the Winged template applied anyways via Rule 0. For that matter, it'd take a nice DM to pull any Incarnate Construct tricks in the first place.

Regardless, I think we're dragging this significantly off-topic (though a new thread to discuss what templates do qualify RAW for Incarnate shenanananananigans might be interesting).

Back to discussing how to make EEEEEEBIL characters. (And not even one comment yet on the many and varied uses of Thrallherd believers to a suitably unscrupulous party?:smalltongue:)

Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-03, 12:24 AM
Soulknife? Nooo.

Plain and simple, Soulknife sucks. It sucks hard. Its an entire class whose class feature is "has a magic weapon".

If you like the idea of being able to walk around "unarmed" and call up a weapon from nowhere, use Psychic Warrior 8 and take the Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) ACF. It's the exact same bonus scaling as a mindblade, for free, more flexible, and you get full PsyWar power progression.

I see your point, but then you get into having to spend valuable PP on manifesting the weapon and then have to worry about duration. Meh.
Maybe I'll only take 1 or 2 levels in SoulKnife and the rest in PsiWarrior.


@Randel
The chameleon Race idea is a pretty good one. I could really pull off some shenanigans with the party using those ideas.

The Antigamer
2010-08-03, 01:51 AM
If the object is to confuse your enemies(and other PCs), try the chameleon PrC, or this homebrewed chameleon base class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90955).

The Glyphstone
2010-08-03, 08:44 AM
I see your point, but then you get into having to spend valuable PP on manifesting the weapon and then have to worry about duration. Meh.
Maybe I'll only take 1 or 2 levels in SoulKnife and the rest in PsiWarrior.


@Randel
The chameleon Race idea is a pretty good one. I could really pull off some shenanigans with the party using those ideas.

Call Weaponry is a 1-PP power though. Just going from PsyWar6 to PsyWar8 nets you 4+Wis Mod PP, improves your soulbound weapon to a free +2, +2 BAB, access to 2 3rd-level powers, and gives you a bonus feat - comparatively, spending those two levels of Soulknife gets you a nonmagical weapon you can conjure at will and lets you throw it:smallconfused:. It'll be a very, very rare circumstance where you need your weapon for more than 4 stretches of 8 minutes at a time, and it's cheap to get even after that. Not to mention that you're effectively saving 16+ PP by having that free +2 bonus instead of needing to augment it to a +2.

Really, the only viable way to use a Soulknife is a Soulbow ranged build, which can actually be halfway decent. Otherwise, avoid it at all costs.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-03, 09:12 AM
I see your point, but then you get into having to spend valuable PP on manifesting the weapon and then have to worry about duration. Meh.
Maybe I'll only take 1 or 2 levels in SoulKnife and the rest in PsiWarrior.


@Randel
The chameleon Race idea is a pretty good one. I could really pull off some shenanigans with the party using those ideas.

Soulbound Weapon ACF lets you summon those weapons for a single power point. Two more levels of psyWarrior is 2 more minutes of the weapon. The extra pp from those levels is also a good 3 or 4 more uses of the power. There's just no mechanical advantage in soulknife. As far as psionics go they're replaced in every possible sense by all other classes.

Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-03, 11:33 AM
Well now...I hadn't looked at it that way. :/
Interesting. Okay.
I guess Soulknife is on the outs then.

I'll look up the prereqs for the Chamleon PrC, although I know there was a PrC (the duelist?) that dealt with not wearing armor and instead adding your int mod to your AC instead, that I'm considering.

And someone here had a point, since I'm not spending gp on armor I can buy magic items that give me Spider Climb or Teleport or something along those lines.

I really appreciate all the help and advice guys, you've all been a great help so far!

Snake-Aes
2010-08-03, 11:36 AM
Factoti do that. Duelists add int to damage when using a finesse weapon.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-03, 12:04 PM
Factoti do that. Duelists add int to damage when using a finesse weapon.

You're thinking of Swashbucklers. The Duelist does add his Int to AC, maximum=Duelist class level, when unarmored.

Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-03, 12:10 PM
Was the Duelist updated for 3.5?

The only one I saw still had ambidexterity listed as a prereq, and I know that was done away with in 3.5. (That, and I don't want a rapier)

The Glyphstone
2010-08-03, 12:19 PM
It's in the 3.5 DMG, so yeah. It's really weak though, I'd avoid it (stick with pure PsyWar, solve your 'unarmored' problem with long-duration Inertial Armor and in-combat Defensive Precognition).

Ponderthought
2010-08-03, 12:29 PM
If your thinking of a psychic warrior, you might want to dip into the elocater prc. It would probably work well with an evil character, both mechanics wise and for feel what with teleport-striking, flanking from bizarre angles and floating several inches off the ground at any given time like your out of the goddamn Exorcist.

Rigor_Mortis
2010-08-03, 12:32 PM
Hrmm, I liked the Duelist for the +int to AC but that's the only reason I wanted it tbh. Good point.

However!
Holy Crap!

I just checked out the Chameleon PrC, It's AWESOME!
I mean, WOW. That would give me so much roleplaying opportunities it isn't funny. I could really screw with the rest of the party.

Especially if I went changeling or another doppleganger (are there many?) race and changed my appearance too like someone suggested.