Horror Fans UNITE! Jeepers Creepers as a Class

[Nanoblack]

I was flipping through my heroes of horror book the other night when I came across the cadaver golem and thought to myself: "Hey thats kinda like what the monster from Jeepers Creepers does!" My problem is... I haven't the slightest idea where to start.

I would like to recruit any homebrewers from around the forums to assist me in creating a 20 level creature class for this thing. I would expect it to have a fear aura or even frightful presence as well as bonuses to damage and an ability to track targets he has made fearful before.

Creeper
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

2nd|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

3rd|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

4th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

5th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

6th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

7th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

8th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

9th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

10th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

11th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

12th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

13th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

14th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

15th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

16th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

17th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

18th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

19th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability

20th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Class Ability[/table]

[Nanoblack]

Reserved for Whatever...

[Lord Loss]

Color me interested. I haven't seen that movie myslef, but I've heard lots about it from friends. Also we could make a Base Class called ''Slasher'' which binds together all the staples of horror movie monsters into one neat n' easy class.

[Nanoblack]

Well this particular monster hunts people that possesses parts that he "likes" and gains those parts after consuming them. The cadaver golem does something similar; it tears parts from recently deceased bodies and attaches them to itself to gain different abilities like.

Ex: Take a dead rogues hands to move skill ranks over to disable device, or the heart of a barbarian to gain rage 1/day

Sadly though I really can't think of a way to balance this without making it uber-weak...

[Eldan]

Perhaps similar to the Shapeshift druid from PHBII? Make the corpse collecting almost pure fluff, but allow a variety of forms.

[Nanoblack]

The shapeshift druid doesn't really capture the flavor of the Creeper. The three base forms really aren't enough truly capture its flexibility. I can't see it gaining any spellcasting, but everything else is fair game.

[Hyooz]

The shapeshift druid doesn't really capture the flavor of the Creeper. The three base forms really aren't enough truly capture its flexibility. I can't see it gaining any spellcasting, but everything else is fair game.

This is going to be nearly impossible to balance, if that's the kind of thing you're after. A DM with this class in his campaign will need to be very careful to not throw any monsters at the party with abilities that are too good, but toss them enough stuff they go up in power with the rest of the party.

[Nanoblack]

Well I was thinking that it would get ability progression based on a sort of paladin casting chart. Starting with (Ex), then (Sp), and finally (Su). Also limiting the ability steal to certain types should help a bit. Maybe after the framework has been worked out we can add in a level formula for how powerful the abilities it can steal are.

Ex: Can't be from a creature with hit dice more than half your level or even reduce variable effects based on level...

[Hyooz]

You're still going to run into the problem of particularly powerful natural attacks/limbs (say, wings for flight) and abilities that are really awesome even on low level creatures. Blink Dogs can Dimension Door every round as a free action, for example. Chokers get Quickness.

You'll still run into the problem of the class's strength being entirely reliant upon what the DM throws at you.

[Nanoblack]

Well perhaps we could tackle this as if its not meant for a player, at least at first. All issues can be handled later, right now we just need the basics.

[DracoDei]

I am fairly sure I have seen some sort of monster or class with abilities similar to this... let me check one place... if it isn't there, I don't know where it would be.

EDIT: GOT IT! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3315739&postcount=11

[imp_fireball]

I'd just make this a monster, and if you still want a class refer to the 'improving monsters as monster classes, monsters without LA, etc.' thread.

As for making this a PC class useable by any creature, just refer to the blue mage.

Or make this a template (again, refer to monster class thread) if you want it to apply to any creature.

[Owrtho]

Well, a few things could be done to help balance. First, limit the max number of parts at any time, likely by level (such as twice level).

Then, limit the abilities gained (at least at lower level). Something like you only gain 1 use of supernatural and spell like abilities per day per part. Would help to reduce the power level some, and the limit may increase at higher levels.

Might also do something about movement modes, but not sure what off hand. Perhaps make them work similar to the Raptorian where they can't use the full effect of the movements at low levels, or just limit their ability to travel with them per day.

Owrtho

[Nanoblack]

After doing a bit of thinking on the matter... would it be possible to work out a sort of pseudo-incarnum system with this? At the very least we could include a loose "chakra" system so at least we could limit the locations it could steal parts for...

[drack]

well I don't know the incarnate system, and I've never seen the movie (though I may now) anyways I am intrigued so I'll help. first I would limit the abilities possible to steal to something like 5 and than at 10th level 10 than 20th level 15 ect. (preferably limit it a tad more than that because those numbers are off the top of my head.) than limit the choices such as only DR, a few extra HP, a bonus on attack or damage, flight, speed, and breath weapons/burning blood type attacks. also make them take up body part slots, such as one type of blood, wings, legs, skin/scales, ect. that is at least somewhere to start, but I may also attach that since these parts are from dead guys some slots may be more plentiful, but rot in a week, such as arms.

Also note that it doesn't need too much advancement in this ability, because as it gains levels it will be killing bigger things, and able to get better stuff.
well I hope this helped :smallsmile:

[Nanoblack]

Well first things first... should it have full BAB? Also what kind of saves should it have... I'm thinking good fortitude and reflex.

[Thinker]

I have some of my own advice to offer for this. Differentiate between the different types of bonuses and abilities that the creature can gain. Limit how long these abilities and bonuses last. Set level requirements before it can obtain a type of ability.

A rough mockup might look something like this:

Types of abilities:

Skills - level 1
HP - level 1
Weapon Proficiency - level 2
Natural Attacks - level 2
Feats - level 3
Movement Speed - level 4
BAB - level 4
Movement Mode - level 5
Saves - level 5
Extraordinary Abilities - level 8
Supernatural Abilities - level 12
Spell-like Abilities - level 16

Restrict uses per "absorption". Weaker abilities may be used more often.
Absorption (Su): Beginning at level 1, the stalker may take a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to study a creature within 30 feet.. Roll a Knowledge check with a DC equal to 15 plus the target's CR. If successful, the stalker may gain on ability from the creature that you have access to. This ability may be used on dead creatures. A stalker may not absorb abilities from a creature with more than 3 + character level HD than the stalker.
Gains Track as a bonus feat at level 1.
The ability must be used within 1 round per class level.

After 4 levels with access to an ability this improves to 1 minute per class level.
After 8 levels with access to an ability this improves to 10 minutes per class level.
After 12 levels with access to an ability this improves to 1 hour per class level.
After 16 levels with access to an ability this improves to 24 hours per class level.



This isn't very well balanced, but I hope it provides some guidance for a way to go that wouldn't be completely game breaking. It still relies on the GM to watch what he throws at the party.

[Nanoblack]

Perhaps we could even have stolen parts take up item slots? Or like I mentioned earlier, we could steal some ideas from Magic of Incarnum and more or less steal the chakra map (Both ideas are very similar).

[drack]

A rough mockup might look something like this:
[LIST]
Types of abilities:
[list]
Skills - level 1
HP - level 1
Weapon Proficiency - level 2
Natural Attacks - level 2
Feats - level 3
Movement Speed - level 4
BAB - level 4
Movement Mode - level 5
Saves - level 5
Extraordinary Abilities - level 8
Supernatural Abilities - level 12
Spell-like Abilities - level 16


I like that you are putting some numbers to this but this way doesn't work all too well. the problem is that first of all some abilities isolated are the full creature's strength like the blink dog mentioned above. this is why I chose individual abilities like DR, speed, breath weapon, flight, ect.
also though this works as a vary rough guideline I'm afraid that a spell like ability to cast cure minor wounds once a day isn't quite as good as +500 hp, or even +4on a hide save. also if multiclased 3 levels of this with any undead handling and we get undead mastery, or any HUGE feat this character skyrockets quite a a few levels power-wise. (wow I guess I actually thought my suggestion above through I'm surprised at myself :smallbiggrin:. also the required use of the ability within a small time frame though useful could make this class a tad unstable. Finally the stealing abilities from live opponents, or random passersby appears a tad cheep, especially if you happen to roll with odd company. so I would stick with you can take one thing from each corpse assuming that they haven't decomposed and gain an ability only being ably to have so many at a time.

side-note: I would go for a mid-ranged base attack (like a cleric) and possibly saves as well (skew them a bit to fit the class such as will switched with reflex) because though it appears to be a combat based class it has it's extra combat made up in abilities. also i'd go with d12 HD

Edit: review my prior statement, I'm sticking with it :smallwink:

[Thinker]

I like that you are putting some numbers to this but this way doesn't work all too well. the problem is that first of all some abilities isolated are the full creature's strength like the blink dog mentioned above. this is why I chose individual abilities like DR, speed, breath weapon, flight, ect.
The numbers are obviously not set in stone and are only an estimate of where they would fit as far as power goes. Spell-like abilities are some of the best abilities in the game, hence them not being attainable until level 16 (which may actually be too late).


also though this works as a vary rough guideline I'm afraid that a spell like ability to cast cure minor wounds once a day isn't quite as good as +500 hp, or even +4on a hide save.
It's almost like a creature that could be stolen from that has both +500 HP and also cure minor wounds is a ridiculous concept to begin with. I wouldn't recommend any of these things be cumulative (i.e., if you steal +8 HP and then later steal +12 HP, you only get +12 and not +20). There should also be caps on how much HP can be stolen.


also if multiclased 3 levels of this with any undead handling and we get undead mastery, or any HUGE feat this character skyrockets quite a a few levels power-wise.
You really don't get undead mastery since you would have to steal from creatures fairly frequently. If you had bothered to read on to other parts of my post, you would see that it would be level 7 before the character could even partake of minutes per level of a stolen feat.


(wow I guess I actually thought my suggestion above through I'm surprised at myself :smallbiggrin:. also the required use of the ability within a small time frame though useful could make this class a tad unstable.
It's almost like you wouldn't want a player to simply spend a month tracking down a bunch of abilities to keep forever. It does lead to some weakness, but at worst he can borrow abilities from his teammates if he has to. There should also be other abilities that give some level of viability. I was not creating a complete class, just providing a framework available for others to potentially utilize.


Finally the stealing abilities from live opponents, or random passersby appears a tad cheep, especially if you happen to roll with odd company. so I would stick with you can take one thing from each corpse assuming that they haven't decomposed and gain an ability only being ably to have so many at a time.
Who cares if he steals from random people? Most random people suck. Even if he keeps odd company, he won't be able to borrow their better stuff until later in his career, but lets him remain viable in the short term. Having a duration on abilities obviates the need on a cap of abilities. It also makes it so that a DM's mistake isn't unfixable.


side-note: I would go for a mid-ranged base attack (like a cleric) and possibly saves as well (skew them a bit to fit the class such as will switched with reflex) because though it appears to be a combat based class it has it's extra combat made up in abilities. also i'd go with d12 HD
I think full BAB would be better under my framework, but mid could work. d12 HP seems unnecessary; d8 should work. I am undecided on saves.

As for your posting, would you please work to provide a better sentence structure, punctuation, and capitalization? Your current post was a little bit difficult to navigate.

[Owrtho]

I still feel my suggestions could be valid. There is no reason they couldn't take the ability of a blink dog, but in my suggestion they would only have one or two uses a day rather than as often as they want at will. The idea of parts only lasting so long doesn't really work, but I could see an ability that would grant 1 extra use from an ability at the cost of overtaxing the part and destroying it.
There would be some differences though for things like bonus HP.

Owrtho

[Nanoblack]

I still feel my suggestions could be valid. There is no reason they couldn't take the ability of a blink dog, but in my suggestion they would only have one or two uses a day rather than as often as they want at will. The idea of parts only lasting so long doesn't really work, but I could see an ability that would grant 1 extra use from an ability at the cost of overtaxing the part and destroying it.
There would be some differences though for things like bonus HP.

Owrtho

Sort of like the Pathfinder artificer? So then it could use each ability "safely" a certain number of times per day (based on what type of ability it is) and each use afterwards requires some kind of check (thinking Con, Fortitude, or level) to stabilize it before the part expires.




It's almost like you wouldn't want a player to simply spend a month tracking down a bunch of abilities to keep forever. It does lead to some weakness, but at worst he can borrow abilities from his teammates if he has to. There should also be other abilities that give some level of viability. I was not creating a complete class, just providing a framework available for others to potentially utilize.


That is indeed at worst considering the class is based upon attaching the anatomy of others to itself in order to gain their abilities.

[Owrtho]

That is indeed at worst considering the class is based upon attaching the anatomy of others to itself in order to gain their abilities.

Gives a whole new meaning to asking your partner to 'lend a hand'...

Owrtho

[Thinker]

That is indeed at worst considering the class is based upon attaching the anatomy of others to itself in order to gain their abilities.

If you want a playable class, you have to make it so that it can play well with others. If you just want a monster, it doesn't matter how well it performs except when filling it's intended function. The mechanics don't have to require the body part to be actually removed from the target.

[Owrtho]

I think part of the point is that the class has to remove the body parts and physically attach them though. And it can play nice so far as only taking parts from enemies they kill (or if feeling rather mean, just maim).

Also, come to think of it, if it actually has to attach them in place of its own parts, the class would also likely bee good at surgery to an extent likely making it good at the heal skill and allowing it to act as a non magical or slightly magical medic.

Owrtho

[drack]

Sorry for my lack of celerity in my articles. Truth is I am not to good at proofreading, and don't like doing the little I can. :smallannoyed:

First off I apologies that we appear to be butting heads here. If you are so set in stone about your method ok. The only problem is that I personally prefer that after the character spends quite a while tracking down a black dragon (just an example) I believe that they are deserving of some fly speed if they so desire. Also note that I am not saying that they should customize the parts form all spices making themselves s super-monster. I was suggesting that they keep some abilities permanently, and others decay.

Question: I am not sure I understand your idea as completely, but in your case in where they preform a knowledge check each time, is that in addition to stealing the limb/organ/other body part, or is it replacing the whole part about requiring you have the deceased present for the operation, because I may be wrong but this doesn't seem the type of character to be toting around a sack of corpses in case it requires the use of its ability in combat. Trust me I'm just about to find out how difficult such characters are to play. If not than this ability becomes more minor and is not the center of the character. If that is the case I agree that it should be full BAB, but by the time I got to the d8 HD I was starting to think you just like butting heads with me. I was simply suggesting longer term use for some body parts.


It's almost like a creature that could be stolen from that has both +500 HP and also cure minor wounds is a ridiculous concept to begin with. I wouldn't recommend any of these things be cumulative (i.e., if you steal +8 HP and then later steal +12 HP, you only get +12 and not +20). There should also be caps on how much HP can be stolen.

I will admit that this was an intentionally absurd example, but we also would not like our nice little character to waltz around with a few unusually helpful pets which happen to give him/her superpowers. my Idea was to give a set ability strength (as in regulate general usage), and than allow all the character's bonus strength to be reliant on how strong the monsters he/she can kill are. that was the game's preexisting balance extends to the player.



You really don't get undead mastery since you would have to steal from creatures fairly frequently. If you had bothered to read on to other parts of my post, you would see that it would be level 7 before the character could even partake of minutes per level of a stolen feat.

yes, shockingly I did read your post the first time. I understand how it would need to be commonly stolen, but my point is that if at 3rd level you can steal feats from any creature than it becomes a tad unbalanced, and unstable. And yes I understand that the first epic spell that pops into my mind isn't the best choice to point out this flaw but if you would really like there are some awfully dangerous feats out there.


The numbers are obviously not set in stone and are only an estimate of where they would fit as far as power goes. Spell-like abilities are some of the best abilities in the game, hence them not being attainable until level 16

yes I do understand where you are coming from here, but I suggest going by it case by case, which is why I subdivided it smaller, such ad DR, HP, AC, fly speed, land speed, ect. this way we aren't clumping huge sections of abilities of widely ranging effect together.


Who cares if he steals from random people? Most random people suck. Even if he keeps odd company, he won't be able to borrow their better stuff until later in his career, but lets him remain viable in the short term. Having a duration on abilities obviates the need on a cap of abilities. It also makes it so that a DM's mistake isn't unfixable.

Um not so much. Random passersby have some strength, especially if the player ventured close to a friendly mercenary camp, or any other such situation. In fact my first DM used to have most shopkeepers and such more powerful than the players just to simplify the whole stealing thing and because they were a fan of the whole shops have everything idea. (though I understand this isn't good practice some still do it)

Edit: I agree that the body parts should actually need to be stolen which is one on my primary problems with your approach.

Edit 2: ok so I finally got around to watching your movie, and I would give him an at will Gentle Repose fairly soon off, and make him one of those guys who totes around bodies, that is if you want to stick closer to the movie. Than later on I would give him a Spider Climb such that he can goop to the top of cars and the such.