OOTS #740 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Drolyt]

Yay, new comic! What are the chances of that? Oh right, like 100%.

Edit: Also, pet orangutan. Elan's dad is awesome.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Smooth move. So I guess Durkon will be accepting that invitation now?

[afroakuma]

"Good job, son."

:smalltongue:

[Draconi Redfir]

oh wow when i loged on today we were still on 739. but anyways:


epiiiiccc

Heh… Orangutan innuendo…

[pflare]

Hilarious. "Give their pet orangutan a bath" I'm using that one

[Drolyt]

Smooth move. So I guess Durkon will be accepting that invitation now?

That depends entirely on whether it would advance the plot or allow for some good jokes.

[TheFallenOne]

that bump could have ended worse for Elan with all those spikes on the armor :smalltongue:

[Watcher]

Why did the general say "Good job" to the guard? :smalleek:

@V: Hmm. I hadn't thought about it that way. I guess it doesn't make sense that he would be overly nice to his guards, but with his personality...maybe? :smallconfused:

[Drolyt]

Why did the general say "Good job" to the guard? :smalleek:

Er, he said good job to Elan because of the way he interpreted pet orangutan. At least I thought that was what happened.

[Morquard]

that bump could have ended worse for Elan with all those spikes on the armor :smalltongue:

Don't be so dramatic, they're most likely totally non-magic spikes and don't do more than 1d6 damage.

[SPoD]

Yeah, "Good job, son" is Tarquin talking to himself, about Elan. As in, "Good job, Elan, for running off to have sex with your hot redheaded girlfriend, which has just been reported to me by this guard."

[Boogastreehouse]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute!

Haley gave that guy 500GP!?!

I know that at a high enough level player-characters don't even blink at sums of money that a person could live comfortably off of for years, but still this is Haley we're talking about!

So either she's under a mind-compulsion of some sort, or while pretending to give him 500GP, she actually picked his pocket and left him with nothing.

I can't think of any other reasonable explanation...

(Edit)

also awesome: We need to break Roy out of there! And then decide what to do about Belkar!

Alright, maybe Haley is still herself, and not being mind-controlled...

[Fargazer]

Hey now. You know how pet orangotans can smell. Baths are neccesary at LEAST once a week.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute!

Haley gave that guy 500GP!?!

I know that at a high enough level player-characters don't even blink at sums of money that a person could live comfortably off of for years, but still this is Haley we're talking about!

So either she's under a mind-compulsion of some sort, or while pretending to give him 500GP, she actually picked his pocket and left him with nothing.

I can't think of any other reasonable explanation...

It's either that or potentially piss off Tarquin. Haley's greedy, but she's not stupid.

[Ted The Bug]

Wouldn't it be easier for Elan to try to reason with Tarquin? It might mean that the General would have to admit an error, but I'm sure he'd be reasonable enough to accept it.
Let's see if someone misses my sarcasm.

[factotum]

Interesting that Haley seems quite willing to continue with the escape even though they don't technically need to...

[LuPuWei]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute!

Haley gave that guy 500GP!?!

I know that at a high enough level player-characters don't even blink at sums of money that a person could live comfortably off of for years, but still this is Haley we're talking about!

So either she's under a mind-compulsion of some sort, or while pretending to give him 500GP, she actually picked his pocket and left him with nothing.

I can't think of any other reasonable explanation...

We don't know that it actually has 500gp in it :smallbiggrin:

[Lorenzo]

Bathing the Orangutan is the name of my Discworld tribute band.
We have one song.

I'm going to be sad when Elan and Tarquin eventually have to fight.

[MartytheBioGuy]

Great comic!

My personal favorite was Haley deciding "what to do about Belkar." Hehe.

[Gray Mage]

We don't know that it actually has 500gp in it :smallbiggrin:

It probably has, the guard could easyly check after the Hold Person went off and I don't think he would lie to Tarquin if it was less than she said.

On another note, this is very similar to the example on Rich's diplomacy fix, so I think it really has 500gp in the bag.

[dps]

Anybody else catch that Haley wants to get Roy out of prison, and then decide what to do about Belkar? :smallbiggrin:

[Eldrys]

We don't know that it actually has 500gp in it :smallbiggrin:
But on the off-chance it does actually have all that gold, that's like 50 years pay for a guard.

[TheMac04]

Damn, Tarquin is so cool.

[suszterpatt]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute!

Haley gave that guy 500GP!?!

I know that at a high enough level player-characters don't even blink at sums of money that a person could live comfortably off of for years, but still this is Haley we're talking about!

So either she's under a mind-compulsion of some sort, or while pretending to give him 500GP, she actually picked his pocket and left him with nothing.

I can't think of any other reasonable explanation...

(Edit)

also awesome: We need to break Roy out of there! And then decide what to do about Belkar!

Alright, maybe Haley is still herself, and not being mind-controlled...
She's not just giving it away, she's buying something for her money. Of all people, Haley should know how bribes work.

[Connington]

Technically, part of the reason Haley's so stingy with money is because of her dad. With that no longer being a pressing issue, she's just got her natural greediness in the way, which is probably smaller than her instinct for self-preservation.

[pendell]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute!

Haley gave that guy 500GP!?!



If I were in the party, I'd call for a Doppleganger check.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hahaha, nice. So the party is together!

[SPoD]

Haley gave that guy 500GP!?!

She didn't give him the money, she bribed him with it. A bribe is like a purchase--money exchanged for services rendered--and Haley is not so obsessed with gold that she refuses to make purchases with her money.

Plus, she now has enough to free her father, so it's less urgent that she hold on to every last gold piece.

[Boogastreehouse]

Hilarious. "Give their pet orangutan a bath" I'm using that one

Well, Haley does have orange-ish hair...


...wait for it...





...or is that too trashy to allude to in this forum...?

[Connington]

Also, keep in mind that they guy was right there when they talked about breaking Roy out (and deciding what to do with Belkar). NPCs have ears (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) you know. The massive bribe was there to get him to lie to Tarquin.

[hamishspence]

I wonder if they'll be able to free Roy before the gladiatorial battles start?

Probably not.

[John Cribati]

That's what they're calling it, eh?

[Boogastreehouse]

She didn't give him the money, she bribed him with it. A bribe is like a purchase--money exchanged for services rendered--and Haley is not so obsessed with gold that she refuses to make purchases with her money.

Plus, she now has enough to free her father, so it's less urgent that she hold on to every last gold piece.


Also, keep in mind that they guy was right there when they talked about breaking Roy out (and deciding what to do with Belkar). NPCs have ears (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) you know. The massive bribe was there to get him to lie to Tarquin.

Yeah, I was just being silly—I understood why she did it—but I realize it's easy to take people literally on the forums.

[Faramir]

lol, love it.

[Dr.Epic]

Brilliant! The best comic in a while! Keep up the good work Rich!

edit: Now I'm off to give my pet orangutan a bath.

[Saphy]

Bwahaha. If only an escape could be that easy..

Poor Belkar. No love from Haley. Maybe Mr. Scruffy will be friends with the orangutan!

[Gift Jeraff]

:elan: That guard needs to get his brake lights check.
Loved it.

And it didn't occur to me until now that this arc may feature Durkon's Lawfulness being challenged.

Also, for some reason I just had a feeling the comic was going to update today, so I kept checking every few hours and lo and behold!

[JonestheSpy]

I wonder if they'll be able to free Roy before the gladiatorial battles start?


I certainly hope not.

[TheMac04]

Well, Haley does have orange-ish hair...


...wait for it...





...or is that too trashy to allude to in this forum...?

Ah, dude, no. Just....just no.

[Solara]

And it didn't occur to me until now that this arc may feature Durkon's Lawfulness being challenged.


I hope not, I currently have a lot of respect for Durkon and I'd hate to have to put him in the 'Lawful Stupid' category. :smallannoyed:

A tyrannical system of laws that puts people to death for not having papers or sneezing wrong or whatever does not really strike me as the kind it would be reasonable to insist on 'working within', especially when you've only got a week or so to do it.

...oh yeah and there's that whole 'entire world hanging in the balance' thing too, so it's not just about saving a couple of friends one friend and a useful psychopath.

[Strawberries]

I love the line "We need to break Roy out of there... and then decide what to do with Belkar"

Good job, Giant. :smallbiggrin:

[Drolyt]

Well, Haley does have orange-ish hair...


...wait for it...





...or is that too trashy to allude to in this forum...?

While, yeah this is a family friendly forum, but don't worry, everyone got your meaning.

[Marnath]

I like this recent insight into the way Durkon thinks/does things. I'm starting to really see how irrational and mercurial humans are from a demi-human standpoint, which is awesome because usually the protagonist is human. He really looks in today's strip like he's kind of annoyed that they'd even suggest breaking Roy and Mr. Stabby out of prison for something they actually did. :smallsmile:
I feel myself identifying with him more and more, since i'm a "stick in the mud" too.

*edit Also, i'm thinking that Elan's dad is probably the only person for whom that would be a "believeable" story as opposed to "we were tired."

[SPoD]

I hope not, I currently have a lot of respect for Durkon and I'd hate to have to put him in the 'Lawful Stupid' category. :smallannoyed:

A tyrannical system of laws that puts people to death for not having papers or sneezing wrong or whatever does not really strike me as the kind it would be reasonable to insist on 'working within', especially when you've only got a week or so to do it.

...oh yeah and there's that whole 'entire world hanging in the balance' thing too, so it's not just about saving a couple of friends one friend and a useful psychopath.

Keep in mind that Durkon does not know that they have been sentenced to die. He is probably under the impression that the crime carries a fine, community service, or a few days in jail, because that is what would be sane. Not wanting to commit a jailbreak to avoid three days of community service is not "Lawful Stupid".

In fact, Durkon doesn't even know that the trial has already taken place. "Working within the system" could mean, "Defending them at their trial and working towards acquittal."

[TheMac04]

You know what's funny to think about? The conversation in which Elan tries to convince Haley that this is a good excuse.

[Trixie]

I wonder if certain Orangutan in the Playground will like the reference :smallwink:

Also, Haley continues to make herself look more hypocritical and just plain out of touch with reality. Eh. I really begun hoping Oracle's prophecy for Elan means what it most likely did.

[zadcap]

From the PHB:
A lawful good character acts as a good
person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment
to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the
truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against
injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go
unpunished. Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and
protects the innocent without hesitation, is lawful good.

Following every law of every land, no matter how unjust, is not part of being Lawful Good. Being sentenced to death by arena seams quite an unjust penalty for not having papers, especially when they are easy enough to get that it takes less than a minute of talking and no proof required of what you say.

[jidasfire]

I hope not, I currently have a lot of respect for Durkon and I'd hate to have to put him in the 'Lawful Stupid' category. :smallannoyed:

A tyrannical system of laws that puts people to death for not having papers or sneezing wrong or whatever does not really strike me as the kind it would be reasonable to insist on 'working within', especially when you've only got a week or so to do it.

...oh yeah and there's that whole 'entire world hanging in the balance' thing too, so it's not just about saving a couple of friends one friend and a useful psychopath.

Well, in Durkon's defense in this situation, he doesn't seem to know how bad the Empire is just yet. For all he knows, Roy and Belkar are just trapped for a week or will have to pay some fines. Plus, Minister Malack was perfectly nice to him. If he realizes the kingdom they're in is particularly nasty, he'll probably do the right thing.

[Bongos]

I'm wondering why their first reaction isn't just asking Tarquin for a pardon? I mean Roy and Belkar were trying to help Elan, Tarquin's son, who had been kidnapped, seems to be a good premise for a pardon?

[SoC175]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute!

Haley gave that guy 500GP!?!

I know that at a high enough level player-characters don't even blink at sums of money that a person could live comfortably off of for years, but still this is Haley we're talking about!

So either she's under a mind-compulsion of some sort, or while pretending to give him 500GP, she actually picked his pocket and left him with nothing.

I can't think of any other reasonable explanation...

(Edit)

also awesome: We need to break Roy out of there! And then decide what to do about Belkar!

Alright, maybe Haley is still herself, and not being mind-controlled... Well, the Order is past a point where they're simply throwing away +1 rings of protection that are worth 2,000 gp

[Morph Bark]

I honestly had to chuckle an extra time when I realized most orangutans have colour similar to Haley's hair.

[Lupusater]

I gotta say I love this new updating speed... and the pet orangutan.

[TheMac04]

I gotta say I love this new updating speed... and the pet orangutan.

He's so cute!

[Doug Lampert]

You know what's funny to think about? The conversation in which Elan tries to convince Haley that this is a good excuse.

But it actually is a good excuse. It's good BECAUSE it's totally non-believable.

A sufficiently bad excuse is taken as a sarcastic statement of "none of your business", and hence kills the conversation without any need for a real explanation or a complicated lie you have to keep straight and with no real chance that there'll be a followup. Send that back and if Tarquin shows up to "get more details" it will be because he's decided he doesn't CARE about offending Elan.

Any plausible excuse that he believes there's a chance he'll decide to do something to "help". Which is bad.

I've used this method once or twice and it's quite reliable, and far safer than any actual lie you're likely to come up with. Note that in this case Tarquin has MADE UP what seems to him to be a reasonable explanation, and is now assuming it's true, that makes it a 100% successful lie (so far). And as long as they KEEP giving absurdities in answere to any questions he'll stick with that interpretation, they needn't keep anything straight.

"Orangatang? Nope, it was a monkey, I'm sure." Works FINE when the original story wasn't believed anyway. You needn't keep a lie straight when it's SUPPOSED to be transparently a lie.

[TerrickTerran]

That was a lot of fun especially with Tarquin's little quote at the end.

[TheMac04]

But it actually is a good excuse. It's good BECAUSE it's totally non-believable.

A sufficiently bad excuse is taken as a sarcastic statement of "none of your business", and hence kills the conversation without any need for a real explanation or a complicated lie you have to keep straight and with no real chance that there'll be a followup. Send that back and if Tarquin shows up to "get more details" it will be because he's decided he doesn't CARE about offending Elan.

Any plausible excuse that he believes there's a chance he'll decide to do something to "help". Which is bad.

I've used this method once or twice and it's quite reliable, and far safer than any actual lie you're likely to come up with. Note that in this case Tarquin has MADE UP what seems to him to be a reasonable explanation, and is now assuming it's true, that makes it a 100% successful lie (so far). And as long as they KEEP giving absurdities in answere to any questions he'll stick with that interpretation, they needn't keep anything straight.

"Orangatang? Nope, it was a monkey, I'm sure." Works FINE when the original story wasn't believed anyway. You needn't keep a lie straight when it's SUPPOSED to be transparently a lie.

Yeah, but ELAN doesn't understand all of that. And Haley certainly wouldn't have thought it through that much either. Thus, still funny.

[JustRain]

Hilarious!!! The ending was awesome, so Elan-ish.

[Marnath]

Stuff

Thats all true, but i guess you missed the post above yours where it's theorized that he doesn't even know yet they've been sentenced to death? By what he knows, all that's going on is they're chilling in a jail cell for not having paperwork. Thats certainly in the realm of things a LG would let happen.

[talkamancer]

So are we thinking Belkar will end in the arena, if only Roy is busted out ?

[TheMac04]

So are we thinking Belkar will end in the arena, if only Roy is busted out ?
I'm thinking they both make it into the arena and fight a few battles. Then during one of Belkar's fights, Haley, Elan, V, and Durkon burst onto the battlefield somehow, which distracts Belkar and gets him killed. Could be even more tragic if he's fighting Roy at the time, and Roy accidentally stabs him.

[Athaniar]

"We need to break Roy out of there! And then decide what to do about Belkar!"

Classic. Wonder how all this is going to be resolved, though. Will Tarquin try to stop them if they do decide to break Roy (and perhaps Belkar) out?

[TheMac04]

Tarquin doesn't seem like he actually cares about the laws of the kingdom. It;s not like it's actually his empire. He just works for the Empress. He probably won't oppose them unless it puts his job at risk.

[Badgercloak]

This! Made! My! Day!:smallbiggrin:

Giant you ROCK!

[Wonton]

HOLY CRAP TARQUIN CALLED THE GUARD "SON" IT'S CLEARLY NALE OR ANOTHER SIBLING WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT YET!!!

Just kidding. ;)

[Almaseti]

The orangutan thing sounds like a really dirty euphemism when you remember that Haley is a natural redhead. Nice.

Honestly, if Elan asks nicely, I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin jusr orders Roy and Belkar released. It's not like he doesn't have the power or inclination to spoil his non-murderous son. And he certainly doesn't mind bending the rules here and there.

[Marnath]

The orangutan thing sounds like a really dirty euphemism when you remember that Haley is a natural redhead. Nice.

Honestly, if Elan asks nicely, I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin jusr orders Roy and Belkar released. It's not like he doesn't have the power or inclination to spoil his non-murderous son. And he certainly doesn't mind bending the rules here and there.

Yeah that could work, but then what would be the point of the gladiator scene set-up? I predict there'll be at least a few strips where they fight in the arena before anything happens.

[GSFB]

I don't think Belkar will die in the arena. Belkar is a major character and his death at this point would be bad writing. Belkar will die near the end of the story, in a way that has a serious impact on the plot at a crucial moment.

[TheMac04]

I don't think Belkar will die in the arena. Belkar is a major character and his death at this point would be bad writing. Belkar will die near the end of the story, in a way that has a serious impact on the plot at a crucial moment.
You really think they'll reach the final confrontation in five weeks?

[SPoD]

You really think they'll reach the final confrontation in five weeks?

If he doesn't, I do. Half of Paladin Blues and all of War and XPs ate up about ten days of actual calendar time, and the Order has far faster means of travel now than they did then. We could easily see the rest of this book take up less than a week, and then have them zoom to the last gate, where Belkar dies.

[TheMac04]

If he doesn't, I do. Half of Paladin Blues and all of War and XPs ate up about ten days of actual calendar time, and the Order has far faster means of travel now than they did then. We could easily see the rest of this book take up less than a week, and then have them zoom to the last gate, where Belkar dies.
I have a feeling there's going to be a reason that fast means of travel will be negated somehow for the trip to the last gate, and the journey will have to be made on foot. Seems more dramatic.

[Acero]

TARQUIN CALLED THE GUARD "SON" IT'S CLEARLY NALE OR ANOTHER SIBLING WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT YET!!!

Just kidding. ;)

Nale got a tan.

[Dr.Epic]

I certainly hope not.

Meh. A gladiator fight might seem like a quidditch match or pod race.

[Marnath]

Meh. A gladiator fight might seem like a quidditch match or pod race.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :smallconfused:

[TheMac04]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :smallconfused:
How many people liked Phantom Menace?

I think the good doctor is wrong on this one though. How would the gladiator fights be any different from a normal fight?

[Marnath]

How would they be different, aside from being half-naked and using only crappy mundane gear you mean?

[TheMac04]

How would they be different, aside from being half-naked and using only crappy mundane gear you mean?
Yeah. I mean, half-naked doesn't change very much, and Roy used mundane gear for an entire story arc. In fact, it might make the fights even MORE brutal.

[Lemur Bear]

What I see as the most likely occurrence is the gladiatorial fights wage on for part of a comic. Roy and Belkar will end up having to fight. Roy doesn't want to kill Belkar, but Belkar goes and tries to kill him regardless only to be intervened by a pardon from Tarquin. Probably, after the pardon, Belkar gives Roy a non-serious wound any way because he was so pumped to do it.

[ShippoWildheart]

Tarquin just won an internet in my book.

[ref]

Yeah, "Good job, son" is Tarquin talking to himself, about Elan. As in, "Good job, Elan, for running off to have sex with your hot redheaded girlfriend, which has just been reported to me by this guard."

And who has nice round perky eyes. SpoD has it right.

[TheMac04]

And who has nice round perky eyes. SpoD has it right.
Is that a catch phrase now?

[B.I.T.T.]

Thanks to reading these comics at work/in libraries I have perfected a method of laughing quietly. Today, I failed to. Jolly good show.

[GSFB]

I agree about the five weeks. Each individual comic takes up only a few minutes of time on average. Sure, there are some interludes, but entire story arcs can take only a few days of story-calendar time, compared to many months of reading one comic at a time as they trickle out every few days. Belkar could easily have YEARS of real-world time ahead of him as the next five weeks of story-calendar play out.

[krossbow]

So much win in this one. that final panel just made my day :smallbiggrin:

[Nimrod's Son]

Is that a catch phrase now?
Has been for some time, actually.

[TheMac04]

Has been for some time, actually.
Curse my noobness.

[2xMachina]

I think it would have been easier to request Tarquin to free Roy. It's an LE empire. Connections can do lots of things.

[Avilan the Grey]

Bathing the Orangutan is the name of my Discworld tribute band.
We have one song.

"Anarchy In Ank-Morpork?"

[BridgeCity]

In all honesty, I don't think Roy should be all that conflicted about killing Belkar in the arena.

A few quick reasons:
Its not murder, because its legally sanctioned in the country.
Roy has stated he only keeps him around because it is too dangerous to have him loose, nothing about friendship or positive feelings for the guy.
He doesn't plan to rez him or warn him about his upcoming death.
Given that Belkar is (almost certainly) evil, it would actually be within Roy's good alignment to off the little sucker.

As for the 'Belkar is useful' arguement, he isn't useful to Roy if he kills Roy, so that wouldn't hold up in that situation.

I'm not saying Roy will end up killing Belkar, I'm just saying that I don't think he should be all that conflicted by it if it comes up.

[TheMac04]

In all honesty, I don't think Roy should be all that conflicted about killing Belkar in the arena.

A few quick reasons:
Its not murder, because its legally sanctioned in the country.
Roy has stated he only keeps him around because it is too dangerous to have him loose, nothing about friendship or positive feelings for the guy.
He doesn't plan to rez him or warn him about his upcoming death.
Given that Belkar is (almost certainly) evil, it would actually be within Roy's good alignment to off the little sucker.

As for the 'Belkar is useful' arguement, he isn't useful to Roy if he kills Roy, so that wouldn't hold up in that situation.

I'm not saying Roy will end up killing Belkar, I'm just saying that I don't think he should be all that conflicted by it if it comes up.
I don't think Roy could bring himself to do that, personally. Doesn't matter if he despises Belkar, I just don't think he would do it. Unless Belkar was actively trying to murder him, of course.

[Nimrod's Son]

Possible typo in panel ten: Durkon says "witin". It could just be his accent, I guess, but I don't remember Durkon ever pronouncing "th" as "t" before.

[Tundar]

Smooth one, Elan.
Go wash that orangutan!

[factotum]

If he doesn't, I do. Half of Paladin Blues and all of War and XPs ate up about ten days of actual calendar time, and the Order has far faster means of travel now than they did then.

The only faster means of travel the Order currently has is Wind Walk. Wind Walk is Durkon's spell, and we know that Durkon arrives back at his homeland dead--so for them to use Wind Walk to travel to the final gate, we'd have to assume Durkon drops dead of a heart attack or something just before they cross the border into dwarven territory!

[Querzis]

I don't think Roy could bring himself to do that, personally. Doesn't matter if he despises Belkar, I just don't think he would do it. Unless Belkar was actively trying to murder him, of course.

...Which comic have you been reading? Belkar has been actively trying to murder him for a while now, hes just smart enough to not to fight him directly because he know he would lose.

[Killer Angel]

500 gp?!?
wow, since when Haley doesn't care 'bout money? :smalltongue:

Great strip, as always

[LuPuWei]

...Which comic have you been reading? Belkar has been actively trying to murder him for a while now, hes just smart enough to not to fight him directly because he know he would lose.

I doubt Roy would lose- I think its more because he feels responsible for Belkar now in the way he does for Elan (admitting of course, his two charges are polar opposites [how's that for a pun?]) He's been looking after Belkar for so long, it would be just cold for him to kill Belkar now, especially when he seems to be growing a conscience.

[hamishspence]

...Which comic have you been reading? Belkar has been actively trying to murder him for a while now, hes just smart enough to not to fight him directly because he know he would lose.

When? Giving Roy the ring doesn't count as "actively trying to murder him". Both Belkar & Celia agree on this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

And waiting a bit to intervene in the bar fight doesn't really count either.

[Santiago]

LOL! Time for me and the girlfriend to wash the orangutan.

[Garwain]

And Durkon gave the fourth wall another pounding...

[The MunchKING]

Hilarious. "Give their pet orangutan a bath" I'm using that one

When ten year olds do it, it's "Giving the monkey a shower". :smalltongue:

This is a phineus and Ferb Refference where they give a literal monkey a shower...

[Connington]

When ten year olds do it, it's "Giving the monkey a shower".

That's not appropriate discussion material for this forum :smalltongue:

[Kareasint]

And Durkon gave the fourth wall another pounding...

He used Thor's Might and went completely through it.

I wonder when the guard is going to decide to retire. 500 gp is a lot of money for a mook.

[Blaznak]

Hee hee! Pet orangutan a bath...

[BridgeCity]

I don't think Roy could bring himself to do that, personally. Doesn't matter if he despises Belkar, I just don't think he would do it. Unless Belkar was actively trying to murder him, of course.

Yeah thats what I was saying. I don't think Roy would do it in the outside world, but in an arena death match where there is no other option, I don't really think he should feel bad about it, (I'm not saying there are no other options, just putting together my own little scenario).

And about the feeling responsible thing (sorry cant remember who said it) Roy himself has stated he only feels responsible because he keeps people safe from Belkar, which killing him in the arena would do, (assuming the arena doesn't res prisoners, because that would be stupid).

I'd be pretty happy to watch Roy carve a slice out of Belkar.

[Omergideon]

A very much plot related/plot advancement strip this time, and certainly not a bad one. It is however one of the more underwhelming strips in recent weeks for me. I am trying of course to be objective here but I found the plot advancement to me more predictable and less interesting than is normal. Still plenty of very good jokes in the strip though.

The Good:
1) The jokes. The jokes in this comic are for the most part quite amusing, and extremely character based. My least favourite aspect of comedy is both puns and when the joke is absurd but forced into the situation by the environment. Character humour I find to be more inventive and funnier so with the jokes being almost entirely based on the people they are and flowing naturally it works. Particularly the punchline strip.
2) Durkon was both efficient and awesome this strip. Not only does he get the job done quickly and efficiently but he effortlessly takes command of the situation. Back in the day one could have argued that haley was Roy''s 2ndIC, but more recently it has really become Durkon. We don't learn anything new about his character except to confirm just how much he is willing to follow the law. He may have become more willing to joke, to compromise and stuff but he is clear here that the law was broken and that is that. Very much Lawful here. Nothing new as I said but he shows himself again to be the most competent member of the order.

The Bad:
1) The general storyline progression. We seem to have reached a sort of dead end in the story progression at this moment. I am not saying it is bad overall or that it is simply that I don't like what happened, but this aspect of it feels like something has been wasted. The rescue of Haley/Elan could have lasted 2/3 strips and yielded some excellent running gags and wonderful action. instead we get a 3 panel scene, some discussion of what happened and little else. none of it was bad in itself but it could have been so much more. A rare misstep IMO for the giant here.

Not too many elements to discuss in this comic and my feelings feel contradictory. What we see is good enough in it's own right but feels like more should have happened. There are no big character moments, no real disussuions taking place, some funny jokes but none which are laugh out loud hilarious. This is not in itself bad of course. Sometimes we just need to move the story along and sometimes relatively dull scenes need to occur. I just overall feel like more could have been done in and with the strip to make it stand out more. 2.5 stars overall, maybe 3 if read in sequence and not standalone. It works but it could have been better. In some ways it reminds me more of the older gag a day strips from the start of the comic actually, though if you prefer that then you will of course enjoy the strip more.

(and now I predict at least one response telling me I am wrong for daring to suggest the giant could have written a better strip and evil for doing so, but such is life)

[BridgeCity]

(and now I predict at least one response telling me I am wrong for daring to suggest the giant could have written a better strip and evil for doing so, but such is life)

Well, I agree with most of what you said, (I didn't find anything in the strip funny). I did really like seeing Durkon take control, as you pointed out, and respected that he made it clear that he is a dwarf of principle.

[Thoran]

Yeah. I mean, half-naked doesn't change very much, and Roy used mundane gear for an entire story arc. In fact, it might make the fights even MORE brutal.

Actually being half-naked does change a lot. Roy is a fighter who relies on his armor for his AC, he probably doesn't have much of a Dex score. It's possible that he has an AC of 10 or very close to it once he's been stripped of his armor and magical items and is only wearing a loincloth.

I can't think of very many fighters of Roy's level who would be unworried about the prospect of fighting an encounter without armor or magical gear. Belkar would be in a better position being a Dex-based Ranger. In fact this might be his best opportunity to take Roy out himself.

[Larkspur]

Off to see the seamstresses, hem hem?

Asking Tarquin for a pardon does seem the better part of wisdom here.

[Poppy Appletree]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute!

Haley gave that guy 500GP!?!

I know that at a high enough level player-characters don't even blink at sums of money that a person could live comfortably off of for years, but still this is Haley we're talking about!

So either she's under a mind-compulsion of some sort, or while pretending to give him 500GP, she actually picked his pocket and left him with nothing.

My first thought when I saw that bag of gold was that Haley was taking advantage of the guard's paralysis in order to rob him. :smallbiggrin:

[Dr Bwaa]

Thor's sternum!

Durkon's exclamations me part may be my favorite part of OotS.

[rewinn]

Yeah thats what I was saying. I don't think Roy would do it in the outside world, but in an arena death match where there is no other option, I don't really think he should feel bad about it, (I'm not saying there are no other options, just putting together my own little scenario).


:elan:Roy's a hero. He's not going to kill a teammember, not even Belkar. A hopeless battle against a thousand guards is much more likely.

Belkar, OTOH ...

[Bongos]

How'd the Orangutan get so dirty? And who's familiar is it?

[kolbaldoracle]

i dont think belker will take the chance at killing roy. A: because roy lets him kill lots of monsters for exp. and B: because if roy died then he wouldnt get lots of magic items from xykons dungons

[suszterpatt]

i dont think belker will take the chance at killing roy. A: because roy lets him kill lots of monsters for exp. and B: because if roy died then he wouldnt get lots of magic items from xykons dungonsLike Belkar needs an excuse to kill things and take their stuff?

[Bongos]

i dont think belker will take the chance at killing roy. A: because roy lets him kill lots of monsters for exp. and B: because if roy died then he wouldnt get lots of magic items from xykons dungons

I also do not think Belkar thinks like this when it comes to killing. More like,
"Wow, I'm in a situation where I can not only kill Roy, but it's expected of me, with no legal consequences? and people are cheering me on to do it? Yeah me!"

[LuPuWei]

And about the feeling responsible thing (sorry cant remember who said it) Roy himself has stated he only feels responsible because he keeps people safe from Belkar, which killing him in the arena would do, (assuming the arena doesn't res prisoners, because that would be stupid).

If Roy was the sort who would kill Belkar, he could have done it a million times out in the open- being in an arena doesn't really change things at all. For one thing, Roy is Lawful Good, and the arena laws are those of a Lawful Evil empire. As Miko proved, following bad laws just to be lawful can result in a serious hit to Good.

Anyway, more to the spirit- Belkar hasn't done anything wrong. Sure, Belkar's engaged in several unwarranted murders during his career, and his actions place him straight into the Evil side of the spectrum. But if his crimes didn't warrant death at Roy's hands before this, he hasn't done anything now for things to change.

[factotum]

Anyway, more to the spirit- Belkar hasn't done anything wrong. Sure, Belkar's engaged in several unwarranted murders during his career, and his actions place him straight into the Evil side of the spectrum. But if his crimes didn't warrant death at Roy's hands before this, he hasn't done anything now for things to change.

I'd argue Belkar has done plenty of stuff wrong...murder usually counts as wrong, m'kay? :smallwink:

However, you're right in the other point you make. When Roy was being interviewed by the deva he asked at one point if she was suggesting he cut Belkar's throat while he sleeps, and she said No. Clearly the Lawful Good thing to do here is *not* to kill Belkar, or she'd have been quite happy with that approach.

[Laeranu]

I'm begining to get bored with the script myself. the first comics were the funniest by far (or at least if you know about DnD). why can't we have more jokes like that.

also i think everythings begining to drag on. I mean, not so long ago it took a whole book ( and the biggist book so far i might add) just to get the team to spit up and then get back together. Ok, that time it wasn't that bad because it was still very funny and had quite a lot of plot (if you haven't noticed yet, i think that plot is important), but this time it is geting boring. i mean, it took Durkon like 3 comics just to have a conversation with that lizard priest guy.
Can't they get around to the festavil and the saving Roy part, (not Belkar because, as the Oricle said, he is going to die soon, and i think 'soon' means in the galadiator arena)

I don't know about you but i can but i can barely remember Zykon, Redcloak and the rest of them. when are the OotS going to get back to the Gates?!

[Laeranu]

Taken from Laeranu
Can't they get around to the festavil and the saving Roy part, (not Belkar because, as the Oricle said, he is going to die soon, and i think 'soon' means in the galadiator arena)

Anyway, back to the story.
Im really not sure about Belkar. I mean, the oricle did predict that belkar would die soon, and I think that if he does die it will be in the Gladiator Arena, but there's one thing bugging me about that. I've heard that The Giant said that we're only 1/2 way through the story. And 1/2 a story without one of the main characters wouldn't be that good.

I suppose that the Oricle and Belkar do really hate each other, so the Oricle could just have been trying to frighten him.

So is Belkar going to die soon or what?

Any ideas guys?

[kolbaldoracle]

now the oracle said that belker was going to die before the end of that in-comic year.now seeing as how we dont know how long an in-game year is, belker could die at any time in the comic strip. now what i think will happen is that belker will die and then those IFCC guys will ressurrect him or somwthing like that

[SPoD]

The only faster means of travel the Order currently has is Wind Walk. Wind Walk is Durkon's spell, and we know that Durkon arrives back at his homeland dead--so for them to use Wind Walk to travel to the final gate, we'd have to assume Durkon drops dead of a heart attack or something just before they cross the border into dwarven territory!

Never has it been outright stated that Kraagor's Gate is in dwarven lands. They are simply both in the arctic north of the world. The Order could wind walk to Kraagor's Gate, go through the final battle, Durkon and Belkar are both killed, and the Order walks Durkon's body over to the dwarven homelands afterwards for a resurrection.

[LuPuWei]

I'd argue Belkar has done plenty of stuff wrong...murder usually counts as wrong, m'kay? :smallwink:


Well, I meant since Roy's last decision not to kill Belkar in his sleep. But yeah, you got the spirit part right...

[kolbaldoracle]

Never has it been outright stated that Kraagor's Gate is in dwarven lands. They are simply both in the arctic north of the world. The Order could wind walk to Kraagor's Gate, go through the final battle, Durkon and Belkar are both killed, and the Order walks Durkon's body over to the dwarven homelands afterwards for a resurrection.

hey now lets not forget that the order hasnt found the real location of girads gate and that tarquin may know something about girad

[SPoD]

hey now lets not forget that the order hasnt found the real location of girads gate and that tarquin may know something about girad

I'm having a separate conversation regarding whether the plot could wrap up in a few weeks. I am in no way suggesting that they would go to Kraagor's Gate NOW.

[DoctorJest]

now what i think will happen is that belker will die and then those IFCC guys will ressurrect him or somwthing like that

I believe that would violate the prophecy.

[MarkusWolfe]

But on the off-chance it does actually have all that gold, that's like 50 years pay for a guard.


He used Thor's Might and went completely through it.

I wonder when the guard is going to decide to retire. 500 gp is a lot of money for a mook.

Guards only get 10gp a year? Man, with wages like that, no wonder there are so many small entrepreneurial organizations adventuring parties about!

[factotum]

Never has it been outright stated that Kraagor's Gate is in dwarven lands.

Maybe not, but that seems like the most likely interpretation of what we DO know. As for the idea that the Oracle's prophecy means they're just popping over to the Dwarven lands to get him rezzed, don't forget the reason he was exiled from Dwarven lands in the first place--namely, the prophecy that Durkon will bring death and destruction with him when he returns home! It would suck mightily if all that death and destruction happened as a kind of epilogue after the main story is over.

[SoC175]

Guards only get 10gp a year? Man, with wages like that, no wonder there are so many small entrepreneurial organizations adventuring parties about! Copper pieces are in the game for a reason, it's what most weekly wages are paid in. Saving a enough to have single gold piece is huge for most of the population

[TheMac04]

Copper pieces are in the game for a reason, it's what most weekly wages are paid in. Saving a enough to have single gold piece is huge for most of the population
Basically, adventurers are like insanely rich business man who kill dragons.

[Tobimaro]

And Durkon gave the fourth wall another pounding...

I wonder if he is approaching Elan's Genre Savvyness. :smallbiggrin: And Elan's quick thinking :smallamused: saves the day yet again (at least with a person who is willing to buy Elan's explanation.) :smallwink:

[Doug Lampert]

Copper pieces are in the game for a reason, it's what most weekly wages are paid in. Saving a enough to have single gold piece is huge for most of the population

No. Not even close by any reading of the rules.

Copper is the small change of the D&D world, even for commoners. A level 1 human commoner with all 10s or 11s for his abilities earns 8.5 GP per week based on taking either profession or craft, and that's WITHOUT investing 50 GP in masterwork tools for an extra GP per week and while cutting down his average return by taking 10.

That gives annual earnings of 442 GP for level 1 commoners with the astonishing optimization of spending 4 of their 12 skill points and one of their 2 feats on ANY profession or craft skill.

If he then spends 50 GP on a set of masterwork tools his annual return goes up to 494 GP.

When he reaches middle age and one of Int or Wis hits 12 points his annual income reaches 520 GP.

If our commoner fails life forever and has abilities of 3 in EVERYTHING and no useful skills or feats, then he can STILL be told by his mommy that craft can be used untrained (quite clear in the rules) and that craft clearly states it can be used to earn an income based on the check result (also no ambiguity in the rules), and he can STILL earn 3 GP/week by taking 10 on his -4 modifier craft skill.

If he's a homeless vagrant who can only be hired for unskilled day labor since he can't commit to a full week at once, THEN he's finally down to MAYBE being paid in copper. But he still earns enough that payment in silver even for one day would be perfectly possible. (And he either dies of exposure or starvation, but that's another matter.)

If he's a beggar with no skills and no willingness to work then he gets 1d10 copper per day (based on descriptions in the perform skill). We've finally reached the level of incomes measured in copper, but even this beggar will average 2.86 GP per year if he somehow avoids death by starvation.

[Kish]

now the oracle said that belker was going to die before the end of that in-comic year.now seeing as how we dont know how long an in-game year is,

...but Roy clarified that there were only seven weeks left in this one, a week or two ago...

now what i think will happen is that belker will die and then those IFCC guys will ressurrect him or somwthing like that
The Oracle said last breath ever. Also, "not long for the world."

[Querzis]

No. Not even close by any reading of the rules.

Copper is the small change of the D&D world, even for commoners. A level 1 human commoner with all 10s or 11s for his abilities earns 8.5 GP per week based on taking either profession or craft, and that's WITHOUT investing 50 GP in masterwork tools for an extra GP per week and while cutting down his average return by taking 10.

That gives annual earnings of 442 GP for level 1 commoners with the astonishing optimization of spending 4 of their 12 skill points and one of their 2 feats on ANY profession or craft skill.

If he then spends 50 GP on a set of masterwork tools his annual return goes up to 494 GP.

When he reaches middle age and one of Int or Wis hits 12 points his annual income reaches 520 GP.

If our commoner fails life forever and has abilities of 3 in EVERYTHING and no useful skills or feats, then he can STILL be told by his mommy that craft can be used untrained (quite clear in the rules) and that craft clearly states it can be used to earn an income based on the check result (also no ambiguity in the rules), and he can STILL earn 3 GP/week by taking 10 on his -4 modifier craft skill.

If he's a homeless vagrant who can only be hired for unskilled day labor since he can't commit to a full week at once, THEN he's finally down to MAYBE being paid in copper. But he still earns enough that payment in silver even for one day would be perfectly possible. (And he either dies of exposure or starvation, but that's another matter.)

If he's a beggar with no skills and no willingness to work then he gets 1d10 copper per day (based on descriptions in the perform skill). We've finally reached the level of incomes measured in copper, but even this beggar will average 2.86 GP per year if he somehow avoids death by starvation.

Just to add to this, I would say Palace guards, which are usually stronger then the usual army and are usually between level 2-5 could probably get around 1000g per year if they are good at their job. I mean, did anyone even look at what house, clothes or common furniture cost? Tent cost 10g, a normal belt cost 1g and a simple house with only 1-3 rooms cost 1000g. And you actually think most people are paid in copper? If everyone would be paid in copper then everyone would be starving on the street. 500g is a huge bribe but not that huge. If you wanna bribe a palace guard to do a lie that could make him lose his job, 500g is almost a minimum.

So yes, this basically means a level 1 commoner can earn more gold then a level 1 adventurer. And many adventurers dont get past level 1. Sure you can become incredibly rich and powerful in the higher level but there is a reason why most people dont go on adventure (well that and the fact that most give up after getting their ass kicked the first time).

[Mistalion]

You are thinking of commoners who can DO things. The rules are different for skilled laborers/craftsmen and for peasants. Or rather, they aren't, but the DM doesn't assume every peasant is churning out weapons/items/whatever.

Also, the PHB pretty clearly said how much the pieces were worth, in labor, as a point of reference for players. Even if RAW countermands that, and a peasant totally could make a gold piece a week if he applied himself, it's obvious that he doesn't.

[Secris]

Can we just agree 500 gold is a lot for someone other than an adventurer, dragon, or leader/noble? It may not be a lifetime's worth of money to the Guard, but it's not spare change to him either. If someone hands you five thousand dollars, you aren't going to say "Psh, whatever, I make that in X weeks/months" you're gonna say "Sweet, five thousand dollars! Thanks!"

[Lemur Bear]

hey now lets not forget that the order hasnt found the real location of girads gate and that tarquin may know something about girad

I haven't gone backward in the forums, but has any one consider that after the Order of the Scribble broke up that Girard might have joined another adventuring party...say, I don't know, Tarquin and Malack? As such, Tarquin only knows a few things about Girard but his current location is something vague as in "somewhere in the next city over." I mean, I would enjoy a joke where Tarquin says, "Oh yeah, he left me an I.O.U. with a sending number" and hands them a card with information to "call" Girard, but I think it would be more in style to have random exposition on adventuring with Girard with an annoyingly vague anti-climatic ending of "beats me exactly where." I mean, it is Elan's dad...dramatics runs in the family.

[Boogastreehouse]

You are thinking of commoners who can DO things. The rules are different for skilled laborers/craftsmen and for peasants. Or rather, they aren't, but the DM doesn't assume every peasant is churning out weapons/items/whatever.

Also, the PHB pretty clearly said how much the pieces were worth, in labor, as a point of reference for players. Even if RAW countermands that, and a peasant totally could make a gold piece a week if he applied himself, it's obvious that he doesn't.

Yes, I agree. A commoner might have the potential to be a craftsman, but the economy can only support a small number of craftsmen. That commoner is 99% likely to be a farmer and he'll be using his craft skill to do his own repairs on his house and barn. His wife will use her craft skill to mend the family's clothes and prepare their meals (since gender equality is often achieved before gunpowder in fantasy campaigns, I'll grant that the husband might be the one caring for the home while the wife works in the fields).

Also, craftsmen probably have more overhead than a farmer; in a feudal society both have to pay taxes but the craftsman probably has to pay higher taxes for a shop in the town, purchase materials, pay guild dues, buy dragon insurance, buy nicer clothes so people will want to buy goods from him in the first place, and so on...

[TheMac04]

I haven't gone backward in the forums, but has any one consider that after the Order of the Scribble broke up that Girard might have joined another adventuring party...say, I don't know, Tarquin and Malack? As such, Tarquin only knows a few things about Girard but his current location is something vague as in "somewhere in the next city over." I mean, I would enjoy a joke where Tarquin says, "Oh yeah, he left me an I.O.U. with a sending number" and hands them a card with information to "call" Girard, but I think it would be more in style to have random exposition on adventuring with Girard with an annoyingly vague anti-climatic ending of "beats me exactly where." I mean, it is Elan's dad...dramatics runs in the family.
That would be SO AWESOME.

[MarkusWolfe]

Copper pieces are in the game for a reason, it's what most weekly wages are paid in. Saving a enough to have single gold piece is huge for most of the population


Basically, adventurers are like insanely rich business man who kill dragons.


No. Not even close by any reading of the rules.

Copper is the small change of the D&D world, even for commoners. A level 1 human commoner with all 10s or 11s for his abilities earns 8.5 GP per week based on taking either profession or craft, and that's WITHOUT investing 50 GP in masterwork tools for an extra GP per week and while cutting down his average return by taking 10.

That gives annual earnings of 442 GP for level 1 commoners with the astonishing optimization of spending 4 of their 12 skill points and one of their 2 feats on ANY profession or craft skill.

If he then spends 50 GP on a set of masterwork tools his annual return goes up to 494 GP.

When he reaches middle age and one of Int or Wis hits 12 points his annual income reaches 520 GP.

If our commoner fails life forever and has abilities of 3 in EVERYTHING and no useful skills or feats, then he can STILL be told by his mommy that craft can be used untrained (quite clear in the rules) and that craft clearly states it can be used to earn an income based on the check result (also no ambiguity in the rules), and he can STILL earn 3 GP/week by taking 10 on his -4 modifier craft skill.

If he's a homeless vagrant who can only be hired for unskilled day labor since he can't commit to a full week at once, THEN he's finally down to MAYBE being paid in copper. But he still earns enough that payment in silver even for one day would be perfectly possible. (And he either dies of exposure or starvation, but that's another matter.)

If he's a beggar with no skills and no willingness to work then he gets 1d10 copper per day (based on descriptions in the perform skill). We've finally reached the level of incomes measured in copper, but even this beggar will average 2.86 GP per year if he somehow avoids death by starvation.


Just to add to this, I would say Palace guards, which are usually stronger then the usual army and are usually between level 2-5 could probably get around 1000g per year if they are good at their job. I mean, did anyone even look at what house, clothes or common furniture cost? Tent cost 10g, a normal belt cost 1g and a simple house with only 1-3 rooms cost 1000g. And you actually think most people are paid in copper? If everyone would be paid in copper then everyone would be starving on the street. 500g is a huge bribe but not that huge. If you wanna bribe a palace guard to do a lie that could make him lose his job, 500g is almost a minimum.

So yes, this basically means a level 1 commoner can earn more gold then a level 1 adventurer. And many adventurers dont get past level 1. Sure you can become incredibly rich and powerful in the higher level but there is a reason why most people dont go on adventure (well that and the fact that most give up after getting their ass kicked the first time).


You are thinking of commoners who can DO things. The rules are different for skilled laborers/craftsmen and for peasants. Or rather, they aren't, but the DM doesn't assume every peasant is churning out weapons/items/whatever.

Also, the PHB pretty clearly said how much the pieces were worth, in labor, as a point of reference for players. Even if RAW countermands that, and a peasant totally could make a gold piece a week if he applied himself, it's obvious that he doesn't.


Yes, I agree. A commoner might have the potential to be a craftsman, but the economy can only support a small number of craftsmen. That commoner is 99% likely to be a farmer and he'll be using his craft skill to do his own repairs on his house and barn. His wife will use her craft skill to mend the family's clothes and prepare their meals (since gender equality is often achieved before gunpowder in fantasy campaigns, I'll grant that the husband might be the one caring for the home while the wife works in the fields).

Also, craftsmen probably have more overhead than a farmer; in a feudal society both have to pay taxes but the craftsman probably has to pay higher taxes for a shop in the town, purchase materials, pay guild dues, buy dragon insurance, buy nicer clothes so people will want to buy goods from him in the first place, and so on...


Can we just agree 500 gold is a lot for someone other than an adventurer, dragon, or leader/noble? It may not be a lifetime's worth of money to the Guard, but it's not spare change to him either. If someone hands you five thousand dollars, you aren't going to say "Psh, whatever, I make that in X weeks/months" you're gonna say "Sweet, five thousand dollars! Thanks!"

*whistles*
Quite the conversation I managed to work up. And to think all I had to say was


Guards only get 10gp a year? Man, with wages like that, no wonder there are so many small entrepreneurial organizations adventuring parties about!

:amused:

[TheMac04]

Markus is the God of conversation-starters.

[cc_kizz]

I'm just tickled that the guard is passing on this untruth with that bag of gold hanging from his belt… :smallsmile:

Awesome comic. And Yay! Durkon did catch up with them (as I'd hoped) and not get lost or tangled in another mess. :-)

[Detrinex]

*edit Also, i'm thinking that Elan's dad is probably the only person for whom that would be a "believeable" story as opposed to "we were tired."

The believability is in the fact that he thinks it's a flimsy euphemism for Elan doing the "no-no cha-cha" with Haley.

[TheMac04]

The believability is in the fact that he thinks it's a flimsy euphemism for Elan doing the "no-no cha-cha" with Haley.
Speaking of flimsy euphemisms....

[Doug Lampert]

You are thinking of commoners who can DO things. The rules are different for skilled laborers/craftsmen and for peasants. Or rather, they aren't, but the DM doesn't assume every peasant is churning out weapons/items/whatever.

Also, the PHB pretty clearly said how much the pieces were worth, in labor, as a point of reference for players. Even if RAW countermands that, and a peasant totally could make a gold piece a week if he applied himself, it's obvious that he doesn't.

He's not churning out items, that's the pay rate for labor for hire. Which is what unenterprising commoners will DO. It gets FAR better if he runs a shop crafting stuff.

And JUST WHAT do you think he spends his 12 skill points and two feats on if NONE of them are related to earning a living?

The PHB doesn't include any rules for hiring NPCs, nor does it include labor rates outside of the skill descriptions. Those skill descriptions ARE the PHB benchmarks for pay rates. The DMG lists prices for hirelings, but the PHB is a higher priority source than the DMG in case of conflict.


Yes, I agree. A commoner might have the potential to be a craftsman, but the economy can only support a small number of craftsmen. That commoner is 99% likely to be a farmer and he'll be using his craft skill to do his own repairs on his house and barn. His wife will use her craft skill to mend the family's clothes and prepare their meals (since gender equality is often achieved before gunpowder in fantasy campaigns, I'll grant that the husband might be the one caring for the home while the wife works in the fields).

Also, craftsmen probably have more overhead than a farmer; in a feudal society both have to pay taxes but the craftsman probably has to pay higher taxes for a shop in the town, purchase materials, pay guild dues, buy dragon insurance, buy nicer clothes so people will want to buy goods from him in the first place, and so on...

In which case he earns his living with "Profession: Farmer" and STILL gets 500 or so GP per year. And as for overhead, BUZZ, that doesn't apply to work for hire (which is what the payment on craft is FOR), and it also doesn't apply to professional earnings, which is what these give you, earnings are what's left AFTER job related overhead nor would it make sense for a profession to pay less than a work for hire craftsman.

If you want to change the rules feel free. But those rules are EXTREMELY clear that the average NPC can easily earn hundreds of GP per year and the prices make no sense at lower levels of income.

[BridgeCity]

If Roy was the sort who would kill Belkar, he could have done it a million times out in the open . . .

I agree Roy most likely wouldn't, but I think you misunderstood me somewhat. I'm not saying Roy would, or that I think he should. I'm saying that, from my point of view on the subject, Roy shouldn't feel bad about it if he were put in that situation. I'm saying I think Roy would be totally justified to kill Belkar in the arena, not that he is going to or that he would think to.

Sorry I wasn't more clear to begin with.

[Querzis]

Also, the PHB pretty clearly said how much the pieces were worth, in labor, as a point of reference for players. Even if RAW countermands that, and a peasant totally could make a gold piece a week if he applied himself, it's obvious that he doesn't.

Yeah so once again a normal belt cost 1g and a normal simple house with only 1-3 room cost 1000g. If you really think peasant usually dont make 1g a week, you're basically saying that it would take months for him to have enough money to dress himself and thats just if he doesnt eat, drink or buy anything during those months. And of course when he'll try to buy a house it will take 30 generations to pay it. Great logic.

We're talking about peasants, not about beggars. They arent that poor.

[Boogastreehouse]

In which case he earns his living with "Profession: Farmer" and STILL gets 500 or so GP per year. And as for overhead, BUZZ, that doesn't apply to work for hire (which is what the payment on craft is FOR), and it also doesn't apply to professional earnings, which is what these give you, earnings are what's left AFTER job related overhead nor would it make sense for a profession to pay less than a work for hire craftsman.

If you want to change the rules feel free. But those rules are EXTREMELY clear that the average NPC can easily earn hundreds of GP per year and the prices make no sense at lower levels of income.

from the DMG, page 139, under "Coinage"

"The economic system in the D&D game is based on the silver piece (sp). A common laborer earns 1 sp a day. That's just enough to allow his family to survive, assuming that this income is supplemented with food his family grows to eat, homemade clothing, and a reliance on self sufficiency for most tasks (personal grooming, health, animal tending and so on.)"

10sp=1gp, so after earning 1sp a day for a year, our common laborer would earn 365sp, or just over 36 gold pieces. For a year. Thirty-Six. According to the rule book.

Thirty-Six.

Gold.

Per year.

Just saying.

[Boogastreehouse]

Yeah so once again a normal belt cost 1g and a normal simple house with only 1-3 room cost 1000g. If you really think peasant usually dont make 1g a week, you're basically saying that it would take months for him to have enough money to dress himself and thats just if he doesnt eat, drink or buy anything during those months. And of course when he'll try to buy a house it will take 30 generations to pay it. Great logic.

We're talking about peasants, not about beggars. They arent that poor.

Peasants couldn't go around buying houses. They would build their own house with the help of their family and friends. Medieval peasants were very, very, very, very poor. The only difference between them and beggars was that peasants were given the privilege of living on the same piece of land generation after generation, so long as they worked that land for the local lord, who did own it. They were allowed to eat some of the food that they grew on that land so long as they grew enough to meet the demands of the lord. The male peasants were also often conscripted (drafted) to fight for the lord during the summer months, and there was often some sort of conflict going on.

This is how feudalism worked, and many D&D settings default to some form of feudalism.

[Yendor]

10sp=1gp, so after earning 1sp a day for a year, our common laborer would earn 52sp, or just over 5 gold pieces. For a year. Five. According to the rule book.

Only if our labourer works only one day a week.

[Boogastreehouse]

Only if our labourer works only one day a week.

Yeah, I caught that mistake and corrected it. Oops!

Makes my snark look a little more obnoxious, but I'm still more correct than him.

[Querzis]

Peasants couldn't go around buying houses. They would build their own house with the help of their family and friends. Medieval peasants were very, very, very, very poor. The only difference between them and beggars was that peasants were given the privilege of living on the same piece of land generation after generation, so long as they worked that land for the local lord, who did own it. They were allowed to eat some of the food that they grew on that land so long as they grew enough to meet the demands of the lord. The male peasants were also often conscripted (drafted) to fight for the lord during the summer months, and there was often some sort of conflict going on.

This is how feudalism worked, and many D&D settings default to some form of feudalism.

Firstly, if the SRD and the DMG contradict each other, the SRD win. Simple as that. Secondly, in real world feudalism there was no skill points, no LG paladin, no adventurers who are more powerful then the king, no magic, no elves, no monsters terrorizing the country and I could go on for a long time but I wont. The only thing real world feudalism got in common with D&D is lots of wars and kings, thats about it. You just have to open a history book next to a D&D book to see this. Now of course they borrow lots of things from the medieval period, mostly weapons, clothes and other stuff like that, but the mindset is definitly not something they borrowed from the medieval period.

Finally, if they can build their own house that means they got access to wood so just sell the wood instead of using it to build your house and you'll earn a lot more then 36g a year anyway!

[Boogastreehouse]

Firstly, if the SRD and the DMG contradict each other, the SRD win. Simple as that.

I don't believe that's the case. The DMG is the official rulebook of the game, and I was able to take my quote directly from it.

Meanwhile here in the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) I am unable as of yet to locate the subject of in-game economics. Therefore it appears as if the official rulebook is the most reasonable source.


Finally, if they can build their own house that means they got access to wood so just sell the wood instead of using it to build your house and you'll earn a lot more then 36g a year anyway!

Who is going to buy the wood from them?

Just because you and your family and friends are able to cut down a bunch of trees, doesn't mean that someone is automatically going to come along and buy the wood.

[Boogastreehouse]

No. Not even close by any reading of the rules.

Copper is the small change of the D&D world, even for commoners. A level 1 human commoner with all 10s or 11s for his abilities earns 8.5 GP per week based on taking either profession or craft, and that's WITHOUT investing 50 GP in masterwork tools for an extra GP per week and while cutting down his average return by taking 10.

That gives annual earnings of 442 GP for level 1 commoners with the astonishing optimization of spending 4 of their 12 skill points and one of their 2 feats on ANY profession or craft skill.

If he then spends 50 GP on a set of masterwork tools his annual return goes up to 494 GP.

When he reaches middle age and one of Int or Wis hits 12 points his annual income reaches 520 GP.

If our commoner fails life forever and has abilities of 3 in EVERYTHING and no useful skills or feats, then he can STILL be told by his mommy that craft can be used untrained (quite clear in the rules) and that craft clearly states it can be used to earn an income based on the check result (also no ambiguity in the rules), and he can STILL earn 3 GP/week by taking 10 on his -4 modifier craft skill.

If he's a homeless vagrant who can only be hired for unskilled day labor since he can't commit to a full week at once, THEN he's finally down to MAYBE being paid in copper. But he still earns enough that payment in silver even for one day would be perfectly possible. (And he either dies of exposure or starvation, but that's another matter.)

If he's a beggar with no skills and no willingness to work then he gets 1d10 copper per day (based on descriptions in the perform skill). We've finally reached the level of incomes measured in copper, but even this beggar will average 2.86 GP per year if he somehow avoids death by starvation.

Ahhh, I see...

Looking back at your earlier post (quoted above), I see that you appear to assume that every person will automatically find available work that exactly matches his ability. If he takes ranks in the skill: carpentry, he automatically finds carpentry work in his town. If his skills and attributes improve, then the people living in his town suddenly have more money to spend on carpenters.

This is like assuming that every person who wants to work as a fireman can get work as a fireman if they study how to do the job, and that there will always be more fireman jobs materializing as long as there are people learning how to be firemen. No one in this scenario ever has to give up their dream of being a fireman, and settle for flipping burgers at McDonalds.

[Marnath]

I'm surprised none of you are thinking of the fact that a lot of things have gold piece values so that they can conform to WBL. Just because a house costs 1000gold doesn't mean everyone buys them for that. Most people are going to build things themselves. If i chopped down some trees and secured them to each other with wooden spikes like they used to use for log cabins, i'll have a house worth 1000gold, but i didn't pay one bent copper for it. And then i go hunt in the forest with a bow i made by hand and kill animals/gather edible plants. I didn't buy that food, but if i collect more than i can use i can sure sell it. Look at that, self sufficiency AND i made a profit with nothing invested but time and labor.

[the_tick_rules]

Could that guard hear them when he was paralyzed?

[Marnath]

Could that guard hear them when he was paralyzed?


Considering Haley says they should continue talking in private, yeah i would guess he heard them.

[factotum]

I haven't gone backward in the forums, but has any one consider that after the Order of the Scribble broke up that Girard might have joined another adventuring party...say, I don't know, Tarquin and Malack?

Why would Girard do that? He was (and still is, if he's still alive) an epic level adventurer--why would he go around with a pair of lowbies like Tarquin and Malack? Not to mention that Girard would already have been middle-aged by the time Tarquin was even born...

[Dancing_Fox]

The only faster means of travel the Order currently has is Wind Walk. Wind Walk is Durkon's spell, and we know that Durkon arrives back at his homeland dead--so for them to use Wind Walk to travel to the final gate, we'd have to assume Durkon drops dead of a heart attack or something just before they cross the border into dwarven territory!

Not really wishing to raise a dead horse to be rekilled for extra flogging, but . . .

there were some arguing that Durkon only "finally" returns to his homeland "posthumously" meaning that he could return there alive and leave as many times as he liked, so long as he finally ended up being shipped back "dead as a doornail."

Therefore Wind Walk is still conceivably viable. Or scrolls. Or A Wizard With Teleport.

Notwithstanding as other posters have said that it may not actually be in the same country, therefore no problem to overcome.


How'd the Orangutan get so dirty? And who's familiar is it?

Uhhhh . . . from "The Golden Compass Parody Crossover?" :smallwink:

[BridgeCity]

. . . don't forget the reason he was exiled from Dwarven lands in the first place--namely, the prophecy that Durkon will bring death and destruction with him when he returns home!

That has always struck me as an odd thing to do for the dwarfs. I mean, if there is a prophecy that a dude will bring destruction when he comes back, wouldn't it be smarter to not ever let him leave? Instead, they push him out into the world and just trust that he will not return unless they tell him to . . . not a very smart plan. You can go on and on about dwarf honor and all that, but the fact remains no matter how trustworthy and honorable Durkon is, it would be safer for him to never leave so he could never return.

[hamishspence]

They actually bring this up- figuring that if they lock him up, he will escape, and that it's safer to rely on dwarven honor.

[BridgeCity]

They actually bring this up- figuring that if they lock him up, he will escape, and that it's safer to rely on dwarven honor.

If they are relying on dwarf honor and trusting him to stay away with no real reason, then why not tell Durkon about the prediction and trust him to not leave? It seems to me like he would do it if there was even a possibilty he would endanger the entire dwarf lands.

[factotum]

The High Priest misinterpreted the meaning of "home", I think. He thought it meant when Durkon next returned to his home (e.g. his house or whatever he was living in), not his homeland (e.g. the entire Dwarven lands).

[BridgeCity]

The High Priest misinterpreted the meaning of "home", I think. He thought it meant when Durkon next returned to his home (e.g. his house or whatever he was living in), not his homeland (e.g. the entire Dwarven lands).

That doesn't change the fact that it would have been much, much safer and smarter to just explain the situation to him and trust his honor that way, whichever interpretation the priest believed. If the priest did believe it was Durkons 'home' it is clear they got to him before he went back to it, as they threw him out, so they could just have talked to him then and stopped him from ever returning to his house.

I know that there is the 'it's a story about characters getting into trouble, if they did the right thing all the time it wouldn't be interesting to read' line of reasoning, and I agree with it, I just feel this issue could have been dealt with in a more believable way that still kept the story line the way it is.

[Terbovus]

ooo, I liked this one.

I can't decide though whether there will be an awesome gladiator scene (because, obviously, it would be awesome, and it provides lots of tropes to subvert) or whether there won't be a gladiator scene because they are such tropey settings, as outlined previously.

I'm tending towards the latter former. Tarquin will go for it because its entertaining, and Elan won't mind because its good storytelling and a required part of a desert adventure. :smalltongue:

[Terbovus]

I've already got a super good scenario for Durkon's homecoming.

Durkon tragically dies saving everyone, and then when they bring his coffin back to his homeland they knock over and break a vase (quite possibly the One Ming) and drop the metal coffin on a bug to terminal effect. Death and destruction, as foretold...

:smallamused:

[Icedaemon]

I think it would have been easier to request Tarquin to free Roy. It's an LE empire. Connections can do lots of things.

I am also in this camp. I understand Haley having 'bust them out' as her first reaction. I can understand Elan not taking the time to think, because if he did, he would surely go for trusting his dear old dad. However, a sensible dwarf not seeing the worth of family bonds in this instance? Unlikely.

[BridgeCity]

. . . I'm tending towards the latter. Tarquin will go for it because its entertaining, and Elan won't mind because its good storytelling and a required part of a desert adventure. :smalltongue:

Do you actually mean the former? Because I can't see skipping a fight being interesting to Tarquin. Not trying to be rude here if thats how it sounds.

Also, I like your Durkon prediction.

[Terbovus]

Do you actually mean the former? Because I can't see skipping a fight being interesting to Tarquin. Not trying to be rude here if thats how it sounds.

Also, I like your Durkon prediction.

Oops. Of course I did. I blame the windwalk-lag. :smallfrown: