Wild Conjecture #652.4A

[Ozymandias9]

It's all been a massive epic illusion since the explosion in the desert. Belkar dies because he has low wisdom and fails his save to disbelieve.

[LuPuWei]

It's all been a massive epic illusion since the explosion in the desert. Belkar dies because he has low wisdom and fails his save to disbelieve.

Wow. Inceptionesque, but I like it! Its all an elaborate way for Girard to find out what they're really after!

Maybe Belkar dies cause Girard figures out he's Evil and won't free him at all.

I'd miss Tarquin and Malak tho...

[Zeta Kai]

I'd miss Tarquin and Malak tho...

There is no Tarquin & Malak! YOU MADE THEM UP!! :smalleek:

[suszterpatt]

I can picture Mr. Burlew sitting in front of his computer, reading this thread, his jaw dropping open, then after a moment of being frozen with shock he angrily mumbles "damnit, now I'll have to think of something else" and deletes the drafts of the next 50 strips he'd already prepared.

[Comet]

It could've been an illusion all along.

Since strip 1.

[TheMac04]

It could've been an illusion all along.

Since strip 1.
More like since before strip 1. We've gotten enough backstory for it to pretty much have to be this way.

[Thufir]

The whole strip, nay, the whole world of OotS and all events which take place therein, could just be a fabrication! They could all be made up![/sarc]

[TheMac04]

The whole strip, nay, the whole world of OotS and all events which take place therein, could just be a fabrication! They could all be made up![/sarc]
No! NO! It CAN'T BE!

[Nimrod's Son]

In before someone mentions the Matrix.

[TheMac04]

In before someone mentions the Matrix.
THE MATR-*shot*

[Marnath]

*blows on the smoking gun barrel* So now... matrix eh? Shame they never made a sequel. :smallbiggrin:

[LuPuWei]

I forget, did V go for the red sphere or the blue sphere?

[Dancing_Fox]

It's all been a massive epic illusion since the explosion in the desert. Belkar dies because he has low wisdom and fails his save to disbelieve.

I love the conceit. Good one!

But even English teachers dread stories ending "But it turned out to be all a dream" and try to discourage that literary technique.

(Oh . . . and could we strive to make our thread titles a bit clearer? Thanks.)

[ThePhantasm]

I'm glad you all are mentioning this so that it WON'T end up being the case. :smallsmile:

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm glad you all are mentioning this so that it WON'T end up being the case. :smallsmile:
Oh, this won't be the case, sure, but the reason for that is not because everyone is saying it. :smallamused:

[137beth]

No! NO! It CAN'T BE!

In fact, it is! Rich just made it up:smallsmile:

[LuPuWei]

But even English teachers dread stories ending "But it turned out to be all a dream" and try to discourage that literary technique.


Well, given that Girard is an illusionist, is it such a bad idea, applied only to the Girard arc?

(Also does anyone here read Piers Anthony?)

[Barstro]

I can picture Mr. Burlew sitting in front of his computer, reading this thread, his jaw dropping open, then after a moment of being frozen with shock he angrily mumbles "damnit, now I'll have to think of something else" and deletes the drafts of the next 50 strips he'd already prepared.

I've always wondered about that. I hope that he doesn't actually read these boards himself; for this exact reason. Hopefully, instead, he has someone else read the boards and point him to any thread that requires Giant input.

[factotum]

I've always wondered about that. I hope that he doesn't actually read these boards himself; for this exact reason. Hopefully, instead, he has someone else read the boards and point him to any thread that requires Giant input.

I believe he prefers plot speculation to be clearly marked with spoilers in some way. A thread titled "Wild Conjecture" is probably going to be obviously enough about possible plot developments that he wouldn't read it.

[TheMac04]

In fact, it is! Rich just made it up:smallsmile:
Yeah, that would be the joke bro.

[Danne]

I've always wondered about that. I hope that he doesn't actually read these boards himself; for this exact reason. Hopefully, instead, he has someone else read the boards and point him to any thread that requires Giant input.

He doesn't. Too tired* to find the place(s) where he says that, but he doesn't read plot conjecture, and even if he accidentally does he doesn't change his plot because of it. (Except with little things, like V's gender.)

Love the idea, btw. Not going to happen (and don't think I'd want it to) but it's very twisted. Love it. :smallbiggrin:

*Why am I always exhausted when I'm on these boards...?

[Nimrod's Son]

In the (painfully out-of-date) FAQ he says he's tempted to change the plot if someone guesses it right, but nowhere has he said that he's ever actually done it. And that was a very long time ago, I'd imagine the plot is a lot more concrete now than it was back then.

The forums were ablaze with speculation that the spiky-helmeted general was Elan's father when he first appeared, and he didn't change that, for example.

[kusje]

The forums were ablaze with speculation that the spiky-helmeted general was Elan's father when he first appeared, and he didn't change that, for example.

Didn't he first appear as Elan and Nale's father? If you're talking about him kidnapping Haley's father, we still don't know that to be true.

[Nimrod's Son]

Didn't he first appear as Elan and Nale's father? If you're talking about him kidnapping Haley's father, we still don't know that to be true.
I didn't mention anything to do with Haley's father. I have no idea how you made that connection. I'm talking about this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html).

Granted, it was only one strip before his identity was revealed, but still - the main discussion thread was stuffed full of people saying "I bet this is Elan's father" when that strip went up, even though we had nothing more to go on than "this guy's wearing a helmet, and we once saw Elan's dad wearing a helmet too".

Perhaps a better example would be the number of people who were speculating that Qarr would help V sell his soul to get Ultimate Arcane Power the minute this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) went up. Rich knows better than to change a good idea just because someone guesses what's going to happen, and in any case it's always the little details that keep things surprising anyway.

[kusje]

My bad. When you said "first appeared", I assumed you meant the very first strip that showed him - the one with him in a chariot.

[Nimrod's Son]

He wasn't wearing a spiky helmet in that strip, though. :smallwink:

[LuPuWei]

Perhaps a better example would be the number of people who were speculating that Qarr would help V sell his soul to get Ultimate Arcane Power the minute this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) went up.

Is there any consensus as to whether that was it- the fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy to V? I know a lot of people consider it so, but has it been confirmed?

[TheMac04]

Is there any consensus as to whether that was it- the fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy to V? I know a lot of people consider it so, but has it been confirmed?
I think The Giant has out-right stated that V will never be that powerful again, so I think it would have to be.

[Ancalagon]

Is there any consensus as to whether that was it- the fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy to V? I know a lot of people consider it so, but has it been confirmed?

First, re-read the comic. Really... this does not strike you as "super powerful"? The mind boggles.

Apart from that... yes, Rich has confirmed the prophecy is fullfilled and also outlined (for those for whom it was not obvious) that this was the Ultimate Arcane Power. That discussion is - luckily - simply over.

[Barstro]

Is there any consensus as to whether that was it- the fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy to V? I know a lot of people consider it so, but has it been confirmed?

Just so nobody scours the web for it; it was stated by Giant in one of the books.

[BadAndyMk3]

That would be a huge letdown. I've loved all the new characters the Girard storyline has introduced.

[LuPuWei]

Just so nobody scours the web for it; it was stated by Giant in one of the books.

Ok, gotcha.


First, re-read the comic. Really... this does not strike you as "super powerful"? The mind boggles.


Super powerful, yes, but Ultimate Arcane Power can mean a lot of things...

But anyway, since its canon, I'd rather not discuss it.

[Ancalagon]

Super powerful, yes, but Ultimate Arcane Power can mean a lot of things...

Well, could mean something shown in the comic as the "ultimate arcane power" Vaasuvius got? Or can you imagine some "arcane power" that is more "ultimate" than what Vaarsuvius got?

You brought it up, now you have to chew it to the end!

[LuPuWei]

Well, could mean something shown in the comic as the "ultimate arcane power" Vaasuvius got? Or can you imagine some "arcane power" that is more "ultimate" than what Vaarsuvius got?

You brought it up, now you have to chew it to the end!

Let me get back to you on that when I'm less sleep deprived :smallwink:

[TheMac04]

Well, could mean something shown in the comic as the "ultimate arcane power" Vaasuvius got? Or can you imagine some "arcane power" that is more "ultimate" than what Vaarsuvius got?

You brought it up, now you have to chew it to the end!
A splice with FOUR wizards in it!

[RndmNumGen]

A splice with FOUR wizards in it!

That would require an additional alignment however... and the Neutral outsiders don't seem to be the type to strike such a deal with fiends. Then again, Vaarsuvius is Neutral and she made the deal, so you never know.

Alternatively, if some new alignment crops up that is so bizarre that it doesn't fall into one of the existing ones but wouldn't have qualms working with fiends (Say, Chaotic Orange) that could work as well.

[TheMac04]

That would require an additional alignment however... and the Neutral outsiders don't seem to be the type to strike such a deal with fiends. Then again, Vaarsuvius is Neutral and she made the deal, so you never know.

Alternatively, if some new alignment crops up that is so bizarre that it doesn't fall into one of the existing ones but wouldn't have qualms working with fiends (Say, Chaotic Orange) that could work as well.
Chaotic....Orange?

[Morph Bark]

That would be a huge letdown. I've loved all the new characters the Girard storyline has introduced.

It doesn't mean they wouldn't still appear though. Imagine the Order teaming up with Gannji and Enor and all, going through some trials, then break out of the illusion, then later meeting them again while they are like "who the Baator are you?"


Chaotic....Orange?

Chaotic Mauve is what he meant. Obviously. :smallwink:

[rewinn]

Well, could mean something shown in the comic as the "ultimate arcane power" Vaasuvius got? Or can you imagine some "arcane power" that is more "ultimate" than what Vaarsuvius got?

You brought it up, now you have to chew it to the end!
Doilies? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

[Ancalagon]

Doilies? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

Ah, what race would Vaarsuvius kill then, with the Power of the Doily?

[LuPuWei]

Well, could mean something shown in the comic as the "ultimate arcane power" Vaasuvius got? Or can you imagine some "arcane power" that is more "ultimate" than what Vaarsuvius got?

You brought it up, now you have to chew it to the end!

Ok, to clarify first- I don't know much about D&D (never been in a position to play) so if you are saying V achieved Ultimate Arcane Power in the Soul-Splice arc by D&D standards, I have no idea what you mean by that and really can't argue. Perhaps he did. Ok :smallbiggrin:

But going by plot, and general mythic story telling, my arguement is two fold:

1) V was very, very powerful- scary powerful, but Ultimate Arcane Power seems to suggest no greater power is possible. V did have a bunch really cool spells thanks to the Splice-boost, but there wasn't evidence that that was the best anyone could possibly do. Wouldn't a splice involving every arcane caster ever known be more powerful? That seems more akin to Ultimate Power. I guess I expected to see something more epic :smalltongue:

2) The second argument I'll make (more importantly, I feel) is pretty much along the lines of Xykon's own reasoning in the arc. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) Power=Power. If you can blow it by losing two Will saves, you never really had any.... Its seems to me that Ultimate Arcane Power would involve the knowledge and mastery of Arcane Spellcraft on V's part, the later of which he clearly didn't have. It was a copy pasting of spells into V's book, where he probably wasn't even aware of what spells he had control of (the spirits had to keep whispering suggestions to her) That's no fun. Imagine V's aquisition of Ultimate Arcane power amounting to the purchase of a magic lamp containing the Ultimate Arcane Power Genie. V's four words are "Give me that lamp" and boom! V is in control of Ultimate Arcane Power. Which is pretty much the case here. That's a let down for me personally, which is why i thought this was more of a red herring fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy.

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius got exactly what s/he asked about: Complete and total ultimate arcane power. His/her arcane power dwarfed any other spellcaster. S/he didn't ask about knowledge, much less wisdom. As Xykon also pointed out, s/he assumed that "a bunch of spells" equaled omnipotence.

[Poppy Appletree]

Despite my absolute loathing for this type of resolution, this is most definitely my favourite epileptic tree at the moment. :smallbiggrin:

[Ancalagon]

Ok, to clarify first- I don't know much about D&D (never been in a position to play) so if you are saying V achieved Ultimate Arcane Power in the Soul-Splice arc by D&D standards, I have no idea what you mean by that and really can't argue. Perhaps he did. Ok :smallbiggrin:

There are no D&D-standards for this.


1) V was very, very powerful- scary powerful, but Ultimate Arcane Power seems to suggest no greater power is possible.

Yes, you make the very, very same mistake Vaarsuvius made. That was the entire point of it. Buy the book, read Rich's comment. Really, your approach is a mistake. You "assume", you "feel", but the point is no arcane power can be big enough to solve the issue that was presented. That was the mistake.


V did have a bunch really cool spells thanks to the Splice-boost, but there wasn't evidence that that was the best anyone could possibly do.


Come on... what "bigger" can there be? Level 14 Wizard + 3* level 2x is more than anyone can ever do. And, hum, we have a Word of God it is the biggest, most ultimate arcane thing anyone can ever do. In OotS universe, there is no bigger arcane power than that.
Rich said so. Did I say you should buy the book?


Wouldn't a splice involving every arcane caster ever known be more powerful? That seems more akin to Ultimate Power. I guess I expected to see something more epic :smalltongue:

Apparently, this is not what happens. It might not even be possible. In all cases, it's not going to make a difference. Vaasuvius HAD all the power but power is not only about power but also how you use it. That is what Vaarsuvius learned.
Also, Vaarsuvius wanted "Ultimate Power" but asked for "Ultimate Arcane Power". He wanted the first, asked for the second, and got the second. Another mistake he made. No, it's the same. As he "assumed" that "Ultimate Arcane Power" would mean "Ultimate Power". He was wrong.


2) The second argument I'll make (more importantly, I feel)

Good. The first was not very powerful. So make it better.


Its seems to me that Ultimate Arcane Power would involve the knowledge and mastery of Arcane Spellcraft on V's part, the later of which he clearly didn't have.

Now, does it? "It seems". Again, you assume something. You assume just because someone asks for being "Invincible Power" they should also get the Wisdom to use it.
Wisdom usually is not used in the same sentence with Power, they are different. Power + Wisdom are needed, as any Power without Wisdom is not good. But if you have Wisdom, you do not need that much Power anymore.
See how Xykon and Redcloak defeated the much more powerful Vaarsuvius with a bit teamwork and a bit thinking.



It was a copy pasting of spells into V's book, where he probably wasn't even aware of what spells he had control of (the spirits had to keep whispering suggestions to her)

I had the impression he was VERY aware of what he had. He talked about the familicide before Hearta whispered the word. No, Vaarsuvius was very aware his his power. He just used it as a sledgehammer and wondered why he lost.


That's no fun.

A) You are wrong and B) you only say that because Vaarsuvius lost while you assume and feel he should have won if his power was real. But his power was as real and as powerful as any power can ever get and he still lost. Because Xykon is wrong. Because it is not only about Power. That is the lesson Vaarsuvius learned but that you failed to see.


Imagine V's aquisition of Ultimate Arcane power amounting to the purchase of a magic lamp containing the Ultimate Arcane Power Genie. V's four words are "Give me that lamp" and boom! V is in control of Ultimate Arcane Power. Which is pretty much the case here. That's a let down for me personally, which is why i thought this was more of a red herring fulfillment of the Oracle's prophecy.

Why would that be bad? Why would your ultimate arcane power now be better than the ultimate arcane power Vaarsuvius already had?

The problem is not that the story was bad or that the prophecy was bad. It was that you expected something, namely that "Ultimate Arcane Power" would lead to "Win, win, win". Now that your expectation has not been satisfied you claim you got cheated, even if there are perfectly valid explanations what happened, including the author's word why "there is no arcane power more ultimate than what Vaarsuvius got".

I think the power vs. wisdom nails it.

Look at a king who has "ultimate power". Does it mean he is a wise king? No, not at all. "Power" ultimatly means what you can do and what you can't do. But what you want to do and what is a good idea is a totally different matter.

[suszterpatt]

Vaarsuvius got exactly what s/he asked about: Complete and total ultimate arcane power. His/her arcane power dwarfed any other spellcaster. S/he didn't ask about knowledge, much less wisdom. As Xykon also pointed out, s/he assumed that "a bunch of spells" equaled omnipotence.More importantly, he didn't achieve ultimate arcane power that lasted. I actually went back to check the archive, because I recalled him asking "how will I finally achieve complete and total ultimate arcance power?", but that "finally" isn't actually there. He achieved it, and promptly lost it due to misuse.

[Ancalagon]

I finally achieve complete and total ultimate arcance power?", but that "finally" isn't actually there. He achieved it, and promptly lost it due to misuse.

There are other meanings of finally. It does not have to mean "until the end" or "for eternity".

Vaarsuvius worked hard to achieve as much arcane power and, finally, at the then end of that struggle, achieved it.

He also did not "lose" it due to misuse, he lost it because it was not meant to last forever/until the death of the body from the beginning. Another mistake Vaasuvius made.

Getting something does not have to mean you can keep it.

[AMJ]

*blows on the smoking gun barrel* So now... matrix eh? Shame they never made a sequel. :smallbiggrin:

You know what, that would actually have been cool. I have always wanted to know more.

You know what also could be cool? If George Lucas ever makes Star Wars I, II and III, I would sooo like to see that.


:smallwink:

[suszterpatt]

Getting something does not have to mean you can keep it.It was a reasonable assumption on V's part that once he achieves it, he'll get to keep it, since all his other arcane knowledge works the same way (barring level drain and whatever other special cases).

Little did he know!

[Poppy Appletree]

You know what also could be cool? If George Lucas ever makes Star Wars I, II and III, I would sooo like to see that.

Hey, hey, hold your horses, I'm still waiting for Episode VI. I guess it has been 30 years though, so maybe he won't make one after all.

:smallwink:

[Nimrod's Son]

s/he assumed that "a bunch of spells" equaled omnipotence.
So did a lot of people, by the looks of things.


You know what also could be cool? If George Lucas ever makes Star Wars I, II and III, I would sooo like to see that.
Yeah? I have a feeling he'd make a mess of them, personally. :smallsmile:

[Marnath]

You know what, that would actually have been cool. I have always wanted to know more.

You know what also could be cool? If George Lucas ever makes Star Wars I, II and III, I would sooo like to see that.


:smallwink:

You're right, that would be epic. :smallbiggrin:
As to Chaotic Orange that someone mentioned...obviously it will be opposed by Lawful Apple.

[factotum]

Hey, hey, hold your horses, I'm still waiting for Episode VI. I guess it has been 30 years though, so maybe he won't make one after all.

:smallwink:

Nah, after this much time he'd probably end up just doing a re-hash of the first film with some teddy bears in it to help the marketing machine.

[Bongos]

Lawful Apple...
Chaotic Orange...

Neutral....Pear?

[RndmNumGen]

Chaotic Orange was a result of smashing Chaotic Evil and Blue-Orange Morality together(Basically, a set of morals that is so bizarre that it can't be comprehended on the good-evil axis). But yeah, since it seems that each fiend can only impose a single soul-splice, you would need multiple fiends of different alignments to have multiple soul splices.

[curtis]

I'd like it to turn out that it WAS an illusion - then, a little later, that the illusion that it was an illusion is actually the illusion itself - the moment that they thought they realised it was an illusion was actually when the illusion was cast.

You know what? Scrap that. It sounded better in my head.

[Laeranu]

it would be sooo funny if just as Roy was about to destroy xykon once and for all, the illision just faded away and it turned out they were still at strip 1 and they were still in the dugeon of dorikan, and the illusion was just the effect of a rune-trap.

Theyd have to basically start the adventure all over again.

And that the prequels were just memories that had been put in their minds by the rune.

[Kish]

Yes, "it was all a dream" is so original and popular.

[The MunchKING]

Come on... what "bigger" can there be? Level 14 Wizard + 3* level 2x is more than anyone can ever do.

Gods? Or heck even all those creatures with "Cast all these spells at will". As V proved, Even Epic sorcerers have to deal with spell slots they can lose. :smallamused:

[Dr.Epic]

So this is just a dream world? Like the Matrix?:smallconfused:


There is no Tarquin & Malak!

OMG!:smalleek: The OotS sequels are going to suck!

[Maximum Zersk]

Not deep enough.

[curtis]

Gods?

Are divine, aren't they?

[Kilremgor]

About V's "ultimate arcane power"... there whole debate basically rounds down to comparing those three questions:
1) Was what V gained Ultimate Arcane Power from V's perspective?
2) Was what V gained Ultimate Arcane Power from reader's perspective?
3) Was what V gained Ultimate Arcane Power as defined by some objective criteria?

Using approach 1 does lead to the conclusion that V gained the UAP. V never indicated that (s)he felt the power as incomplete, non-ultimate, or by any other criteria not satisfying the prophecy.

Using approach 2 and 3 doesn't always lead to this conclusion. Actually, by most "outside" standards (that is, from the reader aware of D&D epic magic rules, deific powers, magic rules exploits etc.) it's not even approaching "ultimate" power.

So that's why some argue in favor of power being complete while others disagree. That's just result of using different viewpoints.

Technically both statements are right, but only when non-comic viewpoints are involved.

Strictly in-comic the power is ultimate, outside of comic (within D&D rules) it isn't.

Still it makes more sense to use in-comic viewpoint.

And to sum everything up, yes, from V's viewpoint V did gain complete and total ultimate arcane power (at least there are a lot of evidence in favor of it and none to the contrary; that may, however, change), but whether to consider it "complete and total" from other viewpoints depends on the reader.