Graphics card advice (and other computer fixings)

[Lord Herman]

Hi all,

With the release of Starcraft II, I've decided to finally fix my computer which has been more-or-less broken for the past half year. And I could use some advice.

First, the problem. Something causes my computer to mess up the 3d rendering in some games. What it does is take random bits of 3d models, and stretch them out either to a random point, to a point infinitely along one particular axis, to the centre of the screen, or to a particular point on the horizon, depending on the game. With some games, it only does this randomly every few seconds, while others get messed up so badly you can hardly see a thing. In either case, one particular part of a model is stretched somewhere only for a split second, then it picks another part, and another, and another.

It doesn't seem to matter much if a game is old or new - some new games work perfectly, others don't. Turning down settings doesn't do anything, except in two cases - Mount & Blade works reasonably well (but not entirely flawlessly) if I turn down the settings from DirectX 9 to DirectX 7 acceleration, and Anno 1404 works quite well if I turn down all settings.

My graphics drivers, DirectX, and OS are up to date. I don't overclock or anything like that.

The games that I experience the worst problems with are Left 4 Dead, Left 4 Dead 2, and Borderlands. Starcraft II worked fine for a day, and then started acting up too. Same with Battlefield: Bad Company 2. By contrast, BioShock 1 and 2 work fine, as does Supreme Commander 2.

Now, I think the graphics card is the problem, and I think it needs replacing. But who knows, maybe someone more tech-savvy than me knows how to fix this problem with the push of a button.

System Specs:
OS: Windows Vista Home Premium SP2 (32-bit)
CPU: Intel Core2 Quad (2.4GHz quadcore)
RAM: 4 GB
GPU: GeForce 9800 GTX+

One other problem I've had, which may or may not be related, is infrequent blue screens of death. They seem to occur at random, sometimes several times in the same day, sometimes they stay away for weeks. They usually give the error message 'IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL'. I've heard this can have to do with broken RAM memory. Is this true?

Another problem has come up in the last week. When I turn on my PC, the screen won't turn on properly. It'll flash on for a fraction of a second and display whatever it's supposed to display at that moment, turn off for a few seconds, then flash on again, and so on. After restarting a few times, it'll at some point stay on. I'm not sure what makes it stay on, but it happens either at the login screen or after I've logged in. According to the internets, this might be a problem with a broken capacitor in the monitor, but I thought I'd check and see if it's not part of the larger problem of the broken graphics card instead.



So, on to the second part of this post. If I were to replace my graphics card, what should I replace it with? I haven't really kept up-to-date with the latest developments in graphics cards, so I'm not sure which ones are good. Should I be looking at ATI or nVidia? I'd prefer the latter, as I'm used to having one, but I might switch if ATI is obviously better.

My computer, if it weren't for the brokenness, could run just about anything on the highest settings with a 1680x1050 resolution. I'd like to keep being able to do that for the time being. I want to play games like Starcraft II, Left 4 Dead 1 and 2, Borderlands, and Bad Company 2. I'd like it to support whichever is the current version of DirectX (11?).

So, what card should I get? I wish I could be more specific on my budget, but I'm really not sure how much a card that does all that would cost, so I don't know what would be a realistic budget.



Thank you for reading all the way to the end of my post (or caring enough about the end to skip right to it), and I hope you can help. :smallsmile:

[monomer]

The leader for price/performance at the high end is currently the Nvidia GeForce GTX460, which runs for about $230 USD for the 1GB version. Close behind this is the 768 MB version of the GTX460, and the ATI Radeon 5830, each of which cost $200.

Taking a step down in price, the next best bet in the mid-range is the ATI Radeon 5770, which costs about $140 for the 1GB version. Nvidia does not currently have a current generation card at this price point, though you can get the previous generation GTS250 for about $120, but it won't be able to run DX11 games. I wouldn't recommend this card, though, as it is basically just a rebranded version of the GTX9800+ that you already own.

[Flickerdart]

The polygon stretching problem is something I've encountered before. At that time, it was due to the fan on the card having mangled itself beyond recognition, never mind working order, and the card overheating at the drop of a nail as a result. Crack that sucker open and see if your card has melted down into slag yet - there's a chance you might be able to get away with just a new fan for it.

[factotum]

I agree with Flickerdart--this sounds like a classic case of your graphics card overheating, either because the fan isn't doing what it should or because the airflow in your case is so restricted that it can't get any cool air. If that's the case then it's certainly possible to fix it, but it isn't by pushing a button--you'd have to rearrange your case or replace the fan on the GPU. (Cleaning it and the heatsink may be enough if the problem is just that it's clogged up, mind you).

[Lord Herman]

Thanks for the responses! :smallsmile:

I've opened my case several times to clean it of dust, but I haven't seen any obvious cooling problems. All fans can turn freely, although I haven't yet checked if they actually turn when the PC is on.

By the way, one of my friends said this problem could also be caused by a faulty power supply, with the graphics card not getting enough power to work properly. Is this possible?

The $230 price tag on that GeForce GTX460 is less than I expected - if I do end up replacing my graphics card, I think I'll go with that one.

[IonDragon]

The GCard you have actually isn't bad. I have the 8800 GT (older generation, but clocks better) and it handles pretty much everything on max settings. This could be due to the overblown nature of my processor (AMD X6) being able to compensate.

Is it possible that the GCard is not receiving enough power? Yes, but it's unlikely. If the card came with a power cable adapter (2x Molex -> 1 6-pin) try connecting it to a different line, like the one currently powering your Hard Drive.
What is your power supply rated to output and how much draw do you have? Optical Drives, HDDs, fans, lights.

If it is an option, upgrade Vista to Windows 7. It's supposed to be much more stable, etc.

RE: RAM stability. Reseat your RAM, then get your hands on Memtest 86. It is (or was, last time I checked) on the Ubuntu installer CD, as well as, in my experience, most boot/diagnostics disks. Hirens is the disk I use most often. Let it run for about 3 passes. If there are no errors, then it is almost definitely not a RAM issue.

[Brother Oni]

RE: RAM stability. Reseat your RAM, then get your hands on Memtest 86. It is (or was, last time I checked) on the Ubuntu installer CD, as well as, in my experience, most boot/diagnostics disks. Hirens is the disk I use most often. Let it run for about 3 passes. If there are no errors, then it is almost definitely not a RAM issue.

He hasn't stated what type of RAM he has, so it could very well still be an issue with under-volting which Memtest doesn't pick up.

That said, the BSOD error messages does sound like a chip fault.

[Lord Herman]

I just ran into another issue I've been having that I forgot to mention. From time to time (not every day, sometimes not for a week or two, but still too frequently for my liking), my computer seems to hang, but doesn't. The hard drive access LED goes on and stays on (instead of flickering like it normally does), whatever programme I'm running freezes and doesn't respond to input, and if I alt-tab or otherwise switch to something else, that freezes too. Anything running in the background (e.g., my music player) just keeps going as long as I don't touch it. Then after a while (about 30 seconds), everything works again. I thought it might be my virus scanner (I have AVG), but it doesn't appear to be doing anything when it happens.

[Erloas]

He hasn't stated what type of RAM he has, so it could very well still be an issue with under-volting which Memtest doesn't pick up.

The only issue with under-volting RAM is that it will cause the RAM to have errors at times, errors that Memtest should be picking up. Of course if Memtest finds problems and you are under-volting you wouldn't know if it was low voltage, bad memory, or just too tight of memory timing.



As for the newest descriptions of issues, it sounds like a piece of hardware is failing. The IRQ (interrupt request) BSOD is probably caused by a piece of hardware that is sending out IRQs to the system and then never taking the next step, but the system is still waiting for the hardware to respond from the request it made. I wouldn't imagine RAM causing IRQ errors though, I can't think of any possible reason for RAM to even make an IRQ since they aren't really active devices. I forget the basic IRQ layout, but I don't remember RAM even having an IRQ number, though I could just be forgetting something.


Those sorts of failures tend to show up in Window's error logs if you check the Event Viewer in the Admin Tools in the control panel. It could be many different pieces of hardware that cause the problem. I have seen it most often with harddrives (because being a electro-mechanical system rather then solid state they are a lot more prone to failure) but it could happen with almost any device.
I'm not sure if that could cause the graphic artifacts you are experiencing while playing games though. Usually, as mentioned, those artifacts are caused by the graphics card either failing, overheating, or not having enough power.

A cheaper power supply, or one rated close to what you are actually using could very well be causing your problems. Faulty or failing power supplies can cause all sorts of different issues. They can also take a long time to fail, and all power supplies put out less total power as they age and can be very dependent on temperature as well. Power supplies are also one part many people tend to cheap out on when purchasing.

What brand and model is your power supply? They usually have a sticker on the side with power specs, how much is available to each power level (the 12V power is the important one). That might not be the problem, but its always a good place to start checking when you have a number of seemingly random problems.


If it does come down to the video card, or you just want to upgrade anyway, I would go with one of the ATI cards over Nvidia, I really just haven't been impressed with Nvidia lately. Exactly which one depends entirely on your budget

[IonDragon]

I forget the basic IRQ layout, but I don't remember RAM even having an IRQ number, though I could just be forgetting something.Here you go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrupt_request), hope that helps.

[Erloas]

Here you go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrupt_request), hope that helps.

Yeah, I looked it up right after I posted, I figured it wasn't worth editing in unless someone wanted to argue about it. And I was right, there is no IRQ channel assigned to RAM, and it wouldn't be on an open channel because if there was any need for it it would always have to have it and would have its own defined channel.

[factotum]

However, IRQL_NOT_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL really just means that a hardware driver has ended up in an interrupt state it wasn't expecting. That can happen with faulty RAM simply because the fault causes the data the driver is storing about its current state to change randomly--it certainly isn't correct to say that this error is never the result of bad RAM.

[Brother Oni]

The only issue with under-volting RAM is that it will cause the RAM to have errors at times, errors that Memtest should be picking up. Of course if Memtest finds problems and you are under-volting you wouldn't know if it was low voltage, bad memory, or just too tight of memory timing.

If you remember from the last time I mentioned my computer problems, I've got Corsair DDR3 RAM.

Both sticks ran fine under Memtest for 15 passes at 1.5v, which is the recommended voltage.
My computer won't boot into windows 9/10 times at 1.5v (it hangs on the logo) and raising it to some website suggestions of 1.6-1.65v means it usually boots, but will lockup at random during use.

I've had to up the voltage to about 1.7v before I get any reasonable semblance of stability. I've set the timings to both auto and to manufacturer's recommendations - doesn't seem to make a difference.

[Erloas]

I suppose its possible, but the whole point of using programs like memtest is to find stability issues with the system. Its possible the program you used only tested for basic functionality and possibly didn't stress the timing or some other settings on the RAM (usually timing needs to be relaxed before speeds are reduced with stability issues).

If I remember right the last time I used a memory tester it has 2-3 different test options to check different aspects of the RAM. I suppose there are different programs that do different things. If a memory tester doesn't find problems with the memory, no matter what the cause is, then its failing as a tester.

[Lord Herman]

I tried running Memtest 86 twice, but both times the computer rebooted when the test reached about 48%. Any idea what might be wrong?


Edit: When shopping around for graphics cards, I saw several manufacturers for the GeForce GTX 460: EVGA, Asus, XpertVision, Gainward, Zotac, and a few others. Is there any difference between them? There are some small differences in pricing, but is there any other reason I should choose one over the other?

[IonDragon]

Something either power or RAM related. If you're cheap (as I am) you can go to a local store with a good return policy and purchase a new power supply, set it up and try again. If it fixes the problem, Hooray! Problem solved. If not, return it and purchase RAM.

Though I don't think I've ever had Memtest crash on me midway through a scan...

[Don Julio Anejo]

Edit: When shopping around for graphics cards, I saw several manufacturers for the GeForce GTX 460: EVGA, Asus, XpertVision, Gainward, Zotac, and a few others. Is there any difference between them? There are some small differences in pricing, but is there any other reason I should choose one over the other?
Yes, Asus is the best one. EVGA is... okayish. People say it's good, but then my EVGA 8800GT died on me after a year. Although I think that was the problem with that particular card, as a lot of people reported their EVGA 8800's dying.

Other good ones are Saphire and XFX.

[Lord Herman]

Ok, I've opened my PC and noted what the label on the power supply said.


Blue Storm II 500
AC Input 100-240 VAC ~8-4A 50-60Hz
DC Input +33V +5V +12V1 +12V2 -12V +5Vsb
Max Current Out 30A 30A 18A 18A 0.8A 2.5A
Max Combined Power 152W 480W 20W
Total Power 500W
Max Peak Power 530W

I also wrote down all the components:
EVGA motherboard
Intel Core2 Quad
nVidia GeForce 9800 GTX+
4x 1024mb DDR2 RAM
Hard disk drive
DVD player
DVD writer
Assorted flash card readers
12x12cm case fan


Edit:
Ok, I've ordered a 700W power supply. I'll see if that helps. If not, the store I ordered it from has a good return policy.

I also ordered a new monitor, because my dad (who is well versed in the arcane art of electronics) took apart my old one to see what was wrong, couldn't find any leaky capacitors, put it back together again, and lo! It broke down completely. Oh well, at least the new one is 3 inches bigger and has LED backlighting.

[Erloas]

After looking back a bit... do you have the newest drivers for your video card? Sometimes that can fix the polygon stretching problems as well. Though in some cases a driver that is 2-3 months old might actually be better. Though if you've been having some of this problem for a year, I assume you would have updated the drivers at some point.

Thats a pretty good power supply and I wouldn't be highly suspicious of it (like some other brands), but even the best can fail. 500W is all you would need with the system you are running. One thing to check though is to make sure your video card is the only thing on one of the two 12V rails (or if the 9800 has 2 power connectors then hook each one up to different rails). Some power supplies label which cable is using which rail, some don't. If the same cable from the power supply is going to your video card then your hard drive, optical drives, fans, and that sort of stuff shouldn't be connected to the same cable.

Also, with 4 sticks of RAM you might try two sticks, run Memtest, then switch to the other two sticks and run it again and see what happens. I know there was a while where a number of motherboards had stability issues when using 4 sticks of RAM. But it was a while ago and I don't remember when it was exactly or which motherboards had the most issues with it.

[Dmatix]

I'm rather pleased with my ATI radeon hd 5850. Wasn't too expensive (at least compared with the 5870 series), doesnt really overheat and is powerful enough to run SC2 on ultra. And it works well with Quad-cores,which you have.

[Jokasti]

I'll be making my first computer soon, but I'm still a hardware newb. I know what most of the parts I want are, but I am undecided on the graphics card. The three I've narrowed it down to are:
Asus (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121367)
PowerColor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131344)
HIS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161327)
Which one would be the best? This (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131631)will be my mobo, if that matters.

[IonDragon]

I don't do advise on purchasing components. They teach you that when you start working at a repair shop. Unless you're having me build it for you, you should go out and do your won research otherwise you could end up hating what you got, or it could not be compatible and you could come blame me.

[Erloas]

Considering that all three cards are the same card, just by different companies, there shouldn't be any issue with recommending one.

As for which one I would recommend... there isn't much of a difference between them. From the looks of it the HIS is the only using using the reference cooling design, which probably means the other two run a little bit quitter or cooler. How much more I would have no idea. The PC one has a very slight OC compared to the others (though it is likely they would all hit about the same OC point if you did it via the CCC instead of using the factory settings), but the Asus has the longer warranty.

And actually I would probably got with the Gigabyte card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125317) because it is slightly cheaper, has the longer warranty, I like the brand, and while it doesn't have displayport, its also not something I would be using.

[Lord Herman]

Well, my new monitor and power supply arrived today.

The new power supply didn't solve the problem. I still get the stretched polygons, and Memtest 86 still reboots the computer when it reaches 50%. Haven't had any blue screens yet, but it's too early to know.

I think the first thing I'll do is replace the graphics card, unless someone knows an easier (and cheaper) solution. That should take care of the graphical mess. If I still get blue screens of death, I might look into replacing my RAM as well.

The GeForce GTX 460 does look good, and not too expensive. The 480 is a bit too expensive for me at around $500.


The new power supply is a lot quieter than the old one, though. I knew one of the fans in my PC was making strange noises, but now I'm sure it was the one in my old power supply.

My new monitor is very nice too, by the way. 23 inch, 1920x1080, and the LED backlighting makes large, solid areas of colour look much more even. The only trouble is that it was hard enough to find wallpapers for 1680x1050, but damn near impossible for 1920x1080.

[IonDragon]

Test each stick of RAM one at a time, and if you find that only one causes a hang/reboot that's your culprit and you only need to replace that one.

[Lord Herman]

I'll try that. If one of them turns out to be broken, is there any harm in taking it out and leaving only three sticks until I get around to buying a new one?

[SMEE]

My feelings are tingling towards the PSU.
What's your PSU specs? It might not be giving enough power for your computer, which, by the specs you posted, requires a fair bit.

[Lord Herman]

I just replaced my old 500W PSU with a new 700W one, and that didn't solve the problem.

The graphical problems started after my broken GeForce 9800 GTX2 was replaced with a GeForce 9800 GTX+ by the repair shop (the motherboard was also replaced). I suspect my old power supply was broken in some way, but replacing it didn't fix this problem. So I strongly suspect that the new card they gave me was broken from the start.

[IonDragon]

I'll try that. If one of them turns out to be broken, is there any harm in taking it out and leaving only three sticks until I get around to buying a new one?
Shouldn't be, though 'they' recommend you run an even number of sticks and match brand/size/speed on the... um... I forget the word. You've got slot 0,1,2,3. You want to match slot 0 and 2, you also want 1 and 3 to match. I've never seen a definitive explanation as to why though.

[mangosta71]

The graphical problems started after my broken GeForce 9800 GTX2 was replaced with a GeForce 9800 GTX+ by the repair shop (the motherboard was also replaced). I suspect my old power supply was broken in some way, but replacing it didn't fix this problem. So I strongly suspect that the new card they gave me was broken from the start.

It could simply be that the GTX+ requires a different driver than your old GTX2.

[Lord Herman]

It could simply be that the GTX+ requires a different driver than your old GTX2.

I've updated my drivers several times since, and the updater I got was listed as compatible with the entire 6000, 7000, 8000 and 9000 line of cards.

[Erloas]

Yeah, for the most part both ATI and Nvidia have a single driver (download) that covers the last 3-4 series of cards they've released for each OS. The install utility picks the right part of the driver for you specific card when you install.

Although you could try one of the driver cleaner programs to completely remove all of your Nvidia drivers and re-install them. Sometimes an old file might have a problem but the normal install doesn't over-write it because it has the correct file version.

As for testing the RAM, I would test them in pairs rather then singly. RAM runs in a dual channel mode most of the time where it treats two different sticks of RAM as a single larger stick with half the latency and retrieve times as a single stick. If you run 3 sticks then all 3 will run in single channel mode, not 2 in dual channel and 1 in single channel. And if you do find a problem and have to replace one, unless you get another stick that is almost identical to the one you already have, it will not run in dual channel mode either. That is why most RAM is sold in pairs. Chances are if you do find a bad stick you'll have to change out its pair at the same time anyway, so you may as well test it as such.

[IonDragon]

See, I knew there was a reason!

[Lord Herman]

<snip>
Although you could try one of the driver cleaner programs to completely remove all of your Nvidia drivers and re-install them. Sometimes an old file might have a problem but the normal install doesn't over-write it because it has the correct file version.
</snip>

I remembered I'd started doing that once, accidentally uninstalled my network driver as well, and went back to a restore point, never actually using the driver sweeper thing. So I tried that again today, this time without the network driver muck-up. It didn't work, unfortunately. Starcraft II still has polygon stretchings.

And Victoria II, which I've been waiting for all week, has it too. Even though it uses the same engine as Europa Universalis III and Hearts of Iron III, both of which work fine. Bleh.

So, I've bitten the bullet and ordered a new graphics card. I ended up buying an Asus GeForce GTX 470. Quite a bit more expensive than the 460, but available from reputable shops in my country (instead of the one dodgy-looking site that had the 460). And it should be here in one to two working days.

Why do I always order things on Fridays?

[Lord Herman]

Sorry for the double post, but I thought I'd let you all know I got my new graphics card, and it's working perfectly. Thanks for the help, everyone! :smallsmile: