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Andion Isurand
2010-08-02, 07:03 PM
There exists variant for a Feat Rogue in UA... would you as a DM allow the Ninja to trade in their sudden strike dice for fighter bonus feats? a Feat Ninja of sorts?

Gralamin
2010-08-02, 07:06 PM
There exists variant for a Feat Rogue in UA... would you as a DM allow the Ninja to trade in their sudden strike dice for fighter bonus feats? a Feat Ninja of sorts?

I would have no problem with this, but really the only person that should be asked is your DM.

Yora
2010-08-02, 07:06 PM
Ninja isn't a very strong class to begin with, and by giving up sudden strike they lose their most important ability to deal damage.
It certainly does not makes the Ninja overpowered, but as a player I would be concerned that the tradeoff is too big.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-02, 07:12 PM
well, I don't have a DM atm so Im just searching for a general consensus either for or against...

in the same way many of my thread questions are posed...

...and aye, the ninja is at a bit of a disadvantage... thats why this is mainly for a ninja multiclass dip

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The Dragon Devotee class in Races of the Dragon that provides a class ability called Combat Technique that could be adapated very nicely into this kind of variant for the classes involved.

Combat Technique (Ex): You become more deadly in combat. Each time you gain this class feature, you can choose either to take any feat from the list of fighter bonus feats for which you meet the prerequisite, or to improve the extra damage dealt by your existing sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike class feature by 1d6.

Aran Banks
2010-08-02, 10:05 PM
I kinda like that, actually.

You should add, for the rogue, "this class counts as a fighter for the purposes of feat prerequisites".

I don't think this will bring this class up a tier or anything special. Of course, that doesn't seem to be what you're going for.

TBH, I'd give add bonus fighter feats at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 and add that clause from my second paragraph. It might the ninja to mid tier 4.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-02, 10:26 PM
well, if you are going to put Combat Technique anywhere on the rogue, ninja or scout (or fighter), put them in place of a damage dice advancement in their special damage ability which for ninja and rogue is usually an odd level.

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Sample Fighter Modification

Lvl// BAB // Fort// Ref // Will// Special
01 // +01 // +02 // +00 // +00 // Combat Affinity, Bonus Feat
02 // +02 // +03 // +00 // +00 // Combat Technique
03 // +03 // +03 // +01 // +01 //
04 // +04 // +04 // +01 // +01 // Bonus Feat
05 // +05 // +04 // +01 // +01 // Combat Technique
06 // +06 // +05 // +02 // +02 //
07 // +07 // +05 // +02 // +02 // Bonus Feat
08 // +08 // +06 // +02 // +02 // Combat Technique
09 // +09 // +06 // +03 // +03 //
10 // +10 // +07 // +03 // +03 // Bonus Feat
11 // +11 // +07 // +03 // +03 // Combat Technique
12 // +12 // +08 // +04 // +04 //
13 // +13 // +08 // +04 // +04 // Bonus Feat
14 // +14 // +09 // +04 // +04 // Combat Technique
15 // +15 // +09 // +05 // +05 //
16 // +16 // +10 // +05 // +05 // Bonus Feat
17 // +17 // +10 // +05 // +05 // Combat Technique
18 // +18 // +11 // +06 // +06 //
19 // +19 // +11 // +06 // +06 // Bonus Feat
20 // +20 // +12 // +06 // +06 // Combat Technique


Combat Affinity (Ex): Whenever selecting a bonus feat gained from the fighter class, treat your ability scores as being 2 points higher than their actual values.

Combat Technique (Ex): You become more deadly in combat. Each time you gain this class feature, you can choose either to take any feat from the list of fighter bonus feats for which you meet the prerequisite, or to improve the extra damage dealt by your existing sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike class feature by 1d6.

21 // +01 // +00 // +00 // +00 //
22 // +01 // +01 // +01 // +01 // Epic Bonus Feat
23 // +02 // +01 // +01 // +01 // Epic Combat Technique
24 // +02 // +02 // +02 // +02 //
25 // +03 // +02 // +02 // +02 // Epic Bonus Feat
26 // +03 // +03 // +03 // +03 // Epic Combat Technique
27 // +04 // +03 // +03 // +03 //
28 // +04 // +04 // +04 // +04 // Epic Bonus Feat
29 // +05 // +04 // +04 // +04 // Epic Combat Technique
30 // +05 // +05 // +05 // +05 //

Epic Combat Technique (Ex): You become more deadly in combat. Each time you gain this class feature, you can choose either to take any epic feat from the list of epic fighter bonus feats for which you meet the prerequisite, or to improve the extra damage dealt by your existing sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike class feature by 1d8.

Aran Banks
2010-08-02, 10:35 PM
that's a very fighter-ish class, but with less dead levels. I'd say it's still tier 5.

It needs the rogue's stuff or the ninja's stuff so boost it a tier or two.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-02, 10:44 PM
Forgot to say it was a fighter modification.
Other modifications I'd make to the class is involve the fighter-only feats.
Which I did in an earlier thread by folding weapon focus and weapon specilization feats into Weapon Study feats...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160175

I used weapon groups varient as mainstream for the sake of adapting to randomly generated treasure.

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Anyway, for Ninja I'd replace their Sudden Strike ability at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level with the above stated Combat Technique... with a similar state of affairs for Rogue and Scout if it fits well.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-02, 11:02 PM
Sounds just fine to me.

Draz74
2010-08-03, 01:50 AM
Hmmm. I think this would be a definite power-up, with carefully-chosen feats, but not horrendously so.

I do really like the idea of the CAdv Ninja actually having enough feats to be able to take Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), Craven, Shadow Blade, Gloom Razor, Martial Study (Shadow Stride), and so on. (Maybe throw in a Martial Study (Claw at the Moon) for good measure.)

Andion Isurand
2010-08-03, 02:01 AM
I might as well add the following to this thread:

Ninja Feat Brews and Modfications (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9013375)

Fizban
2010-08-03, 05:43 AM
I'd allow it, but I wouldn't rate it as an actual class. The only thing that makes feat rogue better than feat ninja is that all of the ninja's other class abilities are directed at getting that sudden strike, while the rogue's other class abilities (lots of skillpoints and evasion/uncanny dodge) aren't. Neither class is really a good idea: without your sneak attack gimmick, all you have is feats to get your damage, and you end up a fighter with less AC and hp. Now, there are plenty of dex based builds, an sneak attack rogue is great for those, but they're builds and not single classes.

Feat rogue is just about the ultimate prerequisite dip class: 2 levels gets you 2 fighter feats, evasion, and at least 8 skillpoints even if you dumped int, and 16 or more if you didn't. If you need to jump through hoops to enter your prestige class, you can probably get there with a couple levels of feat rogue. A feat ninja? Well, you still get a few extra skillpoints, but the only reason I can ever see to take ninja in general is ghost step. I must admit, the ability to go invisible without wasting a standard action from level 2 onward is pretty cool. But it's only useful if you need a way to sneak attack/sudden strike, or get far enough away to hide. If you would consider dipping feat rogue but want ghost step instead of evasion, then take it, otherwise you'd be better off with feat rogue in almost any case.