Bowman - PF base class [PEACH]

[DEMON]

For reasons I can´t really remember I have felt the urge to create a non-spellcasting purely archery/ranged combat oriented base class with skillset and abilities to compliment his career choice. So here he is for your EaHC:


Bowman

BAB: full
Good saves: FOR, REF
HD: 8
Skill-points/level: 6
Class skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Escape Artist, Heal, Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Profession, Stealth, Survival, Swim.

Alignment: Any
Armor proficiency: Light armor + buckler
Weapon proficiency: Club, dagger, quarterstaff, all simple and martial and a single exotic ranged weapon

Special class features:
Ranged Weapon Aptitude - for fighter only feats, treat your FTR level as Bowman-2 (e.g. Weapon Specialization (Greatbow) can be taken at class level 6); by spending 1 hour to practice with a ranged weapon, you can apply any weapon feat you know to apply to this particular kind of weapons
Range increment bonus - Range increments of ranged weapons increase by 10 ft./lvl (this bonus is added after all other modifiers, such as Far Shot Feat or Distance Special Ability)
(Improved) Uncanny doge - nothing special about it
(Improved) Evasion - yet again a well known ability
Bonus feats - taken at 1st and every 3 levels thereafter; must meet all the prerequisites
List of feats (taken from Pathfinder and official 3.5 supplements): Weapon Focus, Weapon specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Ranged Weapon Mastery (PHB2), Improved Critical, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Rapid Shot (CW), Manyshot, Greater Manyshot (XPH), Shot on the Run, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Far Shot, Able Sniper (RotW), Bow Feint (DRMag350), Sharp-Shooting (CW), Woodland Archer (RotW), Concealed Ambush (DRMag339)
Mighty Pull - Treat Bowman´s strength as 2/4/6-higher for the purposes of using composite (mighty) bows of particular strength bonus.
Agile Shot - Add DEX bonus to damage when attacking with ranged weapons against opponents denied their dexterity bonus within 30 ft. (60 ft. at level 15) - precision based damage.
Combat Archery - 2nd level - attacking with ranged weapon when threatened does not provoke AoOs; 6th level - for each point of attack bonus deducted, gain 1 point of damage - can´t deduct more then his current BAB (I really don´t like the new version of Power Attack); 10 - threaten area of 10 ft. radius; 14 - with a full round action take a single shot with no penalty for ranged (limited only by maximum range of the weapon used); 18 - use True Strike as an extraordinary ability 1/encounter - standard action to use
Master Archer - no range limit on precision based attacks (Agile Shot, Point Blank Shot, Skirmish, Sneak Attack...); Can, as a full round action, take a single shot against a flat footed opponent, dealing normal damage and forcing a FOR save on hit (DC = 1/2 class level + damage dealt) - if the save is failed, targed dies instantly. Can not be used more than once against a particular enemy on a given day.



{table=head]Level| BAB |Fort Save |Reflex Save |Will Save |Special
1 |+1 |+2 |+2 |+0 |Feat, Ranged Weapon Aptitude, Range Increment Bonus
2 |+2 |+3 |+3 |+0 |Combat Archery (Close Combat Shot)
3 |+3 |+3 |+3 |+1 |Mighty Pull +2
4 |+4 |+4 |+4 |+1 |Feat, Uncanny Dodge
5 |+5 |+4 |+4 |+1 |Agile Shot (+0,5) 30 ft.
6 |+6/+1 |+5 |+5 |+2 |Combat Archery (Power Shot)
7 |+7/+2 |+5 |+5 |+2 |Feat
8 |+8/+3 |+6 |+6 |+2 |Improved Uncanny Dodge
9 |+9/+4 |+6 |+6 |+3 |Evasion
10 |+10/+5 |+7 |+7 |+3 |Feat, Combat Archery (Threaten 10 ft.)
11 |+11/+6/+1 |+7 |+7 |+3 |Mighty Pull +4
12 |+12/+7/+2 |+8 |+8 |+4 |Camouflage
13 |+13/+8/+3 |+8 |+8 |+4 |Feat
14 |+14/+9/+4 |+9 |+9 |+4 |Combat Archery (Horizon Shot)
15 |+15/+10/+5 |+9 |+9 |+5 |Agile Shot (+1) 60 ft.
16 |+16/+11/+6/+1 |+10 |+10 |+5 |Feat, Improved Evasion
17 |+17/+12/+7/+2 |+10 |+10 |+5 |Hide in Plain Sight
18 |+18/+13/+8/+3 |+11 |+11 |+6 |Combat Archery (True Strike)
19 |+19/+14/+9/+4 |+11 |+11 |+6 |Feat, Mighty Pull +6
20 |+20/+15/+10/+5 |+12 |+12 |+6 |Master Archer[/table]

[FlamingKobold]

Quote and copy this table:
{table=head]Level| BAB |Fort Save |Reflex Save |Will Save |Special
1 |+1 |+2 |+2 |+0 |Feat, Trapfinding
2 |+2 |+3 |+3 |+0 |Combat Archery (Close Combat Shot)
3 |+3 |+3 |+3 |+1 |Mighty Pull +2
4 |+4 |+4 |+4 |+1 |Feat, Uncanny Dodge
5 |+5 |+4 |+4 |+1 |Agile Shot (+0,5) 30 ft.
6 |+6/+1 |+5 |+5 |+2 |Combat Archery (Power Shot)
7 |+7/+2 |+5 |+5 |+2 |Feat
8 |+8/+3 |+6 |+6 |+2 |Improved Uncanny Dodge
9 |+9/+4 |+6 |+6 |+3 |Evasion
10 |+10/+5 |+7 |+7 |+3 |Feat, Combat Archery (Threaten 10 ft.)
11 |+11/+6/+1 |+7 |+7 |+3 |Mighty Pull +4
12 |+12/+7/+2 |+8 |+8 |+4 |Camouflage
13 |+13/+8/+3 |+8 |+8 |+4 |Feat
14 |+14/+9/+4 |+9 |+9 |+4 |Combat Archery (Horizon Shot)
15 |+15/+10/+5 |+9 |+9 |+5 |Agile Shot (+1) 60 ft.
16 |+16/+11/+6/+1 |+10 |+10 |+5 |Feat, Improved Evasion
17 |+17/+12/+7/+2 |+10 |+10 |+5 |Hide in Plain Sight
18 |+18/+13/+8/+3 |+11 |+11 |+6 |Combat Archery (True Strike)
19 |+19/+14/+9/+4 |+11 |+11 |+6 |Feat, Mighty Pull +6
20 |+20/+15/+10/+5 |+12 |+12 |+6 |Master Archer[/table]

[DEMON]

You have just made my day. Thank you very much :smallsmile:

[Lev]

What about the Scout?

[DEMON]

What about the Scout?

A lot of things, actually. Although my custom class borrows quite a lot from Scout and Ranger (or Swift Hunter, if you wish) and a fair bit from Targeteer as well, I´m aiming for a single class w/o need to multiclass or go too much out of its way to be really good at its niche.

Unlike scout, who relies on mobility and skirmish, the Bowman has pretty much equaly good chance of being an effective damage dealer through volleys of arrows and a single-shot or more likely (Greater) Manyshot sniping and his abilities are mostly related to ranged combat with an addition of some defensive abilities I consider reasonable for a character that is supposed to be well aware of the situation on the battlefield near and far.

I´m not looking for suggestions of similar classes and builds as much as real evaluation and honest criticism of this particular custom class in terms of game balance and possible viability in game.

I could always just go with a cleric archer and be done with it, but that´s not the point of this.

[Lev]

A lot of things, actually. Although my custom class borrows quite a lot from Scout and Ranger (or Swift Hunter, if you wish) and a fair bit from Targeteer as well, I´m aiming for a single class w/o need to multiclass or go too much out of its way to be really good at its niche.

Unlike scout, who relies on mobility and skirmish, the Bowman has pretty much equaly good chance of being an effective damage dealer through volleys of arrows and a single-shot or more likely (Greater) Manyshot sniping and his abilities are mostly related to ranged combat with an addition of some defensive abilities I consider reasonable for a character that is supposed to be well aware of the situation on the battlefield near and far.

I´m not looking for suggestions of similar classes and builds as much as real evaluation and honest criticism of this particular custom class in terms of game balance and possible viability in game.

I could always just go with a cleric archer and be done with it, but that´s not the point of this.

The PrC in my link is similar to your situation actually, no need to be defensive ;]

Well, why not encorp some deepwood sniper in there too?

[jiriku]

Needs more class skills. A human bowman with moderate Int could easily max all those skills and have points left over. Add like 8 more class skills.

[DEMON]

The PrC in my link is similar to your situation actually, no need to be defensive ;]

Didn´t mean to be offensive, nor defensive, but I really don´t like it when people suggest workarounds instead of concentrating on the topic at hand.


Well, why not encorp some deepwood sniper in there too?

I took inspiration for the level 18 ability from the Deepwood guy :smallwink:
Didn´t really want to go for the crit boosters and range boosters (although they are available trough the bonus feats), so I passed on the other class features of Deepwood Sniper.
Edit: Added range increment bonus to Bowman´s class features.


Needs more class skills. A human bowman with moderate Int could easily max all those skills and have points left over. Add like 8 more class skills.

Hmm, forgot to add Disable Device to the list and I´m also considering Bluff, Escape artist and/or Heal.

I don´t think I could add as many as 8 class skliss on the list, considering the fact, the reduced number of skills in Pathfinder.

If nothing else helps, there´s always the contraproductive solution of reducing skill points/level to 4 :smallbiggrin:

[DEMON]

Edits: Trapfinding removed from Class Features, Skills Heal, Escape Artist and Bluff added to the list of class skills, Skil Focus: Craft (bows) added as bonus feat at 1st level, Ranged Increment Bonus of 10 ft./level added as Class Feature.
Profession added to the list of class skills. Sourcebook reference added to feats which are not from Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

[DEMON]

Not that I´m getting any feedback at all for a few days, but a new idea just sprung into my mind and I´d like some opinions on this matter.
I´m thinking about removing Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge from the class´ class features and instead replacing them with bonus two feats: Master Craftsman: Craft (Bows) for level 4 and Craft Magic Arms and Armor for level 8. The idea is help the character with crafting his own bows and (mostly) arrows.
Do you guys think this would be stepping onto someones toes (a wizard comes to mind), or it would instead help the class become useful for the non-adventuring parts of the campaing?

[Lev]

Not that I´m getting any feedback at all for a few days, but a new idea just sprung into my mind and I´d like some opinions on this matter.
I´m thinking about removing Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge from the class´ class features and instead replacing them with bonus two feats: Master Craftsman: Craft (Bows) for level 4 and Craft Magic Arms and Armor for level 8. The idea is help the character with crafting his own bows and (mostly) arrows.
Do you guys think this would be stepping onto someones toes (a wizard comes to mind), or it would instead help the class become useful for the non-adventuring parts of the campaing?
Crafting magic arms without it being optional sounds like a prestige class personally.

I'd personally give them some sort of bow melee fighting technique to turn a bow into essentially a double-sjambok, or a crossbow into something like a pickaxe, and then give them an ability to not have any penalties from switching from ranged to melee with the same weapon.

Also, seems like bowman is a team player, why not give them something that has synergy or team boosting effects with other arches? I can see a high level bowman leading a group of archers then giving them strategic advice and shooting signal arrows at targets, ect.

[Hawriel]

Have your seen pathfinder's Advanced Players Guide?

It has alternat class rules. There is an archer variant, as well as a crossbowmen, and scout. The book just game out this week.

[Knaight]

This class is a little short on power. I would remove the craft bonus and magic weapon crafting for bows and crossbows, increase the range increment bonus a few more times (maybe levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20), and specify that it can use ranged weapon feats built for one ranged weapon with any (somewhere in the mid levels). After all, might as well make effective knife throwers, slingers, javelin throwers, etc. with the same class.

[DEMON]

Thanks to all of you for contributing.


Crafting magic arms without it being optional sounds like a prestige class personally.

I'd personally give them some sort of bow melee fighting technique to turn a bow into essentially a double-sjambok, or a crossbow into something like a pickaxe, and then give them an ability to not have any penalties from switching from ranged to melee with the same weapon.

Also, seems like bowman is a team player, why not give them something that has synergy or team boosting effects with other arches? I can see a high level bowman leading a group of archers then giving them strategic advice and shooting signal arrows at targets, ect.

Intriguing ideas, thank you.

As it is, the crafting only works for magic bows and arrows - main reason for this class feature is for the character to be able to create his own arrows, even those imbued with magic. Due to the limited nature of Master Craftsman feat, Bowman can´t create any other magic items.

The class already has the ability to use it´s ranged weapon in melee without any penalty and turning a bow into club, or quarterstaff and switching between melee and ranged attacks during a round is realy a question of 300 gp (for the elvencraft property).

When it comes to using special arrows... hmm... now I guess it´s yet again tied to the crafting skill (there are some special arrows that can be made with Craft (alchemy), and signal arrow is one of them, AFAIK).


Have your seen pathfinder's Advanced Players Guide?

It has alternat class rules. There is an archer variant, as well as a crossbowmen, and scout. The book just game out this week.

No, I´m afraid I don´t have that sourcebook.


This class is a little short on power. I would remove the craft bonus and magic weapon crafting for bows and crossbows, increase the range increment bonus a few more times (maybe levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20), and specify that it can use ranged weapon feats built for one ranged weapon with any (somewhere in the mid levels). After all, might as well make effective knife throwers, slingers, javelin throwers, etc. with the same class.

The range increment bonus is gained on a per level basis. So at level 20 it´s +200 ft.
Interesting idea about ranged feats synergy... perhaps an approach similar to Warblade´s Weapon Aptitude?

[Lev]

Do you have the Arms and Eq guide sourcebook?

What about instead of magical arrows you just make alchemical arrows instead?

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8033/arrowdk.jpg

Arrow, Alchemist’s: Each of these projectiles carries
a deadly load of alchemist’s fire in its hollow
shaft. When it strikes a target, the arrow’s shaft shatters,
releasing the alchemist’s fire directly onto the
target. One round after impact, the alchemist’s fire
ignites, dealing 1d4 points of damage. The target can
use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the
flames before taking this damage. It takes a successful
Reflex saving throw (DC 15) to extinguish the flames.
Rolling on the ground earns the target a +2 bonus on
the save. Submerging (such as by leaping into a lake)
or magically extinguishing the flames automatically
kills the flames.

Arrow, Blunt: These arrows have wooden tips specially
crafted to deal subdual damage instead of normal
damage.

Arrow, Flight: The light shaft and special design
of this masterwork arrow increases a bow’s range
increment by 25 feet.

Arrow, Signal: This arrow is specially designed to
emulate a bird’s call when fired. Elven fletchers craft
the arrows to make calls that will be recognized as
signals by the elves of the community. For example, a
hawk’s cry might signal an attack, and an owl’s
screech might signal a stealthy advance. A successful
Wilderness Lore check (DC 20) determines whether
the sound comes from a bird or another source. The
intricate carving on the arrow shafts makes them
clumsy in flight, imposing a –2 circumstance penalty
on attack rolls.

Arrow, Thunder: Thunder arrows are tipped with
thunderstones (see Chapter 7 of the Player ’s
Handbook). A hit from a thunder arrow deals no
damage but triggers the thunderstone’s sonic attack.
Thunder arrows that miss should be treated as
attacks with a grenadelike weapon (see Chapter 8 of
the Player’s Handbook).

Bolt, Tumbling: A tumbling bolt resembles a standard
crossbow bolt except for a few minuscule holes
and vents along the shaft. A channel allows air to pass
through the bolt, which causes the bolt to tumble
when fired. The bolt deals +2 damage but only has
one-half its normal range increment due to the way
the projectile moves through the air

[DEMON]

Edits: All Craft skills added to the list of class skllis, Skill Focus: Craft removed from Class Features (1st level), Ranged Weapon Aptitude added instead

[Ashtagon]

Bolt, Tumbling: A tumbling bolt resembles a standard
crossbow bolt except for a few minuscule holes
and vents along the shaft. A channel allows air to pass
through the bolt, which causes the bolt to tumble
when fired. The bolt deals +2 damage but only has
one-half its normal range increment due to the way
the projectile moves through the air

This is so blatantly against common sense (and the laws of physics) that it makes my head hurt.

[DrWeird]

18 - use True Strike as an extraordinary ability 1/encounter - standard action to use

Haha...what? Shouldn't this be a per/day thing? I mean, a sorcerer can only cast it six times a day, not including bonus spells. And you mentioned it was non-spellcasting, right? I mean, I can grasp it as a Supernatural ability, extraordinary ability maybe, but cut it down to a certain amount per day. Then again, maybe it's just me.

[Morph Bark]

Are the club, dagger and quarterstaff not simple weapons in PF?

[Lev]

This is so blatantly against common sense (and the laws of physics) that it makes my head hurt.
I'd have to sit on the fence with this one, I can see this bolt turning more into a mace hit (really this bolt should lower the range increment to about 15') but really the bolt probably is very heavy and is more like a bullet than anything, not like an arrow-- they block and it shatters their arm instead of making it bleed and sticking into it.

Personally I always enable a complex damage system to deal with these types of things, but there's only a few cases I can think of that a tumbling bolt would deal more damage.

Bolt of Mass
This complex alchemical bolt is used by gnomish master artillerymen out on the field, their clever design allows them to grow in mid-air allowing them to be heavier than when they were first fired.
Due to the sheer mass they lose 100' of range increment, but the weapon's damage increases 1 stage, for every 100' topping out at 2D6 in which case it becomes a metal ball resembling an orc shotput.
The range increment loss simulates arch and is added additionally to the range increment loss of the actual distance. If you choose to add 400' or more the bolt lands the next round in the targeted square (if hit).

[Ashtagon]

I'd have to sit on the fence with this one, I can see this bolt turning more into a mace hit (really this bolt should lower the range increment to about 15') but really the bolt probably is very heavy and is more like a bullet than anything, not like an arrow-- they block and it shatters their arm instead of making it bleed and sticking into it.

Personally I always enable a complex damage system to deal with these types of things, but there's only a few cases I can think of that a tumbling bolt would deal more damage.

ok, first, the tumbling will knock the range to very little, as you noted. Second, suppose (as you did) the bolt strikes edge-on rather than point-on. The total energy is still a function of MV2. The mass remained the same, and the V is a lot lower, which means the total energy is a lot lower (and even directly striking a bone, standard crossbow bolts lack the impact energy to shatter a bone; they aren't modern high-velocity firearms). Next, the ability to penetrate is a function of total energy / impact area. Striking edge-on, the impact area is a lot bigger, and as noted earlier, the total energy is a lot lower, so it is unlikely to penetrate. Finally, ballistics tests have shown that even bullets once believed to be designed to tumble (such as the AK-47's hollow point rounds) don't. No bullet tumbles just like that, and all bullets tumble exactly once (a single 180° turn) when subjected to a single obstacle, such as thick paper.

[Lev]

ok, first, the tumbling will knock the range to very little, as you noted. Second, suppose (as you did) the bolt strikes edge-on rather than point-on. The total energy is still a function of MV2. The mass remained the same, and the V is a lot lower, which means the total energy is a lot lower (and even directly striking a bone, standard crossbow bolts lack the impact energy to shatter a bone; they aren't modern high-velocity firearms). Next, the ability to penetrate is a function of total energy / impact area. Striking edge-on, the impact area is a lot bigger, and as noted earlier, the total energy is a lot lower, so it is unlikely to penetrate. Finally, ballistics tests have shown that even bullets once believed to be designed to tumble (such as the AK-47's hollow point rounds) don't. No bullet tumbles just like that, and all bullets tumble exactly once (a single 180° turn) when subjected to a single obstacle, such as thick paper.

What about tumbling bullets? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFMQSdJXyF4#t=3m30s)

Well for one thing aren't you talking about breaking bones in flesh that are strong? What about skeletons where the bones are empty and they have no spongy flesh?

There ARE instances, but by no means would I design a tumbling crossbow bolt, especially in modern warfare. You could probably knock someone out with a tumbling bolt couldn't you?

[DEMON]

Are the club, dagger and quarterstaff not simple weapons in PF?

They are simple weapons. It may not be written the best way, so let me rephrase it.
Weapon proficiency: melee: club, dagger, quarterstaff; ranged: all simple, all martial, one exotic.


Haha...what? Shouldn't this be a per/day thing? I mean, a sorcerer can only cast it six times a day, not including bonus spells. And you mentioned it was non-spellcasting, right? I mean, I can grasp it as a Supernatural ability, extraordinary ability maybe, but cut it down to a certain amount per day. Then again, maybe it's just me.

I´m of the opinion that it´s just you. But then again, maybe I´m the only one who thinks it´s an alright class feature. I consider it more of a skill and concentration on the shot. It´s a first level spell on a level 18 character and the idea of a per encounter ability was derived from ToB maneuvers (learned by non-martial adept classes). And how many encounters do you encounter (hmm... interesting choice of words :) ) in a single day?

And to compare with aforementioned sorcerer: He can cast it 6+bonus spells times, which increases the quantity a lot. Not to mention he can cast it more times in a single ancounter plus he has other 1st level spells AND 2nd-9th level spells and has an unlimited number of cantrips to cast all day long... so from this point of view I really don´t believe it´s in any way overpowered.

[ex cathedra]

I think that the Mighty Pull feature should... do more, or at least scale faster. At some point, I really think that it should just cause any composite bow you wield to automatically scale its damage to your Strength bonus, perhaps with a bonus of like +2 at 4, +4 at 8, +6 at 12, and so on?

[DracoDei]

Non-PF cross reference: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152550