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Darius Rae
2010-08-02, 11:59 PM
For the next campaign (d&d 3.5) that I will be playing in I have decided to try to remake one of my original character builds. The concept is an archer who is increda-fast. This includes initiative, move speed, and arrows per round. I beseech yea, Giants, to help me trick out the following gestalt build...

Grey Elf
Scout 4/Ranger x//Wizard x/Swiftblade x

Ranger and Wizard will both use Elf substitution levels. Ranger will trade in spells for the Complete Warrior acf and animal companion for something else. Wizard will take a hummingbird for a familiar and the fighter bonus feats acf.

One flaw will be used to gain the following starting feats: Point Blank Shot, Improved Initiative (wizard), Dodge (flaw)

Any suggestions that would improve this build are welcome. As it stands this character will be the skill monkey for the group so I will be taking all the relevant skills except for social skills and open lock (knock spell).

Krazddndfreek
2010-08-03, 12:25 AM
There's a fighter bonus feat acf for wizards? Huh, I never knew. Anyways, the only thing left that I can see is to get the Agressive trait if your DM allows traits (which he should, as he's allowing flaws). Aggressive gives you +2 to init for a -1 penalty to AC. You should also grab expeditious retreat and haste at later levels, nice spells. Cat's Grace will also be useful, since it'll increase your init by another +2 and help your ranged attacks.

EDIT: Expeditious Retreat is a first level spell, grab it now. You may also want to rethink picking dodge. It's a really weak feat and so is anything else you need it for. You also really need precise shot if any of your allies are melee fighters so you should take that instead.

Darius Rae
2010-08-03, 12:32 AM
Dodge and Mobility are both required for Swiftblade.

Krazddndfreek
2010-08-03, 12:34 AM
I totally forgot about that, sorry. That's really lame :smallyuk:. How many feats will you be getting before then? Not having precise shot is going to tank your attack modifier into the ground.

Darius Rae
2010-08-03, 12:39 AM
I can always delay taking improved initiative until a later level, or see about getting another flaw.

Mongoose87
2010-08-03, 06:18 AM
Dodge and Mobility are both required for Swiftblade.

Try to pick up Desert Wind Dodge or Expeditious Dodge, instead.

Greenish
2010-08-03, 06:27 AM
Try to pick up Desert Wind Dodge or Expeditious Dodge, instead.And Mobility as an Armor enhancement, if that'll fly by your DM.

Critical
2010-08-03, 06:39 AM
I'd sooo advice you to go Dragonwrought Kobold, just for the Slippers of Battledancing, plus, you can get a free sorcerer level using one of the web enhancments. More haste, too. Also, don't lose the animal companion, instead, have it bull rush you every turn and purposely fail the opposed check, now you have skirmish damage every round on full-attacks! :smallbiggrin:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-03, 07:00 AM
Definitely get Ranger first, along side the Wizard levels, and then take the Scout levels along side Swiftblade. That way you won't lose out on any BAB. I'd also take Wizard along side Swiftblade at the levels where it doesn't advance spellcasting. Your skills can catch up, you won't lose any BAB, and you can never get back a lost level of spellcasting. You should also consider taking more Scout instead of Ranger on those Swiftblade levels, since its class features are so much better.

Ranger gets some spectacular archery spells, plus you'd be able to use wands such as Entangle, Camouflage, and Cure spells. If you can use Mystic Ranger from Dragon 336, it gets 5th level spells by the 10th level, though the other class features are somewhat delayed in exchange. This would be the only reason to keep taking Ranger past the 6th level.

I should point out that only a specialist Conjurer can get a hummingbird as his familiar. The article that introduces it gives an additional familiar option for each school of specialization, and the hummingbird is exclusive to conjurers. If you plan on taking the generalist Elf substitution level, you can't get the hummingbird. I would get the Abrupt Jaunt ACF from PH2, and take the feat Obtain Familiar at 3rd level so your levels in prestige classes that advance spellcasting will be counted for its benefits. I'll also recommend substituting out your Animal Companion for the Distracting Attack ACF in PH2, and if you want a companion pick up Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and see if your DM will let you use the Elf Ranger substitution level to get an Elven Hound via that feat. Also consider using Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) since you won't have a Str penalty. Definitely get the feat Otherworldly (PGtF) if possible, so you can use (Draconic) Polymorph to take the form of Outsiders such as an Arrow Demon (MM3).

What level is this character starting out at, and how high do you expect the character to get?

Andion Isurand
2010-08-03, 07:14 AM
I should point out that only a specialist Conjurer can get a hummingbird as his familiar. The article that introduces it gives an additional familiar option for each school of specialization, and the hummingbird is exclusive to conjurers.

Actually the text reads...


These familiars can be optional companions exclusively available to specialist wizards or additions to the list of familiars available to all sorcerers and wizards.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-03, 07:28 AM
What's with the humming bird familiar?

ex cathedra
2010-08-03, 07:33 AM
It gives a substantial bonus to initiative, especially if it is allowed to generalist wizards, since the racial substitution level doubles your familiar benefits.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-03, 07:37 AM
How substantial? My worries about initiative are usually solved via the Elemental Familiar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011109a) spell. Tiny Air Elementals are cuddlier.

ex cathedra
2010-08-03, 07:47 AM
I believe that it's a +3 or +4, prior to being doubled by the racial substitution level.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-03, 08:43 AM
Hummingbird gives +4 initiative. The Elf Wizard 3 substitution level (which you do not have to be a generalist to get) reads, "The bonus on skill checks, saves, or hit points granted by the familiar doubles." A hummingbird does not grant a bonus to skill checks, saves, or hit points, so it is not affected by the substitution level.

Darius Rae
2010-08-03, 09:20 AM
I should have clarified that only PHB races and their mundane variants are allowed. So no kobolds or fire elves. How should I distribute points in a 32pt buy. I plan on trading in ranger spells for other things so I think the stats will go Dex, Int, Con. I think my DM will allow the hummingbird familiar to have the initiative boost doubled.

I will take distracting attack. What do desert wind dodge an expeditious dodge do?

Edit: We start at level one, the campaign goes up to level 30, but we might stop at 20. There will only be two other characters in the party, a Mystic Thurge//Psion and a tank/healer thing.

Critical
2010-08-03, 09:33 AM
Edit: We start at level one, the campaign goes up to level 30, but we might stop at 20. There will only be two other characters in the party, a Mystic Thurge//Psion and a tank/healer thing.
Wait, what? Dual-progression classes are not allowed in gestalt. Well, since this rule is broken, are you allowing two PrC's on one side?

Darius Rae
2010-08-03, 09:37 AM
Wait, what? Dual-progression classes are not allowed in gestalt. Well, since this rule is broken, are you allowing two PrC's on one side?

Woops, I didn't remember that part. So he will probably be a Wizard//Archivist.

Critical
2010-08-03, 09:41 AM
Woops, I didn't remember that part. So he will probably be a Wizard//Archivist.
Okay... Say, would your DM allow this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a)? Might be worth it for a free full-attack skirmish and a spell with your standard action, at least when your animal companion can't bull rush you. :smallbiggrin: Might fit your speedy theme, too, using gust of wind.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-03, 09:59 AM
Expeditious Dodge is in Races of the Wild, it gives you +2 AC until your next turn if you move at least 40 feet. Desert Wind Dodge is in Tome of Battle, it gives you +1 AC and +1 fire damage to desert wind discipline favored weapons until your next turn if you move at least 10 feet from your original position, but requires that you know at least one desert wind maneuver.

I'd probably go Grey Elf, Str 12 (14), Dex 18 (16), Con 12 (14), Int 18 (16), Wis 8, Cha 8, and put all your points into Int as you level up. For the class build here's one that starts out decent, but doesn't develop the main shtick until quite late but IMO is stronger in the long run for it:

1. Elf Ranger 1/ Elf Martial Wizard 1, Track, Scribe Scroll, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Initiative, Flaw: Noncombatant
2. Ranger 2/ Wizard 2, Rapid Shot (style)
3. Ranger 3/ Elf Wizard 3, Expeditious Dodge, Endurance
4. Ranger 4/ Wizard 4, Distracting Attack
5. Ranger 5/ Martial Wizard 5, Mobility
6. Swiftblade 1/ Wizard 6, Woodland Archer
7. Swiftblade 2/ Scout 1
8. Swiftblade 3/ Ranger 6, Manyshot (style)
9. Swiftblade 4/ Wizard 7, Greater Manyshot
10. Swiftblade 5/ Scout 2
11. Swiftblade 6/ Scout 3
12. Swiftblade 7/ Wizard 8, Swift Hunter
13. Swiftblade 8/ Scout 4, Quick Reconnoiter
14. Swiftblade 9/ Scout 5
15. Swiftblade 10/ Wizard 9, Combat Casting
16. Abjurant Champion 1/ Scout 6
17. Abjurant Champion 2/ Scout 7
18. Abjurant Champion 3/ Scout 8, Flyby Attack, Danger Sense
19. Abjurant Champion 4/ Scout 9
20. Abjurant Champion 5/ Scout 10

At level 14 you'll get Perpetual Options from Swiftblade, which will allow you to move and Greater Manyshot twice in a single round, or single move and full attack in one round, or buff, move, and greater manyshot, etc.

Be sure to make your composite longbow Elvencraft, in Races of the Wild, so it can be treated as a quarterstaff as well as a bow. Maybe even make it a magical staff containing spells. In any case, it can be enchanted as a quarterstaff as well. You can make the bow portion +1 Seeking with whatever else you want, and make both Quarterstaff ends +1 Defending. At level 12+ cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Greater Magic Weapon on all three each day, and get +6 AC from the quarterstaff portion.

Darius Rae
2010-08-03, 05:07 PM
Given that one on the party members will be a dual-caster, is it really best for me to go all in for int? The majority of my spells should be buffs. I realize that casting is better than archery, but if I wanted to be a caster I would play a cleric//druid.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-03, 05:11 PM
Well, You need 19 anyway for lvl 9 spells. More int after that is just Wealth Investment.

herrhauptmann
2010-08-03, 05:17 PM
A lot of good stuff

Don't forget the splitting enhancement.
I've really no idea how to price a bow that's also a quarterstaff that's also a wizards staff.
Would it be: lump bow and staff enhancements as if it's a single weapon? Then add on wizard staff costs?
Might as well make it sentient, I believe one of the sentient powers is an initiative bonus.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-03, 08:12 PM
Don't forget the splitting enhancement.
I've really no idea how to price a bow that's also a quarterstaff that's also a wizards staff.
Would it be: lump bow and staff enhancements as if it's a single weapon? Then add on wizard staff costs?
Might as well make it sentient, I believe one of the sentient powers is an initiative bonus.

An Elvencraft bow's quarterstaff portion is treated as a separate item from the bow portion, just like the two ends of a double weapon are treated as separate items for magical enhancements. You would have to pay 300 gp for masterwork three times, for the bow and each quarterstaff end. All three can be enchanted separately as though they were different items. As far as enchanting it as a magical staff goes, I'm pretty sure that is also treated as though it were a separate item. Considering that it doesn't even take an item spot, it would not cost anything extra to combine multiple unrelated effects on a single item, and would actually be cheaper if the effects were similarly themed (DMG p282, sidebar).

You could make one quarterstaff end +1 Defending Eager Warning, the other end +1 Defending Parrying, get some +1 Illithidwrought armor spikes, put Displacement (OA) on any one of those, and load the bow portion with properties that increase your damage.

I also completely forgot, you should definitely take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) on every character you can. The 10% XP bonus alone is worth it, and you can upgrade your chosen item yourself as though you had all the prerequisites and item creation feats. Plus it gets treated as an intelligent item, which means it's treated as a construct, which means it functions in an antimagic field and dead magic areas, cannot be dispelled or disjoined, and can't even be sundered.

Pechvarry
2010-08-03, 11:10 PM
Ranger will trade in spells for the Complete Warrior acf

I implore you, avoid that ACF. It's sorta like "hey, I gave up multiple Ranger spell slots to get exactly one slot per spell level". If you wanna ditch ranger spells, I suggest Complete Champion's substitution levels instead (4 bonus feats).

herrhauptmann
2010-08-04, 12:15 AM
You could make one quarterstaff end +1 Defending Eager Warning, the other end +1 Defending Parrying, get some +1 Illithidwrought armor spikes, put Displacement (OA) on any one of those, and load the bow portion with properties that increase your damage.


Don't think you can put armor spikes on a weapon, even if it is defending and parrying.

Eloel
2010-08-04, 12:44 AM
There's also Midnight Dodge that could be useful if you get Chaotic Incarnate levels for any reason.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-04, 02:50 AM
Don't think you can put armor spikes on a weapon, even if it is defending and parrying.

No, you wear armor spikes on your armor. You're always considered to be wielding armor spikes, even if you don't make any attacks with them. Any weapon property on armor spikes that grants a passive effect to the wielder will always apply, leaving your hands free to possibly wield other weapons with passive effects.

Darius Rae
2010-08-04, 03:04 PM
As far as enchanting it as a magical staff goes, I'm pretty sure that is also treated as though it were a separate item.

When you say enchanting as a magical staff, do you mean adding defending and such or is there a way to make it like a metamagic rod or wand? (other than the wand chamber)

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-04, 03:08 PM
Instead of Ranger, try Barbarian. There is an ACF that trades rage for ranger's combat style. You get better HP, uncanny dodge and fast movement.

Keld Denar
2010-08-04, 03:12 PM
The only problem with Expeditious Dodge and Midnight Dodge and Desert Wind Dodge and the like, is if you are going for something like Elusive Target or Karmic Strike or even Titan Fighting. Many of those abilities ONLY work against your dodge target. If you don't have a dodge target, they don't work.

They aren't strictly better than dodge ALL the time, only some of the time.

Darius Rae
2010-08-04, 03:31 PM
Instead of Ranger, try Barbarian. There is an ACF that trades rage for ranger's combat style. You get better HP, uncanny dodge and fast movement.

Is that worth the loss of precision damage to a favored enemy?

Is there a way to fire a harpoon from a bow, say with a rope and immovable rod attached? As far as I know, this is impossible, but it would be hilarious.

What would go good in a wand chamber in this already massively expensive bow/quarterstaff/item familiar?

herrhauptmann
2010-08-04, 04:29 PM
When you say enchanting as a magical staff, do you mean adding defending and such or is there a way to make it like a metamagic rod or wand? (other than the wand chamber)

Yeah, whoops, I misread the post that I quoted. Thought you meant to put armor spikes on your staff...

Keld Denar
2010-08-04, 04:36 PM
Benign Transposition is great. You can never have too much of that spell. Seeking Ray might also be kinda fun. Its 2nd level from the PHBII, does 4d6 damage flat, ignores all cover and concealment short of total, and gives you a +4 to hit with all other ranged attacks for 3 rounds. Combos well as a ranged attacker as kinda a tracer round, and goes great with the Woodlands Archer tactical feat.

Darius Rae
2010-08-04, 06:27 PM
How is this for a bow?

Darkwood composite elvencraft longbow
Wand Chamber
Oil Chamber
Bow Blade

Bow: +3 Collision Hunting Impact Splitting (I think that is the max I can do to it)
Quarterstaff A: +5 Defending Parrying
Quarterstaff B: +5 Defending Warning
Bow Blade: +5 Defending Eager

Add in hideaway and any other gp only enhancements to taste.

I think this is the maximum for things that I could put on the bow, assuming a ton of gold and enough levels to get it done. Most of the bow enhancements will come from item familiar to reduce price.


I still need to decide what wands and oils to use with this. I checked in PHBII and it said seeking ray only gave you the bonus on rays, so I can't use that as a tracer. Also, would I be able to put wand chambers in the other parts of the weapon?

Ashes
2010-08-04, 07:47 PM
I just wanted to chime in, and say that if you're going to be an archer, you're going to want the SC archery-related spells. Arrowmind in particular. And the easiest way of getting that, is to not remove your ranger spells.

Darius Rae
2010-08-04, 11:42 PM
The issue with having both ranger and wizard spells is MAD. I need at least INT 19 for the wizard spells and skills, and a high DEX for shooting and many skills. If there was a way for the ranger spells to be based on INT then I would keep them, but I don't know a way to do that.

Icewraith
2010-08-05, 01:15 AM
+1 enhancement bonus to all your weapons unless you MUST HAVE augment crystals, in which case +3 on any weapon you want to slot a greater crystal in.

You are a wizard. You get Greater Magic Weapon. +5 weapon enhancement bonuses are for chumps and people who are both non-wizards and don't have one in the party. Also, you'll save a lot of gold.

If you want to drop the wizard idea and go cleric you could just stack wis. There's a feat somewhere (may be dragon, may be not) called Zen Archery that lets you use Wis instead of dex for ranged attacks. It sorta kills some aspects of the build but it is SAD. Nothing similar for int though, you may just have to craft and buff your way out of it (although dex is a great third stat for any wizard, right behind con). Wizards really pair well with certain melee classes (Like all of Warblade and Swashbuckler 3, never mind factotum) due to the int synergy.

Get a mithral buckler though. You won't take proficiency or spell failure penalties from it and last I checked you can pew-pew with the bow and maintain your armor bonus.

Keld Denar
2010-08-05, 01:28 AM
The Ranger spells you'll want are all really low level too, so you could easily buy a couple of Pearls of Power1 and run everything off those.

herrhauptmann
2010-08-05, 07:01 AM
If you want to drop the wizard idea and go cleric you could just stack wis. There's a feat somewhere (may be dragon, may be not) called Zen Archery that lets you use Wis instead of dex for ranged attacks. It sorta kills some aspects of the build but it is SAD. Nothing similar for int though, you may just have to craft and buff your way out of it (although dex is a great third stat for any wizard, right behind con).
Get a mithral buckler though. You won't take proficiency or spell failure penalties from it and last I checked you can pew-pew with the bow and maintain your armor bonus.
'pewpew'? :smallconfused:
But the swiftblade cleric loses a lot. Getting haste as a domain spell lets you into swiftblade, but you only get so many domain slots a day without higher feat expenditure. Plus swiftblade only advances arcane casting.


The issue with having both ranger and wizard spells is MAD. I need at least INT 19 for the wizard spells and skills, and a high DEX for shooting and many skills. If there was a way for the ranger spells to be based on INT then I would keep them, but I don't know a way to do that.

Needing two stats isn't exactly MAD, especially if one is something wouldn't normally dump anyway.. Needing 3 or 4 like the paladin is.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 07:07 AM
'pewpew'? :smallconfused:
But the swiftblade cleric loses a lot. Getting haste as a domain spell lets you into swiftblade, but you only get so many domain slots a day without higher feat expenditure. Plus swiftblade only advances arcane casting.
I believe you can put your domain spells on any slot. The domain slots only happen to demand domain spells.

But yeah, swiftblade = arcane.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-05, 07:38 AM
I believe you can put your domain spells on any slot. The domain slots only happen to demand domain spells.

Your domain spell slots must have domain spells prepared in them, but if a given domain spell was not already on your class spell list you can only prepare it in a domain slot. You can however take the PH2 ACF to spontaneously cast spells form that domain, and spontaneously convert all of your spells of that level into Haste to qualify for Swiftblade. You're right though about Swiftblade only adding "+1 level of arcane spellcasting class" so this is moot.

Darius Rae
2010-08-05, 09:22 AM
If swiftblade did advance any spell casting class then I would take a travel devotion cleric, but swiftblade only advances arcane casting. I only need WIS 11 by level 4. What about starting at WIS 10 and getting a +2 WIS item at that level? Starting stats STR 12(14) DEX 18(16) Con 10(12) INT 18(16) WIS 10 CHA 8

herrhauptmann
2010-08-05, 03:35 PM
If swiftblade did advance any spell casting class then I would take a travel devotion cleric, but swiftblade only advances arcane casting. I only need WIS 11 by level 4. What about starting at WIS 10 and getting a +2 WIS item at that level? Starting stats STR 12(14) DEX 18(16) Con 10(12) INT 18(16) WIS 10 CHA 8

Perhaps, though there's an unusual way I found in Power of Faerun to get haste on your regular list of spells known (not just as a domain spell). It seems pretty cool, so I might well choose that one, and it also opens me up to Radiant Servant when I'm done with swiftblade.
The downsides: takes several feats to get haste on your regular list, and you're now a heretic cleric of lathander.

Darius Rae
2010-08-05, 11:22 PM
Ok, that takes care of gear, feats, and classes. Now for skills. I will have 10 pts per level.

I will put max ranks in these 8 skills: Concentration, Disable Device, Spellcraft, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search and Spot

Open Lock will be replaced by Knock, and the remaining points will be divided evenly between: Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble until they get to 5pts. After that points will go to skill tricks.

Even though they are cross-class should I put points in Escape Artist and Slight of Hand?