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jpreem
2010-08-03, 09:46 AM
How would an attack sequence from a leopard look like?

The kitty has
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d3+1)
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Pounce (Ex): If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d3+1.
If I use the improved Grab on my pounce, and establish a hold then i can do my two rake attacks. But what happens to the secondary claw attacks - are they then lost? (You should be able to use just one natural attack in grapple if i recall it correctly) In case i fail my grab then probably i should be able to follow up with secondary claw attacks?

Yora
2010-08-03, 09:51 AM
A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rakeóit canít begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
So in Round 1 you charge and make a regular full attack.
If the bite attack is a hit, you're grappling now.
In Round 2 you Rake, making a full attack but without a -4 to the secondary attacks.

However, the description of the leopard is unclear: The rake attacks could either replace the claw attacks, or be in addition.
But that would be 5 attacks as a standard action for a CR 2 animal. So I would say you first make a charge and then a bite attack. If the bite hits, you make two rake attacks. If the bite is a miss and you can't establish a grapple, make two regular claw attacks instead.

Amphetryon
2010-08-03, 09:54 AM
So in Round 1 you charge and make a regular full attack.
If the bite attack is a hit, you're grappling now.
In Round 2 you Rake, making a full attack but without a -4 to the secondary attacks.

This answer reads, to me, as directly contradicting the text of the quoted Pounce ability.

Peregrine
2010-08-03, 09:59 AM
This answer reads, to me, as directly contradicting the text of the quoted Pounce ability.

That's right -- the rules for pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities#pounce) and rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities#rake) directly contradict each other.

Applying "specific overrules general", I would interpret the rules as saying that pounce overrules rake and thus is usable as part of the pounce's full attack. Whether anyone else would read it the same way, and whether I like this interpretation, is a whole other question... :smallwink:

Zaydos
2010-08-03, 10:10 AM
I ruled pounce overruled rake and they got all the attacks. Another way, though (which I realized when getting the Rules Compendium) would have been to have them bite, start the grapple, get the claw attacks at the (-4?) penalty for using natural weapons while grappling, and then get their rake attacks. Never ended up ruling this way since we had been playing with a tiger companion the other way for a year and a half already.

The real thing with the latter is I think there's something out there with rake and pounce but no improved grab.

Peregrine
2010-08-09, 01:00 AM
Wait a minute, stop the internet, I think I just figured something out.


You canít attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Does this mean that only one natural weapon is usable in a grapple? I think it might! And it's only a small stretch to consider a bite (or other) attack, when used with improved grab, to have been "used in a grapple".

So here's how pounce/improved grab/rake might have been meant to work. Charge! Attack with bite. If it misses, make ordinary claw attacks. But if it hits... Attempt to begin a grapple. If it fails, make ordinary claw attacks. But if it succeeds... You're grappling and (having used your bite) you can no longer attack with claws on this round. But you have rake! Specific overrules general. Your rake can be used, even though you didn't start your turn in a grapple. Do it!

And thus the rules go from "pounce is completely wrong, and how many attacks do raking creatures get in a grapple anyway?", to "wow, that's really badly written, but it can be interpreted in a way that makes sense".

Here's my attempt at rewriting the rules in such a way that they still work the same way, but are actually clear and precise.

Improved Grab: If a creature with this special attack uses it successfully in a full attack, it cannot use further natural weapons or manufactured weapons against the grappled target in the same full attack. However, it may use the rake or constrict special attacks.

Pounce: If a creature with this special attack also has the improved grab special attack, it loses the ability to make further ordinary attacks in its full attack if its improved grab is successful. However, if it has special attacks that become available in a grapple (namely, rake or constrict), then it can use these as part of the full attack.