Magic: the Gathering VII: Thopter? I barely knew 'er! [Archive]

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Copacetic

2010-08-02, 06:28 PM

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png
Yet another Magic thread by me, Shas'aia Toriia! 'Cause I'm sure you weren't sick of looking at me yet!
All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

It's the 7th official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander, whatever you can think of.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We're pretty casual players around here anyway. (Except, you know, those of us who play in tourneys.)

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Just, you know, tell me. Definitely multiple times because I will forget.
The Deck Gallery:

Shas'aia Toriia's RDW Flamekin
Creatures
4x Nova Chaser (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140239)
4x Incandescent Soulstoke (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139730)
4x Smokebraider (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139465)
4x Flamekin Harbinger (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139463)
4x Flamekin Bladewhirl (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140343)
4x Vengeful Firebrand (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153153)
2x Changeling Berserker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=145804)
2x Brighthearth Banneret (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152651)
2x Sootstoke Kindler (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153989)
1x Stigma Lasher (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153049)

Other Spells
4x Lash Out (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=145987)
4x Flame Javelin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189220)
2x Soul's Fire (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174951)

Land
17x Mountain (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190585)
2x Ghitu Encampment (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106564)

That deck focuses on getting the kill as fast as possible, and is an extremely simple deck to play - I gave it to my mom, and she managed to beat me with it, twice out of three games. The other one was multiplayer, and did manage to take down somebody else before I did the same to her.
It has a very good record, wins most games it plays and consistenly trounces my Faerie deck.

Start the game off by playing Flamekin Harbinger to tutor up either Nova Chaser or the Soulstoke, depending on what you need more. Then play Smokebraider for some cheap mana. Play Incandescent Soulstoke turn three, and up to 3 Nova Chasers through the Soulstoke's ability turn 4 for the win. :smallbiggrin:
If they somehow survive this, just champion Flamekin Harbinger, fling your Nova Chasers and Changeling Berserkers at the opponent. When they do, search up a new one and do it again! Vengeful Firebrand is great end game. He'll likely have haste from one of the many warriors in the deck, and his firebreathing effect quickly escalates from Smokebraider's ability.

Conspiring Ultimatums, a truly magical, non-budget deck by tgva88892 Maelstrom Archangel (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185136)
3 Wort, the Raidmother (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147379)
4 Birds of Paradise (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129906)
4 Sprouting Thrinax (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174863)

1 Cruel Ultimatum (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175079)
1 Violent Ultimatum (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175135)
1 Conflux (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179437)
1 Spitting Image (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=154261)
1 Din of the Fireherd (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146733)
4 Naya Charm (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=137905)
4 Fertile Ground (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139502)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140205)
2 Lavalanche (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180612)
4 Maelstrom Pulse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180613)
1 Cloven Casting (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189653)
2 Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142301)

4 Vivid Crag (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141882)
4 Vivid Grove (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141879)
4 Reflecting Pool (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152158)
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
5 Forest

Gameplay:
When playing this deck, it's important to survive the early game. Once you get into the late game, any deck without an abundance of counterspells will suddenly be faced with an onslaught of powerful spells. Between the 5 game-winners, one being a repeatable spell, the 4 Naya Charms, and the 3 Primal Commands and 4 Cone of Flames to control the game a bit, this deck should have no problem pushing through a late-game backbreaker. Maelstrom Archangel is there to help you push through some spells; after all, it's not very likely you'll be able to play two Ultimatums in one turn, is it?

In terms of your early game, the key to surviving is to play Sprouting Thrinax, Naya Charm, and Cone of Flame as much as possible to slow down your foe. In addition, don't be afraid to take a bit of damage; you can afford to go down to 10 or even 5 before you're really in dire straits. The Primal Commands can gain you some important life early on, and it's not uncommon to be casting Maelstrom Archangel on turn 5 if it's in your opener, so the Angel can act as a last-ditch blocker if need be. Garruk's Beast tokens are also extremely helpful in surviving to your big guns, and Garruk himself provides you some acceleration that can get you there faster.

Naya Charm is truly your ace in the hole. Acting as Regrowth, Lash Out, and a fourth of Cryptic Command is truly something amazing. However, don't be afraid to spend Naya Charm early on. If you get Wort up and running, you can recycle your Naya Charms with your other cards extremely easily.

Remember, the objective with this deck is to conspire ridiculous spells for ridiculous fun. If you're about to lose, don't be afraid to Conspire Conflux and show off your deck in a glorious fashion. It's all about making big explosions, after all!

Mirrinus' "Norg'Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.

Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White ControlDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.

Mirrinus' Mirror Sheen Combo
Format: Extended, preferably for 2HG

Creatures
4 Drift of Phantasms (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Drift%20of%20Phantasms)
4 Plumeveil (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Plumeveil)

Enchantments
3 Mirror Sheen (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mirror%20Sheen)

Instants
3 Swerve (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Swerve)
4 Hinder (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Hinder)
4 Electrolyze (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Electrolyze)
1 Oona's Grace (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=oona's%20grace)

Sorceries
4 Compulsive Research (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Compulsive%20Research)
3 Conflagrate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Conflagrate)
2 Cone of Flame (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cone%20of%20Flame)
1 Walk the Aeons (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Walk%20the%20Aeons)

Artifacts
4 Izzet Signet (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=izzet%20signet)

Lands
4 Vivid Creek (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Vivid%20Creek)
4 Vivid Crag (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Vivid%20Crag)
4 Izzet Boilerworks (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Izzet%20Boilerworks)
1 Mountain
10 Islands

So, what does this deck do? At its core, this deck is made to abuse Mirror Sheen with various effects that can target me. Beneficial effects like Compulsive Research, Oona's Grace, and Walk the Aeons can be spread to both myself and my teammate, especially in MTGO 2HG, where turns are taken separately. Meanwhile, burn spells like Electrolyze, Cone of Flame, and Conflagrate can spread their damage to point just 1 damage at me, allowing me to copy them as well.

My plan is to lay down some beefy blockers and control the board with versatile burn while building up mana and drawing cards for both me and my partner. Lots of card drawing spells plus Drift of Phantasms allows me to quickly find Mirror Sheen, while Hinder (my counterspell of choice in extended) and Swerve protect me and my flagship enchantment. With Mirror Sheen on the board, most of my spells become super-charged. Eventually, I will seek to win the game with a huge, crazy turn. Most commonly, I'll flashback Conflagrate for just 2 mana, discarding my hand of 7-8 cards and targetting myself with just 1 point of its damage, then pump all of my mana into copying that huge Conflagrate. With 8 mana available and 7 cards in hand, that's 20 damage divided as I choose, perfect for eliminating all blockers for my partner's alpha strike, or just sending it all to the dome. Or I can copy Walk the Aeons (and buy it back) before this too. Either way, my other goal is to supercharge my partner's deck, which I hope will make the game very fun for both of us. Most players appreciate being given extra cards and turns, right?

I still have no idea what I would do for the sideboard, as that doesn't usually come up for 2HG, but it might matter if I take the deck out for a spin in 1-on-1 duels, where it'd play more like a combo deck with heavy control elements. I'm also not sure about a few individual choices. Should I run cheaper burn that can't synergize well with Mirror Sheen? Are more board sweepers necessary? Do I have enough defense to avoid being run over in the early game? Is my mana base stable enough to support UUU for Plumeveil and RR in Cone of Flame and Conflagrate, or should I cut the Cone of Flames? Is Cone of Flames even worth 5 mana? Is Swerve any good at all? (It can counter counterspells by changing their target!)

Mirrinus' Game of Life
Format: Extended, both duels and FFA

Creatures
4 Leonin Squire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=72722)
4 Trinket Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50163)
1 Auriok Salvagers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51166)
2 Magus of the Disk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126298)
3 Mulldrifter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189217)
3 Shriekmaw (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146175)
3 Twilight Shepherd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152060)

Artifacts
4 Chromatic Star (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=135279)
1 Voyager Staff (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88991)
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48214)
1 Æther Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48113)
1 Wayfarer's Bauble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51110)
1 Executioner's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174895)
1 Dispeller's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174830)

Instants
4 Momentary Blink (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109733)
3 Makeshift Mannequin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139670)

Lands
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
4 Flagstones of Trokair (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116733)
1 Mistveil Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142014)
1 Azorious Chancery
1 Orzhov Basilica
7 Plains
3 Island
2 Swamp

This deck is built around my personal favorite creature, Twilight Shepherd. It started out as a simple WUB blink deck, but then morphed into a toolbox-style deck revolving around 1-mana artifacts. Nearly every single card syngergizes with Twilight Shepherd. Any of the sacrificed artifacts can be returned to my hand with the angel's ability, evoke becomes absurd when the angel activates, CIP creatures play nicely with her, and wiping the board with Magus of the Disk tends to be rather one-sided when all my stuff comes back to me, including the Magus himself! But the star of the deck is Voyager Staff combined with Twilight Shepherd, which basically lets me pay 3 mana each turn to ensure that any permanent that goes to my graveyard that turn gets returned to my hand. That includes lands like Terramorphic Expanse and Flagstones of Trokair as well (hence the high number of basic lands to fetch). Mannequin and Momentary Blink both ensure that my angel is never rid of permanently, and Trinket Mage tutors for the Staff right when I need it, or for any other silver bullet artifact. The sideboard includes stuff like Relic of Progenitus, to hose even more strategies. Lack of artifact lands is due to anti-synergy with the Magus. It's a fun deck with an insane amount of resiliance, as that angel is almost impossible to ever get rid of permanently, thanks to the massive amount of blink and recursion in the deck.

Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).

Graymare's Ella Enchanted
Creatures:
Dowsing Shaman (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88968) X2
Gatherer of Graces (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96877) X4
Gruul Guildmage (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96837) X1
Flaring Flame-kin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=111247) X4
Slith Firewalker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189222) X1
Spikeshot Goblin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46103) X1
Thran Golem (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83202) X1
Yavimaya Enchantress (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130515) X4
Verduran Enchantress (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83320) X1

Enchantments:
Ancestral Mask (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19634) X2
Beastmaster's Magemark (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107689) X4
Crown of Flames (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23074) X1
Exoskeletal Armor (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29885) X1
Fencer's Magemark (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29885) X4
Fists of Ironwood (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83672) X1
Lightning Talons (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176446) X2
Treetop Bracers (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129777) X1
Uncontrollable Anger (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=134756) X1
Web (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83994) X1

Instants:
Grab the Reins (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=49435) X1
Naturalize (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174890) X2
Vitalize (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=14667) X1

Land:
Forest X10
Mountain X10
Skarrg, the Rage Pits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6088350) X2

Oh Lawd, my now seasoned Magic: The Gathering (tm) mind cries when it sees all of these X1's! As some people can guess, this isn't the most... stable of decks.

But, boy howdy, is it fun to play! The creatures it can manufacturer are always loaded with power. This is mostly from all of the synergy. My enchanted creatures make other enchanted creatures more powerful (and in the case of magemarks, give them extra abilities!).

Plus, it's fairly fast. Personal clicks can attest to its ability of bringing out big baddies in a relatively short amount of time.

However, I could always do with making it faster. In fact, this deck is in dire need of optimization, so I will acquiesce to your greater abilities playground if you would deign to help me. :smalltongue:

SoD's Naya DeckLittle Creatures:
Bloodbraid Elf (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/50.html)x1
Druid of the Anima (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/128.html)x2
Naya Hushblade (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/141.html)x3
Stun Sniper (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/100.html)x4
Wild Nacatl (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/152.html)x4 (1 foil)
Big creatures;
Hamletback Goliath (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/173.html)x1
Mossbridge Troll (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/123.html)x1 (1 foil)
Mycoid Shepherd (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/73.html)x1
Mycoloth (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/140.html)x3
Spearbreaker Behemoth (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/150.html)x1
Spellbreaker Behemoth (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/60.html)x
Vigor (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/240.html)x2
Wooly Thoctar (http://magiccards.info/card.php?card=Woolly%20Thoctar)x4
Artifacts:
Behemoth Sledge (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/65.html)x1
Mage Slayer (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/57.html)x2
Enchantements:
Happy Song (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/121.html)x1
Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/20.html)x1
Instants;
Path to Exile (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/15.html)x2
Volcanic Fallout (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/74.html)x1
Sorcer...Sorcery's? Sorceries? Sorceri? Sorceri, yeah. That sounds good. Sorceri:
None.
Planeswalkers:
Ajani Vengeant (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/154.html)x1
Lands:
Fire-Lit Thicket (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/271.html)x1
Forestx4
Jungle Shrine (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/226.html)x4
Mountainx4 (2 foil)
Naya Panorama (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/227.html)x1
Plainsx3
Wooded Bastion (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/281.html)x1
Vivid Crag (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/275.html)x2
Vivid Grove (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/277.html)x1

Fun Combinations; Double Vigor. Need I say more? Happy Song (Mayael's Aria) (at begining of upkeep, stuff, then win the game if you control creature with power 20 or greater) combined with Mossbridge Troll (tap a bunch of creatures, Mossbridge Troll gets +20/+20 til end of turn.
Mycoloth.
Another Mycoloth.
Spellbreaker Behemoth's to stop your big things from getting countered.
Spearbreaker Behemoth to stop them getting killed.
Vigor to make them tougher.
Hamletback Goliath+Mycoloth. I spawn more Saprolings. My Hamletback gets bigger.

I'm trying to work out what to remove for a Windbrisk Raptor (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/26.html) and a Rage Reflection (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/104.html). Any suggestions?
And secondly; Foily Noble Hierach.

Narkis' Dastardly Devour Deck[/COLOR]Creatures

4 X Tukatongue Thallid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184995)
4 X Sprouting Thrinax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174863)
2 X Hissing Iguanar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174873)
2 X Thorn-Thrash Viashino (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175064)
4 X Mycoloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174975)
2 X Predator Dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174968)

Other Spells

4 X Bone Splinters (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174967)
4 X Fate Transfer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147411)
4 X Dragon Fodder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174936)
2 X Soul's Fire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174951)
4 X Morbid Bloom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179614)

Lands

4 X Savage Lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174877)
2 X Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640)
2 X Firewild Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188974)
6 X Forest
6 X Mountain
4 X Swamp

Flame Master Axel's RBWLightning Reaver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180617) x2
Demigod of Revenge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153972) x2
Hellspark Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174799) x3
Hell's Thunder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176455) x2
Termiante (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176449) x3
Blightning (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174917) x4
Tidehollow Sculler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175054) x2
Wall of Reverence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189874) x2
Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179235) x3
Ajani Vengeant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174852)
Thought Hemorrhage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180596) x2
Bitminous Blast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185057)
Cerodon Yearling (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180604) x2
Anathemancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179538) x2
Mogg Fanatic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=157925) x2
Sewn-Eye Drake (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179594)
Demonspine Whip (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180311)
Intimidation Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179568)
Slave of Bolas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188971)
Volcanic Fallout (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180274)
Pyroclasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129801)
Guttural Respone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158773)

Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640)
Savage Lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174877) x2
Jungle Shrine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175060) x2
Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142301) x2
Fetid Heath (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153446)
Battlefield Forge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129479)
Swamp x4
Mountain x4
Plains x3

Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:

MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that people who don't understand your brilliance can bask in its true glory.
Also, it should be noted that this list was maintained by tgva and Johnny Blade before Shas. He doesn't think he could have done it on his own. Except, ya' know, for the part where he did.

Copacetic

2010-08-02, 06:29 PM

Past topics since the first post takes up too much space:
Magic: the Gathering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84019)
Magic: the Gathering II - Planeswalkers in the Playground - (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111185)
Magic: the Gathering III - These Planes Are Made For Walkin' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119615)
Magic: the Gathering IV: "Burn, Mana, Burn" as they used to say (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125812)
Magic: the Gathering V: Ophidians on a Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7739504#post7739504)
Magic: the Gathering VI: This Thread Dies to Removal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149503)

List of MtG-related websites put together by Johnny Blades and others:
The official site. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/) From here you can reach:
The page for Magic Online (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx), if you want to give it a try. Note that, while you have to pay/trade for cards, there are bots who give them away for free. I don't have any experience with this, but there are people posting in this thread that do.
The DCI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/welcome), for organized play.
Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx), WotC's card search.

magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/), another place to waste lots of time browsing through cards. It doesn't have the user ratings and comments of Gatherer, but lists the prices of several online vendors and, surprisingly, has more card images. The interface is also better in my opinion.

MTGSalvation (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/). That place has a lot of stuff, including a wiki, a huge forum, and many articles of varying quality. They also spoil all the cards of the next set well in advance, so this is where we'll usually get future cards from.

StarCityGames (http://www.starcitygames.com/) - they make you pay for much of their newer content, but what you can get for free is certainly good enough.

Elder Dragon Highlander (http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php), the official page. Very...Spartan design, but that means functionality. Always up to date and it has a forum about this popular variant multiplayer format as well.

Le Bestiaire (http://draft.bestiaire.org/), an online draft simulator. It gives you some pretty odd ratings sometimes, but at least there is actual feedback.

Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com/), a program for...a lot of things, including collection management and online play. Supports more TCGs than just Magic. There's a freeware version available.

Deckcheck (http://www.deckcheck.net/), where you can see which decks have tournament success. The decks are essentially named by the people who play them, and if you're looking for, say, Legacy decks, you'll soon find out that not all tournaments are really at Pro Tour level, but this is still an invaluable site for anyone who wants to keep up with the tournament scene.

Magic: the Gathering Source Forums (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/), which is great for people looking into legacy.

The Mana Drain (http://www.themanadrain.com/), more forums, this time for people looking into Vintage.

Tapped Out (http://www.tappedout.net/), a deck building and critique community. Build any number of decks and put them up for review/critique/comment/display. Or, keep them private. They also have pretty graphic representations of your mana curve, colour costs and colour generation.

Also, for those who don't get the title, Thopter Foundry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183017) can be abused (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126215)
for fun and profit.

Also, please let me know if you want something in the first post added, edited or removed.

memnarch

2010-08-02, 06:33 PM

I wanted a good budget, artifact deck, so I build one around thopters and that thing. :smallcool:

Penguinizer

2010-08-02, 06:48 PM

A casual thopter+sword deck shouldn't set you back too much. Both are recent commons/uncommons, so they're not gonna be too expensive.

For a simple control deck, you could have something like this. I'm working with cards in the new Extended that aren't too expensive.

The combo:
3x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry

Tutors:
2x Fabricate
2x Tezzeret (if you have them)

Control:
4x Mana Leak
4x Rune Snag
3x Broken Ambitions
3x Essence Scatter

Removal:
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Brittle Effigy

Card draw:
4x Ponder/Preordain
4x See Beyond

Artifact mana:
4x Mind Stone

Lands:
4x Arcane Sanctum
4x Terramorphic Expanse
2x Evolving Wilds
3x Plains
5x Island
3x Swamp

You need to cut a few cards, but that's sort of just to give you the idea.

CaCO3

2010-08-02, 06:53 PM

OH! THAT THOPTER...

I was wondering.

I believe Sword of the Meek is banned in Extended at the moment. No?

memnarch

2010-08-02, 07:09 PM

I've already built the deck. And it's for fun, so I put stuff like Oblivion Ring, Journey to Nowhere, Æther spellbomb, and Glassdust Hulk in. :smallbiggrin:

Copacetic

2010-08-02, 07:15 PM

I've already built the deck. And it's for fun, so I put stuff like Oblivion Ring, Journey to Nowhere, Æther spellbomb, and Glassdust Hulk in. :smallbiggrin:

A light bulb just went off in my head. Dear lord that's not right. Okay, to be fair, most decks involving Glassdust Hulk are kick-puppies-in-face level mean. See also, Time Sieve and Open the Vaults.

memnarch

2010-08-02, 07:25 PM

Muddle the mixture was a great find as well.

Shas aia Toriia

2010-08-02, 09:17 PM

Just to let you know, you're missing the link to the 6th thread in the first post. Also, you're missing the Magic: the Gathering VII part too.
Also also, I like the word also.

Copacetic

2010-08-02, 09:57 PM

Just to let you know, you're missing the link to the 6th thread in the first post. Also, you're missing the Magic: the Gathering VII part too.
Also also, I like the word also.

Hah! Only two things wrong? I'm a bloody genius. :smallbiggrin:

Will fix now.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-02, 10:04 PM

Thopter Foundry is one of those "oh hey maybe we should pay attention to Extended" moments Wizards have been getting with recent design. Hexmage is another.

Penguinizer

2010-08-02, 10:13 PM

It's also starting to see play in Legacy. It's not as dominating there though. People just have the resources to deal with this stuff better. I still think that the Countertop Thopters deck with Jace 2.0 is pretty scary stuff.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-02, 11:14 PM

Well I meant in a "we can't design for non-standard formats" kinda of way.

Also, Mirrodin Besieged! That name came out of nowhere. But hopefully it stops some of the really, really stupid speculation that's been going on about this block.

memnarch

2010-08-02, 11:56 PM

Even though it's not going to happen, I'd be thrilled if I was reprinted/referenced. :smallwink:

Suedars

2010-08-03, 02:46 PM

It depends on how much of a reference you want. I'd say at least a flavor text nod or two is almost certain.

Penguinizer

2010-08-03, 03:44 PM

Has anyone here seen the supposed abilities for Sword of Body and Mind? I have already forgotten what they were. I just remember beign disappointed. Does anyone know if there'll be more swords with pro-green. Pro-green equipment is very handy in Legacy.

IthilanorStPete

2010-08-03, 03:47 PM

Foeofthelance

2010-08-03, 04:24 PM

Went to pickup Starcraft 2 at Target today, saw a 2011 fat pack and decided to spoil myself.

Best picks were Vengeance Archon, Foil Time Reversal, and Ajani Goldmane. Time Reversal was in the same pack as the Sword which gives +2/+0 and a whole host of abilities. All in all, I am happy. :)

Now I just need more of the Ajani cards for my white deck. I've got one of the enchantments and one of the creatures, wish I had the full play set...

Narkis

2010-08-03, 05:20 PM

+2/+2, pro green, pro blue, makes a 2/2 bear an dmills for 10 when hitting a player.

The 2/2 it makes is a wolf and not a bear. But that's it, otherwise. I was disappointed too.

Copacetic

2010-08-03, 05:22 PM

Penguinizer

2010-08-03, 05:52 PM

That's really disappointing. I was hoping that the blue part would draw a card at the very least. I hope that there's at least one more with pro-green that doesn't suck.

MountainKing

2010-08-03, 10:42 PM

Why would they do that again? Sword of Fire and Ice already does that; it'd make half the equipment boring and already done. :smallconfused:

Also, I don't care how sad it is, I had a geekgasm when I saw that my thread title got picked. :smallbiggrin: I almost squee'd. Almost.

Penguinizer

2010-08-04, 07:17 AM

JerryMcJerrison

2010-08-04, 08:11 AM

I recently put together a deck centered around Raid Bombardment. Its been working pretty smoothly, and has gone toe-to-toe with several of my friends' Legacy decks, despite being cobbled together from almost all Zendikar stuff that was lying about when I had the idea. I've been wanting to make a standard deck to go to FNM with anyways, so I figured I'd get the internet's opinion on it.

Creatures:
Goblin Arsonist x2
Goblin Bushwhacker x1
Kiln Fiend x4
Cunning Sparkmage x4
Chandra's Spitfire x4
Magmaw x2

Artifacts
Explorer's Scope x2

Instants
Unstable Footing x2
Dragon Fodder x3
Spawning Breath x4

Sorceries
Fireball x2
Brood Birthing x4
Roiling Terrain x2

Enchantments
Raid Bombardment x4

Lands
Mountain x20

Plan A is to get Chandra's Spitfire and Raid Bombardment to hang out together. Each weenie that attacks with Spitfire boosts it by +3/+0, not to mention that it boosts itself because its power was 1 when it attacked.
So if 4 Spawn and Spitfire attack with just one Raid out, that's potentially 21 damage right there.

Unfortunately, sometimes you just can't seem to draw both. I don't have much of a solution for not drawing Spitfire, but there's plenty of things to stand in for the Raids: Cunning Sparkmages and Spawning Breath early on, and Magmaw later.

Kiln Fiend Usually gets enough food to be a decent threat. The Spawn can help pay for bigger fireballs or for Magmaw, either to play him or as fodder for his fireworks. Unstable Footing takes care of Fog and Fog-likes (with a nice kicker to boot!). Explorer's Scope was just thrown in there for lack of and mana acceleration on hand, but usually works pretty well.

Any card suggestions/tips/etc? If there's something not in standard that would rock really hard, lemme know, and I'll just use it against my friends when they pull out their crazy infinite combo decks. Thanks!

Shas aia Toriia

2010-08-04, 09:31 AM

If they did it, it would have been a much better card. Milling 10 does nothing in the long run. It's at most a 5 turn clock. Except Even a 1/1 would have done enough damage and pumped out enough tokens in the time to have won.

The only reason I'd play is the pro-green. Too bad the abilities tacked onto it were rather disappointing.

I'd say this post sums up my feelings on the matter quite well. For blue they could have had some bouncing or something else that actually effects the game state.

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 10:16 AM

Lady Tialait

2010-08-04, 11:10 AM

I'm a gitty little girl today. I woke up and my husband wanted to play a game of magic before he went to work. And I played Hellkite Charger and got a bear Umbra on it with 7 lands in play....hehe It felt GREAT!

Penguinizer

2010-08-04, 12:54 PM

I disagree on the thoughts concerning the new Sword; milling for 10 is not a useless option. That is vicious. Losing your next ten draws hurts; I can't count the number of games I've lost over the years because even the smallest amount of mill tanked a crucial card before I could use it.

Is it "card advantage"? I'd say hell YES. I don't care if by definition it's not, because your library doesn't count as being available. That's a load of hooey to me. That's ten cards that just got blown away, and if you don't happen to have a Cane effect handy, that's it, they're just about gone. Oh, turns out you needed two of those ten cards really badly? Oh well, that's just too bad. For you.

I think I'd run it with Hellkite Charger, but that's just mean. :smallbiggrin:

Milling, in essence, is a bad burn spell that can not target creatures. It takes more time to kill the enemy than pure damage, and has no effect on the board position. In several cases, it has the distinct option of actually making the situation worse. The "Card Advantage" you refer to does not exist here. Milling 10 actually benefits your opponent more often than you might think. Your opponent's Knight of the Reliquaries/Goyfs/whatnot will be rather happy when you mill another land or two or the type they were missing. In essence, no benefit compared to the actual possibility of being worse off. If you were not forced to mill, I'd be happier.

Bouncing a creature on the other hand might end up being too strong. Take for example a Sword of Fire and Ice vs. the most common tribal opponents. If you manage to keep them off of two lords. You essentially can freely kill a creature every turn. The tempo advantage granted by bouncing would be really strong. I personally think that a scrying or top effect might not be too overpowering.

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 01:25 PM

Penguinizer

2010-08-04, 01:35 PM

The thing is. Legacy has precisely 3 minor player decks that run sweepers. Those are The Mighty Quinn, Landstill decks playing white, or The Gate which plays Nevinnyral's Disk. None of these are metagame staples, and the first 2 are becoming increasingly rare. The closest thing to a commonly played Sweeper is Devastating Dreams. Which is played in a deck that actively benefits from milling (Aggro-Loam).

Milling a 5th is at most likely to hit one of their 4-ofs. This is hardly devastating. The only deck that's hurt by losing a singleton and has no way (to easily) recur it is Combo. Against which an equipment that is functional at the earliest by turn 4 is just too slow.

Decks that benefit from being milled:
Dredge
Reanimator
Lands.dec / Aggro-loam / Loam based decks in general
New Horizons / Anything with Knight of the Reliquary and/or Terravore

Decks that get minor benefits:
Zoo / anything with Goyf/Grim Lavamancer
Enchantress, you pretty much give them 4 free targets for Replenish.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-04, 01:35 PM

That is a positively absurd excuse. "Half" the game is ways to kill creatures; I refuse to accept that "carving a giant chunk out of their deck and probably stripping them of the tools they need to destroy you" is defeated by the idea that there are creatures who play off of cards being in the graveyard. ESPECIALLY in (if I'm not mistaken) your primary format, which if I recall, is Legacy, where there are so many sweepers now that you can't *breathe* without looking at one. :smallannoyed:

Except that no one plays with them. There are far better things you need to be doing with your time other than play board sweepers.

Sure, you could mill them 10 good cards, or you could also mill them past all the cards that are dead in this game and they're 11th card is the card they need to win the game.

I'm not saying that it's bad, just that it isn't all that good. But it's an extra effect, and protection from green and tokens is a good enough reason to run the sword.

Wait it's not optional? Oh man, never mind then.

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 01:56 PM

Saying that nobody plays those things in competitive play is just as absurd as saying that creatures are the reason the effect is bad. The game isn't *just* competitive level play. :smallannoyed: While we're at it, there are also plenty of things that strip out their graveyard... if you're *that* worried about it. Which, if your reason for the ability being bad is "Waaaah Tarmagoyf!", then why aren't you stripping graveyards anyway? :smallmad:

Furthermore, so *what* if Tarmagoyf and Knight of the Reliquary get bigger? They're both *green* creatures. Your solution to those, bare minimum, is right on the Sword.

While we're at it, I still can't fathom how a card that was released alongside Extirpate is such a big freaking deal. :smallannoyed: Extirpate isn't even expensive in terms of money cost, in a format that's paying what? Twenty bucks a land? If not more?

*grumbles...*

The Extinguisher

2010-08-04, 02:12 PM

Legacy is a format with an immense card pool, and as such you have access to power combinations of cards. You shouldn't be playing a card unless it's absolutely the best card you can use at that point. Running maindeck graveyard hate just isn't useful, and you shouldn't run sub-par builds to give a single card a little more functionality.

Penguinizer

2010-08-04, 02:15 PM

The thing with Knight of the Reliquary and Goyf being green is the fact that if you actually want to use the sword. You are more often than not going to have to tap said creature. I only play 4 vigilance creatures in my deck, the odds of having them every time are rather small.

I am not stripping graveyards constantly because that'd mean I'd have to maindeck graveyard hate. The only graveyard hate I main is Jötun Grunt. Which is kind of counterproductive with milling. The rest of the gravehate in the sideboard is a single Tormod's Crypt and a single Wheel of the Sun and Moon as Enlightened Tutor targets. I am not going to be able to recur Tormod's Crypt to constantly keep the grave empty and Wheel of the Sun and Moon just makes the mill effect disappear.

The thing with Extirpate in turn is that it is not white. I do not have the capability to reliably splash black, nor would I splash black if I had the chance.

Overall. The mill effect feels tacked on for the casual crowd.

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 02:33 PM

So what you're telling me, basically, is that even though it's a perfectly legitimate solution to something that is supposedly a huge problem, it's just not worth running, even when Extirpate is in fact a remarkably powerful card, and isn't just a solution to Tarmagoyf. It strips away all kinds of problem cards. While we're at it, it's *one* black mana. Saying that you can't "reliably" make one black mana work? That blows my mind. Then, your final complaint is... it feels "tacked on for the casual crowd"?

It's a game! It didn't start out with tournament formats! The so-called "casual crowd" is the reason the game even continued to exist. They didn't sit down at a development board meeting and go "Hey, let's create a bunch of tournament rules for this game of ours." "But, sir? Nobody plays it yet." "So what, we don't care about casual players." "...but, sir... How are we supposed to make a game without casual players to actually play it first?" "You're fired."

Just... gah. That sentiment is one of the things that frustrates me the most about competitive players. All you seem to see are wins and losses and records, and that is just plain frustrating. I understand that, winning is kind of the point, but so is playing the game. :smallsigh:

Suedars

2010-08-04, 03:00 PM

So what you're telling me, basically, is that even though it's a perfectly legitimate solution to something that is supposedly a huge problem, it's just not worth running, even when Extirpate is in fact a remarkably powerful card, and isn't just a solution to Tarmagoyf. It strips away all kinds of problem cards. While we're at it, it's *one* black mana. Saying that you can't "reliably" make one black mana work? That blows my mind. Then, your final complaint is... it feels "tacked on for the casual crowd"?

It's not remarkably powerful. It gets rid of future threats only after you've already been hit with and dealt with the threat once. Of course, there's no guarantee that that they would have drawn another copy of that card anyway. In terms of disruption it's completely trumped by any sort of Duress effects. For most Legacy decks you need to neutralize their threat before it resolves, not after. With Legacy you have acces to 99.99% of cards ever printed. A card literally has to be just about the best card of its type to see play. Extirpate is not even close.

Unless of course you're playing it for graveyard disruption, in which case it's laughably bad. It hits one card once. If you're using it to hate Tarmogoyf, you'll maybe temporarily give it -1/-1. Good job. That was totally worth not playing some other card, wasn't it? And against Dredge, just removing one card from their graveyard isn't enough. Sure, nuking that Ichorid is nice, but they have other ways to win. A Crypt will be much more effective.

Bucky

2010-08-04, 03:39 PM

Is it "card advantage"? I'd say hell YES. I don't care if by definition it's not, because your library doesn't count as being available. That's a load of hooey to me. That's ten cards that just got blown away, and if you don't happen to have a Cane effect handy, that's it, they're just about gone. Oh, turns out you needed two of those ten cards really badly? Oh well, that's just too bad. For you.

5 reasons why it doesn't work that way:
The 11th card of their library
Flashback
Unearth
Recursion
Library Manipulation

Milling in a vacuum just means that both players have more information about the milled player's future draws. Milling a Flashback or Unearth card is card advantage for your opponent. Milling when they have a Gravedigger effect in hand gives them a selection advantage. Milling after a Ponder gets rid of a card or two they don't want but would draw otherwise.

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 03:47 PM

Rant:

It's... a... *creature*... :smallfurious: It doesn't even have Shroud or Regenerate!

This is absurd. I can't believe that the entire competitive side of a format is so completely wrapped up around how "powerful" a *creature* is that rather than just look at the problem objectively and deal with it, as a creature, the single weakest, easiest to deal with problem in the entire bloody game, people would rather scoff and say "Oh, no, you're the one being ridiculous, being able to solve the "problem" we're having, we'd rather tart it about as being the most horrendous problem we've ever faced!" :smallmad:

And as for Extirpate being "bad" because you have to be hit in the face with the problem card before you can use it? Equally ridiculous! Just like you said, use Duress effects. It is NOT difficult to get a card out of the hand and into the graveyard, and then just *what* are they supposed to do about it when you use a spell with Split Second to remove not only that card and every copy of that card from your hand, graveyard, and library?

And before you say it? Yes, I'm fully aware that Duress specifically says "Noncreature". Go ahead, tell me that Duress is the only card in bloody Legacy that lets you strip a card out of somebody's hand. Do it, please, I *beg* you.

While we're at it? For the same mana cost as a bloody Tarmagoyf, you can strip out a noncreature spell from the opponent's hand and then strip it out of the game entirely. Two. Bloody. Mana. "Oh but it's one more card, you silly fool!" And your point is... what? Hmmz, for two cards, I can strip that powerful card out of my opponent's deck before he even hits me in the face with it. Or, *gasp* he could hit me with it anyway, and then I'll strip it away. Now he can't do that terrible, devastating thing, ever again.

Honestly, I'd like to see what would happen if people would just start *dealing* with Tarmagoyf instead of constantly using it as an excuse. :smallannoyed:

/rant.

Whatever. I know what I'm packing if I ever decide to deal with competitive Legacy players in person. I am officially withdrawing from this particular aspect/topic of the thread.

arguskos

2010-08-04, 03:55 PM

Honestly, I'd like to see what would happen if people would just start *dealing* with Tarmagoyf instead of constantly using it as an excuse. :smallannoyed:
...dude you need to walk away for five minutes.

Tarmogoyf is not used as an excuse (Psychatog, ok, we might have a talk), but more as the baseline for one of the best creatures ever printed in a competitive sense. No, it is not hard to kill, any sort of RFG effect or auto-kill effect ends it instantly. However, in combat, it's a monster, easily able to tangle with anything it damn well wants and usually win.

Concerning Extirpate: I was playing actively when it was released, and everyone had the exact same response then you have now. AND THEN, we all played with it a bunch, and realized that it is so niche that it's not worth the hype. Extirpate has it's place, yes, but that place is one that can be done better by other cards, leaving it with a very specific niche (you need to RFG one card without any possible interruptions, which doesn't come up much). On the subject of Extirpate against Tarmogoyf, that's just a joke. You *might* give the 'goyf -1/-1, which is meh at best.

On the issue of mill: Mill is something that you either focus on entirely, or you don't bother with at all. The reason the new Sword is causing a stir is because it's not that useful a secondary condition. Now, in a mill deck that uses critters that swing to mill (Belltower Sphinx, the kraken from Alara Reborn, etc), it's gonna be good, since it makes your primary plan (beat with guys and mill at the same time for a good double-threat) better. In a deck that really just wants the pro-green, it's going to be meh at best, and possibly detrimental at worst (they might have flashback, unearth, gaea's blessing, reanimation, god only knows what).

Finally, on the subject of competitive players: Yes, many focus too much on winning. That is their prerogative, and is what they find fun. When they consistently deride anyone else is the point at which I take offense. I've not yet seen that happen here. You've kinda stereotyped all competitive Legacy players into a corner here, and it's actually fairly offensive (as someone who once played competitive Legacy to test whacky concepts, not to win). I would recommend you take five minutes, take a breather, and come back with a clearer head. :smallwink:

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 04:16 PM

The point was (and is) being missed. Kill the Tarmagoyf. Extirpate the Tarmagoyf. Never worry about the Tarmagoyf again because there is *nothing* they can do about that.

Further, I refuse to believe that in combat it's all that great either, especially against white, which I believe Penguinizer said he plays. The amount of RFG white has for "target attacking creature" is about as big as black's "destroy target non-black creature" library.

But, whatever. I ranted, I'm done with it.

Can't wait for Scars to come out. I do believe it'll be a sexy party.

Suedars

2010-08-04, 04:36 PM

This is absurd. I can't believe that the entire competitive side of a format is so completely wrapped up around how "powerful" a *creature* is that rather than just look at the problem objectively and deal with it, as a creature, the single weakest, easiest to deal with problem in the entire bloody game, people would rather scoff and say "Oh, no, you're the one being ridiculous, being able to solve the "problem" we're having, we'd rather tart it about as being the most horrendous problem we've ever faced!" :smallmad:

Right, a format where many of the best decks don't even bother playing any removal is completely wrapped up around a creature. Most combo decks could care less about Tarmogoyf. Legacy is about doing broken things. Beating in with Tarmogoyf is definitely not broken. The only reason Zoo and similar decks exist is because the most powerful decks of the format are incredibly difficult to play and usually are not played to anywhere near their full potential. The best way to beat goyf isn't through some janky two card combo that still leaves the opposing deck with numerous other threats, but to better your deck's win condition and get it off earlier while being more resistant to disruption.

You're thinking about Legacy like it's Standard. For most cards, Tarmogoyf is not an interactive card. Dealing with a goyf on the board isn't something worth doing. In Standard, you'd have to, because you generally have to win through the board, and a goyf will generally dominate the board. But in Legacy? All a goyf means is "you have 4 turns to win: go".

And as for Extirpate being "bad" because you have to be hit in the face with the problem card before you can use it? Equally ridiculous! Just like you said, use Duress effects. It is NOT difficult to get a card out of the hand and into the graveyard, and then just *what* are they supposed to do about it when you use a spell with Split Second to remove not only that card and every copy of that card from your hand, graveyard, and library?

Laugh at you wasting two cards, then beat you with any of their other threats. There is no Tarmogoyf deck in Legacy. A lot of decks run goyf, but not deck looks to go goyf->win in the same way that decks look to go Tendrils->win

While we're at it? For the same mana cost as a bloody Tarmagoyf, you can strip out a noncreature spell from the opponent's hand and then strip it out of the game entirely. Two. Bloody. Mana. "Oh but it's one more card, you silly fool!" And your point is... what? Hmmz, for two cards, I can strip that powerful card out of my opponent's deck before he even hits me in the face with it. Or, *gasp* he could hit me with it anyway, and then I'll strip it away. Now he can't do that terrible, devastating thing, ever again.

Ok, let's assume that you always have Thoughtseize to go with your Extirpate. Let's ignore the fact that if you don't, you get to hope that they generously sac their goyf for you, since there's no other way that your creatureless, removalless deck is getting their goyf into the yard. But we're being generous here. We'll ignore that. So let's look at what each card of the two card combo does. The thoughtseize is spending a mana, 2 life, and a card to look at their hand and remove a card. That's pretty good. It can get rid of disruption for your "screw you, I win no matter what" combo, or if you're inexplicably terrified of being on a 5 turn clock, can get rid of an opponent's goyf.

Now let's look at Extirpate. For one mana and a card you can remove the possibility of having to deal with a card that you already dealt with. It's possible that they never would have drawn it anyways, meaning that you wasted a card, but that card is really scary, so let's ignore that. Not so good on total.

Let's look at what your two mana two card two life combo gets you in an ideal world where you always get both of them: One card out of the opponent's hand for two cards (ouch, two-for-oneing yourself), no mana spent by the opponent or tempo lost in any way, but you get to remove a non-unique threat from their deck. It doesn't matter that you reduced your ability to dig for your combo and probably reduced that combo's efficiency, your opponent doesn't have Tarmogoyf any more! I'm so glad that no deck ever plays Knight of the Reliquary.

Honestly, I'd like to see what would happen if people would just start *dealing* with Tarmagoyf instead of constantly using it as an excuse. :smallannoyed:

They do all the time. It's called "combo off and laugh at the person who thought attacking with creatures in a format of turn 2 wins was a good idea"

HamHam

2010-08-04, 04:40 PM

Penguinizer

2010-08-04, 04:46 PM

Legacy doesn't have too many turn 2 wins. With the banning of mystical tutor the format is a bit slower. It's around turn 3-4, which is enough time to get hate out on the table.

As for removal. Non-combo decks have a lot. All of it deals with the board. If your deck is non-combo and runs white. You should either have 4x Swords to Plowshares or 4x Path to Exile. Zoo has those. It has Lightning Bolt. It has Chain Lightning. It has Flameblast. It has Grim Lavamancer. Suffice to say, removal is plentiful.

Goyf is not the end-all creature. The reason it is so good is that it's so versatile. It's cheap. It gets to the field early. And in the run of the game, it doesn't need anything. It lets them get an early threat out, forcing you to deal with it to buy them time.

The thing here is. My deck runs 10 removal effects. Goyf creates the "Oh crap" effect. You have to deal with it fast. The thing is, it's rarely alone. Zoo's ideal turn 1-3 plays include: Turn 1 Wild Nacatl/Kird Ape. Turn 2: Swing for 2-3. Play goyf. Turn 3: removal, 1-drop. Swing for 6. Turn 4: Swing the opponent down to 2-3. Fireblast.

What do you deal with? The 3/4 or 4/5? The 3/3? The 2/3?

The problem is that you simply can't deal with all of it. Not to mention that a lot of decks also have stuff like countertop that lets them sit back and counter just about all of your plays while their goyf chips away at you. It isn't always as simple.

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 07:23 PM

Bucky

2010-08-04, 07:44 PM

HamHam - That's weird; when I build a deck, I try to do so without making almost twenty percent of my deck relative garbage. Which, with a sixty card deck, that's what ten cards is. So, I'll just be calling shenanigans on milling "jank". I don't know how *your* experienced players do things, but the ones I cut my teeth on were just as concerned by mill for ten as I am today.

Let me put it this way:
Assume my deck has just been shuffled and is completely random, meaning any order of the cards still present in it is equally likely. Further assume there are still at least 20 cards left in it. Finally, assume both decks are fast enough that there is a high chance the game will end sometime in the next 10 turns, so that the mill 10 is not a threat to immediately win the game.

My deck has a top 10 cards, and it has 10 cards immediately below those. Since the deck is ordered randomly, each sequence of 10 cards in the deck is equally likely to be the top 10 as the next 10. For each case where you mill a sequence away, there is a corresponding and equally likely case that you mill me directly to that sequence, which I would otherwise not have drawn before the end of the game.

Therefore, unless the game goes very long, the mill 10 has on average no effect whatsoever on the cards I play, no matter how much my cards vary in quality.

(Of course, this changes if I'm running library search effects or the game goes very long)

While we're at it, milling somebody for twenty cards in one turn IS mean, and that's all I was suggesting when I was talking about Hellkite Charger and Sword of Body and Mind. That was my point. Doing it with the sword and Hellkite Charger just makes me snicker.
Beating someone for 14 damage in one turn is mean; the mill is just a bonus.

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 08:00 PM

Suedars

2010-08-04, 08:06 PM

How is beating someone for 14 damage mean? Sure, it hurts, they're losing life. Stripping out 20 cards is what makes it mean; you don't by any means have to put the Sword on the Charger to get excessive damage cranked out per turn.

How is stripping 20 cards mean? It's absolutely meaningless since the damage is a much faster clock than the milling. Anyone who actually understands the statistics of milling won't see it as mean.

Barring stuff like Wrexial, offensive milling is just another clock, nothing else. It's irrelevant whether the five cards your opponent draws before the game ends are cards 11-15, 11, 22, 33, 44, and 55, or 22-26.

Suedars

2010-08-04, 08:11 PM

memnarch

2010-08-04, 08:16 PM

Milling is chance. Sometimes you get lucky and mill good things; sometimes you aren't and mill bad things. With the exception of when someone stacks their deck of course.

Of course, if you build a deck around milling, that's a different story. The issue here though was that the 10 card milling ability seems tacked on and somewhat useless, right?

HamHam

2010-08-04, 09:20 PM

Foeofthelance

2010-08-04, 09:21 PM

Actually, Blue seems to be moving more and more towards Mill as an alternative win strategy. So putting it on kinda makes sense.

You get:

Extra damage
Extra toughness
Protection from most bounce
Protection from most large creatures
A free blocker to replace the equipped creature

A chance to knock out 1/6 of your opponent's library if you deal damage, possibly removing a counter. Put it on something with trample or evasion, and you have a happy deal. If anything, the mill is overkill. But since there is no such thing as overkill...

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 10:21 PM

How is stripping 20 cards mean? It's absolutely meaningless since the damage is a much faster clock than the milling. Anyone who actually understands the statistics of milling won't see it as mean.

Barring stuff like Wrexial, offensive milling is just another clock, nothing else. It's irrelevant whether the five cards your opponent draws before the game ends are cards 11-15, 11, 22, 33, 44, and 55, or 22-26.

There's a distinct difference; stop thinking with your mind of metal and gears, Saruman. Dealing damage to the opponent and taking out their life total is basically expected. You guys said yourselves, there's a probability that those cards wouldn't have even seen play that game. With mill, that's guarunteed. "Hmmm... I could let you play the game... but I'd rather just put all of your cards in the graveyard so that you can't cast them."

That's why milling for 20 is mean.

Suedars

2010-08-04, 10:42 PM

There's a distinct difference; stop thinking with your mind of metal and gears, Saruman. Dealing damage to the opponent and taking out their life total is basically expected. You guys said yourselves, there's a probability that those cards wouldn't have even seen play that game. With mill, that's guarunteed. "Hmmm... I could let you play the game... but I'd rather just put all of your cards in the graveyard so that you can't cast them."

That's why milling for 20 is mean.

"Hmmm.... I could let you play the game... but I'd rather just kill you so that you can't cast your cards."

How many games do you ever draw more than half your library? I'd argue that milling isn't actually mean, it just feels mean to those who have never taken the time to actually stop and think about how it works.

And I'd much rather spend my time being mean to people who play Arccum Dagson in EDH than people who are probably relatively new to the game.

MountainKing

2010-08-04, 11:21 PM

The difference being that, you can still play after taking damage. How many turns does it take being milled for 20 before you can't play anymore? Or better, what are the odds that if you got milled for 20 instead of ten, you just lost the answers you needed to keep going?

To me, milling is a really cheap way to win. At least if I got beat down, I was still playing the game.

HamHam

2010-08-04, 11:28 PM

The difference being that, you can still play after taking damage. How many turns does it take being milled for 20 before you can't play anymore?

3, unless they have already burned through 20 cards themselves (which is not that common in the early to mid game).

How many turn does it take being beat for 14 before you can't play anymore?

2, unless they have already taken 6 (which is very likely in the mid game, especially with fetches and thoughtseizes and such).

Winning the game in 2(1) turns is better than winning the game in 3(2) turns.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-04, 11:48 PM

The card isn't terrible, the problem is that it's not playable in Legacy, because it does nothing that Legacy wants in a progreen equipment. Best case scenario, you mill all their combo pieces away, but then they're losing anyway because they didn't have them in their hand. Worse case, you mill a graveyard based deck and then you're screwed. Against Zoo or Fish or any non-combo deck, the mill 10 doesn't really hurt, because the threat density is so high you haven't really milled anything important.

Suedars

2010-08-05, 01:58 AM

The difference being that, you can still play after taking damage.

You can still play after being milled for 10 or even 20.

Or better, what are the odds that if you got milled for 20 instead of ten, you just lost the answers you needed to keep going?

This has been answered numerous times. The odds of drawing the answer you need doesn't change when you get milled. The chances of every answer in your deck getting milled away are the same as the chances of the milling setting you up a perfect series of draws that all but guarantees a win, when you ordinarily never would have dug deep enough to draw any of those cards.

To me, milling is a really cheap way to win. At least if I got beat down, I was still playing the game.

You're still playing the game while being milled. If you get milled over 5 turns you get 5 draws to stop the threat. If you get beat down over 5 turns you get 5 draws to stop the threat. There's no difference between getting milled for 10 and losing your only answers to being milled, and being killed then peeking through your library and seeing that every relevant answer spell was on the bottom of your library.

In fact, the milling scenario is preferable. If I'm running any sort of recursion, I now have easy access to the answers that have conveniently been placed in my graveyard. It's much harder to dig thirty five cards into my library.

Squark

2010-08-05, 10:55 AM

Ultimately, Milling is more Psychological than anything else. A lot of players react badly when they see their best cards go the graveyard, instead of thinking rationally (do I still have the cards I need to beat him down in my hand/on the field). For instance, milling 3 of my nantuko shades seems devastating... Until you find out the forth one was my next draw/ In my hand already. And for every time you do something like that, there's the time that you'll get rid of a bunch of land, draw, and 1-drops that I wasn't particularly interested in seeing anyway. So unless you intend to actually mill me out, the mill effect of the sword isn't helpful. Now, if you had a way to ensure that my nantuko shades/Jace TMS/Baneslayer angels/Primeval Titans/Whatevers were going to be milled, that's different. But there isn't a ton of fateseal and/or mystical tutor-ish stuff in any environment I can think of off hand, so that's a null point.

On the topic of Extirpate- Ultimately, the problem with the card is the archetype that really wants it (Mill) isn't competitive in most situations. In the event mill ever becomes competitive in legacy, Extirpate will be more useful, since you can use it to get rid of a combo piece like Dread Return, Tendrils of Agony, Stroke of Genius, or Grindstone from their hand and their graveyard. But as is, most mill decks in legacy plow through your whole deck in one go, so they don't need something like Extirpate.

HamHam

2010-08-05, 12:15 PM

Extirpate is very good against many decks, but not all decks. Thus it is a very good sideboard card, but not that great in the maindeck.

Duos

2010-08-07, 07:54 AM

Bleh. I keep missing FNM events because stuff comes up. I haven't gone to one in over a month.

What about you, guys? How do you keep time open for Magic?

Lady Tialait

2010-08-07, 09:04 AM

My husband has Thursday nights off. Because of payday.

He told them that he would quit the Thursday they scheduled him for. Soooo, we end up playing every Thursday.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-07, 11:37 AM

Bleh. I keep missing FNM events because stuff comes up. I haven't gone to one in over a month.

What about you, guys? How do you keep time open for Magic?

I try not to work on a Magic day, but I've got at least four days where I can play magic, so i'll usually have some day off.
Speaking of FNM's, M11 is so much fun to draft guys. And I'm actually good at it too. Crazy.

Oh, so me and my friends came up with the best multiplayer format ever.

You start with a planar map. Lay about 36 planechase cards face down however you want, a 6x6 square is nice but it doesn't matter.

Then you get two games going. Each game starts on a random plane, and turns it face up. The game proceeds as normal, and as you planeswalk, you flip up new planes as you get to them.

Where things get interesting is when both games are on the same plane. There, global effects will effect both games. So if someone in one game destroys all creatures, all creatures are destroyed in both games. But just global effects. You can't target or attack across games. It's just to add the "we're all battling on this plane so these effects happen all across it"

At the end of one game, they scoop up all the face up planes the other team hasn't seen shuffle them with the leftovers, lay more down and start again.

The whole idea was a the planar map thing, but the added little variety when both games are on the same plane was what made the idea fun.

SoD

2010-08-08, 04:07 AM

Bleh. I keep missing FNM events because stuff comes up. I haven't gone to one in over a month.

What about you, guys? How do you keep time open for Magic?

I work from 0900-1515 weekdays, and have weekends off. My gaming shop has casual FNM fridays from 1500-1800, and drafts all day until 1700 saturday. It just works out for me.

tgva8889

2010-08-08, 10:41 AM

Sword that mills for 10 on hit will probably find a way to make that useful. I imagine it involving Haunting Echos or Extirpate or similar cards. Perhaps the 'Goyf will find a way, or maybe some other weird card.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-10, 02:01 AM

Bucky

2010-08-10, 02:23 AM

Sometimes I am amazing.
This is not one of those times.

I came up with this list talking about possible 5 color decks in Standard. I'm so sorry.

3 Jace the Mindsculptor
2 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Garruk Wilderspeaker
1 Nicol Bolas, Plansewalker
1 Sarkhan the Mad
1 Sarkhan Vol

4 Wall of Omens
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Birds of Paradise

3 Day of Judgement
4 Path to Exile

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
3 Plain
3 Island
3 Forest

It's a beautiful machine. It's a machine you have to kick to get working, and it gets jammed up pretty easy, but it's beautiful when it works. It has no sideboard right now because I can't possibly think of one. Any suggestions?

Run some Shards trilands. With only three one-drops in the deck, you can afford to play a tapped land on turn one much of the time, and you can also usually play one on turn 3. Meanwhile, the combination of Jace Beleren and your various four-drops means that you need some of your blue lands to tap for other colors.

In particular, you only need one basic mountain and one basic swamp for fetch purposes and can replace the other three of them with Crumbling Necropolis to make it easier to cast Jace.

If your mana continues to not work, running Pentad Prism is not out of the question.

Suedars

2010-08-10, 03:27 AM

Sometimes I am amazing.
This is not one of those times.

I came up with this list talking about possible 5 color decks in Standard. I'm so sorry.

3 Jace the Mindsculptor
2 Jace Beleren
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Garruk Wilderspeaker
1 Nicol Bolas, Plansewalker
1 Sarkhan the Mad
1 Sarkhan Vol

4 Wall of Omens
4 Lotus Cobra
3 Birds of Paradise

3 Day of Judgement
4 Path to Exile

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
3 Plain
3 Island
3 Forest

It's a beautiful machine. It's a machine you have to kick to get working, and it gets jammed up pretty easy, but it's beautiful when it works. It has no sideboard right now because I can't possibly think of one. Any suggestions?

The problem with sideboarding with this sort of deck is that most sideboard plans are just going to get rid of your theme. I mean, I could recommend Spreading Seas, since it's just an awesome card, but 99% of the time you'll sideboard out your Nicol Bolas and Sarkhans for them. The same goes for any other sideboard cards. Have you played with Sarkhan the Mad yet? It seems like your curve is too high for him to really do much aside from cycle and absorb an attack. You aren't really running enough creatures for his -1 to be reliable on your guys, so all it'll end up doing is defanging the occasional Baneslayer or Titan. Sarkhan Vol also seems like he'd be better replaced by a Garruk, since this isn't really the sort of deck where creature pump or threaten effects are that good. Ramp and dorks seem like they'd be appreciated though.

Shas aia Toriia

2010-08-11, 07:43 AM

Man, you guys and your dedicated Magic days. I don't have any of those. :smallfrown:

Bucky

2010-08-11, 11:17 AM

I came up with this list talking about possible 5 color decks in Standard. I'm so sorry.

It's a beautiful machine. It's a machine you have to kick to get working, and it gets jammed up pretty easy, but it's beautiful when it works. It has no sideboard right now because I can't possibly think of one. Any suggestions?

Alright, here's a fuller analysis of the mana requirements. Note that I am not counting Path to Exile as a mana source, although Pathing your own creature for the land is sometimes necessary in this deck!

You absolutely need the full 14 green sources, mostly untapped ones, in order to play the Birds and Cobras reliably. Failure to find a green source probably means an automatic loss. You need 2 additional sources (covered by Birds) to pay Garruk's double-green consistently

You need 16 white sources to support the Days, Paths, Walls and Elspeths. You can count taplands and Birds here, with Cobras counting towards the last two sources only.

You need 16 blue sources to manage turn 3 Jace. All mana producers count for something here, including Cobra, but the probability of creatures dying needs to be taken into account.

You only need black for Nicol Bolas and Sarkhan the Mad. 7 sources should be sufficient, accounting for creatures not reliably remaining alive late

You only need red for five planeswalkers, none of whom requires double-red. 9 or 10 red sources should work.

So your total mana requirements to avoid mana problems are 16 green, 16 white, 16 blue, 7 black, 9 red. Counting the birds as roughly 2 mana sources (they get shot half the time) and Cobras as 2 sources for non-W/G, we get land requirements of (W:14, U:12, B:3, R:5, G:14). You have allocated 25 land slots, so the deck needs 23 more color sources than lands.

For basic fetching we need at least:
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

To get our color count back up to par, we need some tri-sources in addition to our duals. We also add enough fetches that we want 2 additional basics to avoid fetch exhaustion. Thus we use this manabase:

3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Seaside Citadels
2 Jungle Shrine
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Veradent Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Teramorphic Expanse (preferentially fetches white)

The fetchlands are rather tricky to operate properly to avoid exhaustion. If you find you have problems with that, sub out a Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest for Evolving Wilds and Island.

EDIT: Oh, and -1 Cobra, +1 Birds. You need the consistency.

Copacetic

2010-08-11, 09:22 PM

Bucky

2010-08-11, 09:50 PM

So, I've decided to put together a combo deck using Echo Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198163)/ Reality Spasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193652) infinite mana combo to power level and then abuse a Enclave Cryptologist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194903) into drawing me my library and then Traumatize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208221)/Keening Stone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193441) for the win. Thoughts?

You can't level up while the Reality Spasm is on the stack, and once it leaves the stack you can't untap the Cryptologist. (You also cannot use your infinite loots to fetch the Keening Stone, and then to untap it, but can fix this by tutoring up another Reality Spasm.)

The Cryptologist is still fine for seting up your combo as well as being an alternative way to combo off, but I'd suggest making your deck more redundant by using Twitch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198396) as your third combo piece.

How the Twitch version of the combo works is you combo off with level 2 or 4 Echo Mage for infinite mana, then with the Spasm still on the stack play Twitch. You can then copy the Twitch, untapping the Echo Mage and drawing a card each time, at the expense of your stored mana. You use this to draw into another Spasm and your Keening stone and then play Keening Stone and go off again.

(The Traumatize is not necessary except as a separate combo kill. If you're worried about your opponent not having a card in their graveyard, a single Tome Scour is sufficient, and can also be more easily infinitely copied by a Echo Mage)
---
Now if you wish to use two different combo kills, Echo Mage/Reality Spasm and Traumatize/Keening Stone, then you probably wish to add black to the deck for Diabolic Tutor and creature control. The problem with this route is that while it consistently kills around turn 7, it soaks up all your mana over turns 4, 5 and 6, during which you're helpless.

You could be cute, though, and load up on counterspells, Into the Roil and Leyline of Anticipation. That way, you can tutor up and play Leyline on turn 5, then have counters up for the rest of the game while doing your winning at the end of your opponent's turn. I don't think it's the best way to build the deck, but I might be wrong.
---
To fill out the rest of the deck, you need cheap answers and acceleration. The obvious cards here are Mana Leak, Everflowing Chalice and whatever you can get from a second color that is cheap and copiable by Echo Mage.

Finally, you need one card in your deck that can get Eldrazi out of the discard pile, since you can only win by milling. Ravenous Trap seems to be the right card here. Alternatively, you can find a spell in your second color to make infinite copies of with Echo Mage, that kills more directly.

Copacetic

2010-08-12, 12:40 PM

You can't level up while the Reality Spasm is on the stack, and once it leaves the stack you can't untap the Cryptologist. (You also cannot use your infinite loots to fetch the Keening Stone, and then to untap it, but can fix this by tutoring up another Reality Spasm.)

The Cryptologist is still fine for seting up your combo as well as being an alternative way to combo off, but I'd suggest making your deck more redundant by using Twitch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198396) as your third combo piece.

How the Twitch version of the combo works is you combo off with level 2 or 4 Echo Mage for infinite mana, then with the Spasm still on the stack play Twitch. You can then copy the Twitch, untapping the Echo Mage and drawing a card each time, at the expense of your stored mana. You use this to draw into another Spasm and your Keening stone and then play Keening Stone and go off again.

(The Traumatize is not necessary except as a separate combo kill. If you're worried about your opponent not having a card in their graveyard, a single Tome Scour is sufficient, and can also be more easily infinitely copied by a Echo Mage)
---
Now if you wish to use two different combo kills, Echo Mage/Reality Spasm and Traumatize/Keening Stone, then you probably wish to add black to the deck for Diabolic Tutor and creature control. The problem with this route is that while it consistently kills around turn 7, it soaks up all your mana over turns 4, 5 and 6, during which you're helpless.

You could be cute, though, and load up on counterspells, Into the Roil and Leyline of Anticipation. That way, you can tutor up and play Leyline on turn 5, then have counters up for the rest of the game while doing your winning at the end of your opponent's turn. I don't think it's the best way to build the deck, but I might be wrong.
---
To fill out the rest of the deck, you need cheap answers and acceleration. The obvious cards here are Mana Leak, Everflowing Chalice and whatever you can get from a second color that is cheap and copiable by Echo Mage.

Finally, you need one card in your deck that can get Eldrazi out of the discard pile, since you can only win by milling. Ravenous Trap seems to be the right card here. Alternatively, you can find a spell in your second color to make infinite copies of with Echo Mage, that kills more directly.

&*^% Leveling as a sorcery. I forgot about that. But thank you, this is a ton of very useful advice for a still rather green player. I'll take a look at my collection and have a decklist posted soonish to see what the playground thinks.

memnarch

2010-08-12, 02:23 PM

What about that one untap, double counters on target creature guy?

Bucky

2010-08-12, 03:13 PM

What about that one untap, double counters on target creature guy?

He's more expensive overall than just levelling up normally

tgva8889

2010-08-12, 05:42 PM

He's more expensive overall than just levelling up normally

...Unless you are leveling, like, Kabira Vindicator.

memnarch

2010-08-12, 07:15 PM

He's more expensive overall than just levelling up normally

Overall? Depends on how many counters you need. For the cryptologist, it is useless. For the echo mage, it's one less mana to level up, discounting that the guy is 3 mana to cast. I was looking more at the fact that he'll put counters on at instant speed, getting around the Level Up as a sorcery.

There aren't many leveler guys that the double guy doesn't work well with though.

Penguinizer

2010-08-14, 04:45 AM

Turns out there's a Vintage tournament (no proxies) taking place at a gaming store only a little bit away, and I was thinking of going there. However, I had no deck when deciding, so me and a few friends had to think of a deck. Here's what we came up with.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [AQ] Strip Mine (1)
2 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
9 [US] Swamp (1)
2 [OD] Cabal Pit

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor

// Spells
3 [WL] Null Rod
1 [V09] Necropotence
1 [US] Yawgmoth's Will
3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
1 [ZEN] Sadistic Sacrament
1 [V09] Lotus Petal
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
1 [U] Mind Twist
1 [IA] Demonic Consultation
1 [U] Demonic Tutor
3 [DDC] Duress
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [6E] Vampiric Tutor
2 [BD] Diabolic Edict
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ZEN] Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 [BD] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void

I still think that the SB Edict should be maindeck, but I have no idea what to remove. Does anyone else have any knowledge about Vintage they'd want to share?

Malacode

2010-08-14, 05:18 AM

Okay, so my FLCS is starting up a legacy side event to go with the FNM. I would -really- like to get involved, as Type 2 is getting a little dull (Went 2-0, 2-0, 2-1, 1-2, 1-1 last night and came 2nd overall with my RDW). I have no real power cards though... I have two dread returns and a couple of Dredgers though, so I was wondering if it'd be possible to build a budget UBG dredge deck that aims to cast a turn one One With Nothing, using a Gemstone Caverns, then dredge from the first draw. Final aim? Get some nasty Eldrazi titan out with a flashback'd Dread Return.
Golgari Cave Troll, Narcomoebas and Ichorid are a must, but I don't want to use Bridge From Below, as I haven't got access to it and my FLGS hasn't either. Beyond that, i have no idea what to do.

Penguinizer

2010-08-14, 05:34 AM

One with nothing is a bad card. The good discard outlets are cards like Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe.

Bridge from Beyond is an integral part of the deck, and is one of the ways it wins. Also, the Eldrazi aren't a good target. A good re-animation target would be ideally Akroma. But many people have Terastodon as a secondary target. They can also re-animate a Golgari Gravetroll if they have dredge enough.

It sounds like you're more of a casual type player. I would not recommend Dredge. In the end, you're going to be playing entirely differently from most M:tG players. The deck is also difficult to pilot in games 2-3 depending on your meta. There is so much grave hate these days that it's challenging to play around it.

None the less. Let's start off with what you do want.
Manabase:
Rainbow lands:
3x City of Brass
2x Forbidden Orchard
3x Gemstone Mine

Another land you want is Cephalid Coliseum as it allows you to dredge more. The other lands produce any type of mana you might need.

Discard outlets:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Tireless Tribe

They stay on the field, are 1 CMC and can be re-used.

You also want 4x Breakthrough and 3x Careful Study. These can be used with dredgers if you already have a discard outlet, or to get them into the grave in the first place.

Dredgers, the business cards:
4x Golgari Gravetroll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
2x Darkblast

Synergies:
3x Ichorid
4x Bridge from Beyond
3x Dread Return
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy

Re-animation targets:
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria (Capable of shutting down entire decks. You might want to side it out if the opponent has Karakas though.)
1x Terastodon (You can shoot your own lands to get more creatures on the field.)

The deck is challenging to play. But has a strong game 1. The sideboard has a lot of options, but most go towards fighting the opponent's grave hate.

Quayleman

2010-08-14, 03:29 PM

Eon

2010-08-14, 03:55 PM

Just returned from camping, and my first magic draft :smallbiggrin:

First pack had a Foil Gideon Jura :smallsmile:

My deck, which earned 3rd in the tournament:

1 shiny Gideon Jura
1 Lighthouse Chronologist
2 Narcolepsy
1 Drake Umbra
3 Skywatcher Adept
1 Halimar Wavewatch
1 Renegade Doppelganger
1 Guard Gomazoa
1 Hada Sky Patrol
2 Venerated Teacher
1 Unified Will
2 Lay Bare
1 Shared Discovery
2 Deprive
2 Champion's Drake
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Totem-Guide Hartebeast
1 Mammoth Umbra
2 Prophetic Prism
1 Puncturing Light
2 Caravan Escort
2 Eland Umbra
1 Emerge Unscathed
1 Dawnglare Invoker

9 Island
7 Plains

(I should have organized that better :smalleek:)

I won a Darksteel Reactor :smallbiggrin:

I love the new level up system! It's really cool...

Bucky

2010-08-14, 04:10 PM

Penguinizer

2010-08-14, 05:07 PM

Only thing I would take out of the main would be... hand disruption? Like go down to 3 Hymn main?

I hope you shut down everyones moxen with turn 1 null rod every single game.

Hymn is actually one of the strongest discard cards in the decks. The thing with only 2 Edicts is that I'll have to edict myself for Persecutor. I added 2x Phyrexian Tower to fix that. I don't know how many moxen there'll be though. I think that a lot of the deck's strength comes from the disruption. I need a lot of it to consistently disrupt the opponent.

SoD

2010-08-14, 07:12 PM

Just returned from camping, and my first magic draft :smallbiggrin:

First pack had a Foil Gideon Jura :smallsmile:

Bugger. Did you go well enough to keep it? I know I managed to with mine :smallbiggrin:

Eon

2010-08-15, 08:36 AM

Bugger. Did you go well enough to keep it? I know I managed to with mine :smallbiggrin:

It's right here next to me. Proved very helpful.

@Bucky: Ah, I just kind of guessed, based on the average mana cost.

Bucky

2010-08-15, 09:25 AM

@Bucky: Ah, I just kind of guessed, based on the average mana cost.

It isn't average mana cost you need to take into account as much as the top of your 'normal' curve. You have a couple Umbras that should be played promptly on turn 5. That calls for a 17th land by itself, but you also have several reasons to want extra lands beyond the fifth (Level Up, Dawnglare Invoker).

Eon

2010-08-15, 11:01 AM

It isn't average mana cost you need to take into account as much as the top of your 'normal' curve. You have a couple Umbras that should be played promptly on turn 5. That calls for a 17th land by itself, but you also have several reasons to want extra lands beyond the fifth (Level Up, Dawnglare Invoker).

Ah... Well... I'll need to remember that :smallredface:

Squark

2010-08-15, 04:29 PM

Bleh. I keep missing FNM events because stuff comes up. I haven't gone to one in over a month.

What about you, guys? How do you keep time open for Magic?

Because FNM and my high school gaming club ARE my social life. Also, I don't have a job yet, so that helps.

Also, I just purchased 2 beautiful M11 packs. Duress and mana leak in each of them, and classic, staple cards abounding, with Demon of Death's Gate and Liliana Vess for rares. *sigh* It's times like this that make me regret buying packs for my sister. Next time, she picks them herself. And they where in French, which amps the cool factor up for me (And bought on my trip to France this last week, I might add). I seem to have rotten luck picking my packs, but of course the ones I get for my sister are often pretty good.

Also, after opening nearly a box worth of M11, I have yet to pull a cultivate. It's really starting to bug me.

Malacode

2010-08-15, 05:37 PM

That's gotta be painful. At least DDG and Lili weren't foil :p. Of course, you could always be devious and buy a singelton of like, Wild Evocation or some other cheap rare from M11. I kid, I kid.

I have a new decklist to be commented on, if anyone wouldn't mind having a look over it. Just came up with it yesterday and so far it's been pretty consistent in getting a turn five or six win.

18 Forest

4 Overwhelming Stampede
2 Overrun
4 Primal Bellow
4 Explore
4 Culivate
2 Rampant Growth

2 Birds of Paradise
4 Arbor Elf
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Leatherback Baloth
2 Garruk's Companion
4 Pelakka Wurm
2 Duskdale Wurm
2 Howl of the Night Pack

Pretty basic, yeah? Mulligan till you get some ramp, then either get around 6 2/2 wolves or a Wurm on turn four, then Stampede/Overrun next turn, boosting everything with a Primal Bellow on your biggest creature (Stampede) or saving it for whatever isn't blocked (Overrun). Okay, a turn three or four Wurm or Howl is Magical Christmasland, but Magical Christmasland happens suprisingly often with this deck.
Turn one: Land + Elf/Birds.
Turn two: Land Explore Land Explore Elf/Birds
Turn three: land Howl/Wurm
Turn four: SWING

I'm thinking of replacing the Comapnions with more Howls... Not sure though. Those Duskdales would be Primeval Titans if I could afford them.

Copacetic

2010-08-15, 06:59 PM

I'm not pleased.

I went to a sealed last night. Six sweet packs of M11 in front of me. My friend sitting next has always had a trend of opening expensive white mythic rares (Gideon Jura, Baneslayer, and Iona including), so I turned and said to him "You're going to open a Sun Titan." Once we got going, you want to know the first rare in his pack? Sun Titan. Around the table the other 4 people each opened either a titan, a planeswalker, or both. The one guy who only opened Lilianna also opened a Fauna Shaman and an Obstanite Baloth. My rare's? Haunting Echoes, Reverbrate, and the like. And thus continues the trend of me opening #$%&-rares. :smallsigh:

Bucky

2010-08-16, 11:20 AM

Suedars

2010-08-16, 01:00 PM

Explore is also pretty terrible in an 18 land deck.

Malacode

2010-08-16, 05:36 PM

I'll take it up to 20, but what shall I take out? I don't particularly want to get rid of Rampant Growth, even though it's been the least useful spell so far. Overrun and Overwhelming Stampede are important, as are the Wurms and Howls. I can probably survive without Garruk's Companion though, its not as great as I thought it'd be.

Even if Explore doesn't get me a second land in a turn, it gets me deeper into my deck, and that's why I run four of them and two growths instead of the other way around. Needing one of eight cards and one of six cards on turn four doesn't seem that unlikely, but every bit helps. Also, Explore turns a four land hand into a playable one, which none of my other spells can do. Normally I only want to see two in my opening hand.

Suedars

2010-08-16, 06:05 PM

I'd cut or trim the Growths. You've already got 10 birds which ramp you to 3, so playing a 2 drop right after you play one is rather wasteful. You've also already got explores in that slot. The Companions are also fairly unimpressive, and don't really fit at all with what your deck is looking to do. You want to ramp to threats, not flood with beaters. They've also got the same 2-drop problem as the Growths. One thing you should look for in testing is how well the deck does when it has its birds killed or its Growth effects countered. It seems like it's quite fragile there and might stumble hard. You might want to take that weakness into account.

Calmar

2010-08-17, 03:15 PM

Hi!
The first post says one may talk about storyline here, too... so, two days ago I discovered that MtG actually has a story - until then I thought the game would be simply using arbitrary creatures and characters for the cards with an at best vague background-theme to tie the stuff together. :smalleek:

Well, I found some snippets about the villain and god of the machines Yawgmoth and his kybernetic-eugenic Phyrexian creatures, and I have to say that sounds like an extremely cool and thrilling horror story! :smallsmile:

Which book(s) detail the struggle against the Phyrexians? And are they in fact good?

Also, while it seems the storyline with them is now quite old, the Phyrexians seem to be back (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/391). Does anyone have any information about this?

Shas aia Toriia

2010-08-17, 03:17 PM

Also, while it seems the storyline with them is now quite old, the Phyrexians seem to be back (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/391). Does anyone have any information about this?

Those decks aren't an actual part of official Magic. Rather, they made those two decks as a promotional, learn the game kind of deal. The cards are only tournament legal in situations where the original cards are legal, and there is no story behind Phyrexia vs. the Coalition - only what was explored in the books.

Lady Tialait

2010-08-17, 03:33 PM

Which book(s) detail the struggle against the Phyrexians? And are they in fact good?

My bookshelf has the following books on it. But I warn you...I'm a Urza fangirl.

The Brothers' War
Planeswalker
Time Streams
Bloodlines: The Story of Urza's Destiny
Invasion
Planeshift
Apocalypse

That will give you a good feel for the Phyrexians I love those books.

IthilanorStPete

2010-08-17, 03:45 PM

The books that detail the war against Phyrexia, in in-story chronological order. In parentheses is the corresponding Magic set:

The Thran (no corresponding set)
The Brothers' War (Antiquities) - these two give the backstory of Yawgmoth and the Phyrexians, and Urza and Mishra respectively. Both excellent. Collected in Artifact Cycle, Volume I.

Planeswalker (Urza's Saga)
Time Streams (Urza's Legacy)
Bloodlines (Urza's Destiny) - These cover Urza's story. Planeswalker is superb, the other two are...pretty good. Collected in Artifact Cycle, Volume II.

Rath and Storm (Tempest, Stronghold, Exodus)
Mercadian Masques
Nemesis
Prophecy
Invasion
Planeshift
Apocalypse - These compose the Weatherlight Saga proper. I haven't read them; I've heard that they are middling to good.

EDIT: Also, as far as the storyline goes, I've heard that the Kamigawa and Ravnica books are both pretty awesome.

Calmar

2010-08-17, 03:54 PM

Thank you very much for the book-titles, Lady Tialait and IthilanorStPete! :smallsmile:

But I warn you...I'm a Urza fangirl.
I can't judge that statement. :smallwink: - pretty much the only things about Urza I know are that he's a powerful planewalker and that the concept of both the planes and planewalking in MtG seems to be quite different from it's D&D counterparts.

Penguinizer

2010-08-17, 04:14 PM

The only thing I know about Urza is that that ended up in some fun cards. What with Time Spiral, Memory Jar, Tolarian Academy...

Powercreep is totally there...

Squark

2010-08-17, 05:36 PM

The kamigawa and Ravnica books are both excellent. Other books to look out for are Agents of Artiface and The Purifying Fire, which are much more recent, but still worth a read. As far as the artifacts cycle goes, I really liked Planeswalker and The Brother's War, found Time Streams to be decent if somewhat longwinded, and Bloodlines to be decent, but it struggled to keep my interest. I'm afraid I haven't read The Thran, as my local library doesn't have it, and I keep forgetting to try one of the local bookstores, as Barnes and Noble only has the recent books.

Other books- I've heard bad things about Alara Unbroken, although I haven't read it myself. Most people find Time Spiral somewhat enh, although I found it mildly enjoyable (A word of warning- It's best to read this after you've read most of the previous storylines, as it was magic's nostalgic block). I've heard good things about the Ice Age storyline, although I've only read the first book- I do recommend reading The Brother's War first, though, as otherwise the mentions of it will be somewhat confusing.

And from most of what I gather, it's best not to touch the mirrodin novels with a ten foot pole.

What was where the Mirage novels like, by the way? I'm kind of curious, since I read Time Spiral (Where Teferi is a planeswalker) and the Artifacts cycle (where he isn't), and those novels seem to deal with the transition.

I can't judge that statement. :smallwink: - pretty much the only things about Urza I know are that he's a powerful planewalker and that the concept of both the planes and planewalking in MtG seems to be quite different from it's D&D counterparts.

A quick infodump, then (of course, knowing me, expect this to drag on). In the MTG universe, there are a near-infinite number of plains. Each plain is near totally isolated from each other- Aside from the Planeswalkers, only a few very powerful beings are capable of traveling from plane to plane, and the rest of us are stuck either hitching a ride with a planeswalker*, or using a few very powerful artifacts/spells, most of which were probably designed by 'walkers to begin with. Between the plains are the Blind Eternities, which are... Well, mysterious. Magic generally doesn't give a clear description of the place, only that it is very unfriendly and doesn't seem to follow all the rules we're used to.

Planeswalkers are powerful mages born with a special gift called the
"spark." The commonly used number is 1 in a million. However, most 'walkers go their whole life without their spark ever "flaring" as it is known. It generally takes either a traumatic event (Urza was blown into his constituent atoms, Chandra was about to be beheaded) or else some other unusual circumstance (Magic's current big bad, Nicol Bolas, became the first planeswalker after he won the Elder Dragon wars) to cause a spark to flare, resulting in their first planeswalk- Most 'walkers go insane from the stress of this.

Originally, Planeswalkers were immortal shapeshifters who were the closest thing to gods the setting had, Gaea possibly exempted (We're still not sure if she existed or not). However, to make them more identifiable (and as part of a marketing ploy), a few years ago Planeswalkers lost most of their powers, which allowed Magic to introduce the Planeswalker card type. Before that, the only Planeswalkers to appear in the game was, well, us. Because the player is a planeswalker, too (This seems to be being played up more in recent years as a marketing strategy).

Like I said, I tend to ramble on.

*How this works varies from book to book. In Planeswalker, Xantcha needed a special implant from Urza to accompany him, while Joira seemed not to need any protection when she traveled with Teferi in Time Sprial. Then again, Joira did have the advantage of having her aging slowed to a crawl (In 1000 years, she estimated she aged about 3). Also, Modern planeswalkers seem to have lost this ability.

Foeofthelance

2010-08-17, 05:58 PM

Alara Unbroken was, well, bad. No one got a happy ending, which was ridiculous.

-Elspeth has to leave Bant, her utopia having been tainted by Malefegor.
-Rafiq ends up killing his own best friend with poisonous metal, when there was no reason for it to suddenly be deadly.
-Ajani has to abandon his tribe.
-Nicol Bolas gets trapped by a "clone" trick.
-Sarkhan Vol ends up going insane.
-The folks we meet in Grixis end up eaten by zombies.

It was like the author hated the entire block, and decided to take it out on his characters.

Squark

2010-08-17, 06:01 PM

What was In the Teeth of Akoum like? Good? Mediocre? So bad it's horrible?

Lady Tialait

2010-08-17, 06:01 PM

Time Spiral novels made me jealous of Jhoira, more so...

Mirrinus

2010-08-17, 11:07 PM

What was In the Teeth of Akoum like? Good? Mediocre? So bad it's horrible?

Well...from what I've heard, its main problem was that it was inconclusive. Nothing really gets resolved. Well, not for the better, anyway. Which is disappointing, given that it's the only Zendikar novel we know of thus far.

The story is about Nissa seeking to stop the Eldrazi after her tribe gets wiped out by one of them when they just woke up. She's joined by Sorin Markov and Anowan, who guide her to the place where the three Eldrazi titans (Emrakul, Ulamog, and Kozilek) still remain imprisoned. Sorin wants to reinforce the seal on them, but Anowan has his own agenda and tricks Nissa into betraying Sorin, thinking that Sorin wished to condemn Zendikar to the Eldrazi's presence forever. Nissa destroys the titans' seal, believing they'd leave Zendikar once freed. However, Sorin reveals that the hedron matrix he and the other planeswalkers had constructed across Zendikar still keeps the Eldrazi trapped on this plane. The story more or less ends with Sorin planeswalking away while going "Sucks to be you!" as Emrakul, Ulamog, and Kozilek merrily begin destroying all living things. Nissa then leaves Zendikar, vowing to seek out other planeswalkers to return and defeat the Eldrazi.

You know what's another good Magic novel? Chainer's Torment. I remember reading that a long time ago, and it was awesome. Chainer makes a much better main character than Kamahl.

IthilanorStPete

2010-08-17, 11:15 PM

You know what's another good Magic novel? Chainer's Torment. I remember reading that a long time ago, and it was awesome. Chainer makes a much better main character than Kamahl.

I should note that that's the only good book out of the Otaria books. Odyssey and Judgment are pretty bad, and Onslaught, Legion , and Scourge are horrible.

tgva8889

2010-08-18, 01:36 AM

My brother and I decided to go kamakaze-opening some Zendikar in order to get the last two Into the Roils for my Standard deck. We opened two fetches and a Lotus Cobra plus another random Mythic. All in all, good 6 packs to open.

Also, I'm working on Sliver Queen EDH, going for a General KO. So far, the deck's been pretty amusing, although not incredibly broken. I'm still working out some kinks, but if anyone wants to test it eventually, let me know.

Finally, anyone got ideas for a Xykon Archenemy deck? I really do want to get to work on it. Right now, I'm thinking of using lots of cards to store mana and build up mana so that big X spells like Drain Life and Fireball can be played to best effect.

Avaris

2010-08-18, 05:56 AM

Finally, anyone got ideas for a Xykon Archenemy deck? I really do want to get to work on it. Right now, I'm thinking of using lots of cards to store mana and build up mana so that big X spells like Drain Life and Fireball can be played to best effect.

Can't help but feel any Xykon deck has to have a Phylactory lich in it...

I made what was probably one of my best plays ever in a draft last night. 3rd game of a match, and I'm being beaten down by 4 or 5 small dudes, to my pair of 2/3s. Opponent plays a Magma Phoenix, and on my turn I swing in to attack. After much deliberation he blocks... Diminish, Safe Passage. Wipes his board and gives me enough advantage to claw victory back, though I ended the game on 1 life :smallbiggrin:

Cheesegear

2010-08-18, 06:09 AM

But I warn you...I'm a Urza fangirl.

I'm an Urza fangirl. And I'm male. Urza is just that good. :smallwink:
Although, I like Teferi as well.

I also liked the Weatherlight, and her crew. And Karn. Why do you not love Karn?

Also, does anyone have any ideas for a Blue/Red/Black deck?

Blue for counters
Red for burns
Black for removal

Squark

2010-08-18, 06:31 AM

Also, does anyone have any ideas for a Blue/Red/Black deck?

Blue for counters
Red for burns
Black for removal

Ahh, Grixis. Let's see, key cards.

Cruel Ultimatum- Just in case you forgot this card exists
Sphinx of Jwar Isle- Still probably the best blue finisher in standard, simply because of Shroud
Sedraxis Specter- Very useful card
Countersquall- Run it if you want- I prefer Negate for more flexibility
Lightning Bolt- Duh
Calcite Snapper- If you can't find Sedraxis Specter, these can be a suitable replacement
Blightning- A bit weaker now that Obstinate Baloth is in standard, frankly
Mana Leak- See Lightning Bolt
Crumbling Necropolis- See Lightning Bolt

Finally, anyone got ideas for a Xykon Archenemy deck? I really do want to get to work on it. Right now, I'm thinking of using lots of cards to store mana and build up mana so that big X spells like Drain Life and Fireball can be played to best effect.

As far as schemes go-
Rotted Ones Lay Siege
Every Hope Shall Vanish- The guy is known for his mid-combat Hannibal Lectures (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HannibalLecture)
My Undead Horde Awakens
Only Blood Ends your Nightmares
The Dead Shall Serve
Know Naught But Fire
I Delight in your Convulsions

A few others from the Zombie deck and maybe the dragon deck would work. I'm not sure about the Planeswalker scheme, since a :redcloak: pw doesn't exist. I'd stay away from plans that spans centuries, if only because it totally goes against xykon's flavor.

Absolutely NOTHING Involving nature, planning, or intelligence.

IthilanorStPete

2010-08-18, 07:14 AM

Also @ Grixis: Jace, the Mind Sculptor if you can get him. Liliana Vess can also be decent. Destructive Force is a nice finisher, and Grave Titan is really really good.

Squark

2010-08-18, 08:42 AM

Eldariel

2010-08-18, 09:09 AM

I'm an Urza fangirl. And I'm male. Urza is just that good. :smallwink:
Although, I like Teferi as well.

+1 dead puppies

MountainKing

2010-08-18, 09:57 AM

Well yes, but Jace the Mindscupltor is even more obvious than Crumbling Necropolis, Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak, and Cruel Ultimatum. And I'd much rather use Cruel Ultimatum as a game ender than Destructive force. You have not known card advantage until you've dropped all 3 of the cruel ultimatums in your deck in one game, all in a row.

I watched a guy Cruel someone a total of seven times in a single game. He copied it twice after casting it the first time, then after casting it again later he copied it three more times. It was horrible.

Calmar

2010-08-18, 05:42 PM

Artifacts Cycle I is ordered and should arrive by the end of the week. I'm looking forward to it. :smallsmile:

I think I'll post my one good reasonably usable deck tomorrow - Featuring fossil cards from the ancient times of 2003/2004!1! :smallbiggrin:

tgva8889

2010-08-18, 05:54 PM

Can't help but feel any Xykon deck has to have a Phylactory lich in it...

Xykon doesn't have Liches at his disposal, though...

Brother Oni

2010-08-18, 06:23 PM

I think I'll post my one good reasonably usable deck tomorrow - Featuring fossil cards from the ancient times of 2003/2004!1! :smallbiggrin:

That's nothing - I've still got a landkill deck somewhere that dates back to 1995. :smallbiggrin:

I shouldn't have mentioned that. Damn I feel old...

Suedars

2010-08-18, 06:28 PM

Xykon doesn't have Liches at his disposal, though...

Is there a Phylactery Lich vanguard card? That could be a nice inclusion.

Eldariel

2010-08-18, 07:04 PM

Xykon doesn't have Liches at his disposal, though...

There's an old enchantment called Lich (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=666) that's probably more appropriate. And the newer printing in Nefarious Lich (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29952) but as Lich sets your life to 0, I like it more; tons of fun stuff to do with it.

Shas aia Toriia

2010-08-18, 09:51 PM

Personally, I find all the current lich cards to be quite boring. Just saying.

tgva8889

2010-08-18, 10:34 PM

I do as well. As much as Xykon is a Lich, I don't feel that I need a Lich card in his deck. I mean, Xykon is so much more than just a Lich.

Mirrinus

2010-08-19, 01:07 AM

New mechanic for Scars of Mirrodin spoiled!

Infect (This creature deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters and to players in the form of poison counters.)

Such a perfect mechanic for Phyrexia...

memnarch

2010-08-19, 01:32 AM

Wither + Poisonous? :smalleek:Heck yes! :smallcool:

Mirrinus

2010-08-19, 02:09 AM

memnarch

2010-08-19, 02:34 AM

Well, that's true.

I just like the idea of just letting the creature by and letting it by until you've got 8 or 9 counters on them and then they have to start making their creatures smaller and smaller just to keep from dying early.

So while it might be technically better than wither for the block, the block's not going to be here forever.

Brother Oni

2010-08-19, 06:23 AM

The thing is, it's not quite as good as poisonous in one major way. You see, Poisonous still deals damage to the player. This doesn't. So if you're playing creatures that can't poison, having a creature with this new keyword is almost like having 0 power until the 10th counter is dealt.

Actually if you're planning on a poison deck, the new mechanic is much better.

All creatures that give poison counters only give 1 or 2 per attack. Creatures with poisonous give N poison counters per attack damage step.

Creatures with Infect deal damage to players in the form of poison counters, so Giant Growthing that creature will add an additional 3 counters. Fling or Soul's Fire deals the creature's power in poison counters, thus theoretically speaking you've got a faster clock compared to the dual clocks (poison and life) given by older poison creatures.

If you wanted to make poison counters deal damage, there's always Leeches. :smallbiggrin:

Mirrinus

2010-08-19, 10:52 AM

Yes, I'm aware that the new mechanic is better in a Poison deck. However, most decks are, in fact, not Poison decks, especially if you're not playing Block. That's like saying Glacial Ray is better in Arcane decks. Yes, that's true, but how many people played those in competitive standard back when it was legal? The mechanic is still insular in that it has poor synergy with cards outside of its block, which was one of the biggest complaints about Kamigawa block.

The Poisonous mechanic still has one other advantage, in that it stacks if you give the ability multiple times (see Virulent Sliver draft strategy in Time Spiral limited). Infect doesn't stack.

MountainKing

2010-08-19, 12:12 PM

Oh yeah, because Poison Counters... That's... fun... :smallsigh: I just felt my excitement for Scars dip a little.

Bucky

2010-08-19, 01:41 PM

The Poisonous mechanic still has one other advantage, in that it stacks if you give the ability multiple times (see Virulent Sliver draft strategy in Time Spiral limited). Infect doesn't stack.

Err, Virulent Sliver worked because it gave the attacking player multiple creatures with Poisonous, and possibly evasion as well.

Squark

2010-08-19, 02:23 PM

No, 2 virulent slivers give 2 instances of poisonous 1, the same way a creature can get multiple instances of flanking, and they will stack (There was actually a knight lord that gave a second instance flanking to creatures with flanking)

memnarch

2010-08-19, 03:26 PM

I can picture the ability being on creatures like the nim. Low toughness, high power with some sort of evasion.

tgva8889

2010-08-19, 03:45 PM

I think the problem is that, well, Infect doesn't work well with non-Infect. If I am planning to play a lot of creatures with Infect, I can't also plan on playing a lot of creatures that attack that don't have Infect, because I'll just be making it that much harder for myself to kill you. So either my Infect creatures will mostly sit on defense, or my non-Infect creatures will mostly sit on defense.

The other problem is that Mirrodin in the past involved lots of +1/+1 counters. Mixing +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters will get confusing, to say the least. So I hope that they either have tons of both or just one type only.

(Also, the big advantage of Poisonous was, in fact, that it could stack. That's why the Protean Hulk build that involved bringing in 4 of those and a Heart Sliver or something was effective.)

Suedars

2010-08-19, 04:05 PM

The other problem is that Mirrodin in the past involved lots of +1/+1 counters. Mixing +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters will get confusing, to say the least. So I hope that they either have tons of both or just one type only.

I wasn't playing Magic during this period, but wouldn't the same problem have been true in Lorwyn-Shadowmoor Block Constructed?

tgva8889

2010-08-19, 04:09 PM

I wasn't playing Magic during this period, but wouldn't the same problem have been true in Lorwyn-Shadowmoor Block Constructed?

In theory. In reality, few of the cards that made +1/+1 counters were worth playing, and fewer of those actually worked with -1/-1 counters in a way that was actually significant beyond "-1/-1 counters kill that creature" or "exactly enough counters annihilate each other". So +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters mixed very infrequently, if at all. The few times that they did usually involved abusing Persist, which was generally easy to deal with.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-19, 05:18 PM

Squark

2010-08-19, 06:02 PM

The other problem is that Mirrodin in the past involved lots of +1/+1 counters. Mixing +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters will get confusing, to say the least. So I hope that they either have tons of both or just one type only.

Umm, You just need to remember which was on the card at the time- -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters cancel each other out. Slightly annoying, perhaps, but not that bad

Shas aia Toriia

2010-08-19, 06:07 PM

Umm, You just need to remember which was on the card at the time- -1/-1 counters and +1/+1 counters cancel each other out. Slightly annoying, perhaps, but not that bad

You think that's annoying? I love that feature, I don't have to keep worrying about having 10 counters on all my creatures.

Squark

2010-08-19, 07:40 PM

You think that's annoying? I love that feature, I don't have to keep worrying about having 10 counters on all my creatures.

No, I mean remembering whether it's a +1/+1 counter or a -1/-1 counter that's already on the creature could at some times be confusing

tgva8889

2010-08-20, 02:57 AM

No, I mean remembering whether it's a +1/+1 counter or a -1/-1 counter that's already on the creature could at some times be confusing

Replace "sometimes" with "most of the time" or maybe "a lot of the time" and you will understand why Wizards doesn't use counters more often.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-20, 03:20 AM

Replace "sometimes" with "most of the time" or maybe "a lot of the time" and you will understand why Wizards doesn't use counters more often.

I tend to use the same dice for +1/+1 counters as I do for level counters (also loyalty and charge counters, but not on creatures). I've only ever played one game where both kinds of counters were on one creature. It was terrifying.

Completely off topic, I adore your avatar.

tgva8889

2010-08-20, 03:25 AM

The Extinguisher

2010-08-20, 03:30 AM

Also, I never, ever want anyone to even try to put +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters on my Gideon.

Let's just say that this particular moment of my life is very, very happy, and deserves an appropriate avatar.

Oh man, that's absolutely the worst. At least he won't level up as well.

I wonder how many different types of counters we can stick on a single permanent.

:smile:

tgva8889

2010-08-20, 04:21 AM

Charge counters are pretty easy to put on a lot of things. If you were to use, say, Mycosynth Lattice, you could make an animated Gideon into an Arifact, which would let you easily mash some Charge on there. Then, you could use Fate Transfer to move said counters onto something with Level Up. With further Fate Transfers and lots of animation effects (Animate Land, March of the Machines, etc.), you might be able to theoretically get every counter type onto a single creature.

Well, except Poison. :smalltongue:

SoD

2010-08-20, 04:54 AM

Replace "sometimes" with "most of the time" or maybe "a lot of the time" and you will understand why Wizards doesn't use counters more often.

Well, so far, off the the top of my head, we have +1/+1, -1/-1 and all their different options (-0/-1, etc...yes, they exist), level up, charge, poison, divinity, fate, depletion, mining, loyalty, age, fading, and time. I'm sure there's more, but I can't get them off the top of my head.

Squark

2010-08-20, 09:09 AM

I'm considering building a legacy suicide black deck, but I'm on a budget- What cards would you reccomend?

A skeleton of the deck

4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko shade

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Dark Ritual

What else would you reccomend (Sinkhole and Wasteland are out of the question at the moment, sadly)

Penguinizer

2010-08-20, 02:43 PM

I wouldn't run Negator. There's too much burn damage based removal in the format. There's too much of a chance of having your entire board position taken out. It essentially turns any burn spell or even blocking into a 3 for 1 or worse.

As for spells. You want a mix of the following for targetted discard: Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek. Something like 8-10 total.

You also want Dark Confidants, Bitterblossoms and Jittes.

Mirrinus

2010-08-20, 04:06 PM

I've seen Wretched Anurid in some suicide black builds. 3/3 for 2 with a drawback that you probably won't care about too often seems good.

Diabolic Edict for removal looks good too.

tgva8889

2010-08-20, 04:12 PM

Anurid is pretty weak in Legacy, though. When your opponent's 1-drops are 3/3s or combo piece setups, 3/3 for 2 with a drawback is highly unexciting.

Blood Pet may or may not be helpful for accelerating into some discard shenanigans. You are playing a bunch of 3-drops and you can only play so many Rituals.

Penguinizer

2010-08-20, 04:26 PM

Well. What I recommend is looking on Deckcheck for Suicide Black, Monoblack Aggro, Monoblack Control, Pox and The Gate lists . They're all monoblack decks, and are a good thing to get ideas from. They usually have cards in common, it's those cards you probably should play.

However. There is one CARDINAL SCREWUP NONBO FAILURE that you should never ever do. It is 4x Dark confidant and 3-4x Tombstalker in the same deck. It just does not work.

tgva8889

2010-08-20, 04:28 PM

Ah, yes. The "Guess I'll randomly lose 8 life" gambit.

Calmar

2010-08-20, 04:35 PM

Sorry for posting late, but here it is: My zombie deck.

Back when I started playing MtG with a friend in 2003 my intention was to be a very casual player. My goal was to build a nice deck with cool badass fishfolk cards and stick with it. Unfortunately I had less knowledge of the rules, less spare money to spend on boosters, and less internet to check out tipps and strategies and to buy specific cards, than my buddy. My only advantage was a certain shop run by a friendly man who not only sold boosters for a one Euro cheaper than elsewhere, but who also gave me good boosters sometimes - I have no clue how he knew they contained really good cards, but they did!
But all in all I felt myself quite in a disadvantage and lost most of the time with my fun decks full of beautiful cards. Guess the constant defeats turned the game into obsession. In the end I was having about as much fun with MtG as the late Soviet Union had in participating in an arms race... (in addition my buddy really isn't a good winner).

The zombie deck originates from the fact that I happened to get quite lot zombie cards and other good black cards. There's no artistry or nifty strategy in this deck. It's simply brute force. Overrun the enemy with hordes of weak zombies and their secondary abilities, or gather your strength and crush them with the help of the powerful 'leaders'.
The zombie and cleric cards support each other and they can be resurrected in different ways. Yeah.
The two nightmares and Visara the Dreadful are not really connected to the undead in any way, but the horses can obviously become extremely powerful as the game proceeds, and Visara is by far the most powerful card I have. Additionally, Reaping the Graves can bring her back when things got ugly for her.
I like to imagine Visara being the general of the undead host, leading her army into battle on a chariot drawn by the nightmares. :smallsmile:

I know some cards should be included full four times, but the ones listed are simply all of them I have at my disposal. For some odd reason the Lord of the Undead wasn't a zombie back in 8th edition. It's good to see that changed.

The Deck

Creatures
1 Visara the Dreadful (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=39863)
2 Nightmare (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nightmare)
1 Lord of the Undead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?printed=false&multiverseid=83155)
2 Twisted Abomination (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?printed=true&multiverseid=166033)
3 Corpse Harvester (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205419)
2 Skinthinner (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skinthinner)
1 Frightshroud Courier (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?printed=true&multiverseid=167739)
4 Deathmark Prelate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=35249)
4 Severed Legion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45290)
4 Soulless One (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Soulless%20One)
2 Gempalm Polluter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=166743)
3 Infernal Caretaker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?printed=true&multiverseid=166749)
2 Withered Wretch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?printed=true&multiverseid=166759)
2 Vengeful Dead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=166037)
2 Ghastly Remains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?printed=true&multiverseid=42178)

Instants
3 Reaping the Graves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?printed=true&multiverseid=166029)
1 Misery Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=167748)

Sorceries
1 Tendrils of Agony (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tendrils%20of%20agony)

Enchantments
1 Grave Pact (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?printed=true&multiverseid=98562)
3 Clutch of Undeath (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=44264)
1 Dragon Shadow (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=166022)

Lands
24 Swamp

(All the cards I have in this set are 8th Edition and Onslaught block)

Foeofthelance

2010-08-20, 08:09 PM

So running a Worldwake/RoE/2011 draft tomorrow night with about nine players, including myself. The packs are mixed up because Troll and Toad refused my debit card, despite it having more than enough funds, so I had to go retail. (Never again. 3/4 the number of packs of a box, and it was still $10 more.)

Suggestions on how to split them up? Just alternate them around the tables, or have one half draft 2011 with the other half drafting worldwake? Any other special considerations to take into mind?

memnarch

2010-08-20, 09:35 PM

Put them all in a big bag, pass the bag around, people pick one at a time out of the bag without looking in, then draft as normal.

Bucky

2010-08-20, 09:48 PM

Duos

2010-08-20, 10:08 PM

Well, I just got back from a double FNM event, and I'm quite pleased with myself, having gone 3-1 both times and getting 2nd and 4th. I guess nobody expects Kiln Fiend to pop up and rape them in the face for twenty-odd damage in one turn.:smallbiggrin:

Foeofthelance

2010-08-20, 10:26 PM

You can't just give each player one pack of each? Everyone in a draft should have the same packs.

Its 12 packs 2011, 12 packs WW...and 3 Packs WoE.

I think I'm gonna use the bag idea, if only for the sheer ridiculousness.

I'm also dreading someone pulling Double Jaces...

Suedars

2010-08-21, 12:25 AM

Jace isn't all that great in Limited. He's probably only a little better than middle of the pack for Planeswalkers.

tgva8889

2010-08-21, 01:41 AM

Jace isn't all that great in Limited. He's probably only a little better than middle of the pack for Planeswalkers.

Well, considering how you can stack your opponent's deck and defend him with dudes until you Ultimate win...he's still pretty damn good.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-21, 03:27 AM

I don't think they've printed a plansewalker that I wouldn't first pick. They're all really strong in limited. Okay, Chandra Ablaze isn't great, but that's mostly because Zen doesn't have time for 6 mana spells that aren't amazing (read: Sorin Markov)

tgva8889

2010-08-21, 03:29 AM

Chandra Ablaze isn't even good in Limited, unless you happen to have lots of Red spells that you don't want to play and would rather turn into pockets of 4 damage. So, basically, if your deck is terrible.

Let's not even go into the fact that your turn 6 is better spent winning the game in Zendikar Limited.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-21, 03:32 AM

Well, I've never actually opened a Chandra in a Zen limited format, so my statement stills stands.

But lets just ignore this and move on.
I did a 5 man ZZW draft where I was the only one in blue and Jace did wonders for me there.

Malacode

2010-08-21, 07:31 AM

If I saw a planeswalker in a draft pack, I'd pick it just cause it's a money card. It may be off colour, it may not find it's way into a deck, but I'd want to have it so I could, you know... Have it.

Anyone interested in an excercise in deckbuilding, read on.

Okay, I have a desire to play pentagram magic. However, most of my friends who play are -far- more casually minded than I. So I'm building the five decks myself. They'll have to be pretty well balanced considering the skill level of my group. In a one on one game, with players of equal skill, however, the decks aren't balanced. Here's the key to it all: Red beats White, White beats Black, Black beats Green, Green beats Blue and Blue beats Red. Each colour is strong against one foe, and weak against the other, so temporary alliances with allies and enemies are a must. Another important thing is, every deck essentially wins by swinging in with creatures. Red, while mostly burn, has Kiln Fiend and Spitfire. Green has Gaia's Revenge+small things to be pumped with Overwhelming Stampede. Blue has Conundrum Sphinx and Stormtide Leviathan, with a lot of couters and scry effects to make sure they do their job.

I need help with white and black. White will be weenie with creature-based lifegain (Goldenglow Moth and Perimeter Captain would be typical one-drops, maybe Ajani's Pridemate) and Condemn and Oust as removal. Black shall be combo, as Green is aggro, and I think I know the combo: Reassembling Skeleton and Bloodghast as sacrifice outlets to Viscera Seer, Bloodthrone Vampire and Jinxed Idol, with Mordtician Beetle and Pawn of Ulamog along for the ride. What fills out the rest of the decks for each though?
tl;dr: Need help with standard legal mono-White weenie/lifegain deck and mono-Black sacrifice deck.

The Extinguisher

2010-08-21, 07:49 AM

If I saw a planeswalker in a draft pack, I'd pick it just cause it's a money card. It may be off colour, it may not find it's way into a deck, but I'd want to have it so I could, you know... Have it.

I've been mostly doing rare redrafting after my drafts, so the concept of rare drafting is completely weird to me now. I passed on a Fauna Shaman the last "regular" draft I did. Of course, I won that, so take that as you will.

Malacode

2010-08-21, 07:52 AM

You.. Passed... a Shaman? Waaaah, wish I had the confidence to do that. Well, spell confidence with a b, an a, two l's and an s.

Mirrinus

2010-08-21, 11:14 AM

tl;dr: Need help with standard legal mono-White weenie/lifegain deck and mono-Black sacrifice deck.

All right, I'll help out. Off the top of my head, here's what I've got for the W deck:

Creatures:
4 Soul's Attendant
2 Serra Ascendant
4 Lone Missionairy
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 White Knight
3 Emeria Angel

Other Spells:
4 Condemn
3 Brave the Elements
3 Celestial Purge
3 Survival Cache
2 Solemn Offering
1 Marshal's Anthem

Lands:
4 Kazandu Crossroads
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
17 Plains

If Celestial Purge is too strong, replace it with Journey to Nowhere. I refrained from using Kor Firewalker, even though it'd be insanely synergistic with Ajani's Pridemate against a red deck, because you wanted the deck to not crush red. Run Ajani Goldmane and Felidar Sovereign if you have them, too.

Bucky

2010-08-21, 11:34 AM

Well, I've never actually opened a Chandra in a Zen limited format, so my statement stills stands.

I had one in my Sealed deck once. She would have been better as an extra Mountain every time I drew her, because my deck always either won or lost before hitting 4RR.

On the flip side, she pushed me towards a faster build in the first place by forcing me to run Goblin Bushwhackers to get my red permanent count up.

All right, I'll help out. Off the top of my head, here's what I've got for the W deck:

Creatures:
4 Soul's Attendant
2 Serra Ascendant
4 Lone Missionairy
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 White Knight
3 Emeria Angel

Other Spells:
4 Condemn
3 Brave the Elements
3 Celestial Purge
3 Survival Cache
2 Solemn Offering
1 Marshal's Anthem

Lands:
4 Kazandu Crossroads
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
17 Plains

If Celestial Purge is too strong, replace it with Journey to Nowhere. I refrained from using Kor Firewalker, even though it'd be insanely synergistic with Ajani's Pridemate against a red deck, because you wanted the deck to not crush red. Run Ajani Goldmane and Felidar Sovereign if you have them, too.

Have you seen Conley Woods' Nationals deck (http://www.youtube.com/user/wizardsmtg#p/u/12/sXeDXcfLsGQ)? A tuned version of this deck is apparently a strong tier 2.

Suedars

2010-08-21, 12:21 PM

Well, considering how you can stack your opponent's deck and defend him with dudes until you Ultimate win...he's still pretty damn good.

That plan works well when you're ahead on the board, but the problem is that you can't really cast him into a board that you're behind on, since all he has to defend himself is his mediocre -2 bounce that leaves him at 2 counters. Plus fatesealing them for one each turn reduces the chance of them drawing outs, but it doesn't eliminate it. Ordinarily once you stick him and defend him you'd just want to start Brainstorming, but Jace really suffers from a lack of shuffle effects in Limited which change Brainstorm from being pretty good to being amazing.

I don't think they've printed a plansewalker that I wouldn't first pick. They're all really strong in limited. Okay, Chandra Ablaze isn't great, but that's mostly because Zen doesn't have time for 6 mana spells that aren't amazing (read: Sorin Markov)

Nissa is pretty much unplayable garbage, and very few decks can actually run Nicol Bolas. Gideon is good, but arguably passable as well, since White is so weak in RoE. I'd also probably pass little Jace if there were another good card in the pack if Blue weren't the strongest color in both M10 and M11.

Have you seen Conley Woods' Nationals deck? A tuned version of this deck is apparently a strong tier 2.

The thing is, most of Conley's decks are aimed at a certain tournament or metagame. So while it might be excellent at Nationals due to the matchups there, it could be much weaker at your FNM depending on what people are playing. The deck seems to depend on its Soul Wardens as life engines, so if you have a lot of people playing comboish decks like Pyromancer's Ascension or Polymorph it'll be much weaker.

Bucky

2010-08-21, 12:35 PM

That plan works well when you're ahead on the board, but the problem is that you can't really cast him into a board that you're behind on, since all he has to defend himself is his mediocre -2 bounce that leaves him at 2 counters. Plus fatesealing them for one each turn reduces the chance of them drawing outs, but it doesn't eliminate it. Ordinarily once you stick him and defend him you'd just want to start Brainstorming, but Jace really suffers from a lack of shuffle effects in Limited which change Brainstorm from being pretty good to being amazing.

Even on a board where your opponent is slightly ahead, bouncing their 'extra' creature twice and then Brainstorming once before absorbing an attack is a massive tempo swing. Even if you're horribly behind you didn't have many outs anyway and he takes one for the team better than most 4-mana chumps (thanks to added value of bounce/brainstorm).

Nissa is pretty much unplayable garbage, and very few decks can actually run Nicol Bolas. Gideon is good, but arguably passable as well, since White is so weak in RoE. I'd also probably pass little Jace if there were another good card in the pack if Blue weren't the strongest color in both M10 and M11.
Nissa in ZZZ gives red-based decks a lot of trouble, if you manage to pick up at least 2 Chosen (easy enough in draft, less likely in sealed). If you don't, then yeah, unplayable garbage.

The thing is, most of Conley's decks are aimed at a certain tournament or metagame. So while it might be excellent at Nationals due to the matchups there, it could be much weaker at your FNM depending on what people are playing. The deck seems to depend on its Soul Wardens as life engines, so if you have a lot of people playing comboish decks like Pyromancer's Ascension or Polymorph it'll be much weaker.
That's pretty close to my definition of a Tier 2 deck, yes.

Suedars

2010-08-21, 12:51 PM

Even on a board where your opponent is slightly ahead, bouncing their 'extra' creature twice and then Brainstorming once before absorbing an attack is a massive tempo swing. Even if you're horribly behind you didn't have many outs anyway and he takes one for the team better than most 4-mana chumps (thanks to added value of bounce/brainstorm).

That's assuming that they don't have any evasion/removal/haste/falter effects, nor do they draw into it (keep in mind that ZZW features an unusually high amount of all of the above and also features a number of excellent one drops that aggressive decks can use to get a huge lead on boardstate). And given that you're generally going to be first picking him, comparing him to a 4-mana chump isn't exactly fair. Usually it's either him or a bomb, premium removal, or an excellent evasive guy.

Nissa in ZZZ gives red-based decks a lot of trouble, if you manage to pick up at least 2 Chosen (easy enough in draft, less likely in sealed). If you don't, then yeah, unplayable garbage.

How? By committing you heavily to the clear worst color in the format and tutoring up 2/3s that die to most of Red's removal, are both outraced and outclassed by Red's dudes and giving you no way to stop a lethal Valakut/Spire Barrage? The most common scenario for Nissa vs. Red has her being a 4 mana Nissa's chosen that prevents 3 damage to you. You +1 out an elf, and they swing at her with a Boar.

That's pretty close to my definition of a Tier 2 deck, yes.

The difference between Conley's decks and Tier 2 decks is that Tier 2 decks are generally a part of the metagame and are usually built around to a degree. RDW for example, is a Tier 2 deck and sees a good deal of sideboard hate. Conley's decks are one-offs that are easily hated out if opponents build for them, but since they can't for a number of reasons, are much more effective in their format than they would normally be. Because they usually feature numerous bad matchups that might be part of a format as a whole, but not much of the format in their tournament, and can be combatted by the Tier 1 decks given adequate preparation I'd probably classify them as Tier 3 (though they're able to function outside of Tiers in the short term).

Foeofthelance

2010-08-21, 03:53 PM

What's the best way to mana balance a five color, mana heavy deck without relying on green land fetch?

Suedars

2010-08-21, 04:37 PM

That varies on format, budget, and the deck's makeup.

Mirrinus

2010-08-21, 05:40 PM

What's the best way to mana balance a five color, mana heavy deck without relying on green land fetch?

I say Vivid lands, Reflecting Pool, and other lands that can provide most of your colors. The whole ETB tapped hurts, though. Artifacts that produce colored mana (Coalition Relic, etc.) work well too.

Take a look at 5-color control decks from about a year ago in Standard. They didn't usually bother with green mana fixing, instead getting all their colors from their crazy land base.

Suedars

2010-08-21, 05:48 PM

I say Vivid lands, Reflecting Pool, and other lands that can provide most of your colors. The whole ETB tapped hurts, though. Artifacts that produce colored mana (Coalition Relic, etc.) work well too.

Take a look at 5-color control decks from about a year ago in Standard. They didn't usually bother with green mana fixing, instead getting all their colors from their crazy land base.

This is where the deck matters though. In a slow 5 color deck you can easily manage running 20 taplands, but if you're running any sort of 5 color agro or even midrange, that's generally too big of a drawback to manage.

Squark

2010-08-21, 06:35 PM

It depends on your deck- On a budget, city of brass and ancient ziggurat can both be excellent, since they both come into play untapped. However, a very slow deck could be hurt by City of Brass's constant pining, and Ancient Ziggurat's inability to be used for anything but casting a creature.

Suedars

2010-08-21, 07:56 PM

Random question here: Does anyone know of a way to get Mirror Sigil Sergeant going in a mono-white EDH deck?

Mirrinus

2010-08-21, 08:10 PM

Random question here: Does anyone know of a way to get Mirror Sigil Sergeant going in a mono-white EDH deck?

Painter's Servant, name blue. First thing to come to mind.

Or, take a blue creature from another player (via Evangelize and the like).

Narkis

2010-08-21, 09:24 PM

Transguild Courier (http://magiccards.info/di/en/168.html). Painter's Servant is banned from EDH due to its interaction with Iona and the ease of locking everyone out of the game just with a Tooth and Nail.

Suedars

2010-08-21, 09:29 PM

Painter's Servant is on the banned list, plus I'm running a bunch of Crusade effects, so it's out. I've been thinking about running Evangelize, so that might make Mirror Sigil worth it. I'll have to try it.

tgva8889

2010-08-22, 08:39 PM

Random question here: Does anyone know of a way to get Mirror Sigil Sergeant going in a mono-white EDH deck?

Depending on the General, Helm of Possession may work for stealing a target creature that happens to be Blue. Besides that...pray your opponent is playing Bluelace? Honestly, the effort probably isn't worth it. You want a source of infinite dudes, play something else. White has lots of options, from Storm Herd to Pegasus Mesa to Mobilization to Kjeldoran Outpost...I mean, you can even play something like Serra Avatar or Eternal Dragon if that's what you're looking for. I dunno, the effort to get Mirror-Sigil Sergeant to work in Mono-White is not worth it. Try playing a different deck if you really want that sort of effect.

Brother Oni

2010-08-22, 08:59 PM

Mono-white EDH decks don't permit hybrid U/W mana cost creatures like Zealous Guardian?

I'm not familiar with EDH deck construction rules, sorry.

Mirrinus

2010-08-22, 09:03 PM

Mono-white EDH decks don't permit hybrid U/W mana cost creatures like Zealous Guardian?

I'm not familiar with EDH deck construction rules, sorry.

EDH rules prevent you from playing any cards with colored mana symbols of colors not shared with your general. This includes colors from hybrid costs.

memnarch

2010-08-22, 11:56 PM

Wow. Just wow. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/105) How many other people admit to thinking it was an old article?

SoD

2010-08-23, 02:29 AM

Mono-white EDH decks don't permit hybrid U/W mana cost creatures like Zealous Guardian?

I'm not familiar with EDH deck construction rules, sorry.

No mana symbols outside your generals colours anywhere on the card. This includes activation costs, mana costs, everything. Thus you can play a Bird of Paradise (add one mana of any colour) but not a druid of the anima (add G, R, or W). You cannot play Rhys the Exiled in a mono-green deck because of the black symbol on him. He cannot be your general, as the symbol is outside his own colours.

In a nutshell.

Gauntlet

2010-08-23, 09:17 AM

I've been looking through a few card stores, and it looks like I should be able to come up with a 'Megrim' (with no Megrims) deck on the cheap. Here's what I put together:

4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Nyxathid

4 Blightning
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Diabolic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Liliana's Caress
4 Quest for the Nihil Stone
4 Sign in Blood
4 Terminate
2 Thought Hemorrhage

4 Dragonskull Summit
7 Mountain
9 Swamp

I already have the Terminates and Blightnings around from previous decks. Other cards I previously considered putting in are Bloodchief Ascension (but it probably wouldn't activate before about turn 5, though it would be excellent in multiplayer) and Doom Blade. Lightning Bolt might also work, to speed up the Ascension.

Any thoughts/suggestions?

MountainKing

2010-08-23, 09:37 AM

Hate to break it to you, Gauntlet, but I have a feeling that you're not going to see a whole lot of success with that deck. It might be fun to play, but you're packing four removals with six creatures, and a bunch of cards that knock out one or two cards. You might be able to swing it, but I don't think it has enough oomph.

But then, I'm an Extended/Legacy/whatever player, and I'm spoiled by things like Blue/Black Ravnica/Shadowmoor. :smallbiggrin:

Penguinizer

2010-08-23, 10:09 AM

I don't think I could ever play a black deck without having 4x Hymn to Tourach, 3-4x Diabolic Edict, 4x Thoughtseize, 4x Duress, 4x Dark Ritual and 4x Dark Confidant. Except in pauper. Barely.

Mirrinus

2010-08-23, 11:29 AM

Well, it looks like Gauntlet's playing Standard, so the deck should be judged on an entirely different power curve.

It's true that you'll probably need either more creatures or more removal, particularly creatures that fit with your discard theme. I'd run Slavering Nulls, another aggressive creature that comes down faster than your other ones. Liliana's Spectre is also not bad, if you're playing multiplayer. Since you're running relatively few creatures, you're probably going to lose creature battles more easily than control battles. Might want to swap out Duress for Inquisition of Kozilek, just to hit early creatures and prevent you from getting stomped on the early turns.

But before you do any of that, you're going to have to fix your land/mana ratio. Right now, you're at 20/40, which is absolutely horrible. 20 lands is how much I run in decks with nothing that costs over 2 mana. For your deck, you'll need a minimum of 23 lands, if not 24. I'd drop Thought Hemorrhage (good card, but more of a sideboard choice than maindeck), Diabolic Tutor (way too slow), and maybe a few of the Burning Inquiries (dead card unless you've got Caress/need counters on Nihil Stone).

Squark

2010-08-23, 11:38 AM

^It's a little more complicated than that, but Yes, his count is a bit low. More like ~22 (Land ratio can also change depending on the amount of draw power you have- Legacy decks packing large numbers of cantrips can severely shave their land ratio- Most don't run over 20, and some go as low as 12, although those tend to be combos that don't need to make more than 2 land drops)

I would throw in Bolts or doom blades, relegate Thought Hemorrhage to the sideboard, and cut Quest for the Nihl Stone- It's much less reliable than the rack, even if it is a fairly fast clock.

Also, you need some way of dealing with leyline of sanctity :smallyuk:
DIE STUPID CARD, DIE!

Gauntlet

2010-08-23, 01:48 PM

I guess I'm spoiled by the decks I usually play against- most of them are either control or slower beatdown tecks which don't really get going in the early turns. I also play a lot of multiplayer (FFA, 2HG and Emperor).

I had Slavering Nulls in an older build, but figured that a 2/1 with no evasion wasn't very likely to connect with an enemy player. I guess at worst I get a 1 for 1 trade, or a blocking minion.

The problem I have with dropping Diabolic Tutor and Quest for the Nihil stone is that if I do so, I basically can't win unless I luck into a Liliana's Caress. With Quest I have an alternate way of doing some decent damage, and Tutor gives me a better chance to get what I need.

4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Slavering Nulls
2 Nyxthalid

4 Blightning
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Doom Blade
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana's Caress
4 Sign in Blood
4 Terminate

4 Dragonskull Summit
8 Mountain
10 Swamp

Quayleman

2010-08-23, 02:30 PM

you could always just add megrims to that there megrim deck...

and I would go with some sort of burn over terminate. Still kills early drops, or can be pointed at your opponents dome

Squark

2010-08-23, 02:33 PM

I would actually go with bolt over terminate, since Bolt can go for that last few points of damage.

SoD

2010-08-23, 05:11 PM

Holy Memoricide (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=259374), batman! It's like a thought hemmorage on crack!

IthilanorStPete

2010-08-23, 05:13 PM

It's Cranial Extraction, except not Arcane. Not something worth getting so excited over.

Suedars

2010-08-23, 05:20 PM

It's pretty boring for a buy a box promo. Sideboard fodder that's a near reprint of a card from years ago? If they were going the nostalgia route they could have at least reprinted something from Mirrodin.

Squark

2010-08-23, 05:54 PM

*reads linked thread* Hey... Venser's back! Yes! Called it!

tgva8889

2010-08-23, 08:41 PM

It's Cranial Extraction, except not Arcane. Not something worth getting so excited over.

Actually...that is something to get excited about. Because Memoricide can, and likely will, be appearing in a base set near you. Probably M12, because Wizards hates actually coming up with useful cards to put into base set slots. Yes I'm still bitter about Day of Judgment.

Slavering Nulls is terrible. It gets blocked all day long by creatures that are infinitely better than it. 2/1 is really just terrible almost all the time.

Penguinizer

2010-08-24, 06:08 AM

Memoricide is pretty unexiting. Remember how much play Cranial Extraction sees? Oh wait...

I was hoping for the buy a box promo being at least a Sword or something.

Mirrinus

2010-08-24, 09:56 AM

Memoricide is pretty unexiting. Remember how much play Cranial Extraction sees? Oh wait...

Cards like Cranial Extraction and the like are very metagame dependant. They see plenty of play if combo decks like Heartbeat of Spring or Seismic Swans are popular, but I don't think we have a major combo deck right now in Standard. It's good to have this card for Extended now that Kamigawa is gone, anyway. There's no super-strong combo deck right now, but this card is necessary as a safety precaution in case SoM throws us one.

Penguinizer

2010-08-24, 11:14 AM

Suedars

2010-08-24, 12:37 PM

Even with how obscenely strong combo was in the old extended. It was never played. Seismic Swans has better answers against it, as do most 2-card combos. Storm is hardly going to get a reprint either.

It saw some play in Standard and Block back when it was first printed. And some decks ran 2 or so in their sideboard in Extended. What confuses me with its printing though is that Wizards has pretty much said that they're trying to phase linear combo out of Standard. With that in mind, I don't see why this needs to be printed.

Quayleman

2010-08-24, 12:48 PM

It saw some play in Standard and Block back when it was first printed. And some decks ran 2 or so in their sideboard in Extended. What confuses me with its printing though is that Wizards has pretty much said that they're trying to phase linear combo out of Standard. With that in mind, I don't see why this needs to be printed.

Vengevine.

Suedars

2010-08-24, 12:56 PM

Vengevine.

Not really worth hating. Jund could run Thought Hemorrhages in the board if it wanted to deal with it, but nobody does.

Eldrys

2010-08-24, 05:31 PM

tgva8889

2010-08-24, 06:07 PM

Not really worth hating. Jund could run Thought Hemorrhages in the board if it wanted to deal with it, but nobody does.

That's because Jund doesn't care so much about Vengevines, or at least not enough to spend 4 mana on a card that doesn't advance their board position enough for it to matter.

A Black Control deck, however, might need Memoricide to deal with such a card advantage engine as Vengevines. I mean, that's part of why Identity Crisis was/is so good. So, having the card available is useful.

Zocelot

2010-08-24, 07:46 PM

Hey everyone, I'm really knew to magic the gathering and was just wondering if people could tell me how my deck is (this is for noncompetitive duels)

Creatures
1x Stormfront Pegasus
2x Ajani's Pridemate
2x Lone Missionary
3x Soul Warden
1x Soul's Attendant
1x Angelic Arbiter
1x Palace Guard
1x Wall of Frost
1x Wind Zendikon
1x Vengeful Archon
1x Perimeter Captain
1x Guardian Zendikon
1x Caravan Escort
1x Ikiral Outrider
4x Serra Angel
1x Kabira Vindacator

Other Spells
2x Unsommon
1x Demystify
1x Righteousness
2x Armored Ascension
1x Repel the Darkness
1x Quiet Purity
2x Ajani's Mantra
2x Pacifism
1x Holy Day

Land
1x New Benalia
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Soaring Seacliff
1x Cloudcrest Lake
1x Seaside Citadael

I suggest you cut the blue, none of them are very consistent, but you'll get mana screwed more often if you're in two colours. I also recommend against cards like Demystify, that may or may not have a target in any match and so are dead. As you may have heard, consistency is good. Using playsets of a card makes your deck better. If you decide to use playsets, you should decide on a direction for the deck. A lifegain deck focusing on Ajani's Pridemate, Soul Warden, Soul's Attendant, and Survival Cache, preferably with Serra Ascendant, Felidar Sovereign, and Ajani Goldmane is an interesting spin on typical White Weenie.

Suedars

2010-08-24, 08:42 PM

That's because Jund doesn't care so much about Vengevines, or at least not enough to spend 4 mana on a card that doesn't advance their board position enough for it to matter.

That's the point. It doesn't effect the board at all. Even if you pull their Vengevines it doesn't affect the board at all. If they've got a Vengevine on board it doesn't stop that. Nor does it stop any of their other threats. Cranial Extraction was good against combo because a resolved Cranial Extraction completely neutered combo decks. A resolved Memoricide just turns off a card advantage engine, while costing you a huge amount of tempo. You answer their Vengevine recursion, but fall behind on the board and open yourself up to other threats.

Plus in control decks, opposing card advantage engines become irrelevant if you can make it to stage 3, since not only do you have plenty of card advantage of your own, but you just have stronger cards. Memoricide keeps you in your vulnerable stage 2 longer, which is where Vengevine decks thrive and want you to be. It even threatens to let them reach their stage 3 by dropping your life to the point that you now have to throw away cards just to stop from dying, and turning all their burn into lethal draws.

memnarch

2010-08-24, 08:57 PM

That's the point. It doesn't effect the board at all. Even if you pull their Vengevines it doesn't affect the board at all. If they've got a Vengevine on board it doesn't stop that. Nor does it stop any of their other threats. Cranial Extraction was good against combo because a resolved Cranial Extraction completely neutered combo decks. A resolved Memoricide just turns off a card advantage engine, while costing you a huge amount of tempo. You answer their Vengevine recursion, but fall behind on the board and open yourself up to other threats.....

Aren't they exactly the same excepting the arcane bit? :smallconfused:

Suedars

2010-08-24, 09:19 PM

The card is the same, but the decks that they're facing aren't. There hasn't been a true combo deck in Standard for over a year. If combo suddenly becomes big again, then Memoricide will become quite good.

tgva8889

2010-08-24, 11:01 PM

Eldrys

2010-08-24, 11:26 PM

I suggest you cut the blue, none of them are very consistent, but you'll get mana screwed more often if you're in two colours. I also recommend against cards like Demystify, that may or may not have a target in any match and so are dead. As you may have heard, consistency is good. Using playsets of a card makes your deck better. If you decide to use playsets, you should decide on a direction for the deck. A lifegain deck focusing on Ajani's Pridemate, Soul Warden, Soul's Attendant, and Survival Cache, preferably with Serra Ascendant, Felidar Sovereign, and Ajani Goldmane is an interesting spin on typical White Weenie.

Thank you so much for the feedback. I don't buy too many cards so I didn't even know any of the cards you listed that weren't in my deck existed. I shall now hole up for the next 24 hours and create for myself the most awesome theoretical MtG deck I can using the same basic strategy as my current deck!

EDIT: On Demystify and other such cards in my deck, is there some sort of alternative I can get? I get what you're saying about the consistency of use, but if I didn't have those cards I could really get screwed if my opponent had any sort of good enchantment. Would War Preist of Thune work? Are there any other good cards that replicate Cancle and the like?

Suedars

2010-08-25, 12:03 AM

Well, Memoricide may be a necessary answer for a Black control deck that just can't beat Vengevine card advantage. I mean, if you think about it, the Fauna Shaman Vengevine decks are probably going to need some help from Scars, otherwise they're going to be based solely on Vengevines for victory. The current builds either have lots of trouble winning without Vengevines or lose all their other significant win conditions. A Memoricide might be right in that matchup. Most likely not, for the reasons you've mentioned, but it's possible.

It's all pretty speculative at this point. Just about every deck that currently runs Vengevine is going to be eviscerated by the rotation, Black is currently the overwhelmingly weakest color in Standard, and there aren't any real Black control decks at the moment. Whether Black control or even Vengevine see much of an impact in Scars is pretty hard to tell at the moment. I'm still doubtful that Memoricide is good or needed against Vengevine though.

At the very least, it certainly means Memoricide is showing up in M12. Yes, I am bitter.

I'd welcome it if it meant that Haunting Echoes went away forever.

EDIT: On Demystify and other such cards in my deck, is there some sort of alternative I can get? I get what you're saying about the consistency of use, but if I didn't have those cards I could really get screwed if my opponent had any sort of good enchantment. Would War Preist of Thune work? Are there any other good cards that replicate Cancle and the like?

War Priest of Thune would generally be much better. Mana Leak is a nice alternative to Cancel that isn't as harsh on your mana base, but it is weaker late game.

Also, getting screwed by the occasional odd strategy is something you just have to accept if you're playing without sideboards (and even to a lesser degree with sideboards). You can't prepare for every possibility without watering your deck down to the point of uselessness. War Priest is a nice way to get around that though, since it's a disenchant that comes attached to a relevant creature.

MountainKing

2010-08-25, 10:47 AM

War Priest is a nice way to get around that though, since it's a disenchant that comes attached to a relevant creature.

Well, no, it's a Demystify attached to a creature. :smalltongue: Honestly, I'd run actual Disenchants over War Priest, unless I happen to be in a situation where artifacts aren't as big a deal as enchantments. If the opposite is true, and you're seeing a ton of enchantments, then yeah, the Warpriest is tasty good.

tgva8889

2010-08-25, 01:43 PM

I'd welcome it if it meant that Haunting Echoes went away forever.

See, I like Haunting Echoes. I really do wish it were more playable. Unfortunately, it costs 5 and, like Memoricide, doesn't affect the board state.

Suedars

2010-08-25, 03:18 PM

See, I like Haunting Echoes. I really do wish it were more playable. Unfortunately, it costs 5 and, like Memoricide, doesn't affect the board state.

I'm not a fan. It's like they looked at Extirpate and decided to make it more Timmytastic and rendered it unplayable. They should be designing big splashy Sorceries and fatties for Timmy, not very specific sideboard hate cards.

IthilanorStPete

2010-08-25, 04:00 PM

I'm not a fan. It's like they looked at Extirpate and decided to make it more Timmytastic and rendered it unplayable. They should be designing big splashy Sorceries and fatties for Timmy, not very specific sideboard hate cards.

...Haunting Echoes was a reprint. They first printed it back in Odyssey.

tgva8889

2010-08-25, 04:04 PM

...Haunting Echoes was a reprint. They first printed it back in Odyssey.

Yeah. In actuality, they took Haunting Echoes and made it more surgical and less game-breaking and made Extirpate.

Suedars

2010-08-25, 06:54 PM

Apparently I need to use Gatherer more.

tgva8889

2010-08-25, 07:44 PM

Haunting Echoes would totally be playable if there weren't 3 cards that made playing Mill nearly impossible as a dedicated strategy.

Narkis

2010-08-25, 09:01 PM

tgva8889

2010-08-25, 09:07 PM

What, you mean the Eldrazi? They're really not a problem right now. Not since the reprinting of Leyline of the Void. A playset of those babies in your sb, and you never have to fear about pesky elder gods and their graveyard shuffling ability.

I do still have to fear their graveyard shuffling ability if I haven't started the game with a Leyline in play. If I don't, I'll have to worry about spending turn 4 putting a Leyline into play while my opponent accelerates out an Eldrazi. Since that's really the only deck anyone plays them in.

Also, I'm not sure the mill is powerful enough. Besides Hedron Crab, there's only Archive Trap, which while totally awesome these days might not be quite worth the cost against some decks, and Tome Scour. Erasure is too slow, and none of the others are effective or will be legal upon rotation.

Suedars

2010-08-25, 09:27 PM

If I don't, I'll have to worry about spending turn 4 putting a Leyline into play while my opponent accelerates out an Eldrazi. Since that's really the only deck anyone plays them in.

Not to mention that if there ever does become a decent mill deck, one of the Eldrazi as a one-of will be quite common in most decks' boards.

Mirrinus

2010-08-25, 10:08 PM

Been playing around with a budget UR Pyromancer Ascension deck for Standard lately, here's what it looks like:

Enchantments:
4 Pyromancer Ascension

Sorceries:
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Call to Mind
4 Earthquake

Instants:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Into the Roil
2 Redirect
4 Staggershock

Land:
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Halimar Depths
8 Island
6 Mountain

Time Warp is too slow and expensive (and is rotating out soon anyway), so I wanted to just focus on burning out my opponent. With an active Ascension, it's very easy to burn through 20 life with ease. For example, yesterday I had a game against a guy playing WUB control with Jaces and Titans. I got out the Ascension, but my opponent plays Oblivion Ring. I play Staggershock in response, and my opponent counters it. I just draw and pass on my next turn with 6 lands and an empty board. My opponent taps out for Grave Titan, so I play an unkicked Into the Roil on the Oblivion Ring, getting back my Ascension. Then I play Staggershock, bringing my opponent to 18 and giving me a quest counter. On my upkeep, Rebound fires off Staggershock again, for a second quest counter. I then play double Lightning Bolt followed by Earthquake, burning out all of my opponent's life (and his entire board) with ease.

I'm having lots of fun with this deck, but I'm still wondering how I ought to adapt this to the new Standard once M10 rotates out in a little while. Crumbling Necropolis can be replaced by Terramorphic Expanse, and Treasure Hunt will probably replace Ponder. However, what should I use in place of Earthquake? Chain Reaction and Pyroclasm can't hurt players, Forked Bolt is good but kind of weak in terms of damage, and Comet Storm just costs too much mana for the damage it does. Besides other burn spells, I've also been considering Reverberate, but that would require tweaking the lands a bit to hit the RR cost. Which do you guys think is the best choice for this slot?

tgva8889

2010-08-25, 10:26 PM

You could just wait and see if you get a suitable replacement in Scars. I feel like you almost certainly will.

Treasure hunt is so terrible it hurts in that deck. I've played, it's just so bad it's not even worth it. Play See Beyond. It's much, much better. Even maindeck Spreading Seas would be a better choice in my opinion.

I dunno if I like 4 Call to Mind, since I personally find them way too expensive when I play the deck. I dunno how well they've been working for you, though. I would think Burst Lightning would just be better.

Suedars

2010-08-25, 10:31 PM

What are the Redirects in there for? It seems like they might be better suited for the board, since it's not like you'll be regularly Redirecting removal away from your creatures.

Mirrinus

2010-08-25, 10:53 PM

Treasure hunt is so terrible it hurts in that deck. I've played, it's just so bad it's not even worth it. Play See Beyond. It's much, much better. Even maindeck Spreading Seas would be a better choice in my opinion.

I dunno if I like 4 Call to Mind, since I personally find them way too expensive when I play the deck. I dunno how well they've been working for you, though. I would think Burst Lightning would just be better.

I might try out See Beyond, but I don't like how it only gives card parity, shuffling cards back into my deck sucks when I want them in my graveyard, and I rarely have dead cards to shuffle back anyway. Treasure Hunt has synergy with Preordain and Halimar Depths, at least. Spreading Seas is a strictly sideboard card, especially once Jund rotates.

Call to Mind serves the same role as Naya Charm does for the 4-color version of the deck, and has been working really well for me so far. Two copies can easily charge up an Ascension on their own, and once Ascension is active, casting Call to Mind is usually GG (often getting back double Lightning Bolt for 12 damage). I don't like Burst Lightning, as I think I'd rather run Forked Bolt over it.

What are the Redirects in there for? It seems like they might be better suited for the board, since it's not like you'll be regularly Redirecting removal away from your creatures.

I play this deck often for 2HG, and Redirect is one of the coolest cards for that format. That's actually why I'm also considering running Reverberate. Aside from that, though, Redirect is crazy fun against Blightning, Sign in Blood, and all manner of burn. Swerve has always been one of my favorite cards ever since it was printed, and Redirect is even better.

tgva8889

2010-08-25, 11:34 PM

I played the other version with Time Warps, and drawing Call to Mind when you weren't already winning the game was just terrible. Having Burst Lightning was very helpful, as being able to kick it late game or spend it early game on a creature is helpful.

Treasure Hunt was only worth more than 1 card if you were already winning the game. In which case...you just got 6 lands and a spell, which is still terrible, more so than any of your other spells and definitely more so than drawing 2 cards and shuffling two cards back with See Beyond. Like that Call to Mind that you can't cast along with enough burn to win the game, which has happened on far too many occasions to me.

Spreading Seas is a free card that makes you not lose to manlands. Since everyone's going to be playing them anyways, it seems like it might be a fine plan to play maindeck. It's not going to be much better than Treasure Hunt most of the time.

Suedars

2010-08-26, 01:18 AM

I play this deck often for 2HG, and Redirect is one of the coolest cards for that format. That's actually why I'm also considering running Reverberate. Aside from that, though, Redirect is crazy fun against Blightning, Sign in Blood, and all manner of burn. Swerve has always been one of my favorite cards ever since it was printed, and Redirect is even better.

Does your playgroup allow for sideboards? If so, you might be better off moving it in there, and bringing it in when you're playing 2HG or against a deck running Blightning. There's a lot of decks where it's a dead draw, especially since you don't run creatures.

Narkis

2010-08-26, 06:18 AM

I do still have to fear their graveyard shuffling ability if I haven't started the game with a Leyline in play. If I don't, I'll have to worry about spending turn 4 putting a Leyline into play while my opponent accelerates out an Eldrazi. Since that's really the only deck anyone plays them in.

Also, I'm not sure the mill is powerful enough. Besides Hedron Crab, there's only Archive Trap, which while totally awesome these days might not be quite worth the cost against some decks, and Tome Scour. Erasure is too slow, and none of the others are effective or will be legal upon rotation.

Yeah, but Leyline singlehandedly improves the matchup from "unbeatable" to "better than a coin-toss" if you mull to your hate cards. If the mill deck is good enough, that is, and I agree that mill is currently not nearly powerful enough. So Haunting Echoes is unplayable anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Squark

2010-08-26, 07:44 AM

Also, haunting echoes is useless with the leyline, since there will never be any cards in their graveyard, so it can't surgically remove most of their deck.

Duos

2010-08-27, 11:51 AM

Greetings from Towson, guys.

I just moved into college down in Maryland, and while still stressed about the whole, you know, college thing, I am greatly relieved to discover there's a gaming shop within walking distance.

Literally, walking distance. Four minutes tops.

I'm going to be attending my first FNM event outside of CT there tonight. Hopefully it's not filled with really, really, good players like the one I used to go to was, because I'm tired of finishing fifth every dang Friday.

tgva8889

2010-08-27, 02:38 PM

Where'd you used to play, Duos? I'm a CT resident as well.

Androgeus

2010-08-27, 02:47 PM

Anyone else seen the new artifact from SoM that has debuted in latest duel deck? (Elspeth vs. Tezzeret duel deck if ya didn't know (it's in Tezz's deck obviously)). Seems pretty cool, comes with a new keyword (I think). Pic of it in spoiler.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=109890&stc=1&d=1282872095

memnarch

2010-08-27, 02:52 PM

Yup, that's a new ability.

tgva8889

2010-08-27, 03:30 PM

Propogate seems like a pretty awesome keyword action. Let's add to the short list!

Edit: Psychogenic Probe is awesome in Darien, King of Kjeldor EDH. Making Journeyer's Kite even better? Score! I love getting guys for doing things I was going to do anyways.

Duos

2010-08-27, 04:32 PM

Where'd you used to play, Duos? I'm a CT resident as well.

I am (or, well, was) a regular at Card Empire, in Torrington. Pretty nice place, and I'm extra sad to leave because they recently started doing double FNM events on Fridays.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-27, 05:20 PM

My response to the infect ability

"what" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat)

tgva8889

2010-08-27, 05:38 PM

I am (or, well, was) a regular at Card Empire, in Torrington. Pretty nice place, and I'm extra sad to leave because they recently started doing double FNM events on Fridays.

Ah, I'm pretty far South of that, then. Closest shops to me are in Westport.

Also, Infect seems more and more interesting. Proliferate means some Poison Counter action may be headed our way.

Suedars

2010-08-27, 05:42 PM

Pretty sure I'm going to take a fire axe to the first EDH game I play after Scars of Mirrodin comes out, just in case I run into that guy, the one who runs the Black Myojin and Contagion Clasp.

tgva8889

2010-08-27, 05:45 PM

Pretty sure I'm going to take a fire axe to the first EDH game I play after Scars of Mirrodin comes out, just in case I run into that guy, the one who runs the Black Myojin and Contagion Clasp.

That doesn't work, unless he happens to get lucky. Myojins only get the Divinity Counter if you played them from your hand, so he'd have to draw/tutor for both if he wanted to ensure it.

And since this could be done before with an artifact that cost just about as much to use (That Which Was Taken), it's probably about as likely for you to encounter it now as it will be after the Clasp comes out.

I'd be more worried about what Proliferate does to Doubling Season decks, or Experiment Kraj decks.

Suedars

2010-08-27, 05:54 PM

That doesn't work, unless he happens to get lucky. Myojins only get the Divinity Counter if you played them from your hand, so he'd have to draw/tutor for both if he wanted to ensure it.

And since this could be done before with an artifact that cost just about as much to use (That Which Was Taken), it's probably about as likely for you to encounter it now as it will be after the Clasp comes out.

I'd be more worried about what Proliferate does to Doubling Season decks, or Experiment Kraj decks.

I didn't know about That Which Was Taken, though I suppose Clasp will highlight it a bit. And it's not too terribly difficult to get both, especially since most monoblack EDH decks are running anywhere from 3-6 tutors.

memnarch

2010-08-27, 06:38 PM

I didn't know about That Which Was Taken, though I suppose Clasp will highlight it a bit. And it's not too terribly difficult to get both, especially since most monoblack EDH decks are running anywhere from 3-6 tutors.

There's really no point to use it with That Which Was Taken, unless the Myojins have a nice effect to repeat.

tgva8889

2010-08-27, 07:06 PM

Suedars

2010-08-27, 07:31 PM

There are much better things to do in Mono-Black with tutors. Like get Cabal Coffers and generate enough mana to go to the face with Consume Spirit-type effects. Or...get Cabal Coffers and generate enough mana to play Emrakul/Kozilek/Ulamog and win. Or...get Cabal Coffers to do just about whatever you want. I mean, you're making that much mana.

Also, 6 out of 99 cards to find 2 different specific cards isn't that much, when you think about it.

Well, it's 8 out of 99 cards, then there's also the alarming rate that EDH decks (especially Black EDH decks) can draw cards. Plus Consume Spirit only kills one person, and Kozilek/Ulamog likely won't kill anyone before being dealt with. And wiping every opponent's hands once per turn at instant speed is pretty sweet. It might not be the best thing you can do, but EDH isn't really about finding the deck/play that has the highest win % and doing nothing but that.

Besides, something doesn't have to be good to be massively unfun and hated. Slaver locking someone out of the game usually isn't all that great a strategy, but it's one of the most hated things in the format because it's pure spiteful dickery.

tgva8889

2010-08-27, 07:51 PM

Yes, but spending two tutors to do something that still requires about as much mana isn't generally worth it.

I'm not saying it's not massively unfun or hated, because it is, I'm just saying it's not a huge worry. 'Slaver Lock is a lot easier to pull off than Myojin lock, mostly because it doesn't require you to be playing Black. Instead, it requires you to be playing, like, Blue, which is probably the best EDH color. Or Red, which I guess isn't as good as Black but if you're playing Red, you're playing Goblin Welder, which is much easier to use than Contagion Clasp or That Which Was Taken.

Squark

2010-08-28, 10:58 AM

Right, here's another attempt at a budget legacy deck. Here's a look at what I have at this point.

3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Hypnotic Specter
2x Pox
4x Nantuko Shade
2x Phyrexian Arena
A whole lot of dark rituals. Like 9-10 of them.

So, with this in mind, here's an idea for the core of the deck.

24 Lands
18x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Mishra's Factory

Creatures
3x Nether Spirit

Sorceries
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
4x Pox

Instants
4x Dark Ritual

Idea cards
*Diabolic Edict- I don't have to explain why this is good
*Innocent Blood- Says "No" to goblin lackey when I'm on the draw]
*Infest/Marsh Casualties- I expect to have to fight through Tajuru preservers, and this does away with them
*Duress/Cabal Therapy- Goodbye, annoying cards! Cabal therapy has good syrengy with Nether Spirit
*Phyrexian Totem- I'd have to be very careful with it, but it is a nice finisher, and it gets around Pox and Smallpox
*Phyrexian Arena- Just an idea, here
*Bloodghast- An interesting alternative to the nether spirit. The question is- Can I make land drops reliably enough to use it?

Cards you shouldn't bother suggesting
*Wasteland- Too pricy
*Sinkhole- See above.
*Bob (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83771)- Hard to find in my metagame, and it just dies to innocent blood or a pox in this deck.

Penguinizer

2010-08-28, 11:43 AM

Chimeric Idol is a good wincon for pox. Cards I think have a place/what I'd play:

Hand disruption:
2x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn

Board disruption:
4x Smallpox
2x Pox

Removal:
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Innocent Blood

Acceleration:
4x Dark Ritual

Wincon:
4x Chimeric Idol
3x Nether Spirit

Stuff:
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x XXXX. Sensei's Divining Top or Powder Keg are possibilities. Maybe Phyrexian Arena. Metacall slot. Either more removal or something else.

Lands:
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Tomb of Urami
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
13x Swamp

SB:
2x Duress
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt
3x Dystopia or Perish
3x Extirpate
1x Pox

Ghost Quarter is because with crucible, they'll just run out of basics. It can also handily hit utility lands.

As for the SB: You can bring in 6 more pieces of removal against Zoo/aggro. You have 7 pieces of gravehate against dredge. Additional disruption against combo. The SB could use cards.

I also looked at it from a budget point of view. There are no insanely expensive cards. All of them should be within reach.

Astrella

2010-08-28, 05:21 PM

Squark

2010-08-28, 05:35 PM

Right, trying to get a couple of casual decks put together. First one is a Sacrifice Deck that uses Mark of Mutiny & Act of Treason to take over Enemy creatures and sacrifice them using Viscera Seer / Magmaw to pump up Mortician Beetle.

Black/Red Sacrifice Deck

Creatures
4 x Bloodthrone Vampire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198308)
4 x Death Cultist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194948)
4 x Ember Hauler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208008)
4 x Emrakul's hatcher (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193485)
2 x Magmaw (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193453)
4 x Mortician Beetle (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209108)
2 x Reassembling Skeletons (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205066)

Sorceries
4 x Act of Treason (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205072)
4 x Mark of Mutiny (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=186324)

Lands
11x Swamp
11x Mountain
2 x Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205236)

First proper deck I've thought up since I picked up Magic again.

Suggestions are always welcome, but keep in mind that I'd like to
1. keep it casual
2. keep it cheap
3. keep it limited to Zendikar and later

Feedback welcome.

Pawn of Ulamog (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194907) syrengizes well with all the sacrifice effects. I know you want to keep it to Zendikar and later, but Hissing Igaunar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174873) might be a good fit, as would Deathgreeter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202143), and they're both actually still in standard at the moment. I'd up the terramorphic count to four, and I'd consider trading for Lavaclaw Reaches (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=171007). The fact that the demand for Jace, The Mind Sculptor outstrips the demand for any other worldwake card by 7 times (Not exagerating, here) drives the prices down a lot on the other worldwake rares- Cardshark pegs reaches at about 1.50, so you should be able to get a hold of it fairly easily. Akoum Refuge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189638) is also budget friendly. Even dragonskull summi (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx)t is only about 4 dollars, so if you pull a good card in a booster, you might consider trading for some of them. Tuktuk the Explorer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194940) would also go great, and should be easy to find. Tuktuk the Returned tokens, on the other hand... But, I digress.

On a more general note, Red decks can always be improved by the addition of Lightning Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205227), although people like to hold onto them, so you may have trouble getting any.

To be honest, unless you need the deck to be standard legal, I'd also look for some cards from earlier sets like the Shadowmoor block or the Shards block- both had multicolor themes, so you could easily dig up some good cards like Murderous Redcap (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153298) and Terminate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220524). Blightning (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174917)'s good too, but if you want to keep it casual, go light on discard effects, as casual players hate discard. And don't even think about land destructon

Suedars

2010-08-28, 07:35 PM

Bazaar Trader can permanently give you a creature you've Act of Treasoned (its effect doesn't end and you can target yourself). I'm also not sure if 8 Threaten effects is enough, since it's both the center of your deck and your removal. You might want to consider adding more. Death Cultist is quite weak and should probably be cut. I also noticed that you mentioned Viscera Seer in your description, but it's not in the deck. I probably wouldn't run it unless you're badly hurting for sac outlets, since it's a little underwhelming.

As far as your manabase goes, you might be better off running a few more Mountains than Swamps, since you're running more Red, and you want double Red turn 2 fairly consistently. Lavaclaw reaches is an excellent suggestion though, since it gives you something to spend your mana on if the game goes long.

Gullara

2010-08-28, 09:55 PM

If all goes well my first Friday Night Magic will be this friday and I will be able to go every week. I'm gathering the cards for this deck and I almost have them all.

Grave Monument Ascension

24 Lands
12 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
6 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Verdant Catacombs

26 Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Grave Titan
3 Joraga Treespeaker
4 Kozilek's Predator
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Nest Invader
2 Sylvan Ranger
2 Wolfbriar Elemental

10 Non Creature Spells
2 Awakening Zone
3 Beastmaster Ascension
3 Eldrazi Monument
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Overwhelming Stampede

15 Sideboard
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Naturalize
2 Obstinate Baloth
3 Overgrown Battlement
2 Summoning Trap

Mana Curve
1 – 9 2 – 6
3 – 5 4 – 6
5 – 5 6 – 3
4+ – 2

Obviously the goal is to build up a strong board position, and win via Monument, Beastmaster Ascension, Overwhelming Stampede, or Garruk.

How do you think it will perform? I've had limited playtesting, but it looks promising. The sideboard is a work in progress, but its mostly geared towards Red Deck Wins and UW Control.