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The Glyphstone
2010-08-03, 10:11 PM
Consider the following: You are in control of an immobile artifact that grants the use of Wish as a spell-like ability at will. It has the following limitations:
-No use of the ability can be targeted outside of a 100 mile radius around the artifact's location.
-No object, item, or effect created by the ability can exist outside of that same 100 mile radius. Anything that does travel outside of that radius ceases to exist - items vanish, spells expire. This also affects instantaneous effects and abilities, so venturing out of range will strip away any inherent boni granted, or a person Raised or Reincarnated by a Wish will drop dead the instant they cross the boundary. Anything transmuted or transformed by the ability reverts to its original state.
-You are at least moderately benevolent towards your subjects (consider it a side effect of the artifact's usage).
-You cannot be affected by your own Wishes, and only you are capable of using the artifact.
-When you die, the next person to touch the artifact becomes the new user. Becoming undead, or otherwise immortal, counts as 'death' for purposes of severing your control, and it cannot be regaind.

For general setting purposes, consider extradimensional spaces, planar travel, and teleportation to be unavailable - though the Transport Travelers effect of a Wish can still be used from one point within the radius to another.

With these restrictions in mind, what sort of society or civilization might arise from this? The first answer to mind is obviously "Tippyverse", but the strict nature of its "range limit" would cut down sharply on the maximum size of said 'verse. There would be other civilizations and kingdoms in the world, but without the ability to effectively project its omnipotence, how would Wishkingdom interact with outside groups?

Alleran
2010-08-03, 10:17 PM
I'm sort of getting images of Elantris, here, from the novel by Brandon Sanderson. The Elantrians were almost like demigods (or at least enhanced far beyond mere mortals), but they didn't really care about other realms or kingdoms. If something threatened them, they probably would have destroyed it, but because nothing could really threaten them in the first place, nobody came near them. There was also no need for farming or agriculture in the four smaller "mortal" cities around Elantris, because the Elantrians just produced everything that people might need to survive via magic.

FMArthur
2010-08-03, 10:49 PM
Outside groups would be unable to influence the inside; they can't really trade because everything's made of wishes and wouldn't really need to trade. Nobody can make war on them with any hope of success, and they can't help the outside world except bring people inside.

Because of the incredible value of living there, it eventually would be overpopulated and likely have controlled population in place. Its society would likely evolve to be aloof and condescending to the poor unfortunate mortals outside, maybe even scornful. If they interacted with the outside world, there would be a huge class divide and some strife as a result, but they probably don't. People outside would be envious in the extreme. All of this may or may not be realistic, but it's exactly how every writer of fiction would make it.

Crossblade
2010-08-03, 10:59 PM
Unlimited access to clean running water and food for all within the kingdom.
Ever burning torches to light the streets at night.
Streets that don't crack, buildings that don't decay and no infestations of vermin, sickness or mold to defile the area.
If food can spawn from nothing-ness, then I suppose clothing could too, so no back goes unprotected from the weather...
Though weather controlled area would also be included.
Mundane jobs would be magically taken care of; waste magically disappears, graffiti mystically white washes away.
Non-sentient beings patrol to protect, but would deliver guilty parties to sentient beings for judgment and punishment.


Likely, the main job type as a result of all of the above would be either politically based, entertainment based or luxury crafting based. Higher education could also be encouraged with basic necessities covered for all. The only problem would be over population, but that can magically be covered too, with only allowing futility to occur once per female. (And adjusted per population quota)

Edit: FMArthur hit the nail on the head with the social evaluation.

Mentok
2010-08-04, 12:27 AM
I used something similar in a campaign. The kingdom attracted the best and the brightest, allowing for the citizens to not worry about funding for their magical research.

One option that hadn't been used in my campaign was bringing in artisans and using the wishes to bestow upon them immense bonuses to the Craft skill, which I believe would be one method to get around the artifact's limitations; import raw materials, then have the magically-endowed craftsmen produce a masterwork that can be used outside.

sambo.
2010-08-04, 01:15 AM
i think you'd wind up with a 100 mile radius circle of peace, prosperity and benevolance surrounded by a wild, wasteland of uncivilised savagery and people battling to try and get inside the 100 mile limit.

BobVosh
2010-08-04, 01:56 AM
If the person in control was intelligent, all they would ever wish for was research materials etc. Otherwise they will make a kingdom that can't import/export (their goods and wealth is worthless out of the limit), people would die when they leave (food created stops existing out of the limit, I assume this works a bit like not eating on the astral plane, and other issues.

Assuming that gaining knowledge using it to run simulations doesn't leave when you leave the 100 mile radius then you can have a very enlightened kingdom. Also it would be one of the least taxed kingdoms. However I think the only way to run this kingdom without screwing over yourselves in the long run is like a holodeck on star trek. Sparingly and if you had any sense (which isn't in ST) you will worry about how and when the next time it will bend you over its knee for punishment. Not if, when.

Also if you wish someone dead (a criminal who murdered or whatever, still in the good theme) do they come back if they leave the radius?

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-08-04, 02:09 AM
Also if you wish someone dead (a criminal who murdered or whatever, still in the good theme) do they come back if they leave the radius?

They would effectively be banished from the land... -so long as someone cared to remove them from the AOE. How warped would that society be if death was actually one of the most humane severe punishments available? :smallbiggrin:

Randel
2010-08-04, 02:17 AM
Create the biggest and best school the multiverse has ever seen.

First have the device create barriers to protect everyone inside the area of influence and put up big fences/walls around it.

Then, construct a whole bunch of building, mostly schools and classrooms, libraries and labs for people to work in. Have all the classes, students, and staff supplied with food and resources to make them happy so they can dedicate all their time towards learning.

The massive school could provide education to people who could then leave the area and use their skills outside the artifacts range of effect. Things like agriculture, crafts, and medicine should be easy to teach while greater experiments involving costly material components or arcane equipment would get use from the artifact wishing stuff into existance.

Heck, if the wishes can be used to collect copies of books from all over the world or get information about the various creatures, magics, or civilizations in the setting then they could create the biggest library ever. Then, set up a printing shop that uses stuff made without the wishing stone and you could send books and information out of the area.

The wishing artifact would best be used to protect the area or provide amounts of money, XP, or expensive magical equipment to set up experiments. Maybe conjure up golems or undead which can be used to help students train their combat skills on. If you're even remotely compenant then you can set up infinite food traps or permanent walls of flame to provide all the food/water/power/resources needed to keep the university running smooth. Then use that knowledge to run your kingdom, then empire, then the world and eventually the universe itself.

The main resource you need for a magic Empire is knowledge, and you need the resources to set up the school to get that knowledge. Unless this artifact can rip peoples memories out of their head then exporting trained wizards and clerics would make the most sense. Use the stone to wish up scrolls of all the known spells in the world and start teaching wizards to understand them. Then you've got a bunch of wizards who can cast whatever spells you might need without having to worry about them vanishing once they leave the zone.

Once you've used the stone to start thing up and have a system in place that keeps training people and you've got plenty of non wished-up things keeping your infrastructure running then start easing up on your use of the wishing artifact. Why raise someone with a wish when you can have a cleric cast raise dead? Let the wish stone fall into legend so that not everybody knows about it and then set up means to protect it.

Hopefully, your huge school/kingdom/empire won't rely on it for much and will only use it in extreme emergencies. If it is possible to wish it out of existence then have that as a back-up plan and just make sure you can get whatever you want using the various spellcasters and infrastructure you created indirectly from the stone.


For kicks, make the biggest library in the world. Not just a library the size of a huge building or a town. Make a library that can be mistaken for a mountain range! Of course, it would be made up of lots and lots of large buildings with perhaps their own roads or canals set up for people to travel through but make sure it has multiple copies of every book ever in existence along with systems to organize, maintain, protect, and make replacements for these books.

Your massive library should contain all sort of ways for people to read books, write books, scry the world to get reliable information to verify information that goes into books, or labs to test out the spells that go into books. Have what is basically THE go-to place for every wizard or intelligent person who will gather there to learn. Then export your books around the world to spread literacy. With magic, all the needs for food, water, heat, and shelter can be provided by wizards or other people who learn the magic they get from books.


The wishing field might be useful to create a bubble that makes sure that nobody dies in your kingdom. Maybe all damage is nonlethal while inside the realm. With a high concentration of wizards and such in the area than its possible somebody would try causing trouble. Liberal use of Detect Evil or protective spells should be able to weed out anyone who would abuse the knowledge or limit the damage they could do.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 10:29 AM
Good food for thought so far. It's good to see that I was on the right track that such a kingdom would be very insular, isolated, and unwelcoming of outsiders - that this might be the result of overpopulation isn't something I had considered though. If this is the case, immigration would obviously be heavily restricted or prohibited, but what about emigration? How likely would it be that someone voluntarily gives up their paradise lifestyle, potentially forever, and goes out into the wider world?

Developing that further, it's mentioned a few times about magically conjured food...but how practical is that? A single person constantly using Wish 24-7 to replicate Create Food And Water at CL20th can produce enough food to keep 864,000 people fed and healthy. That's a lot, especially for an otherwise medieval society. Every 6 seconds you don't spend conjuring food means 60 people go hungry, though, so would the population be lower than this max to save time for other tasks, or would there be mundane crop farming - possibly augmented with Plant Growth to supplement or entirely sustain food needs?

The idea of resetting Create Food traps does break this idea though - if they exist, the entire point is moot, so consider this a new tangential hypothetical where items or traps capable of infinitely replicating spells don't exist. Since only one person is capable of Wishing, and they must consciously make each Wish, there's a upper limit on how much they can Wish into being even if they don't need to sleep, and the more time is spent on administrative tasks like food conjuration or waste disposal, the less there is for anything lasting.

Lysander
2010-08-04, 10:44 AM
Question: how direct must the benefit be before its negated upon exiting the sphere?

For example, a resurrected person would die upon exiting. But would a person just magically healed have their wounds reappear? What if the wound was healed many years ago?

Or for example, summoned food would obviously vanish. But what about natural crops that benefited from regular rainfall created by controlling the weather through wishes? Also as someone pointed out above, would a person who subsisted on wish food die immediately upon exiting?

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 11:55 AM
Indirect effects (at least one step removed) remain, only direct changes Wished into being are negated. So a person Wished dead will be resurrected, or a person Wished alive will be killed - but a person beheaded with an axe will still be head, even if that axe was created with a Wish. Magically healed wounds would only un-heal if sufficient time had not passed for the wound to heal naturally. The effect wouldn't undo things retroactively, with the exception of life/death - crops would be fine, and while a person who lived off Wish food might have the contents of their stomach vanish, they wouldn't retroactively lose the nutrients from previous meals. A wizard did it.

Jota
2010-08-04, 12:33 PM
"I chose... Rapture!

But in all seriousness, it's quite probable that this would unfold like ancient city states, where civilization crops up around the sphere of influence because it's convenient/immigrants never get in and simply chose to settle (assuming the "city" allows them to).

Note wish doesn't have to replicate create food in water. You could make 25,000 gp worth of bread. It'd probably be pretty big. You might even end up with some sort of cycle, where people get to come in for a week, eat a bit, and then move on, though forcing them to leave might be an issue unless you streamline the process, though you'll obviously want to do that.

While I was joking initially, if you can devote space for research you might as well, since knowledge can be taken outside the barrier. You can wish away the issues that presented themselves in Bioshock.

Kaww
2010-08-04, 01:12 PM
Wish 1: Everyone except the one that is the Wish maker of the era doesn't know about it.
Wish 2: People prosper a bit more than in other countries, not a lot(a bit better crops, no natural disasters etc.)
Wish 3: Water is always drinkable (rivers, ponds are always a source of fresh water)
Wish 4: Pollution is impossible.
Wish 5: Natural resources are unlimited. (if you cut down a tree it grows again in a year or so)
Wish 6: When facing with overpopulation excess people leave. The ones that leave are the evil, stupider, weaker of the population in that order.
Wish 7: I always have a full tankard.
Wish 8: A worthy successor.
Wish 9: I can't leave the area of effect.
Wish 10: The Item can not be destroyed.
Wish 11: These wishes can not be unmade.
Wish 12: I am immortal.

Prime32
2010-08-04, 01:17 PM
First thing I'd do would be to tunnel 100m below the ground so more people can fit.

Well, actually the first thing I'd do would be to create a bunch of extradimensional spaces, but they're disallowed.

Second thing I'd do would be to shrink everyone.

Third thing would be to create a barrier around the kingdom. Residents can pass through the barrier if they concentrate on doing so, but outsiders cannot enter without my permission. Main purpose is to stop people who are only still alive due to wishes from leaving by accident.


What happens if a person is created from nothing, has a child with a normal person, and then the child leaves the radius?

Wish 12: I am immortal.Re-read the OP - that forfeits your control.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 01:59 PM
First thing I'd do would be to tunnel 100m below the ground so more people can fit.

Well, actually the first thing I'd do would be to create a bunch of extradimensional spaces, but they're disallowed.

Second thing I'd do would be to shrink everyone.

While the concept of an entire country under the effects of Permanent Reduce Person (or just a Rod of Wonder fired at them until they shrank) is funny, I did run the numbers enough to find that a 100mile radius circle is 31,400 square miles. 864,000 residents is still only 30 people per square mile, when (modern) standards of urban density is 1000+ per square mile. You'd still quite a ways from overcrowing, depending on how much land is allocated to conventional farming.



Third thing would be to create a barrier around the kingdom. Residents can pass through the barrier if they concentrate on doing so, but outsiders cannot enter without my permission. Main purpose is to stop people who are only still alive due to wishes from leaving by accident.

Bubble kingdom.



What happens if a person is created from nothing, has a child with a normal person, and then the child leaves the radius?

I don't believe Wish can do this, barring some rather convoluted combo of Fabricate (to make a statue), Stone to Flesh (to make the statue into a corpse), Animate Dead (to create a zombie from the corpse), Awaken Undead (to grant the zombie sentience), killing the zombie, then Resurrection (to restore the zombie-with-artifically-created-soul to life). Just spawning new life is Epic magic, as evidenced by Origin of Species.



Re-read the OP - that forfeits your control.

Not to mention violating the rule against affecting yourself with the Wishes.

As a general rule, try to keep Wish concepts limited to the approved list and things that a lenient, but not completely doormat DM might approve. Epic-level magic is right out. Incidentally, the artifact is already indestructible, so that's not necessary.

Lysander
2010-08-04, 02:04 PM
The kingdom would probably be the heart of a massive empire, possibly controlling the entire world (assuming some greater power like a high level wizard or deity doesn't intervene). Even if the ruler is not officially in control of the surrounding regions they still would have immense economic or social power over them.

Although the ruler only has godlike abilities within a fixed area, the extent of that power is so great they could wield influence over the area outside as well. By using wish indirectly you could create goods that can be taken outside of the kingdom. For example, you could use magic to till the fields and grow crops, summon magical food to feed your own populace, and sell the grown crops as a commodity to other areas. The same applies to non-edible object too; make stuff to sell outside the kingdom, summon stuff to use. This wealth would let them raise an army to conquer the rest of the world if they wanted. Or if the ruler is altruistic they could simply give away some or all of what they produce as charity to less fortunate regions. Essentially, you'd have a paradise bubble that produces goods to both sell and donate to the rest of the world.

There would probably be a few cities surrounded by a beautiful and safe countryside, and very tight control over immigration/birth to prevent overpopulation. Like posters suggested above, education would be made available to all and strongly encouraged and the kingdom would be the knowledge capitol of the world. The kingdom would still have a capitalistic society, just very basic items like food, clothing, and shelter would be available to all. Prestige and material comfort would come to those who excel in science, scholarship, magic, crafting, the arts, and business. The population would be magically enhanced as well. A bureaucracy would select people for regular events where hundreds would line up to have certain abilities enhanced +5. Sometimes it would be by random lottery, other times to help those with birth defects, often it would be to turn already above average people into paragons.

Crime would be minimal due to the use of wish divination to ferret out wrongdoers. Accidental deaths and murders would be reversed through resurrection. You'd still need a police force since you couldn't be everywhere, but anything they can't solve or handle would be referred to you for some wishing. Unless you plan to conquer (or perform peacekeeping missions) in other nations you could have a minimal army, more of a national guard. But I imagine the wish kingdom probably would have a pretty large army, but made up of enlistees from other nations and kept mostly in other parts of the world fighting whatever the ruler considers an injustice.

Here's one kind of immigration nobody has suggested: immigration of the dead. Anyone who dies in another country could theoretically be brought to the wish kingdom for a new life. They just could never leave. To prevent overpopulation you'd probably limit this just to the best and brightest other nations have to offer. You could even resurrect great thinkers and artists from a hundred years ago or more. This would just further improve your society's status as the intellectual center of the world.

In a kingdom like this, where the king is semi-omnipotent, the line of succession would be extremely important. When the king gets old I expect a great big deal of effort would go into finding and selecting a worthy heir. Could the be the stuff of quests.

The Antigamer
2010-08-04, 02:07 PM
Re: wish 12

Change to:
Wish for the knowledge of the best way to become immortal. Wish for a permanently dominated normal elf servant. Become immortal via previously researched way. Do not use any components created by the stone, so that your immortality lasts outside the sphere of influence. Now make the dominated elf touch the stone. When he gets close to dying in a few centuries, have him wish for another elf that is permanently dominated by you. When fist elf dies, have second elf touch the stone. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Also, I foresee a bubble city, since I'm assuming the wish area is 110 mile radius from stone up and down too. Or is it only a 2d circle? In that case, the city grows up and down infinitely.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 02:11 PM
In a kingdom like this, where the king is semi-omnipotent, the line of succession would be extremely important. When the king gets old I expect a great big deal of effort would go into finding and selecting a worthy heir. Could the be the stuff of quests.

A very good point, and thankfully one of the few I had already thought about - in the case of the country that this thought experiment is working to develop, the Wish-granting artifact is actually semi-sentient...not enough to make Wishes on its own, but when linked to a ruler, can evaluate the population under its/their domain to find the most worthy replacement. That's not really relevant to the situation though.

EDIT: Yes, it's been described as a circle radius till now, but it might as well be 100 miles vertical up and down as well.

EDIT 2: True Domination is too high-level for Wish, though I guess you could do it with Necrotic Cyst and Necrotic Domination.

In the overall case of trying to game the system to maintain indefinite control - not that big a deal, since the point of this is over a very long-term duration. Whether it's one person as a puppeteer or a succession of rulers with the same general guidance/goal set isn't relevant.

The Antigamer
2010-08-04, 02:31 PM
In the overall case of trying to game the system to maintain indefinite control - not that big a deal, since the point of this is over a very long-term duration. Whether it's one person as a puppeteer or a succession of rulers with the same general guidance/goal set isn't relevant.

Ah, point, this is just a thought exercise. Then yes, I believe the best choice is make the gigantic library, a giant school, a gigantic mage hall for experiments, and a gigantic forge building. If it's simply a 2d circle radius, and everything above and under is in the wish zone, then have cities in the air and underground devoted to exceptional people who died and were brought back to life. No one is a permanent resident of the area except the wisher and the formerly dead, everyone else gets working visas, depending on what they're doing (crafting, studying, experimenting, vacationing, etc.). No one can stay too long. There are suburb cities surrounding the sphere that allow permanent residency. The whole point of the area is not to be a city, but a place where people go to learn before heading out to use their knowledge, and as a place to create things that can be used outside.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-04, 02:32 PM
It would invariably end isolated (think Charlescomm), as the alternative would be a constant war to enter the bubble.
How do people live in there? Does the Wisher let people live there for free?
The power itself precludes any real need for anyone inside to ever interact with the outside, so most interactions would be whims of the residents and protecting the inside from invaders.

I can imagine a few interesting situations for such a City. Is the wisher interested in interacting with the Outside? The City could, like the given example, be a center of knowledge. It would accept people and raw materials, and deliver specialists: top-notch casters, powerful fighting styles, worldwide famous artisans), and it would charge Knowledge.
Or it could simply be a Paradise for Rent.: People could go in there seeking asylum or retirement, pay the price and stay there for the stipulated time.
It could also secretly control the world. People from inside would be sent as envoys or even impersonators to control how the nations would develop, as if such nations were their playthings.


My favorite is the first. It turns the City into the De Facto hub of knowledge, master craftwork, arts and raw power.This City would use the money to buy from outsiders materials that must be used outside, like said mercs' gear. The People would probably be arrogant, and ultimately materialists, needing money only to supply their forces Outside or obtaining stuff that can't be Wished (like people. Concubines?)


Maybe only City stylists are coveted by the royalty.
Or only City magi can maintain the flying ships that connect key cities.
Or City warriors are the best neutral merc force (think Seeds from FFVIII).

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 02:36 PM
Maybe only City stylists are coveted by the royalty.
Or only City magi can maintain the flying ships that connect key cities.
Or City warriors are the best neutral merc force (think Seeds from FFVIII).

Now we have Magical Switzerland...I like where this is going.

Prime32
2010-08-04, 03:11 PM
I don't believe Wish can do this, barring some rather convoluted combo of Fabricate (to make a statue), Stone to Flesh (to make the statue into a corpse), Animate Dead (to create a zombie from the corpse), Awaken Undead (to grant the zombie sentience), killing the zombie, then Resurrection (to restore the zombie-with-artifically-created-soul to life). Just spawning new life is Epic magic, as evidenced by Origin of Species.Polymorph any object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) can create living creatures. You just need to make a sculpture of a human out of organic matter, then cast the spell on it.

Yes, you can also polymorph dead creatures into living creatures (which do not possess the original's mind), but you run the risk of losing a few limbs or having your soul stuck in a suit of armor.

ClockShock
2010-08-04, 03:28 PM
It's cropped up a few times but perhaps worth rementioning. It seems that knowledge - as a process of augmented research as opposed to knowledge instantly wished for - would be able to travel away from the wish-giving device. In a similar vein, services performed whilst near the device, if only augmented by the blessings of said device and not performed specifically by it, will also be able to exist outside the given radius.

So assuming benevolence, would it perhaps be MORE useful to set up a highly secluded group of individuals, each of which benefitting from unsurpassed training and research, and using these individuals to go out into the wider world and grant improvements.

Adventures could benefit from the most advanced and level appropriate training schemes, without having to worry about those BBEGs sending dragons, or assassins, or dragon assassins.
And, well, i'm sure you get the idea.

Edit: Just noticed Snake-Aes already outlined this pretty much exactly.

Ormur
2010-08-04, 05:14 PM
100 miles is pretty big, it's actually big enough to call a proper kingdom. You said 864.000 people could be fed with the wishes constantly emulating create food and water but that's a very inefficient use of the wishes compared to the other ideas posted. A better use of (some of) them would be for highly efficient agriculture: plant growth, constant ideal conditions, no pests, leveling ground to make more space, even animated ploughs or farmer golems. Even with medieval farming techniques that could still feed more than 864.000 people, maybe even 10.000.000 people. That's the population density of modern Denmark so that might even be conservative.

That way the whole kingdom could be an idyllic countryside intersected by buildings. If it's a 100 mile sphere then there's plenty of space for people underground and wishes would eliminate many of the problems of high density living. Real estate, aside from knowledge, would perhaps be the only thing worth anything in a place where everything else can be wished into existence. There could be deep cavern palaces and tall towers (crystal spires and togas), towns built into slopes or perhaps more ordinarily countless farmhouses and dense towns in between orchards and fields.

The ideas about concentrating on knowledge and attracting talent are sensible and would mean importing people and building a lot. The influx of hopeful people from outside would also be constant and for a few decades at least the native population would breed very quickly because of better conditions. The population could eventually reach a level where local agriculture couldn't be expanded further to feed everyone without encroaching on living and research space. The kingdom would then have to import food.

Since wished things couldn't be exchanged it would either have to export knowledge and manufacturing or more simply and less benevolently armies to tax the adjacent areas. Either way those areas might become depopulated and in constant strife in such close proximity to paradise. Methods to keep people out and police the neighboring areas to ensure a steady food supply might be necessary so the kingdom would inevitably have a lot of influence way beyond it's borders. It could be through force of arms, suzerainty, economic domination or just by the chaos it's mere existence would create.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 06:45 PM
Okay, so it's pretty definite at this point that even with a fixed range on how far Wishes can reach in direct effect, the mere existence of this kingdom would still make it the most powerful and influential kingdom in the world.

Just to create a new tangent, then, what if use of the artifact also, for lack of a better term, afflicts the user with a sort of apathy towards the outside world? They're still driven and encouraged to make life for those inside the bubble, but couldn't care less about anyone outside its range, or have any desire to enforce authority or dominance towards such land?

FMArthur
2010-08-04, 06:52 PM
Also, because its controller explicitly cannot be immortal, the Wish Kingdom makes a huge deal about selecting its next controller for when the current one dies/decides to become immortal.

If I were ever to write a story about such a kingdom or use it for a campaign, you can bet your arse that the whole plot revolves around this important detail.

The Antigamer
2010-08-04, 06:56 PM
Also, because its controller explicitly cannot be immortal, the Wish Kingdom makes a huge deal about selecting its next controller for when the current one dies/decides to become immortal.

If I were ever to write a story about such a kingdom or use it for a campaign, you can bet your arse that the whole plot revolves around this important detail.

Why not just wish to know who the best next controller would be?
Also, taken care of with the immortal ruler who uses totally dominated elf slaves to actually make the wishes.

Morph Bark
2010-08-04, 07:23 PM
i think you'd wind up with a 100 mile radius circle of peace, prosperity and benevolance surrounded by a wild, wasteland of uncivilised savagery and people battling to try and get inside the 100 mile limit.

Would make for a great campaign premise. :smallamused:


Wish 1: Everyone except the one that is the Wish maker of the era doesn't know about it.
Wish 2: People prosper a bit more than in other countries, not a lot(a bit better crops, no natural disasters etc.)
Wish 3: Water is always drinkable (rivers, ponds are always a source of fresh water)
Wish 4: Pollution is impossible.
Wish 5: Natural resources are unlimited. (if you cut down a tree it grows again in a year or so)
Wish 6: When facing with overpopulation excess people leave. The ones that leave are the evil, stupider, weaker of the population in that order.
Wish 7: I always have a full tankard.
Wish 8: A worthy successor.
Wish 9: I can't leave the area of effect.
Wish 10: The Item can not be destroyed.
Wish 11: These wishes can not be unmade.
Wish 12: I am immortal.

As said, 12 doesn't work, but domination and the like does. Since this society would be prolly only DM-created though, it'd be more interesting if someone else would occassionally step up - but of course with things put in place to make sure PCs don't get to it!

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 07:24 PM
Why not just wish to know who the best next controller would be?
Also, taken care of with the immortal ruler who uses totally dominated elf slaves to actually make the wishes.

Random monkey wrench: Bonding to the artifact renders you immune to outside sources of magical control. Just because:smallcool: (or, for at least a flimsy justification, you benefit from the artifact's "construct" nature, including immunity to mind-affecting abilities).

Snake-Aes
2010-08-04, 07:26 PM
For you Xenogears players: Solaris

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 07:29 PM
Or, on another line of thought, what if we make the effects of the item persist after two steps of removal?
-A conjured axe will vanish outside the zone. A criminal killed by a conjured axe will resurrect outside the zone. A victim murdered by that criminal will not resurrect outside the zone.
-A load of conjured bread will vanish, and anyone who subsisted solely off conjured food will have that nutrition revoked (and probably die). Something they built before dying, though, will remain intact.
-A rainstorm conjured by Wished weather will not reach outside the zone, and plants sustained by Wished rain will wither and die as if they had never recieved that rain. Someone who ate bread made from those plants, though, will remain healthy.

Morph Bark
2010-08-04, 07:45 PM
Or, on another line of thought, what if we make the effects of the item persist after two steps of removal?
-A conjured axe will vanish outside the zone. A criminal killed by a conjured axe will resurrect outside the zone. A victim murdered by that criminal will not resurrect outside the zone.
-A load of conjured bread will vanish, and anyone who subsisted solely off conjured food will have that nutrition revoked (and probably die). Something they built before dying, though, will remain intact.
-A rainstorm conjured by Wished weather will not reach outside the zone, and plants sustained by Wished rain will wither and die as if they had never recieved that rain. Someone who ate bread made from those plants, though, will remain healthy.

So, basically, if you wanna venture outside the area after living there for a while or having visited and eaten their food and drunk their water for a while, you first need to eat food and drink water brought in from outside first for at least three days to allow your body to get the nutrition it needs that won't immediately be lost when you go outside it.

Prolly would have one still feel a bit awkward though.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-04, 07:50 PM
Making it die at third step instead of second seems...odd. It would block quite a few ideas, like for example the crafting thing. An artisan would have to teach an outsider who would then do stuff...and forget how to do it after leaving, altho the stuff remains.

What could be done instead?It's pretty clear that there isn't much to think about the City without it's interaction with Outside, since Inside you can just wish stuff into being and the lives are a direct and utterly predictable result of the Wisher's desires.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-04, 07:53 PM
Well, with the three-step limit, the book would teach the artisan who could teach another person. If the book or teacher 1 left the radius, they'd lose the knowledge, but the student is at least two steps removed, so they'd retain what they learned. It is weird though, so I don't think I'll go that route.




Let's take this in a different direction, from the bottom instead of the top. You're not the Wisher anymore, but random Citizen #N+1 of Wishland. If your life is calm, peaceful, well-fed, with entertainment and prosperity, how much do you care about the world outside your kingdom's borders? Would anything motivate you to give up that paradise?

fryplink
2010-08-04, 08:42 PM
First I'm going to assume that food created by wishes remains as an energy source for the people eating it.

This means I can create a Kingdom of artisans, whom I can train on "fake" rock/ore/canvas, but when someone else needs something made by the most skilled artisans in the world they send the materials and an amount of gold. This is perfect for a service economy.

Need a great mercenary group? We train ours on the hordes of Hell, keeping them protected from harm by wishes, but deduct points on their final test for things that would hurt/kill them. (therefore giving them a reason to train properly)

Housing would be no problem as you could create a shrink barrier around the 100 mile area that would shrink everything within it, meaning that you could essentially have as much space as needed. objects like corn grown by normal means within the sphere would expand upon exportation. just keep the soil fertile with wishes and the water clean too. Meaning you could have exports in your econ.

Next is transportation. Difficult. Gliders. 100 miles up is really far, teleporting massive gliders up there they are still up high when they leave the bubble and with a source of propulsion that isn't wish driven (such as a rubber band motor of epic proportions made by the hands of expert laborers or steam jets or a slew of time period specific tech ) you could have gliders capable to traving distances far outside of the kingdom (getting back would be the merchants and neighboring kingdoms problem)

disease, suppress disease on the way in, bring in the deathly sick to nurse them back to health near the border, then have them leave to fight the illness some more until they form immunities of some sort

poison, instead of suppressing poison have every poisonous substance teleported into a chamber 100 miles beneath the surface that cannot be reached (by wish dictum) upon leaving the poisoned persons poison is to remain in the chamber while they leave without it (the object being teleported DID remain in the area) naturally all poison in the chamber will be shrunk even further to keep it small

When I die? assuming I cannot wish myself polymorphed into an immortal creature, I'd stipulate that the next person, or any person thereafter, to touch the object couldn't undo any of my wishes


Edit for more ideas: on classrooms, have students in classroom have a slowed time, allowing for years of education to be accumulated in hours, while the students would leave aged (or maybe not depending on the precise effect of the wish) you could create an incredibly diverse economy in weeks, as opposed to slowly climbing the ladder

Heck you could invert this in farm fields, since if you sped up time only in the fields when the farmers were gone (in order to avoid aging them) you could end world hunger in your eternally shrunken ever fertile farms of insti-grow

Maybe that is taking it too far?

Lysander
2010-08-04, 08:43 PM
Let's take this in a different direction, from the bottom instead of the top. You're not the Wisher anymore, but random Citizen #N+1 of Wishland. If your life is calm, peaceful, well-fed, with entertainment and prosperity, how much do you care about the world outside your kingdom's borders? Would anything motivate you to give up that paradise?

Sure, lots of people would leave temporarily. Just look at rich people in first world nations who travel to poorer countries as tourists, aid workers, or missionaries. Of course, people who have been magically enhanced probably wouldn't leave because they would lose their enhancements (unless the enhancements are only suppressed while outside and then resume upon returning).

Also, while the wish kingdom is a wonderful place life outside of the wish kingdom isn't necessarily that much worse. If you have money and marketable skills thanks to your free state provided education, you can probably afford to live in luxury in another country just as comfortably.

fryplink
2010-08-04, 08:46 PM
Sure, lots of people would leave temporarily. Just look at rich people in first world nations who travel to poorer countries as tourists, aid workers, or missionaries. Of course, people who have been magically enhanced probably wouldn't leave because they would lose their enhancements (unless the enhancements are only suppressed while outside and then resume upon returning).

Also, while the wish kingdom is a wonderful place life outside of the wish kingdom isn't necessarily that much worse. If you have money and marketable skills thanks to your free state provided education, you can probably afford to live in luxury in another country just as comfortably.

Exactly, don't use the wishes to do things for ppl, use them to enable them to do things for themselves on an unparalleled level

The Antigamer
2010-08-04, 09:05 PM
*facepalm*
Shrink the kingdom! Of course! Good call fryplink.

FMArthur
2010-08-04, 09:21 PM
When I die? assuming I cannot wish myself polymorphed into an immortal creature, I'd stipulate that the next person, or any person thereafter, to touch the object couldn't undo any of my wishes

They would just need to wish away that particular wish before undoing the rest. "I wish I could undo that guy's wishes" shouldn't be any less powerful a wish than "I wish that guy couldn't undo my wishes".

For most of the rest of your post, I'd have to ask why anyone would bother? You don't need trade of any kind. There is no amount of gold someone can offer you for it to have any value whatsoever. There could probably be many people wanting to work in or improve the outside world, but they would be a small minority.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-04, 09:22 PM
Depends depends...
We can't assume Will Tampering otherwise it just becomes what is Wished.
So...
Some would leave for tourism. Like said before, there is a novelty in visiting the other nations. Their standings will vary based mostly on the City's influence over other countries(small and suspicious if they're neutral, tolerable or amicable if the City trains outsiders) and in their own view of the world (they deserve pity. they are worthless scum. they're playthings)
Another reason to leave would be to find stuff that can't be wished for. I kept assuming the Wisher can't create people, as that's kind of an epic spell. If this is true, then people would leave if they weren't satisfied with the City's people (insert quest for true love here).

Those who stay also have their views based on mostly two things: Their view of the Outside(they deserve pity. they are worthless scum. they're playthings. they are not here so i don't really care) and the Outsiders' presence in the City (trainees, visitors on vacation, breeding slaves, posthumous immigrants). If the City lets Outsiders interact directly with the Resources, selfish and evil Citizens will probably scorn them.


Another thing to consider is what the Citizens are given. Are they given comfort? Are they given tools? What do they have to earn? The more naturally comfortable their lives become, the more consumerism increases (what? You have to BUY your food? Incredible! You wash your clothes instead of discarding them! What do you mean your mother died trampled by a horse? Just go to the office line and call her back. You can't do that? Well, this is awkward...)

In the example of the City providing the Tools For The Job, the Citizens are probably used to a comfortable life (work environment, man!), high quality products, good food, and mostly keep their earnings to buy their leisure. Someone like that would be cranky to work with normal tools, or in a bad location, and would really not be happy with having to spend most of his money on sustaining his house.

fryplink
2010-08-04, 09:24 PM
They would just need to wish away that particular wish before undoing the rest. "I wish I could undo that guy's wishes" shouldn't be any less powerful a wish than "I wish that guy couldn't undo my wishes".

For most of the rest of your post, I'd have to ask why anyone would bother? You don't need trade of any kind. There is no amount of gold someone can offer you for it to have any value whatsoever. There could probably be many people wanting to work in or improve the outside world, but they would be a small minority.


Because, I'm not just trying to improve my small section of the world, but all of it, It is what I would do. Having trade (imports of permanent materials, exports of food and finished goods) improves everyone, and with an army trained the way I suggested my kingdom could potentially extend far beyond the borders of the wish effect

The piece on the not undoing my wishes would rely as much on people wanting to honor the memory of a benevolent ruler as much as the power of the artifact. Because face it, I could wish my successor right in front of me the moment before my death in an oracle-esque fashion

Edit:


Depends depends...
We can't assume Will Tampering otherwise it just becomes what is Wished.
So...
Some would leave for tourism. Like said before, there is a novelty in visiting the other nations. Their standings will vary based mostly on the City's influence over other countries(small and suspicious if they're neutral, tolerable or amicable if the City trains outsiders) and in their own view of the world (they deserve pity. they are worthless scum. they're playthings)
Another reason to leave would be to find stuff that can't be wished for. I kept assuming the Wisher can't create people, as that's kind of an epic spell. If this is true, then people would leave if they weren't satisfied with the City's people (insert quest for true love here).

Those who stay also have their views based on mostly two things: Their view of the Outside(they deserve pity. they are worthless scum. they're playthings. they are not here so i don't really care) and the Outsiders' presence in the City (trainees, visitors on vacation, breeding slaves, posthumous immigrants). If the City lets Outsiders interact directly with the Resources, selfish and evil Citizens will probably scorn them.


Another thing to consider is what the Citizens are given. Are they given comfort? Are they given tools? What do they have to earn? The more naturally comfortable their lives become, the more consumerism increases (what? You have to BUY your food? Incredible! You wash your clothes instead of discarding them! What do you mean your mother died trampled by a horse? Just go to the office line and call her back. You can't do that? Well, this is awkward...)

In the example of the City providing the Tools For The Job, the Citizens are probably used to a comfortable life (work environment, man!), high quality products, good food, and mostly keep their earnings to buy their leisure. Someone like that would be cranky to work with normal tools, or in a bad location, and would really not be happy with having to spend most of his money on sustaining his house.

You could train people within the city to create minor magic items that replicate food production, non-magic item creation, etc

I would always limit what was given to ensure commerce kept moving, I would train them ON the common tools, they would have to craft better tools if they wanted them

Kaww
2010-08-05, 01:42 AM
As said, 12 doesn't work, but domination and the like does. Since this society would be prolly only DM-created though, it'd be more interesting if someone else would occassionally step up - but of course with things put in place to make sure PCs don't get to it!

Damn! I still have the tankard.

Milskidasith
2010-08-05, 01:58 AM
Has anybody else suggested the fact you can just use this to get Wishes twice removed? I know it isn't the intent, but it seems to only imply that direct creations of the artifact cease to exist; you could easily just wish your way into rings of three wishes, and use those wishes to create bonuses without it.

If it's the other way, and all indirect consequences of the wishes vanish at the edge of the radius, any civilization making significant progress would have anything that attempted to leave instantly being atomized, because it's all due to the wishes. If you were moderately benevolent towards your subjects, the best thing you could do would be to Wish all of them out (build walls, wish outside the walls, etc.), then spend the rest of your days wishing for ways to gain EXP so you could take the expanded lifetime feats (or wishing for new people to drain for more life, if you could get over the fact that requires you to be evil) so nobody else could ever create a society that, by and large, may as well not exist because they are only toys of the artifact and, outside the radius, cease to exist entirely. It's actually rather horrifying.

EDIT: Of course, a third option is that indirect consequences of the wish end up to a certain point, but that's very fuzzy and, while this is all pure fiat, gets a bit too close to the "The object works in such a way as to make the only outcome the one I was expecting" levels. In that case, what everybody else is saying is OK.

EDIT: Even if you have people create nonmagical tools out of pre-existing land while in the wish radius, all the skills they obtained are corrupted by wishiness, and they cease to exist outside of 100 miles. You could pass through the land in theory, but you'd have to be able to travel 100 miles without getting any aid from anybody because all the food and water would disappear when you left.

The one thing that would work is transport; since you aren't taking anything out of the area, you'd be perfectly fine using your entire kingdom as a 100 mile radius instant transport terminal.

ZeroNumerous
2010-08-05, 02:01 AM
Just because I like subverting things like this:

1) I wish the people living in the affected area were always able to meet their basic human needs.
2) I wish the people living in the affected area were always independent of another country.
3) I wish for a Candle of Invocation.
3.b) I use the Candle of Invocation to summon an Efreeti or Noble Djinn.
3.c) I ask the djinn to grant my wish for the death of the Tarrasque, so that my people would not be destroyed.
3.d) Using my second djinn wish, I wish to be PAO'd into a Black Ethergaunt. I then PAO myself into a Black Ethergaunt again, making the change permanent. I then wish for the djinn to grant the people an effective and competent ruler who is not myself.
4) I use the artifact to wish that the ruler had a line of descendants who were as competent and effective as the original.
5) I use the artifact to wish for the destruction of the artifact so that it can never be abused(again).
6) I then leave and go be a 17th level wizard, since that is what I am now.

End Result: People are happy, fed, invincible in warfare(so long as they are defending their home), economically independent, and will have a line of competent rulers. I, on the other hand, went in a level 1 commoner and came out a 17th level wizard.

Milskidasith
2010-08-05, 02:04 AM
Just because I like subverting things like this:

1) I wish the people living in the affected area were always able to meet their basic human needs.
2) I wish the people living in the affected area were always independent of another country.
3) I wish for a Candle of Invocation.
3.b) I use the Candle of Invocation to summon an Efreeti or Noble Djinn.
3.c) I ask the djinn to grant my wish for the death of the Tarrasque, so that my people would not be destroyed.
3.d) Using my second djinn wish, I wish to be PAO'd into a Black Ethergaunt. I then PAO myself into a Black Ethergaunt again, making the change permanent. I then wish for the djinn to grant the people an effective and competent ruler who is not myself.
4) I use the artifact to wish that the ruler had a line of descendants who were as competent and effective as the original.
5) I use the artifact to wish for the destruction of the artifact so that it can never be abused(again).
6) I then leave and go be a 17th level wizard, since that is what I am now.

End Result: People are happy, fed, invincible in warfare(so long as they are defending their home), economically independent, and will have a line of competent rulers. I, on the other hand, went in a level 1 commoner and came out a 17th level wizard.

Far beyond the realm of Wishes. You're using wish to emulate ninth level spells and give instantaneous (not permanent) effects that go beyond any possible description. Your strategy does not work. Plus, as soon as you become a black ethergaunt, you lose access to the artifacts wish capability anyway, and that's assuming that the "indirect abilities: do they matter?" question I brought up allowed indirect consequences to exist.

Anyway, to reiterate, since I think I rambled a bit:

If only direct consequences matter, it becomes the Tippyverse. There are numerous ways to gain wishes, and you can, at the very least, emulate true creation and competence bonuses to keep a steady supply of buildings and weapons churned out for your army, and train them on summoned stuff to keep them tough, which, due to that not being a direct wish, stays when they conquer the world. Hit level 17, and you don't need the artifact anymore.

If only indirect consequences matter: The area becomes a transport terminal with no permanent residents in the best case (assuming you get the implications), and a horrifying pseudo-utopia that may as well not exist because attempting to leave causes instant death, while also being invincible from everybody else (that is non epic or less crafty than you). In effect, you get a closed system, not merely a separate plane or an area cut off by geographic location, but, essentially, an entirely new universe totally separate from the rest, save the ability to toss travelers along faster, which essentially causes them to totally avoid it anyway.

If only some indirect consequences matter: What everybody else has said.

ZeroNumerous
2010-08-05, 02:10 AM
Far beyond the realm of Wishes. You're using wish to emulate ninth level spells and give instantaneous (not permanent) effects that go beyond any possible description. Your strategy does not work. Plus, as soon as you become a black ethergaunt, you lose access to the artifacts wish capability anyway.


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)


As a general rule, try to keep Wish concepts limited to the approved list and things that a lenient, but not completely doormat DM might approve. Epic-level magic is right out.

No where do I reproduce a 9th level spell, or anything similar. No where in Glyphstone's restrictions are bans against instantaneous effects.

And Black Ethergaunt's aren't immortal, so I would still be able to use the item if I hadn't destroyed it.

Milskidasith
2010-08-05, 02:16 AM
And Black Ethergaunt's aren't immortal, so I would still be able to use the item if I hadn't destroyed it.

Being aberrations with no stated lifespan, this is a toss up, but I always assumed they were immortal.

EDIT: Also, even with allowances being made for things beyond the normal realm of wishes, I'm fairly certain "Immune to being invaded" and "Never need to do anything to survive" are epic magic level abilities. Instantaneous is just yet more reason they are beyond the normal capabilities of wishes; there are very few spells, especially buffs, that give you an undispellable bonus, save epic spells.

EDIT X2: Also, the ninth level spells thing was me thinking PaO was ninth level; I had forgotten it was eighth.

Basically, I feel you are A: clearly using abilities far beyond epic and B: using a reading of the rules clearly against the intent in order to get infinite wishes that don't have any kind of limitation on them (Well, OK, they cost EXP now, but your method is the same one, save destroying the artifact, that leads to getting total wish control everywhere, not just in the radius).

I still feel the only reasonable interpretations either lead to the Tippyverse (which, granted, gets the same end result as yours, just not by saying "I wish for my citizens to be invulnerable from outside attacks and never need food or water"), or to the "It essentially doesn't exist" civilization that, while clearly amazing to live in, can't actually influence anybody outside of it.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-05, 08:46 AM
The fun thing is, I don't need to make new rules to stop subversions, because I'll only be picking and choosing the best parts of the entire discussion to use in the end. So rules-warp away.:smallbiggrin:


New food for thought: Interaction with the gods.

Two routes to go down here...either the gods are potent and onmipresent in people's lives, a la Faerun (though not Faerunian deities specifically), or they're non-present and possibly non-existent, a la Ebberonian faiths. In either/both cases, how would religion interact with this utopian bubble kingdom?

Lysander
2010-08-05, 09:40 AM
New food for thought: Interaction with the gods.

Two routes to go down here...either the gods are potent and onmipresent in people's lives, a la Faerun (though not Faerunian deities specifically), or they're non-present and possibly non-existent, a la Ebberonian faiths. In either/both cases, how would religion interact with this utopian bubble kingdom?

That depends on the deity's portfolio and individual personality really. A god of death might be upset that they're resurrecting everyone (could also attract the wrath of maruts). Of course since the people die eventually of old age anyway, an easy-going god of death might not care while a stricter one would. Gods of magic/science/knowledge would probably be pleased that people have time to research and experiment. War gods might be upset if the wish kingdom imposes peace on the world, or if they gain an unfair advantage in their conquests. Nature gods might resent their utter magical control over the weather and other things, but since its only a 100 mile region it probably wouldn't be a big deal. Essentially some gods would be happy for them, others might get miffed when their portfolios are affected, most probably wouldn't care. People would still worship the gods, since they don't have wishes for their own personal use and would still like divine favor. Even if the gods are non-present they would still be worshipped.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 09:53 AM
New food for thought: Interaction with the gods.

Two routes to go down here...either the gods are potent and onmipresent in people's lives, a la Faerun (though not Faerunian deities specifically), or they're non-present and possibly non-existent, a la Ebberonian faiths. In either/both cases, how would religion interact with this utopian bubble kingdom?

Depends on how the City will interact. If a cult forbids stuff that the City provides, there will be opposition. I see this mostly happening if the religion revolves around the promise of afterlife. Cults with more earthly tones would probably either ignore the place or see it as a paradise.
As far as Religion goes, it's no different than politics, only the tones change.

But the gods? That depends(these will be our Arc Words!). If the place exists long enough, odds are the gods are divided about the place or are uncaring. Due to the very nature of deities and wishes, the City doesn't directly threaten the gods.
Some wouldn't mind it, some would hate it for what it provides/forbids, some would respect it.
For example, "Balamb Garden" City would be respected by War, praised by Commerce, sternly scolded by Justice, reviled by Death, fondly remembered as the beginning and end of journeys by Travel.

fryplink
2010-08-05, 10:05 AM
But the gods? That depends(these will be our Arc Words!). If the place exists long enough, odds are the gods are divided about the place or are uncaring. Due to the very nature of deities and wishes, the City doesn't directly threaten the gods.
Some wouldn't mind it, some would hate it for what it provides/forbids, some would respect it.
For example, "Balamb Garden" City would be respected by War, praised by Commerce, sternly scolded by Justice, reviled by Death, fondly remembered as the beginning and end of journeys by Travel.

I like this, I think in my wish city religion/clerics would provide another method of "exporting" (providing people outside the bubble with a permanent service) something, the wish-city can suppress wounds/disease/poison but you would need active clerics/medical staff to ensure that the members of said society can ever leave without dying from wounds/disease/poison

In exchange the god providing said spells would be giving his clerics/worship a presence in the city. This is great for a Faerunian style god (not as important for ebberon gods).

Milskidasith
2010-08-05, 11:08 AM
The gods are tricky, but for the most part, as long as the society lives "normally" I doubt they would care. An angry one would probably drop in and disjunct the artifact, though, which... how would that work? Would everything disappear? Would the people all live as they had, but still be destroyed past the radius? Would everything persist and be allowed to leave the radius?

Anyway, essentially, as long as they keep all the gods happy enough you'll be fine. With my "you can't leave the radius" interpretation, the society could only anger the God of Death if he gets angry people only ever die of old age, at least to the point he'd drop by and ruin everything; basically every other god, save nature, can ignore them because they can't do anything to affect their portfolio anyway due to being, y'know, locked out and in. Gods of progress wouldn't care because the entire society is a giant dead end.

Aharon
2010-08-05, 11:36 AM
I mostly agree with Milski's analysis - Tippyverse or place that is amazing to live in but essentially a self-imposed prison.

But I would like to provide a note on the size of the place - you can squeeze quite some people in using the size reduction and removing ground methods mentioned earlier. Let's assume you create a 100 mile radius sphere with a lightsource in the middle and doors/other methods of access on the outside. The surface area of said sphere is about 125000 square miles, the inside surface will be a bit smaller, depending on the thickness of the sphere wall, but not much. Taking today's Macau with a population density of 48,092/square mile as a baseline, you could fit in about 6 billion people. But we don't take in people as they are, we POA them into shimmerlings (4 inches tall), cinders (as big as a fleck of hot ash) or something similar. That raises the number of beings we can admit into our utopia considerably - to the point where we might even get in all the people of a standard campaign setting (excluding the infinite number of beings on other planes, of course).

So basically, unless it's a non-standard setting (very large population for medieval ages...) you end up with a miniature tippyverse where everybody who wants to be in can be in.
If it's a non-standard setting however, and not everybody can get in (perhaps because the current controller choses to limit the people allowed in), it would still influence its surroundings. The existence of such a kingdom would constitute an influence on surrounding empires. If knowledge of that place exists, it will draw lots of desperate people there. If the outside is the D&D standard world with monsters and bad life for commoners, many of those commoners might try to leave their homes (think the emigration after the Irish Potatoe famine as an example). I guess it would be kind of like the promised land for them - I mean, sure, you've now become an artifact's toy, but you're a rich, content, happy toy.
That's, of course, assuming a ruler who thinks the benefits of living in removableTippyverse outweigh the downsides, and thus doesn't make immigration totally impossible.

Fiery Diamond
2010-08-05, 11:42 AM
Polymorph any object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) can create living creatures. You just need to make a sculpture of a human out of organic matter, then cast the spell on it.

Yes, you can also polymorph dead creatures into living creatures (which do not possess the original's mind), but you run the risk of losing a few limbs or having your soul stuck in a suit of armor.

FMA reference FTW!
(Just the original anime, however, is referenced here. The manga/second anime have a different take.)

Randalor
2010-08-05, 01:02 PM
There is one thing that I havn't seen mentioned. This is a realm where death has become meaningless, and you can have *virtually* anything your heart desires given to you. Over time, it's people will become desensitized to the "mundain" pleasures, and will begin seeking more unusual "pleasures of the flesh." While there is someone in charge of the wishes who could put a stop to most of them, that person is not immortal, and the successor will not necessary have the same restrictions as his predecessor, and the bar for what is allowed or not allowed is lowered a bit more. The unusual becomes mundain, and people search for new pleasures.

Give a few generations, and you may have a city who's population resemble something out of Hellraiser, and who's idea of paradise is our hell.

Lysander
2010-08-05, 01:12 PM
There is one thing that I havn't seen mentioned. This is a realm where death has become meaningless, and you can have *virtually* anything your heart desires given to you. Over time, it's people will become desensitized to the "mundain" pleasures, and will begin seeking more unusual "pleasures of the flesh." While there is someone in charge of the wishes who could put a stop to most of them, that person is not immortal, and the successor will not necessary have the same restrictions as his predecessor, and the bar for what is allowed or not allowed is lowered a bit more. The unusual becomes mundain, and people search for new pleasures.

Give a few generations, and you may have a city who's population resemble something out of Hellraiser, and who's idea of paradise is our hell.

Except this isn't a world where everyone gets wishes. Just the ruler. And the ruler only has so much time in the day. His wishes will mostly be works for the public good, like wishing houses into existence or wishing a bridge to appear over a river. Occasionally he may help individuals out with a few resurrections or heal spells. But he's not going to have the time or the inclination to cater to random whims of his citizens.

White Blade
2010-08-05, 02:02 PM
I'd create a city based around one prominent principle, namely, summoning angels. The Holy City of The Angels, my great and glorious kingdom of a hundred miles existing as, effectively, a little bit of Celestia shipped onto earth. Step one is to call a Planetar, using Planar Binding (Greater). Then, I release it if it is not sympathetic to my goals but if it is sympathetic to my goals I allow it do as it wishes in service of those goals. Since we are aware that Planetar has 17th level cleric spells, its a pretty easy step to wait a day and a night for that Planetar to prepare nothing but Gate in his ninth level slot. He then summons 2 Solars of his familiarity. If Solars reproduce via the human means, hopefully a married couple looking for somewhere to settle down. If not, oh well, we're still ridiculous and, of course, the Solars will be able to court mortals.

Once these two solars are present and willing to help, I have two 20th level Gestalt Fighter/Clerics. I have several uses of miracle, no strings attached, and I have the ability to Gate in more Solars as is needed. I'm more than willing to submit to the will of the Solars as our leaders, so its all good if they decide not to.

If the Solars are still listening to me, then the next step is to prepare for a day nothing but Create Water (after I use thirty wishes on them to increase their INT, WIS, and CHA scores, naturally) which is something like 2440 gallons apiece of clean, rain water. To make things easy on us, I summon some earth elementals to clear future lakes for the water (though I won't tell the elementals that). I don't know how long we'd need to do this for, if things would take to long, we'll just summon in more planetars to help us and more solars, if they're willing and there are enough of them.

Once we have large, bounteous quantities of permanent fresh water, we're really in the clear, so far as such things go. The Solars will screen each individual who enters the city with a personal interview and then we'll amp their abilities using Wish. After that, we'll use them to work crops and do various other things within the city. Their products will be exported to the outside world. If, at some point, some lunatic decides its time to take my City, I crush him against the wall with my Solar/Planetar army. The exports, meanwhile, will earn permanent gold and prestige. Hopefully we can train some clerics with these Solars floating around and make them create a nigh infinite supply of Create Water wands, thereby ending the need for water, and a nigh infinite supply of Create Food and Drink wands as well. That done, we should have a city full of the great artisans of the world amped to full force, building up and improving things as I wish them materials to practice on. Actual materials will be mined by Stone Golems.

Randalor
2010-08-05, 02:53 PM
Except this isn't a world where everyone gets wishes. Just the ruler. And the ruler only has so much time in the day. His wishes will mostly be works for the public good, like wishing houses into existence or wishing a bridge to appear over a river. Occasionally he may help individuals out with a few resurrections or heal spells. But he's not going to have the time or the inclination to cater to random whims of his citizens.

Well, the ruler can't be affected by his wishes, and has to be at least moderately benevolent to his subjects, hence the "Death is meaningless" part of what I said. The rest was meant as a long-term prediction of what would happen. I mean, yes, the first few rulers would be busy with things to improve the overall life of the people, creating food and water supplies, and improving the overall happiness of the people, eventually the Xth generation king will start granting people's requests *perhapse everyone gets one wish a month/year, so everyone will get a wish.* I was giving the eventual long-term prediction for such a kingdom.

fryplink
2010-08-05, 03:04 PM
I mostly agree with Milski's analysis - Tippyverse or place that is amazing to live in but essentially a self-imposed prison.


Only if you grant everyone's every whim. If you intentionally wish for things that only improve the land, but not the people within it, (EX: instead of wishing for food, wish for the most furtile soil in the world, if we have to remove things three times the first would be the soil, the second would be the food, and the third the people who eat it. as such, you couldn't remove the food but could remove the people who ate it. If you needed another removal, wish for furtilizer that works extrememly well. [granted I wrote mine based on a second removal is safe premise])

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-05, 04:52 PM
If you do it right, the outside world ceases to have relevance. With a 100 mile sphere, using techniques like those detailed here, (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19571514/3.5_Psion_Buildguide_and_Compendium&post_num=16#332676478) you can create sufficient terrain to contain billions of people. Notice that the calculations in that post are based on 192 Genesis cycles that result in a sphere with an approximately 6.5 mile radius. With a 100 mile radius the numbers go up tremendously; we're talking trillions, quadrillions, I don't know how many people.

The creation process would be complex, but Wish is powerful enough to use modified permanent Reverse Gravity spells to create an effect pretty much identical to the objective directional gravity necessary to create the world described in that above post. Worst case scenario, you'd have to research a custom spell to create directional gravity instead of just reversed gravity, and then have Wish duplicate that spell and make it permanent as many times as necessary. Creating this thing would probably take years, all things considered.

In the end, however, it would be easily possible to allow every living creature in the world that wants to, to live within your wish-kingdom. As time goes on, the rest of the world would dwindle to nothingness.

At that point the trick would be using the wishes to create ideal living conditions. Controlling weather for year-round fertility minimizes the number of farmers needed and the amount of space needed for crops. Furthermore, you could accelerate the growth of anything used for food or resources. No need to directly create things, just arrange for the sources to be self-replenishing. Metal and such may be an issue, but could easily be solved by making entire layers of the hollow sphere-world out of self-replenishing ores, making them able to be infinitely mined. Wood wouldn't be a problem because you'd have certain areas designated as ultra-fast-growth forests, and so on.

As for keeping the peace, this would probably require more customized spell research, but specifically designing spells for that purpose would be simple enough. Create a type of construct that can use powerful divinations to determine the truth of any crimes, set up command words by which anyone inside the sphere can summon one of these constructs, and have them punish the guilty. Their divination abilities would ensure they never get the wrong person. Similarly, constructs could be used as an infinite source of menial labor. Have waste disposal constructs equipped with the ability to disintegrate, for instance, maintenance constructs that keep the roads and infrastructure in good condition, constructs that cast healing spells, and handle pretty much any other magical function might be needed by the innumerable citizens. Automation would be key, so that the artifact-holder just has to wish construct-creation systems into place (probably using multiple wishes to create the system, but possible).

If people outside want to attack or invade, your construct army can easily handle pretty much any possible attack. You might have a one mile 'shell' region with what amounts to a massive anti-magic shell, with a massive prismatic sphere inside of that, all maintained by constructs that can repair any particular area of the thing (it wouldn't be a single massive sphere, it would in fact be a massive amount of AMZ's and prismatic walls, basically), as well as combat-capable constructs with the right tools to take out any potential threat. All these could be custom-designed and created constructs.

Gods would present something of a sticky issue, though. In a campaign setting like the Realms where there are many, many gods and they are all highly active in the affairs of the world, none of this would work. There would be enough of them that would take issue with this to make it impossible to run anything that would have huge effects on the rest of the world - no matter what you try to do, there's going to be a whole bunch of gods opposed to it, and basically one of them would probably just pop down and kill the user of the artifact, opening the door for another user to not be quite so disruptive. Anyone who tried to make massive changes to the whole of the world would find themselves divinely executed, most likely. Of course, in a setting where the gods are silent or absent, taking no active role in the world, like Eberron, then no problem.

Milskidasith
2010-08-05, 05:00 PM
Only if you grant everyone's every whim. If you intentionally wish for things that only improve the land, but not the people within it, (EX: instead of wishing for food, wish for the most furtile soil in the world, if we have to remove things three times the first would be the soil, the second would be the food, and the third the people who eat it. as such, you couldn't remove the food but could remove the people who ate it. If you needed another removal, wish for furtilizer that works extrememly well. [granted I wrote mine based on a second removal is safe premise])

Yeah, the problem is, I assumed that "influenced by the wish" doesn't arbitrarily cut out at a certain point, because that still leads to the tippyverse if you have a convoluted enough method of gaining more wishes (Wish for some monsters to train an artificer on, who then makes a scroll of gate, which you use to bring in something with a wish, which you use to get a candle of invocation, which you use to bring in something else, which you use to start your chain of wishes).

There's no solution that isn't "tippyverse" or "self induced prison" without an arbitrary "no Tippyverse" rule.

Granted, you can fit everybody in, so it isn't much of a prison... but not everybody would want to go into there, nor would many forms of life be capable of doing so. Eventually, there would be a situation where some race/group that didn't go in made significant progress on their own.

The outside world is just as irrelevant to the wishasphere as the wishasphere is to the outside world; if you don't want to go in, it does absolutely nothing besides providing a place for people to be exiled/commit what is, for the outside world, effective suicide.

The thing is, when the artifact stops, so does the civilization, which is bad for the rest of the world. A smart leader wouldn't jam pack trillions of people into the wishasphere and give them immortality, because the God of Death ports in, disjuncts the artifact, and laughs as the trillions of people all die. It could also anger other gods, but I'd say an immortal society of more people than the world ever had would get on Death's nerves first.

EDIT: There's also the possibility of Disjuncting the artifact with a person inside the civilization, but I assume that is unlikely enough that it wouldn't work.

fryplink
2010-08-05, 08:30 PM
Granted, you can fit everybody in, so it isn't much of a prison... but not everybody would want to go into there, nor would many forms of life be capable of doing so. Eventually, there would be a situation where some race/group that didn't go in made significant progress on their own.

The outside world is just as irrelevant to the wishasphere as the wishasphere is to the outside world; if you don't want to go in, it does absolutely nothing besides providing a place for people to be exiled/commit what is, for the outside world, effective suicide.



I imagine with creativity you could contain everyone who wanted entry, and have it be hospitable (as long as the creature isn't allergic to magic, but the, why wouldn't want entry) Just remember to super-shrink them and give them their own mini-sphere if they need a specific climate

Milskidasith
2010-08-05, 08:31 PM
I imagine with creativity you could contain everyone who wanted entry, and have it be hospitable (as long as the creature isn't allergic to magic, but the, why wouldn't want entry) Just remember to super-shrink them and give them their own mini-sphere if they need a specific climate

What does this have to do with what I said? I never denied you could keep them all in there, I just said anybody who didn't want to go in would be the people controlling the entire planet (save the wishasphere), not the people inside.

Otodetu
2010-08-07, 04:51 PM
Industry.

Machines like printing presses, fine tools, and advanced forges would allow the kingdom to import raw materials and refining them to get a export material that is worth more than the investment.

Milskidasith
2010-08-07, 05:05 PM
Industry.

Machines like printing presses, fine tools, and advanced forges would allow the kingdom to import raw materials and refining them to get a export material that is worth more than the investment.

Any goods created by the machines are destroyed when they leave the wishasphere. Not only that, but raw materials have no relevance when you can wish for true creation.

Again, there are three logical conclusions for this:

If you have anything not directly caused by the wish be capable of leaving, you get the Tippyverse. Likewise, if there is a set "degrees of separation," whether it's two steps, twenty, or two hundred, it still results in the tippyverse with only moderate craftiness; in all honesty, all you have to do is wish for something that gets a wish, and keep making wishes until you surpass the limit and can get your own wishing capability.

If anything ever influenced by the wish is counteracted when it leaves, people could, in theory, enter and leave easily enough, but anything created in the wishasphere would disappear (or perhaps return to raw materials, if imported, but still functionally it might as well not have been improved), including people (they're essentially powered by the wishes 100%, albeit indirectly).

If the wishes are somehow capable of stopping Tippyverse shenanigans but still letting things leave (fuzzy rules, basically), then everything everybody else has saying might actually occur.

Randel
2010-08-07, 05:37 PM
Okay, if this Kingdom of Wishes has such a strict enfocement of its "Nothing made by a wish can leave the kingdom" rule that paper printed using imported ink and paper and printed using a wished-for printing press then its not really a kingdom.

If you're so afraid of Wishtown flooding the world with fancy shoes made from imported leather and thread and crafted by wished-for cobbler elves then you might as well say that the whole kingdom is an illusion.

Its not a kingdom, its a 100-mile radius chunk of the Earth that was ripped out and replaced with a spherical portal to Heaven. Once you step inside you just find yourself in an illusionary dream-machine where you never feel hunger or pain or death and can imagine all sort of wonderful things happening. Just when you exit the bubble then all your illusionary stuff vanishes as well.

The outer rim of the bubble is resistant to scrying attempts and anyone who enters has all their biological needs taken care of by the magical field. They spend their time in a dreamworld where they never die while in reality their bodies get older. Once they reach a certain point then the magic of the area keeps them alive but the second they leave the bubble they die of old age.

While the average occupant has only limited ability to alter their surroundings in the illusionary dreamworld there is an immovable stone (or maybe a throne or a bed) in the center who's linked owner has greater control over the dreamworld. The dreamlord has near total control over what happens in the dreamworld but he himself is not protected by the bubbles life-saving field. Once he reaches the point where he will die of old age then he dies, if he's already too old when he links to the stone then he has enough time for one 'wish' before he dies of old age, the Dreamlord can give up his link to the stone before he dies of old age and let a new dreamlord take his place.


So yeah, if you're going to allow for unlimited wishes but are afraid of the completely natural and inevitable game breakery that such a thing will inevitably result in then do yourself a favor and just say its all an illusionary dreamworld. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Thats like saying that rocks fall when you drop them off bridges.

If its an illusionary world then you can do whatever you want inside the bubble and you don't have to worry about what happens when stuff leaves.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-07, 05:42 PM
That's a bit of an overreaction considering there are multiple ways to make the City influence the Outside.

mabriss lethe
2010-08-07, 06:33 PM
I see it as something that would eventually become a decadent society, in many respects similar to Melnibone from the Elric saga. The people would live in varying degrees of luxury while wallowing in a trough of ever more perverse entertainments. The wisher may be relatively altruistic, but those who benefit from his abilities are under no such restrictions.

Some ideas:
-Who rules? Does the wisher actually rule the kingdom? It might actually be seen as sort of a punishment. Whomever controls the wishes can never benefit from them, can never cheat death, etc. It sounds like there would be a "true ruler", someone who may have once been the wisher, but not necessarily. He calls the shots and another does the deed.

-A Hall of Keepers: What is considered to be the traditional first deed of a new wisher? probably resurrect his dead predecessor. They would be able to benefit from various means of immortality and would have the knowhow to keep a new wisher in line. (possibly the artifact could imbue these keepers with an extra little something as a "thank you" Their years of experience in wielding it grants them the ability to accept or decline the power of the artifact at their leisure. They act as a "power behind the throne" to keep the current wisher in line.

-Decadence: Perhaps in the early days of this wish kingdom, the artifact's first wielders had been more responsible, wishing for things that would allow the kingdom to prosper on its own, It became a center for learning, training the finest in the land. tools and weapons made in the old era are some of the finest the world has ever known, fetching a high price in any kingdom. The new order, however, is less responsible. They use the wishes with less discrimination. Raising the standard of living immeasurably while the old methods have all fallen by the wayside.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-07, 06:42 PM
-A Hall of Keepers: What is considered to be the traditional first deed of a new wisher? probably resurrect his dead predecessor. They would be able to benefit from various means of immortality and would have the knowhow to keep a new wisher in line. (possibly the artifact could imbue these keepers with an extra little something as a "thank you" Their years of experience in wielding it grants them the ability to accept or decline the power of the artifact at their leisure. They act as a "power behind the throne" to keep the current wisher in line.

Wishhalla! This sure can be some icing on top of the cake for those Barrier Maidens. Wishers do not have exactly easy lives, carrying responsibility beyond what most are willing to bear.


-Decadence: Perhaps in the early days of this wish kingdom, the artifact's first wielders had been more responsible, wishing for things that would allow the kingdom to prosper on its own, It became a center for learning, training the finest in the land. tools and weapons made in the old era are some of the finest the world has ever known, fetching a high price in any kingdom. The new order, however, is less responsible. They use the wishes with less discrimination. Raising the standard of living immeasurably while the old methods have all fallen by the wayside.
This one, instead, brings an excellent campaign-wide setup: What if the Outside world grew to rely on things the City exports? Suddenly the high speed trains that connect cities are no longer maintained. Wards put on many royal castles fade. The incognito threat of enemy kingdoms hiring elite strategists and warriors disappears, spurring more eager nations to war. Sciences the society grew to rely on (engineering, medicine) lose their main keepers and start fading into barbarism since the loss of the best teachers...