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Human Paragon 3
2010-08-04, 03:04 PM
If my players' party is brushing up against a large orc war party (say, a few hundred souls) how big would the rear guard be? The advanced guard? What would the makeup be? How far from the main force would they be?

This applies to other armies too, not just orc armies. It just happens to be orcs today.

Thinker
2010-08-04, 03:44 PM
That really depends on the tactics utilized by the military force. For example, an army could use shock troops as a forward guard with the main force pushing through the opposing army's main formations, with the rear guard being used for mop up (blitzkrieg style). Alternatively, the rear guard could be used as a reserve of forces for the main force. Another use is as light skirmishers to protect against retreat (General Lee perfected this method).

What is your orc army doing? What are it's fighting habits and composition overall?

Furnok
2010-08-04, 03:52 PM
It really depends on the terrain are you in the mountains, forest, or the open plains. In the open plains there wouldn’t be that much of a forward scout because you could see an enemy from miles away. But in the case of mountains and forest there would most likely be a lot of forward scouts/guard (So that they cant be flanked or surprised). Also depending of the army’s commander style (Is the commander reckless, defensive, or smart), but in this case you are talking about Orcs I would assume their commander to not be very smart.

As to a rear guard again how smart/what is his style if he is reckless he would leave the rear very lightly guarded or if he were defensive he would have it heavily guarded. Agai most of this depends on your opponent and their goals.

Subotei
2010-08-04, 05:17 PM
I think the vanguard should be sufficient to find, engage and hold the enemy in place until the main body can come up to destroy it. Finding the enemy should be the job of scouts - relying mainly on stealth and mobility to get out of trouble and report back on the location of the enemy. Classically this is the role of light cavalry or similar. The bulk of the vanguard should be a mix of units able to fight a holding action until the main army appears - so emphasis should be on fast units capable defending themselves.

The rearguard would probably be similar to the vanguard. How big it would be would be in relation to the terrain being marched across - in lands you know or friendly lands you could afford to reduce it. I'd say probably 10-20% of total numbers for each of the vanguard and rearguard leaving 60-80% in the main body. So for 500 orcs say 10-25 mounted scouts plus 40-75 (some also mounted) fast warriors in the vanguard.

I'm not sure of the distance away from the main body - my guess would be not more than an hour at full gallop away.

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-04, 05:26 PM
Terrain: Wooded hills. Visibility is pretty low, but from a good vantage point you can see more.

Purpose: The war party is a mercanary group joining up with a larger force many leagues away at their stronghold.

jiriku
2010-08-04, 05:40 PM
Both types of forces should be mobile, so that they can rapidly rejoin the main force and inform commanders if they encounters something important. In open terrain, that probably means cavalry, either conventional or aerial. In very rugged terrain, it probably means foot troops, either barbarians and scouts for their greater mobility, or druids and rangers and high-level scouts for their ability to move quickly through difficult terrain.

If the commander is cautious or moving through hostile terrain, the forward forces are probably stealthy. If he is brash or pushing ahead with the intent to meet and engage the enemy, forward elements may be heavy or assault troops. Burrowing troops with tremorsense might be another option, but most burrowing creatures lack the requisite speed.

Furnok
2010-08-05, 07:58 AM
If this is a mercenary group then they should have professional soldiers or at least their commander is intelligent enough to not be reckless. If they were moving through enemy territory they would not send out a scouting group out in force, but they would send out only their best ranger/rogues to scout so that they go unnoticed as possible. If time is an issue they would move in one big unit with no baggage train the would try to forge off the land/pillage villages, but try to never get into any time consuming engagements. If they are in no hurry/being cautious they will only move as fast as their baggage train and they would be heavily supplied, they would sent out 15-25% of their fastest troops to scout/recon so that the main force can avoid any engagements.

Thinker
2010-08-05, 08:40 AM
Terrain: Wooded hills. Visibility is pretty low, but from a good vantage point you can see more.

Purpose: The war party is a mercanary group joining up with a larger force many leagues away at their stronghold.

Given that their purpose is not to engage the enemy, but to get to their location, they will likely have a smaller vanguard whose purpose is to identify threats and hazards and quickly report back to the main force unseen. Likewise the rearguard is not there to provide reinforcements for engagement, nor to perform mop-up duty and so should also be lightly manned.

The vanguard should be approximately 5% - 10%of the total force and should be made up of quick scouts (not necessarily the class), likely armed with projectile weapons. They should not engage the enemy, though if they are attacked they should at least release a volley on their pursuers while running. If their escape route is cutoff, they should release a couple of their number to try report back to the main force, while defending their position as best they can and providing cover for those attempting escape. They also should not pursue the force that attacked them, should that force retreat. They should be no more than 30 minutes away from the main force since that is as long as a professional soldier carrying equipment and the like could be reasonably expected to run. They should also be equipped with the means to quickly signal danger via horns, flares, or magic (whichever is most appropriate) that can be visible or audible from the main force.

The rearguard should also be approximately 5% - 10% of the total force and should be made of light fighters, though not necessarily as well equipped for scouting as the vanguard. Their purpose is twofold: First, they should try to dispatch of any opposing scouts that are trying to spy on them, but should not pursue them, nor should they attack a force that is as large as they are. Second, they should be providing reports back to the main force about activity behind them, particularly if it is more than they can handle. Like the vanguard, the rearguard should be no more than 30 minutes away from the main force. They should also be equipped with means to communicate rapidly with the main force.

Grogmir
2010-08-05, 08:52 AM
Finding the enemy should be the job of scouts.... Classically this is the role of light cavalry or similar.

Not many armies have an 'advanced guard' (because all you're actually doing then is attacking piecemeal.) They rely of very mobile scouts to find the enemy then attack as one.
Rear Guards are normally understrength units when on the march. You might be thinking of a 'Reserve' this is different to Rear guard. The Reserve is often the best troops, Napoleons 'Elite Guard' being the obvious example to confuse the issue :smalltongue:

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-05, 09:19 AM
This thread has been really helpful. Thanks for the replies, guys!

Yora
2010-08-05, 10:38 AM
A traveling army will usually have lots of equipment with them, like carts with food, spare weapons, tools for repair, and so on. I also wonder if soldiers always wore full armor when traveling on foot (though some people have told me armor is easier to wear than to carry in a bag).
So I imagine such an army would be very badly prepared for ambushes. With just five minutes to prepare, there would still be a chance to gather the carts and wagons into tight groups and surround them with spearmen who anticipate an attack. This makes the army probably a lot faster than everyone being ready for battle 24/7.

Lapak
2010-08-05, 10:47 AM
Given that their purpose is not to engage the enemy, but to get to their location, they will likely have a smaller vanguard whose purpose is to identify threats and hazards and quickly report back to the main force unseen.


Not many armies have an 'advanced guard' (because all you're actually doing then is attacking piecemeal.) They rely of very mobile scouts to find the enemy then attack as one.
Rear Guards are normally understrength units when on the march. You might be thinking of a 'Reserve' this is different to Rear guard. The Reserve is often the best troops, Napoleons 'Elite Guard' being the obvious example to confuse the issue :smalltongue:

As Subotei pointed out, it depends on the kind of force you're talking about. An army moving into enemy territory and expecting guerilla-style resistance would indeed have a combat-equipped vanguard made up of troops tough enough to endure combat and mobile enough to force it. The point of a vanguard is not to protect the main force from surprise attack - that's what scouts are for - but to engage the enemy and tie them up so the main force can come down on them. A full army often maneuvers slowly; breaking off a mobile chunk that is nonetheless tough enough to stand up in a fight gives you a operational 'reach' that you otherwise lack.

EDIT: And not just run down faster enemies, but deny more substantial ones the ground or position they want. A force that arrives half an hour before your main body can take a hill that you're both marching toward and hold it, keep your enemy from getting fortifications in place, or create a number of other advantages - especially if the enemy knows that attacking them means committing to battle with the rest of your troops coming down the road.

Thinker
2010-08-05, 11:03 AM
As Subotei pointed out, it depends on the kind of force you're talking about. An army moving into enemy territory and expecting guerilla-style resistance would indeed have a combat-equipped vanguard made up of troops tough enough to endure combat and mobile enough to force it. The point of a vanguard is not to protect the main force from surprise attack - that's what scouts are for - but to engage the enemy and tie them up so the main force can come down on them. A full army often maneuvers slowly; breaking off a mobile chunk that is nonetheless tough enough to stand up in a fight gives you a operational 'reach' that you otherwise lack.

EDIT: And not just run down faster enemies, but deny more substantial ones the ground or position they want. A force that arrives half an hour before your main body can take a hill that you're both marching toward and hold it, keep your enemy from getting fortifications in place, or create a number of other advantages - especially if the enemy knows that attacking them means committing to battle with the rest of your troops coming down the road.

And the OP said that the group was traveling through a wooded area to join with a larger force. I did not read an indication that they were expecting to be harassed or ambushed in any way, nor are they traveling through hostile territory. I am using the term vanguard to refer to both the group of forward soldiers and to the scouts of the army since I have heard it referred to this way before.

Lapak
2010-08-05, 11:08 AM
And the OP said that the group was traveling through a wooded area to join with a larger force. I did not read an indication that they were expecting to be harassed or ambushed in any way, nor are they traveling through hostile territory. I am using the term vanguard to refer to both the group of forward soldiers and to the scouts of the army since I have heard it referred to this way before.Fair enough. I read 'war party' as 'invading war party', and it stuck in my head that way. As you point out, I actually have no reason to do this, and is if anything that much less likely given his description later of them traveling without a particular battle in mind. You're probably right.

herrhauptmann
2010-08-05, 03:01 PM
Not many armies have an 'advanced guard' (because all you're actually doing then is attacking piecemeal.) They rely of very mobile scouts to find the enemy then attack as one.
Rear Guards are normally understrength units when on the march. You might be thinking of a 'Reserve' this is different to Rear guard. The Reserve is often the best troops, Napoleons 'Elite Guard' being the obvious example to confuse the issue :smalltongue:

Don't think most groups would have a vanguard unless they're actually about to head into battle. Which would probably be the most mobile and also devastating combatants they have. For the historical example, light cavalry like the Hussars could get several charges in before the main force of foot arrived, effectively disabling whichever section of the army they just ran over repeatedly.
Not sure how much space should be between your vanguard and main army. It would depend on terrain, what you're attacking, and composition of your forces.

If they're just marching to a rendezvous, scouts would be sent out in ones or twos in all directions. Perhaps with scouts being concentrated in a certain region, such as if you're trying to bypass a superior enemy (skill/numbers), you'd want more scouts in the region you expect them to be in, that way you're more likely to intercept their own scouts, and find out in advance if they're coming for you.

A reserve unit on the battlefield itself could be your heavy cav (to exploit breakthroughs, punish overextended enemy, or plug a gap in your lines), or it could be the guttertrash of your army, the ones you don't trust with real work. All depends on the makeup of your army, and your own tactics (either can work).
If you have a welltrained reserve unit that doesn't get used because you've manifestly lost the battle, they could be put to use as a rearguard. Covering the retreat of the rest of your army to prevent it from becoming a rout. If the enemy charges to take advantage of your retreat, the rearguard could countercharge them, disrupting their attack, giving your men time to withdraw in good order, perhaps even set up new defensive positions.

Subotei
2010-08-05, 05:38 PM
Rear Guards are normally understrength units when on the march. You might be thinking of a 'Reserve' this is different to Rear guard. The Reserve is often the best troops, Napoleons 'Elite Guard' being the obvious example to confuse the issue :smalltongue:

Hi - no I wasn't confusing rear guard and reserve. Typically the rear guard was the units forming the left flank of the army: - marching in column but switching to a line deployment for fighting, the right flank units usually formed van, the centre formed the centre and the left flank the rearguard. A quite efficient setup and flexible if surprised - the slow heavy units in the centre have to do the least manovering. Reserves are like you say usually the best (or most experienced) held back as the commander's ace up the sleeve.

Yukitsu
2010-08-05, 05:45 PM
An important question, IMO, is what era you're refering to?

Edit: also, a war mob of a few hundred is probably not going to run a proper rear-guard regardless. At that operational level, you don't really need to worry about the time lag and logistical reach problems that you would have for say, 17K French dudes at Agincourt.

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-05, 05:47 PM
Like LOTR orcs.

Yukitsu
2010-08-06, 01:09 PM
A couple of outriders making sure no one's trying to outflank them. A tactical rear guard to cover a retreat or to delay a rear assault requires larger armies.