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Prax4788
2010-08-05, 05:12 PM
my and some other players in my game are at a bit of a disagreement

according to them flurry of blows doesn't stack with anything
as in it only uses your level of monk so if say im a 5 monk 4 rogue

i would have a attack with flurry of 5 base attack + nothing for rogue
as apposed to how i thought it would work

with the flurry not going up but u treat the base attack as 5 for monk and the rogue levels normal


who is wrong here

RickGriffin
2010-08-05, 05:13 PM
my and some other players in my game are at a bit of a disagreement

according to them flurry of blows doesn't stack with anything
as in it only uses your level of monk so if say im a 5 monk 4 rogue

i would have a attack with flurry of 5 base attack + nothing for rogue
as apposed to how i thought it would work

with the flurry not going up but u treat the base attack as 5 for monk and the rogue levels normal


who is wrong here

Yes, flurry of blows and your other monk abilities only advance if the class you advance in specifically says they do.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 05:15 PM
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
This is the relevant line:

For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
It is an unfortunate phrase, but it is the case.

Mojo_Rat
2010-08-05, 05:15 PM
When you flurry with a Monk 5 4 rogue your BAb would be 8

You would have all the meenfits of level 5 monk flurry So BAB +5 and then the +3 from rogue would be tacked on top of that.

Gametime
2010-08-05, 05:16 PM
You use your full base attack bonus when making a flurry of blows, from all your classes. More monk levels are only necessary to advance the extra attacks granted by flurry, not to get more base attack bonus for it.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 05:19 PM
You use your full base attack bonus when making a flurry of blows, from all your classes. More monk levels are only necessary to advance the extra attacks granted by flurry, not to get more base attack bonus for it.

False.


For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
Monk 5/Fighter 4, BAB goes down when flurrying.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 05:21 PM
You use your full base attack bonus when making a flurry of blows, from all your classes. More monk levels are only necessary to advance the extra attacks granted by flurry, not to get more base attack bonus for it.

This. The class page even compares it with TWF and points the levels at which flurry grants more attacks.

Flurrying with a multiclassed monk consists of doing 1,2 or 3 extra attacks(based on monk level), with bab equal to monk level + other classes' bab.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 05:22 PM
False.


Monk 5/Fighter 4, BAB goes down when flurrying.
{Scrubbed}

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 05:22 PM
This. The class page even compares it with TWF and points the levels at which flurry grants more attacks.

Flurrying with a multiclassed monk consists of doing 1,2 or 3 extra attacks(based on monk level), with bab equal to monk level + other classes' bab.

No, it doesn't. Read the ability. It says "BAB = monk level". There is no "other classes".

lord_khaine
2010-08-05, 05:23 PM
I think a lot of people are missing that its the Pathfinder monk, apperently they made a serious mistake in the wording of the FoB ability.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 05:26 PM
I'm pretty sure that goes down into deliberately being an ass about rules. Even because you could as well read that "monk bab = monk level", not "character bab = monk level".

So on that, then, if I use a special ability like, say, cleric spellcasting, and go Cleric 5/Fighter 4, I should be as good at spellcasting as a Cleric 9? Of course not, that is silly.

Flurry (apparently) now works the same way.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 05:26 PM
{Scrubbed}

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 05:29 PM
Yet he would spank as a fighter 8 before spells. There's not a single class that completely halts your BAB.

It doesn't halt BAB, it halts the progression of a class feature. Does a Fighter 4/Rogue 4 have Sneak Attack +4d6? No, he has Sneak Attack +2d6. Multiclassing halts the progression of class features.

Prax4788
2010-08-05, 05:36 PM
It really doesn't make sense when u read the wizard and cleric ability how your cleric stuff does go up being as how parts of it are worded as "class level"

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 05:38 PM
A class feature that is BAB. By that logic feats a fighter got as bonus feats should scale based on fighter levels instead of character levels.


I'm gonna drop here because flurry bab not scaling of character level, when everything else screams that it should, the "concept" says it should, the "good sense of not allowing iron heart surges to cancel antimagic fields" says it should....I think you got it. You probably agree that RAW is wrong, but it ticks me off you pointing out that RAW when no one benefits from such an obvious mistake. It really only serves as a bad example.

Prax4788
2010-08-05, 05:40 PM
Isn't there a term for when they resale a clarification of the rules ?

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 05:40 PM
Isn't there a term for when they resale a clarification of the rules ?

Errata? FAQ?

Prax4788
2010-08-05, 05:42 PM
Errata? FAQ?

errata was what i was looking for ty

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 05:42 PM
I'm gonna drop here because flurry bab not scaling of character level, when everything else screams that it should, the "concept" says it should, the "good sense of not allowing iron heart surges to cancel antimagic fields" says it should....I think you got it. You probably agree that RAW is wrong, but it ticks me off you pointing out that RAW when no one benefits from such an obvious mistake. It really only serves as a bad example.

This is wrong because:


A class feature that is BAB. By that logic feats a fighter got as bonus feats should scale based on fighter levels instead of character levels.
...the class feature isn't BAB. It's a special function of a class feature that alters your BAB. Similarly, divine power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) alters your BAB.

Flurry is very clearly worded to be a disincentive for multiclassing out of monk.

This class feature says, "your BAB = your monk level", not your character level, or your caster level, or your hit dice. As flurry is a function of being a monk, one would then assume that higher-level monks would be better at it. Lo and behold, the phrasing they have used ensures that they are.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-05, 05:51 PM
One of the designers clarified that it stacks with other classes on messagebords. But I'm not sure where/which person.
I think Jeremy, but I could be wrong.

Prax4788
2010-08-05, 05:52 PM
This class feature says, "your BAB = your monk level", not your character level, or your caster level, or your hit dice. As flurry is a function of being a monk, one would then assume that higher-level monks would be better at it. Lo and behold, the phrasing they have used ensures that they are.[/QUOTE]

the only problem with this is the only feature in game that stops dead in its tracks
buffs from other classes still stack at the level u got them
imagine if u could only sneak attack with your rogue levels

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 05:54 PM
the only problem with this is the only feature in game that stops dead in its tracks
buffs from other classes still stack at the level u got them
imagine if u could only sneak attack with your rogue levels

No it's not. Spells (and your caster level) don't advance if you multiclass. Sneak Attack doesn't advance if you multiclass. Fighter bonus feats don't advance if you multiclass. Barbarian rage. Bardic music. Ranger favored enemy.

If you are not taking levels in a class, its class features (barring specific circumstances) do not increase.

Mojo_Rat
2010-08-05, 05:55 PM
in the conversion guide it says

A monk’s base attack bonus when performing a flurry of
blows is now equal to his level. His attacks are made as if
using Two-Weapon Fighting (and its improvements at later
levels). Table 3–10 summarizes these bonuses. Change your
flurry of blows base bonuses to match these values (plus
any increases to your base attack bonus from other classes,
which might give you additional attacks with your primary
strike). Note that other increases to your base attack bonus
do not increase the number of attacks you can make with
your off hand, as the bonus feats to gain these attacks are
not gained until you reach the required level of monk.

Really what it comes down to is a class feature that actvating it would actually Gimp you is retarded. a Monk 4 rogue 4 when he flurries has a BaB of 8 and would get its attacks based on what a monk 5 has + the iterative attacks of a bab +8

Prax4788
2010-08-05, 05:59 PM
No it's not. Spells (and your caster level) don't advance if you multiclass. Sneak Attack doesn't advance if you multiclass. Fighter bonus feats don't advance if you multiclass. Barbarian rage. Bardic music. Ranger favored enemy.

If you are not taking levels in a class, its class features (barring specific circumstances) do not increase.

your missing that all of those features go up with your basic stats without exception

spells still get more potent and more accurate and buffs always stack with what your doing

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 06:02 PM
spells still get more potent and more accurate

...No, they don't.

A wizard 5/fighter 4 (character level 9) has a caster level of 5. This means if he casts fireball, it's going to deal 5d6 damage.

A wizard 9 (character level 9) has a caster level of 9. This means if he casts a fireball, it's going to deal 9d6 damage.

A bard 4/fighter 1 (character level 5) has Inspire Courage +1.

A bard 5 (character level 5) has Inspire Courage +2.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 06:03 PM
...No, they don't.

A wizard 5/fighter 4 (character level 9) has a caster level of 5. This means if he casts fireball, it's going to deal 5d6 damage.

A wizard 9 (character level 9) has a caster level of 9. This means if he casts a fireball, it's going to deal 9d6 damage.

Answer to Mojo Rat. Now one RAW statement discredits the other RAW statement.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 06:04 PM
Answer to Mojo Rat. Now one RAW statement discredits the other RAW statement.

That's an update guide. Primary Source for class features would be the PHB. An update guide is not errata, it's a means to transfer from 3.5 to PF easier.

Prax4788
2010-08-05, 06:05 PM
...No, they don't.

A wizard 5/fighter 4 (character level 9) has a caster level of 5. This means if he casts fireball, it's going to deal 5d6 damage.

A wizard 9 (character level 9) has a caster level of 9. This means if he casts a fireball, it's going to deal 9d6 damage.

A bard 4/fighter 1 (character level 5) has Inspire Courage +1.

A bard 5 (character level 5) has Inspire Courage +2.

not the only measure of a spell true base attack bonas still makes all rays hit more and your caster stat going up still makes spells harder to make saves

BobVosh
2010-08-05, 06:06 PM
Unfortunately by RAW Fax is right, as usual. Fortunately most DMs will allow it stack (I imagine, I would at least) for purpose of calculating the BAB but not the progression of hits.

So technically if you are a Monk 2/ Fighter 18 you only have a 2 BAB for flurry. I would count it as 20 BAB since I find it rather silly otherwise.


That's an update guide. Primary Source for class features would be the PHB. An update guide is not errata, it's a means to transfer from 3.5 to PF easier.

Which also makes it older and secondary.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 06:07 PM
not the only measure of a spell true base attack bonas still makes all rays hit more and your caster stat going up still makes spells harder to make saves

Right, but those features explicitly state that they are based on your statistic, not on your class level.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 06:07 PM
That's an update guide. Primary Source for class features would be the PHB. An update guide is not errata, it's a means to transfer from 3.5 to PF easier.

And it still clearly mentions that your flurry bab doesn't halt if you stop taking monk levels.

They're both official material, both are freely available, you can't conveniently deny them.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 06:10 PM
And it still clearly mentions that your flurry bab doesn't halt if you stop taking monk levels.

They're both official material, both are freely available, you can't conveniently deny them.

I am not "conveniently denying" anything. The Update Packet plays second fiddle to the actual rulebook where the rules themselves are introduced. Unless you'd like to start arguing over the difference between the beta class and the final class as well.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 06:12 PM
{Scrubbed}

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 06:14 PM
Beta and Published doesn't compare because both are published.

So if two sources disagree, you believe the more convenient one takes precedence?

Mojo_Rat
2010-08-05, 06:15 PM
Your right a Wiz 5/ fighter 4 would cast spells as a level 5 wizard
and a wizard 9 would cast as a level 9 wizard

however a level 9 wizard fighter 1 has a Bab of +5 because the Fighter levels stack with the wizard ones for Bab

look this isnt rocket scence.. For the purposes of flurry of blows it treats your monk levels as having full Bab.

a level 5 monk level 15 fighter doesnt have a Bab of 5 when he flurries with paired Kukri he has a Bab of 20.

However i am trying to find an official statement on the paizo forums but my search fu is weak.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 06:18 PM
Your right a Wiz 5/ fighter 4 would cast spells as a level 5 wizard
and a wizard 9 would cast as a level 9 wizardCorrect.


however a level 9 wizard fighter 1 has a Bab of +5 because the Fighter levels stack with the wizard ones for BabCorrect


For the purposes of flurry of blows it treats your monk levels as having full Bab.Incorrect. You got it backwards. Your BAB = your monk levels. Monk 5/fighter 15 has 5 monk levels no matter how you slice it.

lsfreak
2010-08-05, 06:20 PM
Fax is right.

Is the RAW ridiculous? Yes. Is it something you should houserule? Almost certainly. Can you argue that it's not RAW? No.

Fax Celestis
2010-08-05, 06:22 PM
Is the RAW ridiculous? Yes. Is it something you should houserule? Almost certainly. Can you argue that it's not RAW? No.

Exactly. Thank you.

BobVosh
2010-08-05, 06:23 PM
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.

Where does it say "the BAB for his monk levels is equal to his monk levels." It says the monk's (as in the character) BAB is equal to his monk level. Not his monk level + other classes BAB.

The update guide is older and a guide. Not a rule book. The actual Pathfinder RPG book is the rules. PRD backs it up with the same wording.

RickGriffin
2010-08-05, 06:25 PM
From what I have seen at the Pazio boards, however, the level statement in the Monk's class feature does not specifically exclude multiclassing and therefore stacks with multiclass BAB (???)

Even if it was a "general rule" that did not need to be stated because it was not an exception, having clarification text is always nice.

soulchicken
2010-08-05, 06:33 PM
If you let FoB make your BAB = your character level when flurrying, then any 3/4 or 1/2 progression classes that even thinks about making an unarmed attack needs to take only 1 level of monk.

monk 1 rogue 19 would have a normal, BAB of what? 15? He then flurries some unarmed attacks and lo and behold, now has a BAB of 18 (20-2).

The way the rules are worded prevents dipping 1 level in monk to give you a huge bonus for another class.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-05, 06:42 PM
From what I have seen at the Pazio boards, however, the level statement in the Monk's class feature does not specifically exclude multiclassing and therefore stacks with multiclass BAB (???)

Even if it was a "general rule" that did not need to be stated because it was not an exception, having clarification text is always nice.

The designer agrees that raw doesn't preclude (http://paizo.com/hallOfInquiry/general/aSKYOURPRPGQUESTIONSHERE&page=4#178) non-monk bab to stack for flurry

All of the class language is insular, in that it refers to the class and its abilities assuming that is the only class you have. The key here is the "monk's base attack bonus" which means that it only refers to the portion of the characters BAB that comes from monk. Nowhere does it state that it does not stack with all of the other BAB bonuses you have.

That said, I will try to ensure that this makes it into the FAQ.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Frosty
2010-08-05, 06:57 PM
RAW Fax is right. RAI I think they mean that when you flurry your Monk level BAB goes up to full progression, and then tack on whatever BAB you have from non-monk classes.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-05, 11:47 PM
The designer agrees that raw doesn't preclude (http://paizo.com/hallOfInquiry/general/aSKYOURPRPGQUESTIONSHERE&page=4#178) non-monk bab to stack for flurry

This.
stupid character limit