New computer thoughts

[Lensman]

I need to get my 12-year old son a new computer. Budget around £400 ish ($700 or so). Torn between a 32-bit machine and a 64-bit one. Any thoughts or comments? Acer Aspire and HP Pavilion. He wants to be able to run his old games as well as newer ones. Any disadvantages in getting 64-bit architecture? Thoughts and views welcomed.

[Erloas]

Well you would have a fairly hard time finding a computer that isn't running 64bit hardware (well ATOM chips might still be 32 bit, I'm not entirely sure, but all mainstream desktop processors and motherboards are 64bit).
The only question is if you are running a 32bit or 64bit operating system.

There is virtually no reason to not run 64 bit any more.

[thubby]

these are laptops? why does everyone think they need a laptop? desktops are more powerful for less money, and most laptops live on a desk anyway /rant

everything is going to be 64 bit soon enough.
get windows 7. it's looking to be the new xp

[Brewdude]

I would recommend the Acer Laptop.

See the 3rd post down from THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161838) thread as for why.

[Syka]

For a 12 year old, I'd recommend more towards the desk top range of computers. Better power for the money (ie, will be relevant a bit longer), and less likely to get beaten all to hell. :smallwink: Also, in high school- unless he'll be attending a tech high school or some such- there isn't really a need for laptops. It may have changed in the last 5 years, but I don't remember my teachers so much as even allowing a laptop to be open during class.

My family sticks to HP desktops religiously. Between my mom, sister, and I we have three. Mine is the only one that had any kind of issue and it was quickly resolved (RAM was coming unseated or something, it was a fixed in a day).


ETA: I adore Windows 7 with a passion. I've been using it since May and just want to hug it all day long. The snap feature is my favorite part- it's more useful than it seems.

Also, unless you can get a student discount copy of Office, go with Open Office. It should do everything Office does that a middle/high school student would need. I think some high schools are part of Microsoft's Ultimate Steal program, as are a lot of universities. Wait until he (or you or whatever) is eligible, 'cause it'll save a bundle. I just upgraded to 2010 with it after using Open Office on my laptop and 2003 on my desktop for several years.

[Castaras]

Just a note (was talking to dad about this before) those computers are Desktops. I'll have the links to the amazon pages for them in a sec (Lazy Lensman!).

edit: The Acer (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Acer-Desktop-GeForce-Windows-Premium/dp/tech-data/B002Y46HK2/ref=de_a_smtd) and The HP (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-Slimline-S5508UK-Desktop-Premium/dp/tech-data/B003UV8L8E/ref=de_a_smtd)

[Syka]

In that case, my vote is going to be with the HP. They are really good machines. (This is from the girl who loathes Gateway and Dell with a passion reserved for few things in life, and who constantly has problems with electronics...the HP's have all worked great.)

[IonDragon]

I wouldn't get a 12 year old a new computer. I broke my first two computers and it's expensive to fix them. Get him a used one for about $50 on Craigslist (or the local equivalent of both currency and website) that way when he breaks it you don't have to pay for repairs, you just get a slightly better one and let him do it again.

[factotum]

Let me say to start with that going 64-bit is largely pointless unless you have more than 3Gb of installed RAM. Having said that, however, 64-bit versions of Windows are now pretty mature and driver support is a lot better than it used to be, so it's arguable you might as well go 64-bit just in case you upgrade the RAM in the machine at some point.

Erloas, even the Atom is full x64 architecture--you cannot buy any mainstream CPU from either Intel or AMD that isn't 64-bit capable these days.

[thubby]

Just a note (was talking to dad about this before) those computers are Desktops. I'll have the links to the amazon pages for them in a sec (Lazy Lensman!).

edit: The Acer (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Acer-Desktop-GeForce-Windows-Premium/dp/tech-data/B002Y46HK2/ref=de_a_smtd) and The HP (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pavilion-Slimline-S5508UK-Desktop-Premium/dp/tech-data/B003UV8L8E/ref=de_a_smtd)

my bad, my google-ing turned up laptops.

[deuxhero]

Building yourself or getting it boxed? Keeping hard drives from an old machine? Monitor?

Can't help for boxed (and would recommend against it)

This site (http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html#) has handy performance quotes for CPUs and their cost (though I don't know if the actual cost translates directly acrossed exchange rates when dealing with pounds). AMD Phenom II X4 955 seems like it's solid.


As for running older stuff, I've heard XP (which I run and haven't had any issues that weren't solved via Dosbox or forcing a program to run on only a single core in task manger) beats Vista and 7 in that regard.

[Don Julio Anejo]

If in any way you can avoid it, do not buy pre-built brand name desktops. They're a ripoff, pure and simple. HP, Sony, Acer, whatever... Several reasons:

1. I'm assuming it's a 12 year old boy (sounded like it from the post, no idea why). If so, games are probably the main reason he wants a computer. Pre-built ones have really crappy component layout, to the point where wires take up 99.9% of all available space, cut off all air circulation leading to overheats and make installing a new video card about as much fun as a cardiac bypass done with a labroscope through the mouth.

2. They always cheap out on components. Most people buying computers like that either don't care about specs at all (nothing wrong with that since these people don'tuse computers for much more than office/internet/multimedia anyway), or only look at CPU, RAM and hard drive space. Sometimes, videocards. Only maybe what, 5% will look at what kind of a motherboard it is and whether it can actually use the fancy 1366Mhz FSB that high-end ram and cpu's can support. Which means you can safely put in a 1066 Mhz one and suddenly the fancy new CPU works 20% worse because the motherboard can't ferry data fast enough, meaning there was no point in buying a high-end CPU in the first place.

3. Repairs. If you or anyone you know can diagnose a problem (hell, there's like a dozen people on this site that can), it's much easier to fix a custom built computer. Not only does it not void the warranty (which are pretty messed up - even opening the case to clean it sometimes voids the warranty, not to mention upgrading RAM/video card), but the components are much more likely to be standard and more easily replaceable.

Oh, and 4. Custom built PCs are usually something like 15-20% or so cheaper for similar specs if you build them yourself. You pick and choose whatever components you like, you don't overpay for ones you don't need (like seriously, 2 blu-ray drives for $200 apiece? Yeah, I saw a machine like that at Best Buy) and you can also put in higher-end components than are usually available in the same class. Want a Radeon HD 5870? Well, unless you're buying a $3000 pre-built brand name computer, you won't get it. In fact, for $700, you're lucky if it's not integrated. Even though if you built your own, you could easily squeeze in a 4850 or something.

PS: ignore everything I've said if you want a laptop or your kid won't play any games at all on it.

[thubby]

it's worth mentioning that there are many smaller sites that will help the computer-uninformed by building a machine from non-proprietary parts. they obviously cost more than doing it yourself, but they're still cheaper than the big names and avoid all the problems don julio mentioned

[factotum]

Only maybe what, 5% will look at what kind of a motherboard it is and whether it can actually use the fancy 1366Mhz FSB that high-end ram and cpu's can support. Which means you can safely put in a 1066 Mhz one and suddenly the fancy new CPU works 20% worse because the motherboard can't ferry data fast enough, meaning there was no point in buying a high-end CPU in the first place.


While I agree that cheap components usually mean poor performance, I disagree with your conclusion it's because of memory bandwidth. I've seen many, many tests of this in the past, and as a general rule memory bandwidth doesn't make a huge difference in performance--that 20% reduction in bandwidth you're talking about will make maybe 1 or 2% difference in most real-world applications. The only app I've ever seen that was really sensitive to memory bandwidth was SETI@Home!

[Don Julio Anejo]

That was a random example. There's many other things they can cut corners on, like an out of date motherboard chipset or using a high speed CPU with very little L2 cache (especially since I think all the Celerons are now Core Duo in name and you can't which one is which without looking at detailed specs).

[Odentin]

DO NOT BUY NAME BRAND PREPACKED COMPUTERS.

Now that that's outta the way...

For your price range, you can build a high end gaming rig. Head to newegg (www.newegg.com) and pick up the components, then build it or find someone who can. Hell, I'll build it for you, if you want...

[Cealocanth]

I would go with a laptop of some sort, 32 bit, with Vista.

[tyckspoon]

For your price range, you can build a high end gaming rig. Head to newegg (www.newegg.com) and pick up the components, then build it or find someone who can. Hell, I'll build it for you, if you want...

You may have noticed the OP's budget was quoted in pounds. From this I would assume he/she will be requiring a good European supplier, as cross-Atlantic shipping charges are murderous. He will probably also be paying above-US rates for parts, which will change the economics significantly.

[factotum]

Not to mention that building a machine from a pile of bits is all very well, but people often forget they have to pay for an operating system on top of that...unless he wants to teach his young'un Linux!

[IonDragon]

Not to mention that building a machine from a pile of bits is all very well, but people often forget they have to pay for an operating system on top of that...unless he wants to teach his young'un Linux!

Or they take the OS sticker off of an old computer...

[Lensman]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts and comments.

Yes, we're in Britain, so whilst I'm grateful to the Americans for offers of help, the presence of a rather large pond to the west of us makes accepting such help a little impractical.

I'm on a relatively limited budget, so whilst it would be nice to spend £2500 on a liquid cooled ultra-fast machine, the practicalities make a low spec machine fairly inevitable.

I'm probably not going to build my own machine for him - it comes down to time. I'm working full time (that means about 60 hours a week on average, or so it feels) and I don't have the time to learn to put the thing together, turn it on, replace the bit that blows because I did it wrong, start again, find I'm missing something essential, and then have to work out how to persuade Win 7 to install despite everything that Microsoft does to prevent us installing an operating system. So I'm going to be lazy and get a prebuilt.

What I wasn't sure about was whether there would be any benefit to splash out on Win 64-bit - you've answered that for me, and also given me other useful information. Thanks again to all of you.

[742]

its not actually difficult to put a computer together from parts. some places have pre-built sets of parts, and a 2500$ liquid cooled what? no, you can get a decent gaming computer for four hundred dollars, not counting monitor. takes maybe an hour to put together, just be paranoid about static electricity wear rubber shoes dont pet the cat keep animals away and ground yourself for a bit beforehand.

[Reinboom]

I would like to reiterate the "build it!" cries.

It's like getting a LEGO set. This LEGO set has 20,000+ instruction manuals with a quick google search, only has 12 pieces (box, power, motherboard, cpu, gpu, hard drive, disc drive, ram, mouse, keyboard, monitor, OS disc), all the pieces fit into very specific slots and are a bit difficult to set in wrong (most are designed for human error)...

The only thing you really have to keep track of is to build around the motherboard. That is, find the motherboard you want - it will give a list of kinds of CPUs it can take and what extension slots it can take (for the graphics card) and what kind of ram.

Also, installing Windows 7 is quite painless on a built computer. The installation isn't mucked with by other distributors when it is not on a prebuilt and Microsoft tends to be great about getting all the basic drivers you need on the (non mucked with) disc right off.