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Agrippa
2010-08-02, 10:20 PM
First I'd like to thank both Chris, or as he was known here bosssmiley, and the the original developers of the E6 variant for this tier system. I'd also like to thank Chris/bosssmiley for his example characters too from this blog posting (http://vaultsofnagoh.blogspot.com/2009/03/20th-level-ho-hum.html).

While the most popular fan made tier system in D&D instends to divide classes into tiers based on both power and more importantly versatility. This tier system aims to categorize character levels by tier.

{table=head]Tier|Levels/CRs|Examples
Gritty|1-5|Movie Conan, Kane, Indiana Jones, Season one and two Scoobie gang (Buffy)
Pulp Heroic|6-10|XLG, Luther Arkwright, Judge Dredd, Lord of the Rings, The n Musketeers, Season late season one to five Scoobie gang and Faith (Buffy), Firefly (around sixth level to be more exact)
Wuxia|11-15|Crouching Tiger, Hero, Nemesis the Warlock, Season five to six Buffy, Willow and Faith (Buffy), Angel (Buffy and Angel)
Superhero|16-20|Justice League, The Authority, endgame Final Fantasy heroes, Season seven to eight Buffy, Willow, Angel and Faith(Buffy), Caleb (Buffy)
Godlike|21+|Thor, Chronicles of Amber, Sandman, endgame Final Fantasy villains, The New Gods[/Table]

Frankly I'd place the cast of Final Fantasy VII in the superhero tier. Meaning that they're roughly the equivalent of the Avengers, the Justice League, The Authority or the X-Men. So Cloud and Zack would be in essence on par with Superman and Captain America, while Vincent Valentine would be a combination of Wolverine, Beast Boy, The Hulk and Tommy Monaghan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitman_(comics)) in terms of power, but not personality.

To explain the tiers and their names I'll include this little sidebar, so to speak, to be further defined and elaborated on later.

Gritty:
Pulp Hero:
Wuxia:
Super Hero:
Godlike:

If anyone is curious I'm using tier 3 classes as a base line.

P.S. I'd really like some help defining each tier of power/experience.

Masaioh
2010-08-02, 10:25 PM
I would suggest that you add more examples for each Tier.

Agrippa
2010-08-02, 10:35 PM
I would suggest that you add more examples for each Tier.

I will, in italics.

Agrippa
2010-08-02, 11:28 PM
I just added a few more examples of my own.

Tengu_temp
2010-08-02, 11:28 PM
DND does a really bad job at representing most media, and the discrepancies between classes do not help - some characters can do more and more things, while others just grow better at what they're supposed to do, without gaining any new abilities. A level 18 fighter, which would be in the Superhero tier by your standards, can withstand a lot of punishment and is really good with a sword, but can't really do anything extraordinary, most of his power comes from magic items - nowhere near Superman. At the same time, a level 18 wizard makes reality his bitch, and there's nothing he can't do.

Agrippa
2010-08-03, 12:58 AM
DND does a really bad job at representing most media, and the discrepancies between classes do not help - some characters can do more and more things, while others just grow better at what they're supposed to do, without gaining any new abilities. A level 18 fighter, which would be in the Superhero tier by your standards, can withstand a lot of punishment and is really good with a sword, but can't really do anything extraordinary, most of his power comes from magic items - nowhere near Superman. At the same time, a level 18 wizard makes reality his bitch, and there's nothing he can't do.

Frankly I have no problems with wizards making reality thier bitch. That's what they do. But fighters, they should actually be able to fight. Which is why I propose eliminating weapon specialization as a feat and making it a warrior (fighter, paladin, ranger or brawler) only class feature. Tome of Battle base classes are eliminated and thier maneuver progressions and disciplines are parcelled off to other classes. All warriors may chose warblade disciplines and advancement, fighters, paladins and barbarians can take crusader maneuvers and progressions and ranger, rogues and bard may elect for swordsage progression and disciplines. All warrior classes gain marshal-like auras.

Also weapon specialization is actually worthwile, both because it raises base weapon damage and more importantly because it grants additional attacks per round over and above reiterative attacks due to BAB. Just as long as you dont multiclass or prestige class out of fighter. While Flurry of Blows no longer preevnts movement. It instead encourages movement by granting a +2 to attack and damage when used with a simultaneous move action. It also rises by +2 per hit. Vorpal Strike is an heroic tier feat and is open slashing and bludgoning weapons as well as unarmed strikes. Last but not least, high wuxia tier fighters gain frightful pressence as an extraordinary ability that steadily rises to a 500' radius at 20th level. Provided all enemies have clear line of sight on the fighter in question.

Milskidasith
2010-08-03, 01:14 AM
I think you've massively overestimated basically everybody over level 10 in your post. It is hard to make a direct comparison, but level 11 characters are capable of far more than you've stated. Even moreso for level 16, and epic... Even assuming you aren't using epic spell cheese, none of the listed examples even come close.

Agrippa
2010-08-03, 01:40 AM
I think you've massively overestimated basically everybody over level 10 in your post. It is hard to make a direct comparison, but level 11 characters are capable of far more than you've stated. Even moreso for level 16, and epic... Even assuming you aren't using epic spell cheese, none of the listed examples even come close.

Then fully eplain your postition.

Milskidasith
2010-08-03, 01:46 AM
Then fully eplain your postition.

The characters you have listed past eleventh level are not as strong as level 11+ D&D characters. That is my position.

None of the people past 11th level can instantly teleport anywhere on the world, cause city wide destruction in mere seconds, few have the movement capabilities of D&D characters, none have the instant kill ability of D&D characters, etc. Well, OK, mostly casters; against, say, warblades, they stack up more favorably. But, in short, if a character on your list past 11th level can't instantly teleport anywhere, blow up at least a few city blocks every few seconds, fly, kill swathes of people with a thought, and become nearly entirely immune to attacks, they aren't a level 11+ D&D character. Of the entire list you have for 11 level + characters, from media I recognize, only the Final Fantasy villains even match a mid level wizards destructive power.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-03, 01:48 AM
I think you've massively overestimated basically everybody over level 10 in your post. It is hard to make a direct comparison, but level 11 characters are capable of far more than you've stated. Even moreso for level 16, and epic... Even assuming you aren't using epic spell cheese, none of the listed examples even come close.

I'd imagine that the two of you are likely thinking different writers/character feats for the given examples.

There is, for example, a vast difference between pre-CoIE Superman (who blew out a sun like a candle) and the Modern Superman. There is also significant variation in the character throughout the modern period, though generally less sever than the pre/post crisis examples.

Thor is another good example of this: if you were to look at, say, the feats of power from the period when his comic was titled Thunderstrike, you would likely put him in the Wuxia category. If you were to look at his feats of power in ensemble titles, like the Avengers, it would likely be the superhero category. In contrast, if you look at the solo titles, there are some things that, in D&D terms, are clearly at least epic: he starts the most recent series with a feat fairly early in the run that would be best modeled as the SDA Gift of Life (actually, it would be a Mass version of it within the first few issues). He also does battle with people who can make whole states disappear.

Milskidasith
2010-08-03, 01:55 AM
Ozy, some of the things you say (the Gift of Life thing, for instance) falls pretty squarely into the trap of "D&D doesn't model X, or models it as really high level, so the character must be really high level!"

I haven't read Thor, so it is entirely possible he may be at epic levels (though I doubt it), but one example of a presumably epic ability and the ability to fight people who can do what decent level characters can do (well, they can kill most of the people in the state, anyway) does not make him epic; I highly doubt he has the ability to simply instantly kill people, easy access to being ressurected himself, teleportation, etc, all of which are staples of D&D play.

In general, though, my point stands; the Justice League heroes aren't really much higher than 10~12th level (Superman can fly and punch things REALLY hard, yes, but... so can anybody past fifth level in D&D), although it depends on the setting, Final Fantasy heroes are nowhere near epic, and Buffy never gets anywhere near what I'd call 20th level characters.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-03, 02:05 AM
Ozy, some of the things you say (the Gift of Life thing, for instance) falls pretty squarely into the trap of "D&D doesn't model X, or models it as really high level, so the character must be really high level!"

Most of the things he does in the most recent "Thor" series are reasonably modeled as very high level in D&D in my opinion, though I how my prior comment could be easily read in that manner.


I haven't read Thor, so it is entirely possible he may be at epic levels (though I doubt it), but one example of a presumably epic ability and the ability to fight people who can do what decent level characters can do (well, they can kill most of the people in the state, anyway) does not make him epic; I highly doubt he has the ability to simply instantly kill people, easy access to being ressurected himself, teleportation, etc, all of which are staples of D&D play.

Actually he does most of those. He was dead and his soul was destroyed. His alter ego convinced him to not be dead and resurrect himself. He then resurrected all of the other Asgardians, who had also all died in Ragnarok. He fairly regularly teleports in his solo series (and perhaps more often as a guest in mythologically themed books like Prince of Power), often between planes. He almost never does so in ensemble books like the Avengers.

He does not regularly insta-kill people, but he also does not regularly kill.

And they don't kill most people in the state. Oklahoma is just gone for a while. There's nothing between Kansas, Texas, and Arkansas. And it's gone off the maps too. But it comes back.

Edit: As a side note, the New Gods all carry around Mother Boxes. Though used most regularly to teleport where ever the wielder wants, they also tend to do pretty much everything else that isn't explicitly limited to a specific character in the DCU. Heal any wound? Check. Replicate extremely powerful telepathy? Check. Protect you form any random effect? Check.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-03, 02:08 AM
I haven't read Thor, so it is entirely possible he may be at epic levels (though I doubt it), but one example of a presumably epic ability and the ability to fight people who can do what decent level characters can do (well, they can kill most of the people in the state, anyway) does not make him epic; I highly doubt he has the ability to simply instantly kill people, easy access to being ressurected himself, teleportation, etc, all of which are staples of D&D play.

Eh.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_%28Marvel_Comics%29#Powers_and_abilities)

Highlights include him travelling at supersonic speeds in the earth's atmosphere (and faster than light in space), energy blasts of some sort that have apparently driven back or 'challenged' Galactus (A Cosmic Entity) and a Living Planet, survived direct rocket his and falls from orbit, the gravity of a neutron star and being able to hear things happen on the other side of the planet.

And this is before he is granted the 'Odinforce'. After that, well. I'd read the last paragraph of the linked section for yourself. :smallsmile:

As for many other superheroes, You're probably not so far out, but Thor probably wasn't the best example to focus on. :smallwink: He is, after all, an actual God.

Milskidasith
2010-08-03, 02:12 AM
Actually he does most of those. He was dead and his soul was destroyed. His alter ego convinced him to not be dead and resurrect himself. He then resurrected all of the other Asgardians, who had also all died in Ragnarok. He fairly regularly teleports in his solo series (and perhaps more often as a guest in mythologically themed books like Prince of Power), often between planes. He almost never does so in ensemble books like the Avengers.

He does not regularly insta-kill people, but he also does not regularly kill.

OK, well Thor seems to be an exception, since now he looks like he could fit as a high, but not necessarily epic, cleric. Well, besides reviving himself, but again, that's less "He's too strong for D&D to model" and more "D&D didn't really bother modelling it."

The point is, once you cross from level 20 to epic, you're basically gone from being incredibly, incredibly powerful, far beyond most any actual literary hero, to... omnipotent. It all depends on epic spell use, of course, but basically nothing in literature is actually an Epic level threat. Having not read the series, I find it hard to believe there would actually be a character written like that, although Thor could be an exception. Most of the other people I've brought up specifically (FF villains and heroes, the Justice League, Buffy) are still far lower than they need to be, and things like The New Gods all depends on how powerful you consider gods to be; in D&D, they aren't exactly tough, while in most mythologies, they are effectively invincible.

EDIT: Tiki, I'd like to point out I didn't bring up Thor specifically. Ozy did as an exception, and yes, it does seem like he could fit as an epic character. While I understand you are attempting to help facilitate discussion, saying Thor wasn't the best example to focus on seems a tad insulting when I did not actually focus on him, or even use his name, until Ozy pointed out his abilities. Also, some of the listed feats are rather meh (surviving rockets and orbital falls), and others just flat out don't make sense (surviving the gravity of a neutron star? At what point was one of those close enough he could be subjected to it, but far enough away from every other character and the Earth they wouldn't be destroyed)? It's hard to accurately judge what such feats mean when reality and what the author's perception of what it could do seem at odds.

faceroll
2010-08-03, 02:24 AM
DND does a really bad job at representing most media, and the discrepancies between classes do not help - some characters can do more and more things, while others just grow better at what they're supposed to do, without gaining any new abilities. A level 18 fighter, which would be in the Superhero tier by your standards, can withstand a lot of punishment and is really good with a sword, but can't really do anything extraordinary, most of his power comes from magic items - nowhere near Superman. At the same time, a level 18 wizard makes reality his bitch, and there's nothing he can't do.

I think 3.5 is really good at representing a lot of media, actually. Why should Biff the Dirt Farmer be identical in power to Lord High Awesome Pants?

I mean, 3.5 gives us intelligent sandwiches, Darth Vader, Gandalf, Beatrix Kiddo, Wolverine, Legolas. You name it, you can build it.

Swordguy
2010-08-03, 02:27 AM
This interesting, and actually a LOT more complicated that your initial post makes it look. If you're going to quantify "genre power equivalencies" by level, you also have to account for the Tier System.

So, instead of what you've got up there in the OP, the table setup should probably resemble something like this (level breakdowns are APPROXIMATE):


Tier 1 Classes (Wizard, Druid, Cleric, etc)
{table=head]Tier|Levels/CRs|Examples
Gritty|1-3|Movie Conan, Kane, Indiana Jones, Season one and two Scoobie gang (Buffy)
Pulp Heroic|4-6|XLG, Luther Arkwright, Judge Dredd, Lord of the Rings, The n Musketeers, Season late season one to five Scoobie gang and Faith (Buffy), Firefly (around sixth level to be more exact)
Wuxia|7-10|Crouching Tiger, Hero, Nemesis the Warlock, Season five to six Buffy, Willow and Faith (Buffy), Angel (Buffy and Angel)
Superhero|11-13|Justice League, The Authority, endgame Final Fantasy heroes, Season seven to eight Buffy, Willow, Angel and Faith(Buffy), Caleb (Buffy)
Godlike|14+|Thor, Chronicles of Amber, Sandman, endgame Final Fantasy villains, The New Gods[/Table]


Tier 2 Classes (Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, etc)
{table=head]Tier|Levels/CRs|Examples
Gritty|1-4|Movie Conan, Kane, Indiana Jones, Season one and two Scoobie gang (Buffy)
Pulp Heroic|5-8|XLG, Luther Arkwright, Judge Dredd, Lord of the Rings, The n Musketeers, Season late season one to five Scoobie gang and Faith (Buffy), Firefly (around sixth level to be more exact)
Wuxia|9-12|Crouching Tiger, Hero, Nemesis the Warlock, Season five to six Buffy, Willow and Faith (Buffy), Angel (Buffy and Angel)
Superhero|13-16|Justice League, The Authority, endgame Final Fantasy heroes, Season seven to eight Buffy, Willow, Angel and Faith(Buffy), Caleb (Buffy)
Godlike|17+|Thor, Chronicles of Amber, Sandman, endgame Final Fantasy villains, The New Gods[/Table]



Tier 3 Classes (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, etc)
{table=head]Tier|Levels/CRs|Examples
Gritty|1-5|Movie Conan, Kane, Indiana Jones, Season one and two Scoobie gang (Buffy)
Pulp Heroic|6-9|XLG, Luther Arkwright, Judge Dredd, Lord of the Rings, The n Musketeers, Season late season one to five Scoobie gang and Faith (Buffy), Firefly (around sixth level to be more exact)
Wuxia|10-15|Crouching Tiger, Hero, Nemesis the Warlock, Season five to six Buffy, Willow and Faith (Buffy), Angel (Buffy and Angel)
Superhero|16-20|Justice League, The Authority, endgame Final Fantasy heroes, Season seven to eight Buffy, Willow, Angel and Faith(Buffy), Caleb (Buffy)
Godlike|21+|Thor, Chronicles of Amber, Sandman, endgame Final Fantasy villains, The New Gods[/Table]


Tier 4 Classes (Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, etc)
{table=head]Tier|Levels/CRs|Examples
Gritty|1-5|Movie Conan, Kane, Indiana Jones, Season one and two Scoobie gang (Buffy)
Pulp Heroic|6-12|XLG, Luther Arkwright, Judge Dredd, Lord of the Rings, The n Musketeers, Season late season one to five Scoobie gang and Faith (Buffy), Firefly (around sixth level to be more exact)
Wuxia|13-16|Crouching Tiger, Hero, Nemesis the Warlock, Season five to six Buffy, Willow and Faith (Buffy), Angel (Buffy and Angel)
Superhero|17+|Justice League, The Authority, endgame Final Fantasy heroes, Season seven to eight Buffy, Willow, Angel and Faith(Buffy), Caleb (Buffy)
Godlike|NEVER|Thor, Chronicles of Amber, Sandman, endgame Final Fantasy villains, The New Gods[/Table]


Tier 5 Classes (Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, etc)
{table=head]Tier|Levels/CRs|Examples
Gritty|1-6|Movie Conan, Kane, Indiana Jones, Season one and two Scoobie gang (Buffy)
Pulp Heroic|7-13|XLG, Luther Arkwright, Judge Dredd, Lord of the Rings, The n Musketeers, Season late season one to five Scoobie gang and Faith (Buffy), Firefly (around sixth level to be more exact)
Wuxia|14-18|Crouching Tiger, Hero, Nemesis the Warlock, Season five to six Buffy, Willow and Faith (Buffy), Angel (Buffy and Angel)
Superhero|19+|Justice League, The Authority, endgame Final Fantasy heroes, Season seven to eight Buffy, Willow, Angel and Faith(Buffy), Caleb (Buffy)
Godlike|NEVER|Thor, Chronicles of Amber, Sandman, endgame Final Fantasy villains, The New Gods[/Table]

Tier 6 Classes (CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner)
{table=head]Tier|Levels/CRs|Examples
Gritty|1-8|Movie Conan, Kane, Indiana Jones, Season one and two Scoobie gang (Buffy)
Pulp Heroic|9-15|XLG, Luther Arkwright, Judge Dredd, Lord of the Rings, The n Musketeers, Season late season one to five Scoobie gang and Faith (Buffy), Firefly (around sixth level to be more exact)
Wuxia|16+|Crouching Tiger, Hero, Nemesis the Warlock, Season five to six Buffy, Willow and Faith (Buffy), Angel (Buffy and Angel)
Superhero|NEVER|Justice League, The Authority, endgame Final Fantasy heroes, Season seven to eight Buffy, Willow, Angel and Faith(Buffy), Caleb (Buffy)
Godlike|NEVER|Thor, Chronicles of Amber, Sandman, endgame Final Fantasy villains, The New Gods[/Table]




Now the level breakdown per Tier are approximate, but the point, I think, is there. Further, you can make a second set of tables JUST dependent on the level of optimization present in the character. A Heavily-optimized Wizard (like the 6th level Wizard casting 28 9th level spells per day in the E6 Balor Thread) is going to have a different set of genre power equivalencies at any given level than a Wizard who is played as a regular Batman, and who will in turn be different than a Wizard who is played as a Blaster.

But it's not all so simple that one table will suffice to cover it all.

There IS, however, an interesting argument to be made. Back in older D&D editions, classes had differing XP rates required to reach given levels. This project could well serve as a guideline to balance out a game. If you want your players to top out at "Pulp Heroic" power level, you can scale the XP the Wizard gets, so when the Fighter is a Pulp Hero (Level 13), the Wizard is ALSO a Pulp Hero (Level 6). Alternatively, if you wanted something in the E6 vein, you can apply class-specific level caps dependent on the maximum desired power level of the setting.

Milskidasith
2010-08-03, 02:29 AM
I think 3.5 is really good at representing a lot of media, actually. Why should Biff the Dirt Farmer be identical in power to Lord High Awesome Pants?

I mean, 3.5 gives us intelligent sandwiches, Darth Vader, Gandalf, Beatrix Kiddo, Wolverine, Legolas. You name it, you can build it.

It's really bad at representing media because plenty of people think, say, Conan is 20th level, and there are tons of things that, while not necessarily combat related, are significant outliers (super speed, which doesn't really exist in D&D, skills, super hearing/vision, etc). Plenty of people think that, say, Legolas should be 20th level because of his amazing tracking, and yes, very fast characters that can hear from long distances do things mid level D&D characters can't, but... D&D just doesn't convert those things that well, because, in a weird way, it managed to have all the spells required to make D&D far higher powered than most things, while mundane things like skills, movement, and hitting stuff managed to stay at decidedly powerful, but not superhero level powerful, levels.

EDIT: Swordguy, there should be no distinction between T1 and T2 in terms of levels on there, and if there is, it should be based on when they acquire a new spell level (why is godlike for wizards level 14? It's nothing different from 13). T1 and T2 are essentially "I win at everything" (T1) and "I win at anything (T2)." Assuming they both focus on one thing only to exclusion of all else, they'd be pretty much equal, save spontaneous casters being behind a spell level. Also, non casters generally don't ever reach godlike levels, period, although they can break planets in half or throw them with shenanigans.

Mystic Muse
2010-08-03, 02:33 AM
Can anybody remind me of what Caleb did in Buffy that puts him that high on the power list? I can't seem to remember season 7 all that well.

Swordguy
2010-08-03, 02:35 AM
EDIT: Swordguy, there should be no distinction between T1 and T2 in terms of levels on there, and if there is, it should be based on when they acquire a new spell level (why is godlike for wizards level 14? It's nothing different from 13). T1 and T2 are essentially "I win at everything" (T1) and "I win at anything (T2)." Assuming they both focus on one thing only to exclusion of all else, they'd be pretty much equal, save spontaneous casters being behind a spell level. Also, non casters generally don't ever reach godlike levels, period, although they can break planets in half or throw them with shenanigans.


I'm not interested in arguing the minutia (although I'd argue that, since they're behind by a spell level, attaining an given power equivalency a level later seems appropriate). I'm just saying that a single chart doesn't work in regards to the OP's theory. You have to account for class power imbalances if you're going to do this sort of thing - that's all. Consider the charts I posted to be examples, not definitive works. :smallwink:

Ozymandias9
2010-08-03, 02:35 AM
OK, well Thor seems to be an exception, since now he looks like he could fit as a high, but not necessarily epic, cleric. Well, besides reviving himself, but again, that's less "He's too strong for D&D to model" and more "D&D didn't really bother modelling it."

The point is, once you cross from level 20 to epic, you're basically gone from being incredibly, incredibly powerful, far beyond most any actual literary hero, to... omnipotent. It all depends on epic spell use, of course, but basically nothing in literature is actually an Epic level threat.
I'll agree that there is a huge difference between casters and non-casters, particularly at epic levels.
As you pointed out, most of these stack up more favorably against warblades than wizards. Personally, I would model most of them as warlocks.

Let's look at the feats of power you listed in your reply to Agrippa, relative to the Justice League. I'll stick to the more iconic superhuman members: Superman, Wonder Woman(WW), the Green Lanterns(GLs), the Flashes, and the Martian Manhunter(MM).


The teleportation none of them can meat without the assistance of, say, a technological item. But they all have reasonable access to wormhole generators or motherboxes as needed. Moreover, Wonder Woman, Superman, the Martian Manhunter, most of the Flashes and any of the Green Lanterns can be anywhere on earth in under a minute (at least in most incarnations). I'd consider that a reasonable proxy.
Flight is easily met by WW, Superman, MM, and any of the GLs. The Flashes can run up any vertical surface and water/lava/the like.
With the notable exception that only the Martian Manhunter and some versions of Wonder Woman keep up Mind Blank, all of the ones listed above are functionally invulnerable (excepting most of them having a kryptonite factor).
Excluding ethical issues, blowing up a city block a turn wouldn't be an issue for the GLs, MM, Superman. Depending on the flash and the writer, it could probably be done. And the Martian Manhunter could easily get the effect of Dominate on the inhabitants of a city block as well.

Milskidasith
2010-08-03, 02:36 AM
Can anybody remind me of what Caleb did in Buffy that puts him that high on the power list? I can't seem to remember season 7 all that well.

I don't remember him doing anything that puts him that high, but then again, save Thor now that I know what he's done, none of the people listed really seem as high as they are, though Swordguy's manages to make them a lot more accurate.

The problem with scaling XP is one of money; a level 13 fighter can easily buy his way into being able to cast as well as, say, a 10th level wizard due to scrolls (well, OK, not that well except for one shots), but he can certainly fight well and, with wands, do about as well as a fifth level wizard as well, which means a sixth level wizard is likely to be weaker unless optimized.

EDIT: Ozy, you've got a lot of proxies there. Getting somewhere in under one minute isn't teleportation. That's *horrible* by D&D standards. Not only that, the kryptonite factor of every listed hero is... well, easy, by D&D standards. Yellow doesn't even take any effort, and kryptonite is just one spell, and... what was the Flash's kryptonite factor? Besides being really fast, which D&D doesn't model, he seems rather susceptible to normal threats.

Agrippa
2010-08-03, 02:44 AM
I'm using Tier 3 classes for the base line, just so you know.

Milskidasith
2010-08-03, 02:47 AM
I'm using Tier 3 classes for the base line, just so you know.

That information is kind of (read: completely) necessary in order to understand why you ranked things the way you did, and you should have mentioned it earlier, and should probably edit it into the first post.

Agrippa
2010-08-03, 02:49 AM
That information is kind of (read: completely) necessary in order to understand why you ranked things the way you did, and you should have mentioned it earlier, and should probably edit it into the first post.

Done, now what?

Ozymandias9
2010-08-03, 02:58 AM
Can anybody remind me of what Caleb did in Buffy that puts him that high on the power list? I can't seem to remember season 7 all that well.

Probably the fact that he was immune to all forms of harm except from a specific weapon. He, and most of the Buffyverse, are probably modeled too high in an attempt to model the show's power creep.

Willow, in particular, however, should probably be where she is placed (at least for the later part of the series). She can't do teleport in season 6, but she can try to destroy the world. It is, however, implied that she's learning how in early season 7. In season 6, she casts reasonable simulacrums of:

Modify Memory (and a more powerful version) (4th level)
Wind Walk (6th)
Wall of Force (5th)
Raise Dead (5th) (with waived time limitation) or Ressurection (in either case, with an added ritual)
Power Leach (4th, Psi)
Divine Power (4th) or Tenser's (spelling?) Transformation (6th)
Something in the Summon Monster Line capable of keeping Buffy busy with ~10 or so monsters (?)
Some very long range flame conjuration (?)
and an Artifact assisted kill everything spell that she never completed.



EDIT: Ozy, you've got a lot of proxies there. Getting somewhere in under one minute isn't teleportation. That's *horrible* by D&D standards. Not only that, the kryptonite factor of every listed hero is... well, easy, by D&D standards. Yellow doesn't even take any effort, and kryptonite is just one spell, and... what was the Flash's kryptonite factor? Besides being really fast, which D&D doesn't model, he seems rather susceptible to normal threats.

The under a minute is a conservative measure. Most of the Flashes should be able to do under a second. The others are a bit harder to pin down. They can always do at least escape velocity, but beyond that it varies-- Superman, MM, and the GL's can clearly do faster than light-- since they can do self powered interstellar flight, but they never move that fast for any other purpose in modern contunity. Likewise, Wonder Woman can make it to the Moon in about the time it takes her to get to from DC to LA.

Yellow went out the door ages ago. It's fear now, save negates.

Flash doesn't have one (though Batman did make a bullet specifically designed to incapacitate them). Also, as you pointed out, D&D doesn't model them particularly well. But fast is a bit of an understatement: except Jay Garik, they're all handily faster than the speed of light, can run faster than time, and most can vibrate though solid matter (possibly making it explode). If I were trying to model them, they'd probably get a reflex save against pretty much everything, and they're be hard pressed not to make it. Also, a couple of them can make anything else that is moving stop moving altogether.

Wonder Woman is technically vulnerable to piercing weapons, in so far as every other form of damage (magical and elemental included) hits a DR on par with Superman's. Most versions (though arguably not the current one, or the prior one) would probably be outright immune to anything requiring a will save.

Superman's Kriptonite thing is easy, but it's not a "he's suddenly almost dead" thing these days-- he's usually just a bit sick unless there's a lot of it.

The Martian Manhunter's fire thing is a bit too easy though. However, he got over that. Or maybe not, it depends on who is writing.

Mystic Muse
2010-08-03, 03:19 AM
She can't do teleport in season 6

I was under the impression that she could it just wasn't flashy enough.

faceroll
2010-08-03, 03:25 AM
It's really bad at representing media because plenty of people think, say, Conan is 20th level, and there are tons of things that, while not necessarily combat related, are significant outliers (super speed, which doesn't really exist in D&D, skills, super hearing/vision, etc). Plenty of people think that, say, Legolas should be 20th level because of his amazing tracking, and yes, very fast characters that can hear from long distances do things mid level D&D characters can't, but... D&D just doesn't convert those things that well, because, in a weird way, it managed to have all the spells required to make D&D far higher powered than most things, while mundane things like skills, movement, and hitting stuff managed to stay at decidedly powerful, but not superhero level powerful, levels.

Is that like a quasi argument from popularity? Or are you saying that because there are high powered wizards, level 20 Conan doesn't work?

I don't know anything about Conan, so let's not use that. There is the rather (in)famous "everyone in LotRs was 5th level" essay, for instance. So maybe Conan isn't that high level?

There are also variant systems like E6, WP/V, and armor as DR that helps with HP inflation.

Part of being good at mimicking lots of media is having lots of pieces that can be added or subtracted. Just because you have alpha-level psykers in the toolkit doesn't mean you include them in your 1920s zombiegeddon. 3.5 is extremely modular and can be used to mirror most power levels, most of the time.

Most of your argument seems to be "if you need X levels of Y to mimic some Z, there's a wizard of equal level that can blow him out of the water." The simple reply is leave the wizard out. Or use a different caster like the beguiler, bard, or adept. It's like I just got this sweet box of crayons (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8hwPS8tSnYw/Sj_01yz1DEI/AAAAAAAABnY/GNPKahhOx8M/s1600/crayon2.jpg), and you tell me that it's not that great, because when you use them all together, you get a vomit brown color.

Ozymandias9
2010-08-03, 03:26 AM
I was under the impression that she could it just wasn't flashy enough.

Anya could once she was a demon again (note, demons get teleport as a SLA, what a coincidence), and noted that
"No she couldn't. A witch at her level? She could only go airborne. It's a thing. Very flashy, impresses the locals, but it does take longer."

Tyndmyr
2010-08-03, 05:29 AM
I think you've massively overestimated basically everybody over level 10 in your post. It is hard to make a direct comparison, but level 11 characters are capable of far more than you've stated. Even moreso for level 16, and epic... Even assuming you aren't using epic spell cheese, none of the listed examples even come close.

Plenty of superheros in standard universes would fall into godlike. For instance, superboy changing reality by punching it. As much as trying to make sense of that makes my head hurt, there basically is no way to describe all the powers of the super-whatever pantheon without describing them as dieties.

The endless in sandman are also definitely at least at the level of dieties, if not higher. Even an epic wizard would be hard pressed to take over hell on a moments notice.

Of course, we run into problems...like stating that firefly characters are a full level above indiana jones. What level IS the ability to survive a nuke in a fridge, anyway? Some things just don't translate terribly well into D&D, probably because they're from a genre that is significantly different than D&D fantasy. Hell, consider superheros and the topic of ressurection. They manage to find ways to return from the dead with astonishing regularity, and in D&D, ressurecting yourself post-death is...quite difficult.

Cable would also fall into diety level superheros. He's created flying islands with his mind, travelled through time, can teleport through the bodies of others, and can read the minds of every human on earth. At the same time. Granted, depending on time period, you have some depowered moments, but that's true for almost any superhero.

faceroll
2010-08-03, 05:59 AM
What level IS the ability to survive a nuke in a fridge, anyway?

Rogue 2???

Fizban
2010-08-03, 06:13 AM
I think this kind of thread should get posted more often. Whenever someone complains that "level 20 isn't gritty enough" it's nice to have a whole thread devoted to the fact that DnD is not the same genre at all levels.

I don't really like the name wuxia for the 11-15 range, but I don't have another one handy. Or better examples. It's really the murky part, where some classes progress immediately towards godlike, others to superhero, and some stay mostly the same. I don't know what examples in fiction would apply, since I don't think I've seen much if anything that fell between pulp hero and superhero. Really, the answer is "hero", but I think most movies either stop at pulp or go whole hog into super, so you'd have to try popular video games.

Closak
2010-08-03, 06:46 AM
So...what level do you need to be to curbstomp the physical shape of a god?

Or rip the whole dang planet out of orbit with your mind for that matter?

Kurald Galain
2010-08-03, 06:56 AM
Relevant TV Tropes link... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperWeight)

Essentially, there are seven power levels in fiction.

-1: Redshirt and mook. These guys exist mainly to die quickly. Minions from 4E fall in this category.
0: Commoner. Regular people, nothing special about them. Most NPC classes belong here.
1: Tough. Well-trained and skilled, without "super" powers. Most non-caster classes fall in this territory, and higher level NPC classes.
2: Super-powered. Has an extraordinary power like flight or invisibility, that is simply not attainable by ordinary mortals. Higher level PCs may enter here, e.g. with the Shadowdancer's HIPS ability. Warlocks also qualify.
3: Multi-powered. Has several extraordinary powers. Most D&D casters qualify here.
4: Godlike. Essentially, the character can do whatever he wants. High-level casters belong here, particularly wizards.
5: Force of nature. This tier generally belongs to overpowers like Ao or the Lady Of Pain.


Note that the above list does not mean that any higher rank character will automatically defeat a lower-rank character. It is quite common in fiction for e.g. a trained normal (:roy:) to defeat a multi-powered character (:xykon:).




I don't know anything about Conan, so let's not use that.
Okay, let's use Hercules, or Beowulf. Two extremely non-magical warriors, who do such fun things as swimming across an ocean, and throwing mountains around.


There is the rather (in)famous "everyone in LotRs was 5th level" essay, for instance.
That's a pretty bad essay because it didn't bother checking its facts (and as a result, cites several common erroneous assumptions as if they were factual). See this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160696) for a discussion.

Nerdanel
2010-08-03, 08:37 AM
Sebastian from Kuro****suji (stupid overeager swear word filter) would definitely be epic level in D&D, but his tier would likely be somewhere around 4 or even 5. (I think he has Outsider HD instead of class levels which makes this difficult.) I guess that means he should be classed on the superhero level. Sebastian clearly has Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, and the epic feat Infinite Deflection but he applies them to bullets, which might merit yet another (epic?) feat. That's in addition to fast healing/regeneration and being generally superhuman in combat, as well as all around extremely high stats and skill checks, including skills like Profession (pastry chef).

faceroll
2010-08-03, 02:57 PM
That's a pretty bad essay because it didn't bother checking its facts (and as a result, cites several common erroneous assumptions as if they were factual). See this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160696) for a discussion.

I don't see any discussion there about the lotr essay.