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reptilecobra13
2010-08-04, 07:12 PM
I was recently struck by the idea of running a gestalt fighter/rogue using a two-handed warhammer to sneak attack foes. Maybe it's just the sheer ridiculousness of it, but I really want to try it out. Any suggestions?

Ernir
2010-08-04, 07:30 PM
I suggest not trying it in a high-powered campaign (which tend to be rare when Gestalt is involved). The synergy between a big fat hammer and fixed precision damage is... limited. Not that Fighter//Rogue is unworkable, but you could do better. Is the "hammer to the kidneys" the real thing you are looking for, or is it using those two particular classes?

Also, obligatory question - does your group use the Tome of Battle?

Keld Denar
2010-08-04, 07:38 PM
If you use a Maul, but used it 2 handed, you can dip a level in Exotic Weapon Master (CWarrior) and pick up Uncanny Blow for 2x Str bonus to damage, instead of 1.5x. This is pretty nice.

I'd suggest taking advantage of the BAB to get Staggering Strike (CWar or CAdv) at 6. Its a really good feat, especially when combined with the higher damage you'll tend to have with a 2handed weapon. It goes a long way toward preventing foes from counterattacking you.

reptilecobra13
2010-08-04, 07:39 PM
Yes, we do use Tome of Battle. I've played all of the martial adepts, and I'm pretty set on using fighter for the bonus feats. Plus, I tend to avoid over-optimization for most of my characters, since I'm often teaching people how to play D&D. This character would be put to use in a training campaign for people new to gestalt.

Evard
2010-08-04, 07:47 PM
Normally: *sneak attacks your spleen*

Your character :*sneak attacks your brains all over the wall*

reptilecobra13
2010-08-04, 07:54 PM
Normally: *sneak attacks your spleen*

Your character :*sneak attacks your brains all over the wall*

Pretty much the idea. I may work on an alternate version of the rogue, so that he's not so much disarming traps and stealing things as he is smashing people who aren't looking at him.

To this end, I may also utilize some of the sneak attack variations from Complete Scoundrel and Complete Warrior that add other effects in exchange for dice damage, such as Concussion Attack, Impeding Attack, Hamstring, etc.

Evard
2010-08-04, 08:17 PM
I think if you leave it as armored slice n dice/skill monkey then the player will get more use out of it

herrhauptmann
2010-08-04, 08:34 PM
Normally: *sneak attacks your spleen*

Your character :*sneak attacks your brains all over the wall*

Should really continue with this.
Pick pockets becomes instead: Pick someone up by their ankles, shake vigorously, and see what falls out.

Open lock: I bust the lock off the hasp with a ball peen.

Disable trap: I find the trap mechanism and smash it until things stop moving.

:)
Knew someone who did something similar with a thief in AD&D. Had the bare minimums in all required stats, but fairly high in the non-required stats.

Aetolus
2010-08-04, 08:47 PM
When this first struck me, my mind went right to factotum warblade. Int synergy, overpowered classes, same flavor.

The more I thought about it, the more I started appreciating the fighter rogue gestalt.
Though they don't have identical stat priorities, they do have the same dump, and basically nothing is wasted to overlap except 1/4 BAB.
Rogues biggest problem is feats and hitting, fighter's biggest problem is being good at anything. This gestalt solves both of their problems, and actually has some interesting applications.

Thought it's clearly worse than factotum//warblade or beguiler//swashbuckler/prc or any of a dozen other similarly flavored pairings, it does have moxy and simplicity.

Pechvarry
2010-08-04, 08:55 PM
Ghost-faced killer!

reptilecobra13
2010-08-04, 09:11 PM
Ghost-faced killer!

An interesting choice. The frightful attack ability could be well put to use there. With the group I'll be playing with, I also like the idea of having allies set up a flank, denying my opponent dex, and then leap attack/sneak attacking for massive amounts of damage.

herrhauptmann
2010-08-04, 10:30 PM
An interesting choice. The frightful attack ability could be well put to use there. With the group I'll be playing with, I also like the idea of having allies set up a flank, denying my opponent dex, and then leap attack/sneak attacking for massive amounts of damage.

Does one of your allies have reach?
If they do, and are willing to grab vexing and adaptable flanker, you can get your flanking sneak attack even though both you and your ally are shoulder to shoulder in front of the enemy. (Can do it without reach, but reach makes everything better)

Machiavellian
2010-08-04, 10:40 PM
I suggest the SA fighter, who loses Bonus Feats for Rogue's SA. Stack SA, use a weapon that is flavorful for SA (maybe a Kukri or my Sica)

Mongoose87
2010-08-04, 10:53 PM
I suggest the SA fighter, who loses Bonus Feats for Rogue's SA. Stack SA, use a weapon that is flavorful for SA (maybe a Kukri or my Sica)

Better yet, take the Feat Rogue variant, on the opposite side!

gallagher
2010-08-04, 11:02 PM
how about instead of fighter, you run with a warblade, and ask if you can trade stone dragon for either desert wind or shadow blade?

you would then have an Int=Dex>Con>Cha=Wis=Str

reptilecobra13
2010-08-05, 11:37 AM
I'm trying to avoid using ToB right now, because some of our players are new. I don't want to overwhelm them, so our first game was single class only. They want to try gestalt, since I've told them about it, but I'm not letting anyone (including myself) use a martial adept class, at least not to start.

I love the idea of the Vexing Flanker feat, though. Using the sneak attack fighter and the feat rogue would add to the overall humor of the character as well. I want to have him be fairly charismatic too, since there's nothing like being sneak attacked by a guy with a huge hammer (or maybe a fullblade, for extra ridiculousness) and have him be incredibly polite about it.

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-05, 11:46 AM
If you use a Maul, but used it 2 handed, you can dip a level in Exotic Weapon Master (CWarrior) and pick up Uncanny Blow for 2x Str bonus to damage, instead of 1.5x. This is pretty nice.

I'd suggest taking advantage of the BAB to get Staggering Strike (CWar or CAdv) at 6. Its a really good feat, especially when combined with the higher damage you'll tend to have with a 2handed weapon. It goes a long way toward preventing foes from counterattacking you.

THIS. THIS THIS THIS. Staggering strike is the best feat for a fighter//rogue. Additionally, I would recommend sickening blow (PHB II or Complete Warrior) which lets you sicken your opponent when you hit them with a blunt instrument. It will soften up their saves for staggering strike, or whatever else you plan to hit them with.

Combining these tactics with some intimidate tech (never outnumbered skill trick, Frightening Presence) makes you a terrifying, face smashing monster.

Vexing Flanker is a pretty reliable way to get sneak attack.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-08-05, 12:02 PM
A Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer from MMIV has a natural 19-20/x4 threat/crit. A two-handed maul with uncanny blow is going to be a lot more consistent, though.

I also thought Ghost-Faced Killer would be a good fit. I'd probably go Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) with the Fighter feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) for 20 levels, along side of Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) 2/ Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) 3/ Ghost-Faced Killer 1/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Ghost-Faced Killer 9, and maybe four more Sneak Attack Fighter levels. Take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) at 3rd level, and with Staggering Strike they'll either spend their whole round getting up, or they'll have to attack from prone. Be sure to pick up Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) so you'll always have a flanking buddy.

reptilecobra13
2010-08-05, 12:06 PM
A Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer from MMIV has a natural 19-20/x4 threat/crit. A two-handed maul with uncanny blow is going to be a lot more consistent, though.

I also thought Ghost-Faced Killer would be a good fit. I'd probably go Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) with the Fighter feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) for 20 levels, along side of Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) 2/ Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) 3/ Ghost-Faced Killer 1/ Exotic Weapon Master 1/ Ghost-Faced Killer 9, and maybe four more Sneak Attack Fighter levels. Take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) at 3rd level, and with Staggering Strike they'll either spend their whole round getting up, or they'll have to attack from prone. Be sure to pick up Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) so you'll always have a flanking buddy.

Excellent. I think this is the best idea I've seen for the variant class/prestige class build, at least for this character concept. Thanks!

Greenish
2010-08-05, 12:22 PM
I also like the idea of having allies set up a flank, denying my opponent dexFlanking doesn't deny Dex to AC.

Anyway, ToB might be a better idea than gestalt in allowing new players to get some variety. It's simpler a system than, say, casting.

reptilecobra13
2010-08-05, 12:39 PM
Flanking doesn't deny Dex to AC.

Gyah, sorry, I was thinking of grapples, as I've already done this in one campaign. Our booster enlarged himself and grappled one of the BBEG's minions, turned him toward my barbarian, and let me charge with a full power attack leap attack.

Machiavellian
2010-08-05, 01:01 PM
Well, here's my suggestion for a Fighter//Rogue gestalt build:

SA Fighter 10 (gives you 5d6 SA with a full BAB and armor!)/Ghost-Faced Killer 10//Wilderness Rogue 10 (another 5d6 SA with an Animal Companion for Flanking)/Assassin/Slayer of Domiel 10 (SoD is from Exalted Deeds and is the "Good Guy" assassin)

this way, you can Sneak Attack somebody and really hurt them with the combo of SA and SudStr, then go flanking (you lose your Sudden Strike, but you can still hurt the jerk). Maybe pick up Improved Feint, or swap GFK for Scarlet Corsair (Stormwrack) to be able to feint more aggressively and you get 3d6 SA dice, not Sudden Strike, so you get that if you flank. Get you sneak attack on in 3 ways: Legit sneaking, feinting, and flanking. 3 ways of pain.

Urpriest
2010-08-05, 01:20 PM
Well, here's my suggestion for a Fighter//Rogue gestalt build:

SA Fighter 10 (gives you 5d6 SA with a full BAB and armor!)/Ghost-Faced Killer 10//Wilderness Rogue 10 (another 5d6 SA with an Animal Companion for Flanking)/Assassin/Slayer of Domiel 10 (SoD is from Exalted Deeds and is the "Good Guy" assassin)

this way, you can Sneak Attack somebody and really hurt them with the combo of SA and SudStr, then go flanking (you lose your Sudden Strike, but you can still hurt the jerk). Maybe pick up Improved Feint, or swap GFK for Scarlet Corsair (Stormwrack) to be able to feint more aggressively and you get 3d6 SA dice, not Sudden Strike, so you get that if you flank. Get you sneak attack on in 3 ways: Legit sneaking, feinting, and flanking. 3 ways of pain.

Generally in Gestalt games you can't progress the same class feature on both sides. This is vague, but it's usually assumed that you can't take sneak attack, for example, on both sides and expect it to stack.

bartman
2010-08-05, 01:30 PM
Well, here's my suggestion for a Fighter//Rogue gestalt build:

SA Fighter 10 (gives you 5d6 SA with a full BAB and armor!)/Ghost-Faced Killer 10//Wilderness Rogue 10 (another 5d6 SA with an Animal Companion for Flanking)/Assassin/Slayer of Domiel 10 (SoD is from Exalted Deeds and is the "Good Guy" assassin)

this way, you can Sneak Attack somebody and really hurt them with the combo of SA and SudStr, then go flanking (you lose your Sudden Strike, but you can still hurt the jerk). Maybe pick up Improved Feint, or swap GFK for Scarlet Corsair (Stormwrack) to be able to feint more aggressively and you get 3d6 SA dice, not Sudden Strike, so you get that if you flank. Get you sneak attack on in 3 ways: Legit sneaking, feinting, and flanking. 3 ways of pain.

One big problem i see with this build, GFK and Assassin both require you to be evil, but SoD requires you to be Lawful Good, so if you can get the allignment restrictions handwaved away, then you should be fine, but otherwise, your boned

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-05, 01:33 PM
Ghost Faced Killer is a better Assassin then Assassin anyway.

Machiavellian
2010-08-05, 01:35 PM
Ghost Faced Killer is a better Assassin then Assassin anyway.

Kind of. Sneak Attack > Sudden Strike. And if you do both, you are the perfect assassin: Spells, Stealth, and Melee all in one nasty package.

and for the GFK/SoD, I suggested Scarlet Corsair as a replacement to GFK for that.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-05, 05:46 PM
Your Will saves are going to be abysmal. Check out Complete Champion's Resolute Fighter ACF for an easy way to fix that.

It's pretty standard Fighter advice, but I think it goes doubly if you're considering GFK: Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) make the Fighter one of the best demoralizers around. They don't cost anything, which makes them look kind of silly-broken to some groups, but they fill the Fighter's dead levels, which is frankly something the Fighter needed anyway.