[3.5] Would You Play Without Base Classes?

[Fax Celestis]

Counter to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162237), and assuming that reasonable house rules that would let you qualify for prestige classes out the gate (ie: lowering of skill/BAB requirements, removal of extraneous feat prerequisites, +spellcasting classes advance a class progression (your choice) without taking that class), would you play without access to base classes?

[9mm]

Counter to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162237), and assuming that reasonable house rules that would let you qualify for prestige classes out the gate (ie: lowering of skill/BAB requirements, removal of extraneous feat prerequisites, +spellcasting classes advance a class progression (your choice) without taking that class), would you play without access to base classes?

so... if you killed all of the pre-reqs would I be willing to make a character out of just PRCs? Yes I would, because honestly many prcs are just variations on base classes with extra tricks, and since I'm one of those wierdos who don't give a toss about a prc's fluff I'd be happy to be an ordained champion/disiable of dispatar* thingy, hell it'd let me finally make that Justicar/Bloodhound I always wanted to play.

*build not chosen for power but for quick dirty example.

[Kylarra]

It'd be interesting, I'd try it once, and then probably not again.

[Hawriel]

So scrapping base classes and using PRC classes from the start. Which makes them defacto base classes. No I would not. I would rather scrap PRCs and just use base classes.

[Private-Prinny]

I have one very important question about this. What happens if I want to play a spellcaster? Would there be any way for me to get the standard progression of a base class, or would I be locked into Ur-Priest for all of my Cleric casting?

Also, what happens to ToB?

[Marnath]

You can already do this with a monstrous race with RHD. Like frost giant going straight into blackguard as per the MM Frost Giant Jarl. As for a more traditional race? Meh, sure why not, i'll try most anything once.

[ex cathedra]

It's very dependent on whether or not the house rules are actually reasonable. There are a lot of prestige classes I'd like to play from level 1 (Dervish!), and a lot that I don't really think could work in the system (Obvious examples include Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord). Assuming that there was some semblance of logical rules, I'd be inclined to try them, at least once.

[Flickerdart]

I would make a hilarious quip about class struggles, but that might not go over too well with Roland.

A PrC only game would be quite fun, since you could fit more capstones into the normal 20 levels than otherwise, opening many new possibilities.

[drengnikrafe]

As an experiment? I would try it out if I had ample time and an open minded group. As a new standard way to play for the rest of my life? No way, Josie.

[Fax Celestis]

I have one very important question about this. What happens if I want to play a spellcaster? Would there be any way for me to get the standard progression of a base class, or would I be locked into Ur-Priest for all of my Cleric casting?

+spellcasting classes advance a class progression (your choice) without taking that class


Also, what happens to ToB?
ToB PrCs don't need base classes, for the most part, to function if you remove the maneuver prereqs.

[Zaydos]

That sounds like it would be really interesting.

[Siosilvar]

I swear I've seen a thread similar to this before, probably on Myth-Weavers.

I'd certainly play if it were done right. JPM/Iot7V anyone?

[Xefas]

Sure, why not? Does the world care if my tough, world-weary war hero who is called to sacrifice his personal happiness for the betterment of society when all he wants is to settle down and have a family is mechanically the Marshal base class or mechanically the Legendary Commander prestige class? Probably not.

[FMArthur]

To be quite honest I think it might prove superior to vanilla D&D. Prestige classes are usually just more specialized versions of base classes, really. So instead of building a guy who struggles for ages to become, say, a Dragon Disciple, which is the defining feature of his build... you could just make a Dragon Disciple. Really quite nice.

But! I think most abilities are balanced around the entry points in terms of HD and enemy progression. Why not just start at 6th level and houserule all PrCs to have ECL 5 as an alternate requirement method? This would be mostly the same but cause less havoc with character balance. I can't think of any late-qualification PrCs that would be especially unbalancing if they started at 6th.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

PrC balance is partly based off of prerequisites, so if you removed the prerequisites without...

Wait, did I just say "PrC balance?"

Go right ahead, Fax.

[DragoonWraith]

I think it would be near impossible to run sensibly, but assuming it had been made to work - yes, definitely. Prestige Classes, generally speaking, are more interesting than Base Classes, so I'm all for that.

[Snake-Aes]

Conceptually it's impossible as you basically have to turn prestiges into bases.

I'd rather play with generic classes and allow class features from prestiges to be used.

[Starbuck_II]

Wait, can we do Beholder Mage or are race requirements still used?

[FMArthur]

Wait, can we do Beholder Mage or are race requirements still used?

You can do a Beholder Mage build any time you like, with or without the rule. You should probably assume that if your DM bodily throws you out of his home when you do it normally, he isn't going to have a new and different reaction with this variant. :smallwink:

[Tequila Sunrise]

Sure, sounds like fun!

[Freylorn]

Why not? There'd have to be some pretty heavy house-ruling to get PrCs to function as base classes anyways, so I'm sure balancing would occur at the same time.

Worst case scenario, it's an interesting one-shot experiment.

[grarrrg]

I think it'd be kinda fun (maybe once, or the occasional one-shot).

An idea for the Prereqs:
Waive all prereqs (except racial/alignment) on the condition that on level-up (or creation) all abilitites of any kind that 'would' be needed as prereqs must be chosen, if possible. (obviously some fudging would be needed here and there)

Example: To be a Blackguard, once must be Evil, have +6bab, Hide 5, Knowledge(rel) 2, and the feats Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, and have contacted an Evil Outsider.

So, if you were starting as a first level Blackguard you would:
MUST be Evil.
Entry bab can usually be ignored, unless it is >10, or in odd cases like the War Hulk, as (most) every character 'can' have 10bab by/at level 20.
At level 1 4 points must be put into Hide and 2 points into Know(rel) BEFORE any other skills (assuming you don't have a SEVERE INT penalty that is...)
Power attack would have to be chosen as the level 1 feat (racial bonus feats would need to be spent towards the other two if possible).
And at the first reasonable opportunity, an Evil Outsider would need to be contacted.

[Soren Hero]

like many before me, it sounds like fun...

maybe instead of scrapping all base classes...mandate that the player has to take the first level of a base class to qualify for prestige classes...for example...lvl 1 wizard would qualify for all arcane magic based casting classes, etc

[RickGriffin]

Only if I can play a template without a base race.

EDIT: Actually that would be fun if only to see how it worked. And if some of the worse prestige classes actually made sense when played from level 1.

[Zeful]

Not at all. The concept of the game doesn't appeal to me on the most basic of levels.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Nope - it might work for some people, but I'd not like it.

Seems to me that PrCs are all about increased specialisation and narrowing of focus. Me, I find the core base classes over specialised and too narrow of focus. I like broad classes with lots of customisation.

[Vortling]

I tried doing this once as a one shot. It worked alright but I had to make a lot of on the fly rulings due to certain PrC abilities. The chameleon's double caster level per level comes to mind.

Otherwise it was fun.

[Zen Master]

I would much rather play base classes without prestige classes than vice versa.

[Aotrs Commander]

In order for this to work, you'd need to do some serious ground work.

How does advancing spellcasting work? Do you, like select which arcane class (or divine class or psionic class etc ect) your levels will be advancing? Ditto for manouver refresh...also not to mention the Tob PrC, which have this odd idea of not giving +1 class adept initator level, but instead hand out manouvers and stances in ines and twos render ToB useless. Notice how many ToB PrC don't get any manouvers at level one? And most of them get a handful over ten levels. So in order for ToB to work, you need to modify the PrC heavily.

Without modifying the PrC into basically a new class in many cases - at which point you're just changed the base classes - a lot of character classes lose effectiveness. (How many PrC offer trapsense? I can't think of any off hand, though that means little.)

I'd say, without significant effort on the part of the DM to make new base classes from the PrC, that no, I wouldn't.

[Poil]

So it would let me play a Mystic Theurge from level 1? It would be fun to play at least once though.

[hamishspence]

I wonder how D&D would play if it were completely classless? Everything that was in a PRC or class, becomes an option that can be taken by everyone- as long as (in a lot of cases) they take stuff before that- power trees.

[The Rose Dragon]

I wonder how D&D would play if it were completely classless? Everything that was in a PRC or class, becomes an option that can be taken by everyone- as long as (in a lot of cases) they take stuff before that- power trees.

I think someone tried that before. An interesting idea, but ultimately, there are much better systems than D&D for that. No need to force D&D into being something it wasn't designed to be.

[Morph Bark]

I wonder how D&D would play if it were completely classless? Everything that was in a PRC or class, becomes an option that can be taken by everyone- as long as (in a lot of cases) they take stuff before that- power trees.

Turn all the abilities into feats for use with the generic classes?

If prerequisites would be removed entirely... ouch. Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 1/Thrallherd 2 (as Ardent)/Incantatrix X/Psychic Theurge(?) 7... with Practiced Manifester and DMM: Persist? Yeah, the prerequisites would need to be controlled bigtime.

So lower BAB requirements by 5, spell level requirements by 2 (0 = no need to cast spells, so you can start with those), skill requirements lowered by 5, then you'd got something. Something weird and overpowered likely, but for one campaign it would be fun.

[Aran Banks]

sublime chord, Iot7V, and ridiculous things...

the PrC's would definitely need to be balanced to each other so that the game doesn't go out of hand. An acolyte of the skin playing with a thrallherd is a BIG problem.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd try it...once.

Then we'd all go back to playing the normal way, and have a good laugh about that time we made horribly broken characters.

It'd be like the time a guy thought an epic campaign meant starting like normal, but adding a hundred to each stat. Amusing, and with interesting repercussions, but you wouldn't want to actually PLAY that way.

[Nero24200]

Would this just be a step back to 1st or 2nd edition where you had to meet certain prerequistes to take levels in certain classes, even at level 1?

I might play, but it would have to "make sense" so to speak. A wizard cannot cast spells with an intellgence score of 10 or less, so having a "Intellgence:11" prerequiste for wizards makes sense. If none of the prerequisites where silly I could see it being interesting.

[hamishspence]

Turn all the abilities into feats for use with the generic classes?

If prerequisites would be removed entirely... ouch. Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 1/Thrallherd 2 (as Ardent)/Incantatrix X/Psychic Theurge(?) 7... with Practiced Manifester and DMM: Persist? Yeah, the prerequisites would need to be controlled bigtime.

So lower BAB requirements by 5, spell level requirements by 2 (0 = no need to cast spells, so you can start with those), skill requirements lowered by 5, then you'd got something. Something weird and overpowered likely, but for one campaign it would be fun.

I was thinking more "everyone is something like those generic classes in Unearthed Arcana, and nearly everything in the game is broken down into features that can be obtained."

Maybe a bit like the Dabblemaster homebrew class, but for everything, not just magic.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8919949

Animal Companion would be gotten via a feat (and maybe nerfed a bit) for example. Or Smite X alignment. Or various others.

[ScionoftheVoid]

If the rules were reasonable? Sure, I'd try it occasionally. I tend to find prestige classes much more interesting than base classes, so this would definitely be something to do at least once.

[hamishspence]

Given that some classes can be turned into prestige classes (for example, bard and paladin) maybe turning prestige classes into classes would make sense.

[Amphetryon]

I'd certainly try it at least once. I've tried to work up a couple characters in the past that had only Racial Paragon and Bloodline levels aside from Prestige Classes, anyway.

[Morph Bark]

I was thinking more "everyone is something like those generic classes in Unearthed Arcana, and nearly everything in the game is broken down into features that can be obtained."

Maybe a bit like the Dabblemaster homebrew class, but for everything, not just magic.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8919949

Animal Companion would be gotten via a feat (and maybe nerfed a bit) for example. Or Smite X alignment. Or various others.

...heh. Guess more people got a look at my work than I thought. :smallredface:

As for those generic classes in UA, in place of a feat they can take an ability, right? Sneak Attack, Evasion and the like are among those, with level requirements for each. It would be easy enough to make something of that sort for more things.

[Xallace]

The question is essentially if we would play with a larger number of more specialized base classes, right? Well, sure. That's as valid a design goal as a handful of generalized classes.

Now, specifically on PrCS, I'd want the following:


If you can take your first level of the class at level 6, then it is available from the start.
Classes that provide 9th-level casting in 10 levels or use double class level for CL are outright gone.
Classes that absolutely require a certain feat or class feature to function correctly gain that feat or class feature.
Casting PrCs allow you to choose which base casting class' spells to progress, within the limits of the class (if it requires divine casting as a prereq, you can only advance divine casting; If it requires spontaneous casting, you can only advance spontaneous casting, etc.).


That's all I can think of. But yeah, I'd totally give it a shot.

[Noble Savant]

Frankly? I think it would be a very interesting way to play. Characters would probably have a lot more "special" abilities as opposed to generic ones from very early on. Prestige classes tend to be more specialized yes, but there are plenty of prestige classes that simply add options. Chameleon, Master of Masks, etc.

I support this wholeheartedly.

[Kurald Galain]

would you play without access to base classes?

Sure. But it does strike me that this complicates things for no obvious benefit.

[Amphetryon]

The question is essentially if we would play with a larger number of more specialized base classes, right? Well, sure. That's as valid a design goal as a handful of generalized classes.

Now, specifically on PrCS, I'd want the following:


If you can take your first level of the class at level 6, then it is available from the start.
Classes that provide 9th-level casting in 10 levels or use double class level for CL are outright gone.
Classes that absolutely require a certain feat or class feature to function correctly gain that feat or class feature.
Casting PrCs allow you to choose which base casting class' spells to progress, within the limits of the class (if it requires divine casting as a prereq, you can only advance divine casting; If it requires spontaneous casting, you can only advance spontaneous casting, etc.).


That's all I can think of. But yeah, I'd totally give it a shot.:smallcool: I'd play the hell outta that campaign.

[Ormagoden]

Who's running the game and when does it start?

[Powerfamiliar]

If someone did all the work of making the classes playable then sure, but it seems like an awful lot of work to do for not much gain. Even if the work was done and it was good, I doubt I would play this way most of the time.

[Morph Bark]

The question is essentially if we would play with a larger number of more specialized base classes, right? Well, sure. That's as valid a design goal as a handful of generalized classes.

Now, specifically on PrCS, I'd want the following:


If you can take your first level of the class at level 6, then it is available from the start.
Classes that provide 9th-level casting in 10 levels or use double class level for CL are outright gone.
Classes that absolutely require a certain feat or class feature to function correctly gain that feat or class feature.
Casting PrCs allow you to choose which base casting class' spells to progress, within the limits of the class (if it requires divine casting as a prereq, you can only advance divine casting; If it requires spontaneous casting, you can only advance spontaneous casting, etc.).


That's all I can think of. But yeah, I'd totally give it a shot.

I call dibs on the meatshield if I can exchange the 5 levels previous to the start to Survivor levels. :smallamused:

[RickGriffin]

Well okay, say there were these rule fixings:


Any class with +1 casting automatically advances casting as a base class, even if the character did not previously have it.
Any class with martial maneuvers acts similar to the above instead, with +1 initiator levels as a base class, even if the character did not previously have it.
Any class that REQUIRES an ability or feat to function at all, which it does not provide, instead gets that ability or feat at first level (at its lowest available function: if it requires sneak attack you gain sneak attack +1d6 only) and this does not stack if you already have the ability.
The only actual prerequisites left would be race, alignment and possibly religion/entrance tests, if anyone actually pays attention to that.


Does that cover most everything?

[TooManyBadgers]

If I understand the intent here, I think I like the idea quite a bit.

One thing that bugs me about the base D&D system is the inconsistency between specific and general archetypes.

The Fighter and Sorcerer, for instance, are very similar to Generic classes. They seem to be designed to be used to represent generic concepts of weapon users and magic users.

Classes like the Bard or Paladin, on the other hand, seem very specific in their niches. Their fluff is presented as if portraying a single, specific character, rather than the spectra of archetypes that seem to be encompassed by the Fighter or Sorcerer.

Prestige Classes seem to generally fall into the latter, more specific design. I'm not sure I'd agree that it's a better design, or that it would be better balanced in any way, but the scope of PrC's seems more uniform than that of base classes, and that's something I o appreciate.

[Yukitsu]

I once played a game using nothing but unearthed arcana (big book o' variants) and urban arcana (big book o' urban fantasy variants), using generics and unearthed arcana's "epic casting from level 1" system. It turned out to be pretty fun, despite my complete lack of class features.

[Endarire]

Beholder Mage/Incantatrix/Jade Phoenix Mage/Ur Priest/Contemplative/Ruby Knight Vindicator, anyone?

[Amphetryon]

Beholder Mage/Incantatrix/Jade Phoenix Mage/Ur Priest/Contemplative/Ruby Knight Vindicator, anyone?

needs moar Dweomerkeeper

[ScionoftheVoid]

Beholder Mage/Incantatrix/Jade Phoenix Mage/Ur Priest/Contemplative/Ruby Knight Vindicator, anyone?


needs moar Dweomerkeeper

You forgot Tainted Scholar, Cancer Mage and Planar Shepherd.

[Chambers]

Sounds like fun. Slight summarization of my comment from the other thread - playing on the customization of 3.5, when done in a balanced way, should lead to more enjoyment. If everyone's on board with the idea and they like to customize their characters.

This idea was mentioned somewhat in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158973).

[Renchard]

If you can take your first level of the class at level 7, then it is available from the start.
Classes that provide 9th-level casting in 10 levels or use double class level for CL are outright gone.
Classes that absolutely require a certain feat or class feature to function correctly gain that feat or class feature.
Casting PrCs allow you to choose which base casting class' spells to progress, within the limits of the class (if it requires divine casting as a prereq, you can only advance divine casting; If it requires spontaneous casting, you can only advance spontaneous casting, etc.).




Well okay, say there were these rule fixings:
Any class with +1 casting automatically advances casting as a base class, even if the character did not previously have it.
Any class with martial maneuvers acts similar to the above instead, with +1 initiator levels as a base class, even if the character did not previously have it.
Any class that REQUIRES an ability or feat to function at all, which it does not provide, instead gets that ability or feat at first level (at its lowest available function: if it requires sneak attack you gain sneak attack +1d6 only) and this does not stack if you already have the ability.
The only actual prerequisites left would be race, alignment and possibly religion/entrance tests, if anyone actually pays attention to that.


I'm really thinking about using this concept in an E10 game, with the above rules. Also, I'm going to add the following rules:

1) No double advancement classes, period. (No Mystic Theurge, Abjurant Champion, Arcane Trickster, JPM, etc.)
2) No class with personalized casting that gains more than 5th level casting. (Chameleon is out, Suel Arcanamach is OK.)
3) Any class selected must be verified by the DM, and changes to certain abilities may be made before play.

Any classes that don't fit all the above criteria that should be left out?

[DaragosKitsune]

1) No double advancement classes, period. (No Mystic Theurge, Abjurant Champion, Arcane Trickster, JPM, etc.)


If you want to prevent a huge influx of overpowered dual advancement classes, just say they have to alternate their progression. Make them do the FF Red Mage Route: I can heal, blast, and buff, just not as well as someone who only does one.

[Amphetryon]

I'm really thinking about using this concept in an E10 game, with the above rules. Also, I'm going to add the following rules:

1) No double advancement classes, period. (No Mystic Theurge, Abjurant Champion, Arcane Trickster, JPM, etc.)
2) No class with personalized casting that gains more than 5th level casting. (Chameleon is out, Suel Arcanamach is OK.)
3) Any class selected must be verified by the DM, and changes to certain abilities may be made before play.

Any classes that don't fit all the above criteria that should be left out?

How do you feel about the Nightsong and Shadowbane classes from CAd?

EDIT: Addendum question: How would weapon and armor proficiencies be dealt with? Most PrCs don't grant them....

[Renchard]

How do you feel about the Nightsong and Shadowbane classes from CAd?

EDIT: Addendum question: How would weapon and armor proficiencies be dealt with? Most PrCs don't grant them....

I'd allow both Nightsong classes and both Shadowbane classes.

I'd deal with weapon and armor proficiencies on a case by case basis. Most classes would get medium armor and simple weapons. Caster classes would probably be light armor and simple weapons. Classes with Full BAB would probably get martial weapons. Probably no heavy armor proficiencies unless it's integral to the class concept.

[DragoonWraith]

If you want to prevent a huge influx of overpowered dual advancement classes, just say they have to alternate their progression. Make them do the FF Red Mage Route: I can heal, blast, and buff, just not as well as someone who only does one.
I think it would be better to use, say, the Bard's spell progression, but give separate Spells Known progressions, one from the Cleric list and the other from the Sor/Wiz list. Say, something like this, which I just wrote up now for this, heh.

[Xallace]

I'd deal with weapon and armor proficiencies on a case by case basis. Most classes would get medium armor and simple weapons. Caster classes would probably be light armor and simple weapons. Classes with Full BAB would probably get martial weapons. Probably no heavy armor proficiencies unless it's integral to the class concept.

I would suggest allowing the Weapon Groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) variant from Unearthed Arcana. Let everyone pick 2-3 groups they're proficient in, regardless of class. Doesn't require any additional work.

This would be in addition to the "Classes get essential pre-reqs" idea. So a class like, say, the Exotic Weapons Master would get free Exotic Weapons Proficiency over and above the 2-3 granted to all characters.

[Zaydos]

More and more I really want to see this done, and play in it. It would be rather awesome.

[Renchard]

I would suggest allowing the Weapon Groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) variant from Unearthed Arcana. Let everyone pick 2-3 groups they're proficient in, regardless of class. Doesn't require any additional work.

This would be in addition to the "Classes get essential pre-reqs" idea. So a class like, say, the Exotic Weapons Master would get free Exotic Weapons Proficiency over and above the 2-3 granted to all characters.

That's not a bad idea, I may have to yoink that.

[Renchard]

If you want to prevent a huge influx of overpowered dual advancement classes, just say they have to alternate their progression. Make them do the FF Red Mage Route: I can heal, blast, and buff, just not as well as someone who only does one.

That's not a bad idea, although I think I might make it 7/7 rather than 5/5. After all, that would equal what a Wiz3/Cle3/MT4 would be at anyway.

Something like:

1st: Advance 1st progression (1/0)
2nd: Advance 2nd progression (1/1)
3rd: Advance both (2/2)
4th: Advance both (3/3)
5th: Advance 1st (4/3)
6th: Advance 2nd (4/4)
7th: Advance both (5/5)
8th Advance 1st progression (6/5)
9th Advance 2nd progression (6/6)
10th Advance both (7/7)

With this progression, they're never ahead on progression, but they're never behind by more than 1 spell level except at 9th, and the 10th level fixes that.

[Yahzi]

would you play without access to base classes?
I'd play in any world a DM made up. In fact, the more made up the better, because it's all about the effort.

The real question should be, why would you play in a completely stock by-the-book world?

[Siosilvar]

I'd play in any world a DM made up. In fact, the more made up the better, because it's all about the effort.

The real question should be, why would you play in a completely stock by-the-book world?

Arenas. Simplicity. Lack of any ideas to make it better. Lack of the skill necessary to make it better.

[DragoonWraith]

Lack of time to make it better. Enjoyment of the standard setting(s). Etc.

[Renchard]

Start of a basic rules setup for this, some of my own house rules are mixed in.


1) Maximum level is 10. After level 10, you earn a new feat every 5000 XP. There are new feats that allow you access to higher level spells and spell slots. Additionally, many feats with high level requirements have their requirements lowered to be able to be earned at level 10+.

2) All base classes (classes that progress from 1-20) are banned.

3) Prestige classes are available, and have their requirements removed/lowered, so they can be taken at level 1.

4) No more than 2 classes can be taken.

5) All PrCs that could not be taken till a level higher than 7 are disallowed. (Skill requirements of 10 ranks or more, BAB +7 or more, spell level access of 4th or higher).

6) Any class that provides access to spell levels higher than 5th are disallowed. (Such as Apostle of Peace, Divine Crusader, Ur-Priest).

7) If a class requires a certain feat or class feature to make use of its own class features, that class feature is granted.

8) A class that advances divine spellcasting can advance casting as a cleric, favored soul, druid, spirit shaman, or archivist (player's choice).

9) A class that advances arcane spellcasting can advance casting as a wizard, sorcerer, warlock, wu jen, beguiler, dread necromancer, or warmage. (player's choice).

10) If the PrC required a certain type of spellcasting to qualify, only a spellcasting type that qualified for the PrC may be advanced. (e.g. spontaneous, prepared, etc.)

11) All classes with full BAB also grant +1 initiator level (from Tome of Battle).

12) Racial and alignment requirements of the PrC are still required.

13) Classes which advance two spellcasting classes simultaneously are allowed, but have their spellcasting progression modified to be advanced to grant 7/10 progression in both classes.

14) Other classes which advance two discrete subsystems or roles (such as Abjurant Champion, Arcane Trickster, Jade Phoenix Mage, etc.) will also be modified at DM's discretion.

15) Since PrCs rarely grant weapon and armor proficiencies, all classes with 1/2 BAB gain access to one weapon group (from Unearthed Arcana), classes with 3/4 BAB gain two groups, and classes with full BAB gain three. In the case of multiclassing, the number of weapon groups gained is equal to the amount for the class with the higher BAB, with the difference obtained when the 1st level of the higher level BAB obtained is taken. (A class with 1/2 BAB takes a level of a class wth full BAB, and gains two additional weapon groups, so they have three total.) Armor proficiences will be determined by the class type, with light armor for arcane casters and rogueish types, and medium armor for warriors and divine casters. Heavy armor will typically only be for classes with a strong inclination to wear it.

16) Any class selected must be verified by the DM, and changes to certain abilities may be made before play.