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View Full Version : Smart/secure ways to hide/protect yourself while sleeping in Vampire the Masquerade



Brock Samson
2010-08-03, 06:30 PM
So far our storyteller hasn't even asked about our sleeping arrangements yet, but that doesn't mean at some point he's not going to have someone invade our homes while we're sleeping to try and off us. My character is quite rich (Resources 5), a Brujah with Presence 5, Celerity 4, and Potence 4, I have a retainer that's basically my manservant to help watch over me during the day, as well as 3 blood bound German Shepherds. Still, I feel like I need more.

So, I was wondering, what various ways are there to hide/protect yourself while sleeping?

Some things I was considering:
Installing an indoor pool, and have a large/long step that runs around the bottom of the pool, which has a secret door where I can climb in at night so I'm not only hidden, but under water (so first someone would have to find me, and they couldn't just set my place on fire and expect me dead).

Sleeping in the walls of the house. Very hidey.

I'd love to hear more ideas though. What's everyone got?

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-03, 06:38 PM
Well. In our group, the gangrel slept in the ground, the lasombra had a time locked underground vault, the social toreador had many guards, and the badass toreador had a few guards and enough reflexes to kill anything and go back to sllep

Crossblade
2010-08-03, 06:46 PM
Sleeping under water might not be the best idea. One or more leaks, and a big enough barricade and you'll be sleeping with the fishes 24 hours a day instead of 8.
(Yes, I made the pun first)

If you want to be very paranoid, if you're so rich, higher 2 or 5 more man servants. Then you can be watched over in 8 hour shifts by 1 or 2 people or in 4 hour shifts by 1 person.
(Hrm, that came out more confusing that it should have... 3 shifts, each 8 hours. 3x8=24hrs or 6 shifts, each 4 hours = 24hrs)

Or steal ideas from popular vampire stories. Have a large stone coffin... so large that it has a fake door (or 2) in the bottom of it. Sleep in the bottom section under the fact door(s).

Sleep in a room with HUNDREDS of coffins. Make sure they're not wood though, or they'll just burn them all. It could take hours to find you if they have to open hundreds of locked and bolted coffins.

comicshorse
2010-08-03, 06:48 PM
Sleeping in a completely flooded room is good ( you don't need to breathe after all). Poison gas is even better ( if hard to get hold of) .
With resources 5 you have money so its time to put it to use. Get the best locks and alarms you can afford. Make sure the room you sleep in is basically a bank-vault and make contacts among the police so you're a priority for investigations of your alarm going off.

The White Knight
2010-08-03, 07:16 PM
Poison gas is even better ( if hard to get hold of) .

A couple of dots in Science should give one the chemical know-how to just make some out of otherwise inconspicuous materials.

deuxhero
2010-08-03, 07:19 PM
Sleep in a room with HUNDREDS of coffins. Make sure they're not wood though, or they'll just burn them all. It could take hours to find you if they have to open hundreds of locked and bolted coffins.

If a vampire did that I'd just check for the heaviest one, so put correctly weighted dummies in each.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-03, 07:25 PM
Two dots Protean. Done.

Also try: a couple of dots of Chimerstry, Serpentis, or Thaumaturgy: Path of Blood.

Crossblade
2010-08-03, 07:33 PM
If a vampire did that I'd just check for the heaviest one, so put correctly weighted dummies in each.

You've never seen a casket carried before, have you?
I suppose that's not a bad thing...

It takes 6-8 people to carry one for a reason. They're heavy even while empty.

Riffington
2010-08-03, 08:49 PM
Electronically-targetted machineguns. When anyone walks in, guards look at the images and delete any people they see.
They don't see anyone with obfuscate, so the guns fire.

cupkeyk
2010-08-03, 08:55 PM
Allies can Cast defense of the sacred haven for you too. (Is that what its called? I play VTR now)

W3bDragon
2010-08-03, 08:58 PM
Get a piece of wood with a flat bottom and attach it to your chest to make it look like you're staked. As a last line of defense, it might confuse your enemies long enough for you to get the drop on them, assuming your humanity is high enough to remain awake for a bit.

derfenrirwolv
2010-08-03, 10:27 PM
Do you own any rental properties? One of the most effective things you can do is to have a dozen or so buildings that you COULD be in, so a search for you (by looking or just burning the place down) takes multiple attempts per night.

Buy a man sized safe that opens from the inside. Put pressurized tanks inside filled with chlorine gas. Sleep in a steel bunker under the bed. Since you have a potence of 4 there's no locking mechanism... you can either lift 2,000 pounds or you can't.

The bottom of a lake.

A cave with a lot of bats and poor air quality.

Its hard to describe without drawing, but an insanely heavy rock thats easy to open from the inside but hard to open from the outside

deuxhero
2010-08-03, 11:31 PM
You've never seen a casket carried before, have you?
I suppose that's not a bad thing...

It takes 6-8 people to carry one for a reason. They're heavy even while empty.

You don't need to pick it up. If it's standing you could push at it (and if it is empty, you will notice it). Sitting down is a bit of an issue.


Come to think of it, don't bother with that idea. If you are within a mile or so of a hardware store (and how many people aren't) the effort is worthless if they grab a drill.

avr
2010-08-03, 11:32 PM
Who wants to wake up soaking wet every night? Just fill a room below ground level with CO2 from a fire suppression system or something.

Escape tunnels with swinging axe blades or whatever are a classic. Make it so you need celerity 4 to get past them safely.

Also remember: As an elder vampire, you are an evil overlord. The usual advice (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) applies.

FatR
2010-08-04, 02:10 AM
The only way that works against serious opponents is secrecy. Adding costly and noticeable precautions only makes your location conspicous, and whatever defenses you install, your enemies can send enough cannonfodder to dismantle, simply because you're giving the initiative to them. Living in a mini-fortress only works if you're a figurehead and a public face for more powerful (and actually active) vampires. And in crossover games most of the other supernaturals have ways to make physical obsctacles meaningless.

So either sleep in the earth and change locations every night, or have many havens and change locations every night.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-08-04, 03:20 AM
If the storyteller wants to kill you in your sleep its going to happen. If your location is a fortress they send in an army if its secret they find it.

I had an idea once of having a Forensic Scientist a close personal friend and sleeping in the police morgue. If your enemy has enough firepower to assault a police station your screwed anyway.

Another one was to simply sleep in the back of a truck, my servant would drive from sunrise to sunset. If your on the movie its much harder for your enemies to corner you.

On the subject of having multiple coffins in the room, booby trap the others if a frag grenade rips a few grunts to shreds when they force open the first coffin those left alive will think twice before opening another.

You really only need a reasonable level of secrecy, security, and an escape route. You want a good humanity so you can wake up and make a run for it when trouble starts. You don't need the security to stop a serious incursion just slow it down while you run away.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-04, 03:21 AM
Rituals like Wake With Evening's Freshness, which let you wake up when an intruder comes.

There's an even funnier one that ensures that whenever people enter your haven, it is dusk now. Wait, what?

Quincunx
2010-08-04, 04:52 AM
Put some blood sources between you and the Potence trap, on the off-chance that you have to stumble back to your haven, drained, at the end of the night. Entombing yourself since you're unable to burn blood for Potence would be counterproductive. For you, the ghouled dogs should probably work as that fail-safe.

Maybe buy a building that used to be a bank and remodel it to suit your taste, and put in a good cover story for when a clueless mortal wanders in trying to find the bathroom and says to herself, "What the bleep have I just walked into here?"--or at least put in some better signage for said bathroom. (Yes creepy nightclub in Tallinn, I mean you.)

Known players' havens:
Lasombra: Under a wealthy church with ghouled clergy and hundreds of candles and torches. Few vampires could face that much fire.
Gangrel: Slept in the lake. Assaulted by creature of black tendrils. (Lasombra blamed.)
Brujah/Malkavian: Manor trapped with Potence doors and Dementation locks.
Cappadocian/???: In the boneyard. . .somewhere. Reports of things attacking grave robbers were not traced to any particular Animalism-using clan member.
Malkavian/Gangrel: Buried themselves at the fringes of the towns. One dug deep and the other woke easily. Both loved to hunt.

Cespenar
2010-08-04, 05:04 AM
Sleep in a room with HUNDREDS of coffins. Make sure they're not wood though, or they'll just burn them all. It could take hours to find you if they have to open hundreds of locked and bolted coffins.

This is, while not foolproof, one of the most effective ideas. Let them be massive stone sarcophagi instead, and you're done. Seal them too, so that only the superhumanly strong can open them and mooks can't help you rush it through.

Psyx
2010-08-04, 05:05 AM
The only way that works against serious opponents is secrecy. Adding costly and noticeable precautions only makes your location conspicous, and whatever defenses you install, your enemies can send enough cannonfodder to dismantle, simply because you're giving the initiative to them. Living in a mini-fortress only works if you're a figurehead and a public face for more powerful (and actually active) vampires. And in crossover games most of the other supernaturals have ways to make physical obsctacles meaningless.

So either sleel in the earth and change locations every night, or have many haves and change locations every night.


^This.

Multiple havens or Protean 2 FTW.

Although if you must hide in a hole in the ground, may I recommend buying a closed bank, and using the vault?

Or hide in the attic. Perhaps in a chimney. Every looks in the basement. Nobody checks upstairs for a Vampire. You can't escape from basements. Roof-tops are easy.

comicshorse
2010-08-04, 06:47 AM
The only way that works against serious opponents is secrecy. Adding costly and noticeable precautions only makes your location conspicous, and whatever defenses you install, your enemies can send enough cannonfodder to dismantle, simply because you're giving the initiative to them. Living in a mini-fortress only works if you're a figurehead and a public face for more powerful (and actually active) vampires. And in crossover games most of the other supernaturals have ways to make physical obsctacles meaningless.

I'm going to disagree with this ..........a bit. While I feel this is a good point it assumes that you're enemies will have an army. Many groups trying to assault a vampire (hunters, low-level Sabbat packs, anarch diablerists) will be stoppable by fortress type security. Even those enemies who do have an army will think twice before deploying them in such a blatant way as it stirs up all sorts of trouble and leaves all sort of evidence pointing at them.
Of course if you're opponents are massively supernaturally powerful and can avoid the defences with powers then yes secrecy is very much your best bet. Then again if they're supernaturally powerful they probably have powers to hunt you down.
Also try living in an area where massive security is common. A Lasombra I played lived in a exclusive, gated community in L.A. There he would have stood out if his house DIDN'T have electic fences, gaurd dogs and security camera's.

P.S
Thaumaturgy, Necromancy and Koldunic Sorcery or all great for creating defences that cannot be seen by the mortals and probably can't be understood by your attackers. If you don't have them yourself but have a friend who you ABSOLUTELY trust who has them there are lots of nasty things that can de done to protect you

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-04, 06:57 AM
Two dots Protean. Done.


Multiple havens or Protean 2 FTW.

And how does having razor sharp claws help you safely sleep through the day? :smallconfused:

I think you mean Protean 3 "Earth Meld," right?

Dragosai
2010-08-04, 07:41 AM
Already mentioned but I think it's pretty hard to beat the good old bank vault, a good security system with some guards as well as automated camera/gun turrets. Also since you are richie rich have several places like this around town is a good idea to keep would be attackers guessing at what location you sleep at on any given day. If you need more then that then you are playing in a style of game I know I would not enjoy. Even what I mentioned above might be overkill depending on the game and storyteller. Basically you could spend real time hours and days thinking up the most elaborate secure place to sleep and it may not matter if your ST is never planning on making that part of the game. I guess that could change if your character likes to make a lot of enemies and/or if the game is going to have a lot of "coffin crashin" in it. I would talk with your ST and find out if any planning is needed, or if that sort of thing is just hand waved since it will just not come up in their game or the other side where they are running a vamp game all about home defense which does not seem like fun to me, if I want that much tactical play I would swap to a table top mini strat game.

Eldan
2010-08-04, 07:51 AM
If you have a lot of money, get a time-locked bank vault. Done.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-04, 08:36 AM
And how does having razor sharp claws help you safely sleep through the day? :smallconfused:

I think you mean Protean 3 "Earth Meld," right?

common mistake. In Requiem they swapped those powers round.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-04, 08:40 AM
If you don't have them yourself but have a friend who you ABSOLUTELY trust
This being vampire... said friend will probably end up staking you.

Autonomy
2010-08-04, 03:59 PM
There's plenty of good ones spread across the books, without getting into any of the overly dungeoneering-esque methods above. I quite like the bodybag + lake combo from Guide to the Anarchs and the nest under the bridge mentioned in the Giovanni clan novel (scaffolding and tarpaulin covering it, vampire attached to the underside of the bridge).

Your pool idea has merit but suffers from a number of drawbacks, namely the fact that you're going to have to get someone to build it and that someone will most likely be mortal. To modify the idea slightly, simply have an overhang built under one end and you'll be safe without having the liability of the pool engineer wondering exactly what that rich guy was going to do with his secret compartment under the pool.

comicshorse
2010-08-04, 05:49 PM
Your pool idea has merit but suffers from a number of drawbacks, namely the fact that you're going to have to get someone to build it and that someone will most likely be mortal. To modify the idea slightly, simply have an overhang built under one end and you'll be safe without having the liability of the pool engineer wondering exactly what that rich guy was going to do with his secret compartment under the pool.

Or use Dominate to replace his memories of that with something much more mundane

Hawriel
2010-08-04, 09:43 PM
Build a panaic room. Your big rich bastard. Alot of rich peaple have panic rooms. Make one under the basment of your house(s). It will of corse be a secret room. You can have micro security cameras in the house that are on a wireless fead to the room. Also have a mini fridge with blood. Just in case. And a play station 3.

Cespenar
2010-08-05, 12:09 AM
Build a panaic room. Your big rich bastard. Alot of rich peaple have panic rooms. Make one under the basment of your house(s). It will of corse be a secret room. You can have micro security cameras in the house that are on a wireless fead to the room. Also have a mini fridge with blood. Just in case. And a play station 3.

Even a panic room has to have a ventilation of some sorts. Find that, flood the place with holy water. :smalltongue:

Saurus33
2010-08-05, 01:25 AM
We're assuming this guy is a vampire, he can be in a hard vacuum for all he cares about ventilation.

Psyx
2010-08-05, 02:45 AM
If you make somewhere impossible to get into. It's impossible to get out of. Building an impregnable castle is essentially a pointless exercise, that does nothing but advertises your presence and shows the other vampires that you're weak and afraid.


I've had great fun in various games simply laying siege to such places... or bulldozing the building and filling any holes in the ground with concrete. Vampires need to feed, eventually. Plus you have an entire 8+ hours a day to work on breeching the defences while the corpse just lays there.

Cespenar
2010-08-05, 03:18 AM
We're assuming this guy is a vampire, he can be in a hard vacuum for all he cares about ventilation.

Well, a panic room isn't really foolproof, so it's a moot point, but yes, you're correct on that.

comicshorse
2010-08-05, 07:18 AM
I've had great fun in various games simply laying siege to such places... or bulldozing the building and filling any holes in the ground with concrete. Vampires need to feed, eventually. Plus you have an entire 8+ hours a day to work on breeching the defences while the corpse just lays there.

If the vampire has no ghouls or mortal security stopping you doing that he deserves to die. Hell someone calling the police would do


Even a panic room has to have a ventilation of some sorts. Find that, flood the place with holy water.

Unless the hunter has True Faith ( which is incredibly rare) holy water does nothing to vampires in the Masquerade.

Psyx
2010-08-05, 07:45 AM
^Like those are a problem!

And how many people call the police when a construction team turn up, erect some plywood around a block and start demolishing the place? Especially if you've already pulled strings in local government to get the relevant paperwork?

There's a reason that fortresses and static defences fell out of favour: Essentially, they don't work very well. So you might as well enjoy your unlife and have a sumptuous suite with a bed the size of a small country and a ton of velvet curtains. Better that than be snubbed by everyone else for sleeping in a swimming pool every night.

I'm not saying 'leave the doors unlocked', but over the top security is pointless. If you're that concerned, then you need to base defences on distraction and being covert, rather than with a fortress mentality.

If you're a Gangrel, then live in the dirt. But for everyone else; appearances are critical in kindred society. Even a brujah looses respect for being a paranoid 'scaredy-cat'.

comicshorse
2010-08-05, 07:50 AM
^Like those are a problem!

And how many people call the police when a construction team turn up, erect some plywood around a block and start demolishing the place?

.

Well quite a few if they live there


Even a brujah looses respect for being a paranoid 'scaredy-cat'

That's very much dependent on your style of play. In most games I've been in a Kindred would lose respect for not being smart enough to take the proper precautions

Eldan
2010-08-05, 07:53 AM
Could you live in a mobile home with a ghoul driver?

comicshorse
2010-08-05, 08:03 AM
Absolutely. A good idea for a Kindred with a limited budget, give up security but gain mobility and your eneemies are never sure where you'll be.
A friend played a Ravnos who used exactly that trick

Eldan
2010-08-05, 08:05 AM
Well, you can still cheese up the security on that thing. Reinforce the walls, bullet-proof glass, mount a few hidden cameras outside, make a secret compartment to live in. Basically, what you'd do with a house, but on smaller scale, and mobile.

Psyx
2010-08-05, 08:57 AM
Worked just fine in 'Near Dark':

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093605/


"Well quite a few if they live there"

You obviously don't demolish the building if its shared (Unless you want to burn it, of course; which also works great). I think it's safe to assume that this is blindingly obvious. But if the kindred is dumb enough to share a building, then it's generally even easier to infiltrate it.


Another classic: Turn up in utility van in boiler suits, with sleeves rolled up and oily hands. Find water inlet for inevitable sprinkler system, which will be outside the property. Disconnect. Drain. Refill with petrol.

Add fire.

Profit.


There is no fortress that can't be burned down, broken, blown up, raided during daylight, or filled with concrete. If all else fails: Drive a fuel tanker into the building and toss in a zippo. Job done.

Cespenar
2010-08-05, 09:01 AM
If you're really rich, launch yourself into orbit each dawn via your own space shuttle. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2010-08-05, 09:07 AM
And hope someone hasn't sabotaged it. I wonder how much Agg you take from direct exposure to the sun's rays without even the atmosphere in the way?:smallbiggrin:

Caliphbubba
2010-08-05, 09:09 AM
I played a character very similar to the one you are playing.

He had several havens that he rotated around to, in no real pattern.

most of them contained a sub-basement room that took his great strength to get into...just a massive concrete and steel door without mechanical means to move it, coupled with the room being filled with a noble gas, most of the time Argon.

comicshorse
2010-08-05, 09:25 AM
Worked just fine in 'Near Dark':

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093605/


"Well quite a few if they live there"

You obviously don't demolish the building if its shared (Unless you want to burn it, of course; which also works great). I think it's safe to assume that this is blindingly obvious. But if the kindred is dumb enough to share a building, then it's generally even easier to infiltrate it.


I was referring to the Kindred's ghouls/mortal staff whio will definitely object to you knocking down their master's home and will notice infilitrators


Another classic: Turn up in utility van in boiler suits, with sleeves rolled up and oily hands. Find water inlet for inevitable sprinkler system, which will be outside the property. Disconnect. Drain. Refill with petrol.

Add fire.


Okay that's a good one. :smallsmile:
Though as you're still not in the Kindred's home how do you add the fire ?
And I presume as this will affect all the houses supplied by that inlet you're all right with burning everybody in those houses to death to get one vampire.
And that's assuming the vampires inner haven has sprinklers. He might prefer halon or sleep underwater.


There is no fortress that can't be burned down, broken, blown up, raided during daylight, or filled with concrete. If all else fails: Drive a fuel tanker into the building and toss in a zippo. Job done.


Well that's what people have gates for.
I kinda agree but all these methods are going to get you labelled as terrorists and hunted down by pretty much every law-enforcement agency on the planet as well as the Kindred.

Cespenar
2010-08-05, 10:49 AM
And hope someone hasn't sabotaged it. I wonder how much Agg you take from direct exposure to the sun's rays without even the atmosphere in the way?:smallbiggrin:

Well, anyone could have sabotaged/betrayed/bought out/hacked into/scried anything, with that attitude.

Not that it's a wrong attitude. :smallbiggrin:

Psyx
2010-08-05, 10:56 AM
I was referring to the Kindred's ghouls/mortal staff whio will definitely object to you knocking down their master's home and will notice infilitrators

Oh: You kill those. Or Dominate them, or whatever. Knock on the door dressed in work-wear with all the right paperwork. Then quietly deal with them.



Though as you're still not in the Kindred's home how do you add the fire ?


Molotov through the letterbox?
Yes; the player might have thought of that in his essay on haven defence, but if so, then we're reaching the point where he's literally written an essay on security engineering, which isn't what the game is really about. It's why haven security is better handled abstractly, in my opinion. It saves a lot of bother, as well as people using a lot of out-of-character faffing about. And if the GM wants to break into your property anyway, they either will, or they resort to dice-rolling against a difficulty they assess the security to be set at. So there's no real need for details.

I'm sure we could easily come up with another 6 ways of setting off the sprinklers, though.



And I presume as this will affect all the houses supplied by that inlet you're all right with burning everybody in those houses to death to get one vampire.
And that's assuming the vampires inner haven has sprinklers. He might prefer halon or sleep underwater.


If they're not in the same building, their sprinklers won't go off, and if they do there won't be a flame to ignite the fuel. And in my experience, people killing vampires (other vampires, religious maniacs, werewolves...) don't usually tend to worry about extra casualties anyway.

I think that halon fire suppression systems aren't exactly legal these days, are they? Banned for environmental reasons in a lot of places.

And if the whole place is ablaze, being three foot under water isn't going to help very much.




Well that's what people have gates for.

Gates don't stop 20 ton trucks. Heck: They don't even stop cars, usually. Big lumps of concrete do, but this isn't Baghdad, and they tend to stick out a bit.

In local games, so many problems have been solved via fuel tankers that it's now considered kind of passée.



I kinda agree but all these methods are going to get you labelled as terrorists and hunted down by pretty much every law-enforcement agency on the planet as well as the Kindred.


Trucks sometimes accidentally crash. It could happen anywhere... And if no human remains are found then it'll reduce the heat rather a lot.

Arson isn't really a terrorist offence either. Remember that this is the WoD: It's nastier than our world, with higher crime rates and an increased decay of society. It makes such crimes easier to get away with. So does having the local police and mayor's office in your pocket. And if you aren't using your connections to do this kind of thing, then you ain't a real vampire (or you're a gangrel...).

Building a bigger castle is just asking for someone to build a bigger catapult, really.

tyckspoon
2010-08-05, 11:20 AM
I think that halon fire suppression systems aren't exactly legal these days, are they? Banned for environmental reasons in a lot of places.


I find it ironic you mention this in the same post as reasons why performing blatantly illegal and unsubtle acts against other vampires may not get people in any particular trouble. If you've got the connections to get firebombing a mansion with a fuel truck overlooked, you can probably get a halon system.. not that you strictly need to. There are at least a dozen alternate non-water-based fire suppression agents you could use- put your sleeping space inside an art gallery or library space and using an inert gas fire-suppression system won't even look out of place.

comicshorse
2010-08-05, 11:25 AM
I don't totally disagree with anything you've written. I think pretty much it comes down to a game style difference. Some games have burning down your opponents haven and killing him as a viable tactic


In local games, so many problems have been solved via fuel tankers that it's now considered kind of passée.


Others have that as being the kind of thing that's gonna get you hunted down until the day you die.

Neither are, at the end of the day, more right than the other

Psyx
2010-08-05, 11:27 AM
I mention it because plumbing an illegal system into your abode is a worthy reason for the building inspectors to pop over. In fact; most of the over-the-top security measures will require inspection by some authorities.

And they you have it... with the right paperwork and influences, you've just walked right into their haven.

An art gallery is a great cover for having good security, but somewhat hampered by the fact that it requires you to have people wandering around it at the time you need it to be secure: During the day.


There's also the 'there's a gas leak' thing. Get the place evacuated and then go in. Or maybe just leak some gas. BOOM! We told you there was a gas leak... lucky the place was evacuated, eh?

Rolled up sleeves, utility company ID and a clipboard are the best weapons of a vampire hunter. And fire, obviously...

Psyx
2010-08-05, 11:31 AM
I don't totally disagree with anything you've written. I think pretty much it comes down to a game style difference. Some games have burning down your opponents haven and killing him as a viable tactic.

And if it's not that kind of game, then there's no point going into intricate detail as regards haven security. Live in a penthouse, and have a bit of style. No Toreador worth his salt is going to want to sleep in a pond, anyhow. It's... undignified.

And if it is that kind of game, then the rule is: Make sure you don't get caught! :smallbiggrin:

LibraryOgre
2010-08-05, 11:49 AM
Given your strength, I would suggest something that will make it difficult for others not so endowed to follow. You might look into something like a deep well, with a U at the bottom and a room on the other side. Your celerity and Potence will make is simple for you to climb to the bottom of the well, walk underwater, then emerge in the relative comfort of your dry room. Others CAN get to it, but it's not easy.

My old Brujah (who eventually had to leave town) got by with a basement apartment and a four-poster bed. He sealed off the windows (paper, then foil, then screen, then furniture), and had hangings around his bed. He "worked nights" (mostly beating up drug dealers for money; he purposefully, though somewhat ironically, emulated Angel and Spike), and had only been a vampire for a couple of years.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-08-05, 11:50 AM
I mention it because plumbing an illegal system into your abode is a worthy reason for the building inspectors to pop over. In fact; most of the over-the-top security measures will require inspection by some authorities.

And they you have it... with the right paperwork and influences, you've just walked right into their haven.
What vampire in his right mind allows building inspectors into his Haven? :smallconfused:

Seriously, if you haven't placed some solid bribes to keep your place from getting "official inspections" then you're doing it wrong.

More importantly, complicated Haven defenses are prone to failure. It's hard to screw up a block of concrete that requires Potence to move, while it's much easier for a pool to spring a leak or a gas-seal to leak. Ghouls are good to have because they're unbribeable - LV3 Blood Bond says so.
Really, all you need is a comfortable home protected by Ghoul Bodyguards & solid bribes and a single underground Safe Room which has no ventiliation or pipes and can survive an indirect strike with a nuke. Bad comes to worst, you're sealed in a hardened structure until your reserves pry you out.

Also: it's not the worst idea in the world to have a backdoor or two. Keeping a set of demolition equipment in your Safe Room to blast out into the sewers "in case of emergency" is a reasonable precaution when you have Resource 5.

Psyx
2010-08-05, 12:01 PM
What vampire in his right mind allows building inspectors into his Haven?

One that doesn't want a day-time summons for a court appearance?

Sure: You can bribe people, but so can your foes. And it's generally easier to encourage people to act legally (ie by bringing down an inspection) than illegally (to make the problem go away). And if that happens... then we're having an influence war; which is more like what the game is about sometimes.

So the building inspectors have been bribed. How about the fire service? Gas board? water board? Police? RSPCA? Child protection services? It's kind of impossible to head off everything in our modern world.

Essentially; I believe intricate and overly detailed haven security to be a bit of a waste of OOC and IC effort, and an enormous chore. I'd rather handle it with a few dots on a bit of paper, and spend time on the game. If the GM wants a haven-busting plot hammer, they can do it. And if a GM wants to kill you in your haven, they can do that too, and nothing is going to stop them.

My own 'bad experience' consisted of having a bank vault to sleep in and some ghouls upstairs, and a top of the line security system worth a fortune. A hunter strike team burst in and kidnapped my ghouls, despite everything, because they were super-elite and would have done so whatever I'd done, because the GM wanted it to happen. These days; I play a gangrel and don't have to think about it.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-05, 12:05 PM
Can't get the inspectors in to spot all the suspicious and probably illegal defences? No problem.

Phone in a Dirty-Bomb threat, job done.

Nerd-o-rama
2010-08-05, 12:07 PM
It seems like, when it comes to bluffing your way into a Vampire's haven, it comes down to "who the attacker has bribed/assassinated" vs. "who the Vampire has bribed/Dominated/Ghouled", and which one is more effective.

A Vamp with Resources 5, Presence 5, and Connections out his non-functional ying-yang is going to be almost impossible to get close enough to with just a plumber's license and a smile. A penniless-yet-proud Gangrel, yeah, he should probably just take a dirt nap in a random spot every day.

EDIT: or if GMs are just going to railroad your ass out of your haven like Psyx's apparently did. If that's going to happen, yes this is kind of a moot point, but that's down to GMing style. Or lack thereof.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-08-05, 12:11 PM
One that doesn't want a day-time summons for a court appearance?

Sure: You can bribe people, but so can your foes. And it's generally easier to encourage people to act legally (ie by bringing down an inspection) than illegally (to make the problem go away). And if that happens... then we're having an influence war; which is more like what the game is about sometimes.

So the building inspectors have been bribed. How about the fire service? Gas board? water board? Police? RSPCA? Child protection services? It's kind of impossible to head off everything in our modern world.
Actually it's quite simple.
(1) Bribe the Chief Prosecutor of your locality; Chief of Police too, if you want

(2) Have your Doorman Ghoul refuse to admit anyone who demands entrance.

(3) If a local agency tries to bring an enforcement action, the Chief Prosecutor will refuse to do so - "not worth our time;" without a warrant or a court order there's nothing they can legally do.

(4) In the event you are called to appear, send your Ghoul Lawyer to handle things. Bad comes to worst, bribe the judge.

That means anyone else who tries to get in will have to do so either illegally or after throwing enough weight around that you can figure out who is gunning for you and take them out.
Tl;dr : identify chokepoints and secure them. You don't need to bribe everyone - just the gatekeepers :smallamused:

I'm sorry to hear about your experience - jerk GMs ruin everything - but that doesn't mean it's that hard to secure a Haven. If it were, there would be a lot fewer vampires running things.

OldFart
2010-08-05, 01:13 PM
Instead of secrecy, you might try going the other direction - lair in a really public location. Something like a suite in a major office building, or in a hotel at an airport, or a hospital. Preferably several, complete with decoys. Your security system merely needs to be tough enough that it requires illegal tools and/or weapons to breach, plus several minions ready to blow the whistle on the "terrorist criminals" the moment someone tries.

Hunters, vamps, and all supernatural creatures have one thing in common - they need to stay hidden from the mortal world. Nothing blows that to heck faster than drawing the attention of Homeland Security. And at that point, the question is no longer "can I defeat my enemies?" but "can my enemies defeat the Justicars?"

Quincunx
2010-08-06, 02:31 AM
(with the gape-mouthed stare of the motley company in A Knight's Tale upon meeting a "writer") Yoo-til-i-tees? What's "utilities"? Most of Psyx's less fire-based tactics fall to flinders in the Dark Ages, and in the torch-lit world we had all made provision against fire. All the same, the pairing of vampires for haven defense does reflect a game where the biggest threat was often other supernaturals. Better the enemy you know than the one which pops out of thin air, mauls vampires into dust and body parts eldest-first, and then vanishes again and nobody knows why (or if they do they ain't telling). Even better when the enemy you know decides to go haven-diving during the downtime and the Storytellers have lots of briefs to choose from about what may have happened to said enemy--'brief' being the key word here since few of those ran to three sentences or more. Of course, "the seneschal tried to break into your haven" may mean that, or it may mean "a werewolf has learned how to disguise himself as a vampire" or "congratulations, you have been inflicted with the derangement of paranoia"--they can be just as brief in return.

Psyx
2010-08-06, 04:40 AM
I'm sorry to hear about your experience - jerk GMs ruin everything - but that doesn't mean it's that hard to secure a Haven. If it were, there would be a lot fewer vampires running things.


I'm not sorry; the GM was just being an idiot. There's nothing that can be done about that. If a GM wants a plot hammer it will appear. If they don't; it won't.

But my point remains: There is no point painfully writing down an essay about your haven's security, because unless it's being stormed by other PCs in an actual adventure, then the whole thing essentially comes down to a difficulty being set for a couple of dice rolls. So you've wasted several hours of time possibly doing something that's even outside your character's knowledge and ability (if you have no Security skill, why are you using OOC knowledge? If you have 5 dots in it, why are you wasting your time trying to think of things when your character could do it a whole lot better?)

Why waste your time, when you can just say: "Hey GM. I want to spend 'x time and resources' on my haven security. How many dots is that?" and then get on with the roleplaying game itself.


Tl;dr : identify chokepoints and secure them. You don't need to bribe everyone - just the gatekeepers

I suspect that this might not work in the case of bomb threats, major gas leaks, et cetera. Call the press, too. There's always a way. I digress.

Also: Sure: Tell your ghouls not to let anyone in. And then what happens when you want the ballroom decorated? People *have* to have access at some point.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-08-06, 04:51 AM
Also: Sure: Tell your ghouls not to let anyone in. And then what happens when you want the ballroom decorated? People *have* to have access at some point.
Only have them come at night when you can personally supervise them.

I'm not arguing you can make an impregnable haven - obviously, you can't - but when you're running such a high-powered game as the OP's I can't help but feel that haven-assaults are not only going to occur, but they'll take more than "a few dice rolls" to resolve.

And precautions do matter, particularly in Vampire. Unless your ST is totally uninterested in anything but numbers, being able to set out the defenses of your haven give you a narrative chance to escape from even a very good strike force. Every extra layer of actions that the NPCs have to take to nuke your haven is another chance for you to ask the ST "hey, why didn't Security Layer X notice this?"

If all you have is a basement apartment, the ST is going to look you in the eye and say "they made a bunch of molotov cocktails and chucked them in the windows on the first floor. You burn." If you have a bomb shelter in the basement of a fortified compound, well, that's another story entirely :smallamused:

Psyx
2010-08-06, 05:15 AM
"I can't help but feel that haven-assaults are not only going to occur, but they'll take more than "a few dice rolls" to resolve. "

Vampire games ultimately have to rely on a little suspension of disbelief, because the reality of the situation is that pretty much everywhere burns, werewolves can pop out of the umbra and kill you whenever they like, and daylight haven raids on PCs are not interesting for players, because they can't interact with them.

Any NPCs storming a haven is essentially going to come down to a GM rolling dice and saying either 'you never wake up, stat a new character' or 'you wake up, your house is a bit trashed, and there's three dead bodies in the laser-death room'. The first makes for a poor game, the second is a plot hook that the GM probably wouldn't be soulless enough to kill you for if you'd failed to point out that your letterbox runs to a chute, which runs to a fire-proof box in your 'why you can't kill me while I sleep' essay.

Vampire isn't about numbers, but it's also not about being massively, massively tedious in recording every nuance of your daily routine. Where do fictional vampires live? Somewhere cool. Why don't they die in their sleep? Because it makes a bad story.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-08-06, 05:22 AM
Vampire games ultimately have to rely on a little suspension of disbelief, because the reality of the situation is that pretty much everywhere burns, werewolves can pop out of the umbra and kill you whenever they like, and daylight haven raids on PCs are not interesting for players, because they can't interact with them.
Emphasis added.

This is one of the most important points you raise (Modern construction need not burn; Werewolves need reflective surfaces to step sideways, barring mad h4x) yet it is orthogonal to the question raised by the OP. He is not asking whether raids on havens happen or whether they're fair; he wants to know what sort of precautions he could take in case of one.

If his ST sees the sort of preparation the OP is going through, he'll probably make a good story out of it rather than just say "rocks fall everyone dies;" this means considering how NPCs would learn about and interact with the various defenses. If the defenses are good, then perhaps the ST has a couple of near-misses to trigger a larger story; if they're bad then some upstart hunters might come a-knocking.