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G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 03:16 PM
Hey guys and gals, quick question I have for the masses here. I have a archer I am re-making to do a throw back campaign which is a continuation of the very first campaign I played in way back when. I know definitely I will be using an elf as that was the race of my first character. Its starting at 20th level and going into epic levels as we are living in the world we all saved in that campaign when was played weekly for almost 3 years. Right now I am thinking of using a wild elf. I have 6 levels non spellcasting ranger/ 5 scout/ 7 order of the bow initiate/ 2 deepwood Sniper. Now the question I had considers partially on how the rules are on partially on what your personal opinions would be. Number one is there a better elf race for a high dex archer. Number two would ranged precision count towards the damage of the many shot feat if not would there be a better PrC that would count for that. My idea is to be able to move with my 50 base land speed and then pop off 4 arrows with a single shot for extra precision damage. I have deadeye from dragon compendium, improved skirmish, and with swift hunter adding my levels together I am doing my dex +5d6 extra damage. That is my basic idea open to criticism or advice from others who have made awesome archers. I only ask you try to keep it close to the source as this is a remake of my first character ever who was just straight scout but an elven archer, nature lover etc. Thx all in advance.:smallbiggrin:

Siosilvar
2010-08-05, 03:19 PM
Number two would ranged precision count towards the damage of the many shot feat if not would there be a better PrC that would count for that.

NO. Ranged precision is a standard action and can't be used with Manyshot. This is one of the reasons why Order of the Bow Initiate is not considered very good - you get only one attack.

In addition, precision damage only applies to one attack in a volley (like Manyshot).

Greater Manyshot, however:


Greater Manyshot [General]

You are skilled at firing many arrows at once, even at different opponents.

Prerequisites

Dex 17, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit

When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.
Special

A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 03:25 PM
I thought that was the case just getting a second opinion on the ranged precision. I do have greater manyshot as well. I forgot to post that in my original run down. I also have a splitting long bow to double the 4 to 8 arrows with many-shot. Are there any good ways that in 7 levels I can up my bow damage based on this basic run down?

Eldariel
2010-08-05, 03:30 PM
OotBI is horrible; you should never take it. There are options for improving your Skirmish-damage faster than the Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter combo tho (though the combo is frankly incredibly solid, especially with Mystic Ranger).

Dragon Devotee [RoTD]
Unseen Seer [CM]
Highland Stalker [CAdv]

EDIT: Oh yeah, other ways to up Bow-damage: Ranged Weapon Mastery [PHBII] through Pious Templar [CDiv] or Fighter; Whirling Frenzy [Barb Rage ACF], etc.

Keld Denar
2010-08-05, 03:31 PM
More Ranger or Scout levels will increase your Skirmish damage, which you would get (twice) on each arrow in a volley thanks to Improved Manyshot. I'd go with that.

Thats about the best way. OotBI is badbadbadbadbad.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 03:37 PM
Alright haha so Order of the Bow is completely out. I am going to change it up to being 9 Ranger/4 Scout/2Deepwood Sniper. So I still have 5 levels to play around with. I will look at the prestige classes mentioned and see what I can get with those. Right now my skirmish is sitting at 6d6 if I move 20 ft. Still if anyone has any better elven races to fit this bill I am open to that as well.

Keld Denar
2010-08-05, 03:44 PM
Wild Elf is best for archers. The extra Str means you can use a higher pull composite bow for more damage, and the Con penalty hurts less for an archer given that you aren't regularly exposed to a lot of attacks unless you get AoEed a lot.

If you are gonna have that many ranger levels, I wouldn't dump your spells. Look in SpC and Champions of Ruin for some REALLY nice ranger spells to round out your abilities.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 03:52 PM
I thought Wild Elf would be the best for the arching. But never hurts to ask. Also the only reason I am taking non spell-casting is because of the increase to land speed so that it would be easier to position myself to be within 30 feet of everyone for my increased damage. Are the few ranger spells I would have be that much better than that or are they worth that trade off. I have not looked too much into them as I have never actually played a ranger.

Keld Denar
2010-08-05, 03:56 PM
You don't get many, but the ones in SpC are really good. The best thing about it is that since they are all level 1-4, you can get Pearls of Power to basically triple your spells/day. Not efficient to use in combat, but a decent option between combats.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-05, 03:58 PM
Wood Elf is the one you are thinking of, with +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con and -2 Int and favored class Ranger.

If you are an elf, half-elf or human... I would take Fleet of Foot as your first level only feat from Player's Guide to Faerūn... to increase your speed by 10 ft when in light or no armor and unencumbered.

I would also recommend the Smiting Spell feat in conjunction with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat if you keep with Mystic Ranger.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 04:14 PM
I am fully stacked on feats for this build. I still have not found a suitable last 5 levels for it either. The Highland stalker would only increase my skirmish by 1d6. I am currently looking through the swift hunters handbook. Maybe I will find something in there.

Keld Denar
2010-08-05, 04:37 PM
Whats wrong with 5 more Ranger levels? More Skirmish, right?

Eldariel
2010-08-05, 04:45 PM
I am fully stacked on feats for this build. I still have not found a suitable last 5 levels for it either. The Highland stalker would only increase my skirmish by 1d6. I am currently looking through the swift hunters handbook. Maybe I will find something in there.

Alright, some Archer-builds here:

Mystic Ranger 9/Scout 5/Cloistered Cleric 1/Unseen Seer 1/Stalker of Kharesh 2/Dragon Devotee 2

This gets you:
- 4 Favored Enemies one of which is Favored Enemy: Evil (from Stalker of Kharesh)
- +6d6/+3 Skirmish (+8d6/+5 Improved)
- 5th level spellcasting at Caster Level 12; Sword of the Arcane Order would open up both, Ranger & Wizard-lists + Mystic Ranger supplemental list.
- Travel Devotion [CChamp] from Cloistered Cleric enabling you to move as a swift action and still full attack. Removes the need for Greater Manyshot by and large, especially combined with your spellcasting also enabling swift movement.
- Knowledge Devotion: Roll Knowledge against the type of foe you're fighting and gain To Hit & Damage bonuses. Likewise from Cloistered Cleric.
- BAB 17 by fractionals.

You could give up +1d6 Skirmish (and other minor bonuses) by trading two levels of Dragon Devotee for two more of Stalker of Kharesh. This would get you Hide in Plain Sight with obvious benefits.


(Mystic) Ranger 3/(Whirling Frenzy) Barbarian 1/(Targeteer) Fighter 4/Wildrunner 2/Peerless Archer 3/Deepwood Sniper ->

This gets you:
- Full attack involving 9 arrows per round by default.
- Full BAB
- Power Shot
- Comparatively massive bonuses (and penalties) to hit.
- Decent damage boosters.
- Critical multipliers + access to Hunter's Mercy (Wands, Pearls of Power & al.)

Ranger 2/Targeteer 1/(Whirling Frenzy) Barbarian 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10

This gets you:
- 9th level maneuvers including Time Stands Still & Raging Mongoose
- Ally-assist tools like White Raven Tactics and Order Forged From Chaos
- Ability to take your turn as a swift action.
- Knowledge Devotion & al.
- Ability to fire ~20+ arrows in one round.


Eternal Blade & Wildrunner are Elf-specific, and the first one is just a good, simple Swift Hunter. All of 'em should carry you just fine.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 04:46 PM
I suppose that could work. Still just another d6 of skirmish for 5 levels. I was just thinking maybe there was something that could do a bit more. But it isn't looking like it as I am looking through everything.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-05, 04:48 PM
You could also try the Arcane Hunter ACF form Complete Mage to select (arcanists) as your first favored enemy.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 04:58 PM
Yep I have that and undead as two of mine to apply the swift hunters ability to bypass immunity to skirmish.

Eldariel
2010-08-05, 05:09 PM
Oh, and note that Deepwood Sniper and Scout aren't really a combo since Skirmish isn't multiplied on Critical and Deepwood Sniper mostly plays off Crits. As such, I'd avoid DWS in a Scout-build.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 05:17 PM
Oh, and note that Deepwood Sniper and Scout aren't really a combo since Skirmish isn't multiplied on Critical and Deepwood Sniper mostly plays off Crits. As such, I'd avoid DWS in a Scout-build.

With greater many shot and the splitting quality on my bow I have 8 arrows each with the 19-20 threat chance of doing x4 damage. Which would include my damage from deadeye, the +5 enchancement on the bow and just the normal d8 that it does. For just two levels that is worth it to me.

Eldariel
2010-08-05, 05:27 PM
With greater many shot and the splitting quality on my bow I have 8 arrows each with the 19-20 threat chance of doing x4 damage. Which would include my damage from deadeye, the +5 enchancement on the bow and just the normal d8 that it does. For just two levels that is worth it to me.

You would be better off gaining more Skirmish-damage instead. Or a wider FE; I still like Stalker of Kharesh; 4 levels for FE: Evil and Hide in Plain Sight? GIMME!

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 05:34 PM
Also very true, scent of evil is strange but neat too. I still have 5 levels to play around with. The only issue with going into the stalker class is that I would need to free up 2 feats which I am completely starved for at the moment. The only thing I can think of at the moment is switching over my non spell-casting variant from complete warrior for the one from complete champion for 2 bonus feats. That may be the way I go.

Eldariel
2010-08-05, 06:05 PM
Also very true, scent of evil is strange but neat too. I still have 5 levels to play around with. The only issue with going into the stalker class is that I would need to free up 2 feats which I am completely starved for at the moment. The only thing I can think of at the moment is switching over my non spell-casting variant from complete warrior for the one from complete champion for 2 bonus feats. That may be the way I go.

Or take levels for feats *shrug*. Cloistered Cleric, Martial Rogue, Fighter, Monk, etc. all offer general purpose bonus feats - fit some into the build and pick the Archery-feats through that path, relieving your normal feats. E.g. Cloistered Cleric can pick a feat for each of its Domains, pretty much.

Notably, Elf-domain grants Point Blank Shot. You'd also get Turn-pool for Travel Devotion and access to Knowledge Devotion so it seems kinda gimme, even with the loss of a point of BAB (Knowledge Devotion easily makes up for that).

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 06:26 PM
I have seen cloistered cleric mentioned so many times on these forums. I would have to assume that it is indeed that good. Not really fitting for my character though. An elven lover of nature who shoots things through the eye socket. But all of these suggestions are def good ones. I just don't know how they would fit.

Eldariel
2010-08-05, 06:36 PM
I have seen cloistered cleric mentioned so many times on these forums. I would have to assume that it is indeed that good. Not really fitting for my character though. An elven lover of nature who shoots things through the eye socket. But all of these suggestions are def good ones. I just don't know how they would fit.

Cleric doesn't have to be some temple priest; just being particularly dedicated to some aspect of existence works. E.g. Travel and Elf-domains would make a world of sense for you, and happen to be just what you need too.

And besides, a character doesn't know his levels; a character just has the abilities from each of his classes and he knows his capabilities which in game terms is the combination of those levels. There's quite a lot of leeway in dips fluff-wise, since they don't have to appear as anything but training of some new skill for the character.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 06:48 PM
Hm...I like how you think good sir. That is a better way to look at things haha

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-05, 09:24 PM
Alright after much searching around I am leaning more towards a Silvanesti Elf 9 Ranger/5 Scout/2 Deepwood Sniper/4 Cragtop Archer...My question is now updated for any of you who may know of this Cragtop Archer PrC. In the adaptation section is states that this class can be adapted to be used with elves. I don't call myself a class creator so I was wondering if this adaptation has been done by anyone already or if any of you folks who are homebrewed specialists would be willing to help me out here. Thanks again for all the great feedback so far. I feel like my first characters facelift is a good one.

Eldariel
2010-08-05, 11:25 PM
Well, it shouldn't really change much outside Mountain Warrior and some fluff. I haven't done such adaptation because the class mostly requires fluff changes for whatever use; just use it as is swapping the feat as necessary. Note tho that it has rather difficult prerequisites.

I'm also not sure about your build; Ranger Archer works fine, but Scout is a very different animal and has specific needs with regards to Skirmish. If you want to go Skirmish, go all the way. It only works within 30' range anyways (60' with Ranged Skirmisher-feat) so stuff like Deepwood Sniper and Cragtop Archer really just doesn't help much. You could use those levels to pump up your Skirmish-damage. Skirmish wants lots of feats and levels devoted to it so to make the most out of it, you really should focus on it.


Alternatively, you could just give up Skirmish and make a traditional Archer; I posted a possible build few posts below, for example:
(Mystic) Ranger 3/(Whirling Frenzy) Barbarian 1/(Targeteer) Fighter 4/Wildrunner 2/Peerless Archer 3/Deepwood Sniper ->

You could also accommodate Cragtop Archer, for example; the slots are rather open. Rest assured, Skirmish is good but Archers don't need it. A good volley archer can still deal upwards 400 points of damage a turn to high ACs by level 20. And a volley archer like this is much better at taking advantage of Deepwood Sniper's Critical Increments; with Hunter's Mercy, you can autoconfirm next critical allowing you to make real snipes. Behold: Take Sword of the Arcane Order, cast True Strike and Quickened Hunter's Mercy while hiding > next turn attack with Power Shot for 20 and confirm the critical for epic damage (~2d8 + Str (+2 Rage +1 Primal Frenzy) + 4 Ranged Weapon Mastery + 5 Knowledge Devotion + 20 Power Shot all multiplied by 5; easily 250 damage with one arrow). Oh, and you can easily make shots without penalties at ~500' with Distance Arrows.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-06, 11:23 AM
The peerless archer power shot ability is indeed quite amazing. I even thought of the potential of using that with many-shot and how incredibly stupid that damage would be esp in the case of any of those 8 arrows doing critical damage. Maybe doing the swift hunter route really isn't the best for me. I only lean towards it because this is just a face-lift for my first character and he was a scout. Actually hiding and scouting ahead but also remaining mobile on the battlefields and dealing his skirmish damage. That power shot is just so hard to pass up though. Hmm

Edit: Looking over the mystic ranger/Wildrunner options the abilities that I would gain from just two levels of wildrunner would be amazing for scouting. Trackless step and scent plus the dex boost of primal scream. I may have to be doing this from the ground up. Shooting star variants with sword of the arcane order would be awesome for spell casting help too. Alright starting over and seeing what else I can find.

Ruinix
2010-08-06, 11:46 AM
if buyoff LA is allowed then take Raptoran (RotW) for race, have ranger as class and raptoran bow (exotic) as martial, wich can add 1 1/2 STR on damage.

can get wings and good fly speed ^^.

if not the other way to do precision damage will be:

mistic ranger 5 / scout 2 / elf paladin 2 / X scout.

insteed of use bow, use crossbow, wich can extend to 60' the precision damage.

go for 2 hand weapon f. line feat and take 2 hand crossbows, 1 in each hand.

dont use rapid fire, for lev 20 is way to better permanent haste on item.

spliting of force for both hand crossbows and enjoy.


this can be enhanced using thri-keen race with multiweapon feat ^^ but i guess that is way to much cheedar XDD

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-08-06, 12:17 PM
Raptorians are really good but this is a remake of my original D&D Character who was an elf. I think that would be a little too much of a facelift for him. But good input regardless.

elonin
2010-08-06, 09:14 PM
And I always thought that you had to do precision damage to get by as an archer.

Eldariel
2010-08-06, 09:39 PM
And I always thought that you had to do precision damage to get by as an archer.

There are three major options for Archery damage:
- Precision
- Spell Boosts (see: Cleric/Archivist/Arcane/(Mystic) Ranger)
- Volley + Point Stacks

Volley can't get similar amounts of damage as Precision, but you can get it at any range, and lots more hits which gives you enough to work with. 3.0 material adds some wonderful martial damage buffs in Power Shot, Improved Criticals and such.

And honestly, if you can deal 200+ damage on level 10 (~double that for 20), that shouldn't be your Achilles's Heel anymore. Indeed, Knowledge Devotion, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Splitting/Raptor Arrows and all the means to gain extra attacks really hit archery where it needs the boost.

elonin
2010-08-07, 10:04 PM
It's helpful to know that. I've wanted to build an archery primary character and feared that damage would be his main problem. Going the non-precision route makes it easier to put points into strength and thus use a composite bow. Still seems as though it's easier to shut down someone who is using archery than it is a melee brawler. Is that wrong?

Eldariel
2010-08-07, 10:14 PM
It's helpful to know that. I've wanted to build an archery primary character and feared that damage would be his main problem. Going the non-precision route makes it easier to put points into strength and thus use a composite bow. Still seems as though it's easier to shut down someone who is using archery than it is a melee brawler. Is that wrong?

Depends. Once you get Force-bow and Seeking, you suddenly become very hard to even disrupt, particularly if you can get Close-Combat Shot (Exotic Weapon Master is a great source of that for Greatbow-users; others only have two levels of Order of the Bow Initiate as an option which kinda sucks and frankly, Feat-level for EWP: Greatbow and Exotic Weapon Master is actually better than that). Of course attacking the bow is always a good option for taking out an archer, but later on the extras aren't that bad; 2000 for a spare Bow of Winterymoon; adjusts to Str.

Also, having the ability to cheaply and without wasting actions vary the materials (and indeed, even the enhancements) by carrying different arrows definitely gives you a lot of options against people trying to shut you down.


You definitely can't afford to lose all your bows (unless you're a Soulbow) and you aren't too comfortable at very close quarters (and many dungeons don't give you that much room for mobility, though they also make Phase Arrows absolutely wonderful...), but most of the "weaknesses" of archery are only problems for non-focused characters.

Once you have access to miss chance removal, force & metal arrows and the various feats/class features (Imp. Precise Shot, Woodland Archer, so on) that negate those issues, you're left with quite the versatile offense suite. But like all combatants using weapons, always bring spares once you can afford it. Early on archery has the annoying limitation of Composite Bows costing fortunes.