"Character changes gender"

[WarKitty]

I know "character changes gender" is listed as one of the possible effects of cursed items. I was wondering however what process a character would go through if they wished to intentionally change gender (either permanently or not). Is there even a spell for that?

Edit: I really am looking for permanent, or at least long-term. Something that could be reliably obtained and used to maintain a full-time opposite-gender presentation.

[drengnikrafe]

I feel like that was a 2E spell. Alternatively, you could homebrew a...
Why does a character want to change genders?

[oxybe]

in 3.5? the various spells of the polymorph line can do it for a varying amount of time, with polymorph any object being a permanant change.

[WarKitty]

I feel like that was a 2E spell. Alternatively, you could homebrew a...
Why does a character want to change genders?

Character is transsexual.

[gallagher]

a really good disguise check?

[drengnikrafe]

Character is transsexual.

My mind weeps for this a little bit. On the other hand, it's certainly interesting.

[Desril]

I think the BoEF has it as a 5th level spell.

[Snake-Aes]

It doesn't say anything about HOW they do that on the cursed items area, does it? Just fluff it however you want. It can be an instantaneous effect, it can be a slow change over the days...

[WarKitty]

My mind weeps for this a little bit. On the other hand, it's certainly interesting.

Why? I'm not trying to play it for shock value or whatever. It's just, well, I found roleplaying games are a good way to explore questions of sexuality, so why not gender identity as well? I think our playing group is open-minded and mature enough to handle it.

[TooManyBadgers]

Alter Self?

[Alaris]

If you're looking for intentional, and permanent, take a look at the wonderful book in the very back of the D&D 3.5 library.

Book of Erotic Fantasies.

3rd Level Wiz/Sor, 2nd Level Clr, and 1st Level Img Spell: REVERSE GENDER

Instantly reverses your physical gender, on the spot. Lasts 1 hour per level, and is compatible with Permanency. Thus, you can solve your problem easily.

[drengnikrafe]

Why? I'm not trying to play it for shock value or whatever. It's just, well, I found roleplaying games are a good way to explore questions of sexuality, so why not gender identity as well? I think our playing group is open-minded and mature enough to handle it.

I imagine you're probably right. It's just... whenever somebody brings forward something of that caliber, something that never occured to me, or something that just blows my mind I overreact.
However, now I'm calmed down and it seems like an idea as good as any.

[Xallace]

I would be interested in a dialogue between a transgender character and a changeling. I think that would be potentially very intriguing roleplay.

[Sir_Elderberry]

If BoEF isn't available, polymorph/alter self ought to do the job.

[Snake-Aes]

I would be interested in a dialogue between a transgender character and a changeling. I think that would be potentially very intriguing roleplay.

Aside from the characteristic "but honey, i'm a shapeshifter, it's not like we nev-NOTHELPING" dialogue?


"Maybe now you'd like to try *whisper whisper* now that your gender is no longer the issue?"

[Xallace]

Aside from the characteristic "but honey, i'm a shapeshifter, it's not like we nev-NOTHELPING" dialogue?


"Maybe now you'd like to try *whisper whisper* now that your gender is no longer the issue?"

Y-yes... aside from that one. Although it wouldn't be D&D if either of those conversations didn't crop up somewhere. :smallbiggrin:

I just feel like changelings ought to have very different notions of gender and sexuality than humans.

[Snake-Aes]

They're bound to. They can pick genders at will. They can pick being genderless. They can pick both at the same time, just about every human taboo crumbles under the power of "doing it for a change"

[fryplink]

"doing it for a change"

Was that intentional?

Anyway, can alter self be used with permanency? Would an illusion work, or do the parts have to be.... functional?

[WarKitty]

Was that intentional?

Anyway, can alter self be used with permanency? Would an illusion work, or do the parts have to be.... functional?

Fionntan would probably prefer functional, but would take an illusion if needed.

[arrowhen]

Alter Self isn't on the Permanency list. You could research a permanent version of it; my gut instinct is that it'd be somewhere around 4th or 5th level, maybe?

Alternately, since gender changing is an effect of curse items, what about Bestow Curse? It lets the caster invent their own curses, provided they're not more powerful than the effects given in the spell's description (-6 to one ability score; -4 to attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks; or a 50% chance each round of doing nothing instead of whatever you meant to do) -- which in mechanical terms, at least, even an unwanted gender change isn't.

[Xallace]

Fionntan would probably prefer functional, but would take an illusion if needed.

Your character might start off using illusions, but make it a life goal to find a wizard willing and able to cast a PAO for their benefit. Could make for some good hooks.

[Cealocanth]

Well, I'm not enough of a 3.5 player to know what spells would do it, but I assume it'd be very traumatic for those active and experiencing the situation occur instead of being in a coma through it.

Instead of an instantanious change, they pick it up off of a cursed item like a dormant disease. Several days pass and the hormones slowly begin to switch. A character that fights the transformation only gets it worse. They then begin to change body shape, starting with minor things like hair, then slowly increasing to major changes. One night they wake up and their clothes no longer fit. A few says later they discover that they've changed gender completely.
A curse would be traumatic, of course, but a polymorph would be instantanious, although temoprary.

[WarKitty]

Well, I'm not enough of a 3.5 player to know what spells would do it, but I assume it'd be very traumatic for those active and experiencing the situation occur instead of being in a coma through it.

Instead of an instantanious change, they pick it up off of a cursed item like a dormant disease. Several days pass and the hormones slowly begin to switch. A character that fights the transformation only gets it worse. They then begin to change body shape, starting with minor things like hair, then slowly increasing to major changes. One night they wake up and their clothes no longer fit. A few says later they discover that they've changed gender completely.
A curse would be traumatic, of course, but a polymorph would be instantanious, although temoprary.

The point here though is that the character is actively seeking out a gender change.

[Cealocanth]

The point here though is that the character is actively seeking out a gender change.

Ahh. Then I'm sure you can pay a crazy wizard to do it. Do it to yourself by perscription consumption of a potion, or somehow, get a genie or some other wish granting beast to do it.

[chaosgirl]

I know "character changes gender" is listed as one of the possible effects of cursed items. I was wondering however what process a character would go through if they wished to intentionally change gender (either permanently or not). Is there even a spell for that?

Edit: I really am looking for permanent, or at least long-term. Something that could be reliably obtained and used to maintain a full-time opposite-gender presentation.

I would have a problem with some one getting something they want from a cursed item.

I know very little about gender study and such, but if the default "Woman trapped in a mans body" is an adequate description, then I would say that a CURSED belt would trap the character in to the body they do not want.

I'm in the crowd that agrees that for a long term, permanent change, go for wish

[WarKitty]

I would have a problem with some one getting something they want from a cursed item.

I know very little about gender study and such, but if the default "Woman trapped in a mans body" is an adequate description, then I would say that a CURSED belt would trap the character in to the body they do not want.

I'm in the crowd that agrees that for a long term, permanent change, go for wish

Other way round, but we'll go with that description as a practical matter. And yeah it does seem that a curse would be odd, at least as coming from bestow curse...although I could see an argument for obtaining it from a "cursed" item, there are enough curses listed already that might be desirable to certain characters in certain situations, but are still considered cursed items because most characters won't want them.

[Cursedblessing]

{Scrubbed}

[WarKitty]

{Scrubbed}

*blink blink*

Remind me not to click on your links around my parents.

[chaosgirl]

although I could see an argument for obtaining it from a "cursed" item, there are enough curses listed already that might be desirable to certain characters in certain situations, but are still considered cursed items because most characters won't want them.

I can only speak for what would happen in my game. Cursed items always do things that victim dislikes, as cursed items hate good and neutral characters for not being evil, and hate evil characters because they're competition.

[WarKitty]

I can only speak for what would happen in my game. Cursed items always do things that victim dislikes, as cursed items hate good and neutral characters for not being evil, and hate evil characters because they're competition.

By RAW most cursed items are unintelligent, meaning they would have no understanding of what the particular victim likes or dislikes. At least when I DM cursed items function in pretty much the same way as any other magic item, in that they have a specific function that they always perform when the conditions are met. The only difference is that cursed items have generally negative effects rather than positive ones. Then again I love the moments when my players whip out a "cursed" item to solve a specific situation.

[chaosgirl]

By RAW most cursed items are unintelligent, meaning they would have no understanding of what the particular victim likes or dislikes.

True. I wouldn't say there "intelligent" in my world in a traditional manner, more that evil (and good) both have some sort of over all hive mind. Cursed things exist to add to the suffering in the world.

Neutral may have an hive-mind, but it doesn't care

Then again this may be related to

The only difference is that cursed items have generally negative effects rather than positive ones. Then again I love the moments when my players whip out a "cursed" item to solve a specific situation.

The people I play with are used to playing utter monsters, who's basic M.O. when presented with a problem is to kill puppies.

Teaching them that they can use more evil to fix there problems will just reinforce there behavior.

[Ormur]

My advice would be to consult your DM. He can determine how your character can achieve it as a part of a quest that ties into the plot. Of course the ideas here can serve as a guideline for him. That seems more appropriate for a role-playing game where you want to explore the issue than declaring during the first session "I visit the local wizard for an (appropriate spell), now my issues of gender identity are solved, shall we go on?"

It could be a sort of modern version of the The Wizard of Oz where you're not seeing him for a brain but a new gender.

[Reluctance]

At its simplest level, Alter Self allows short-term gender changing. If you're playing around with gender and sexuality ideas, casting a low level spell is much simpler and faster than an extended regimen of hormones and surgery. The short duration is a downside, as is the ability for it to be dispelled, but it would still be a godsend for anybody who wants to spend time in their "real" body.

Polymorph line spells extend the duration significantly, with the drawback that they're still dispellable. This creates an area that the DM will have to walk carefully in. There are plenty of people in the real world who enjoy tweaking others' sense of sexuality. The DM will have to send the message "there exist douchey casters who will throw dispels at you for kicks" (real-world transpeople have to put up with people like this from time to time), without having it come across as "I'm throwing dispel-happy spellcasters at you for my douchey kicks".

Changing your sex as an instant rather than permanent effect? I'd say it should take either a specially made ritual, or a (limited) wish. While powerwise it's first or second level at most, especially if you limit it to only target the caster, there's not much of a story to a character who resolves their issue with a single casting of a low-level spell.

[Shpadoinkle]

See, there's a difference between gender and sex.

Sex, at the most basic, bare-bones level, is defined by which set of bits you have. A lot of mental, emotional, and social luggage comes with this.

Gender (when used in a conversation also regarding one's sex), is defined by which sex you identify yourself as, and isn't linked to what's between your legs.

So characters affected by cursed items that change thier gender don't undergo any physicl changes, just menatl ones. Although, unless the curse is lifted the character may very well seek to change thier sex after being affected by the curse.

Somehow I don't think that's what the designers had in mind when they wrote that entry, though. They probably meant "character changes sex." Comes down to RAW vs. RAI I guess.

Personally, I'd go with the RAI version, because messing with a PC's mind tends to be un-fun. It takes control away from the player.

Whee, pedantry.

[Tiki Snakes]

I thought this was going to be a thread about characters who changed gender. Oh well. Yeah, polymorph any object should do it, surely?

I heartily endorse the character concept, also. I've only tried similar once or twice, but I feel it's a very interesting element to add to a character. Especially depending on the setting.

For example, given how eugenics-ishly straight the Star Trek setting is, I took it as a moral obligation to play a Cross-Dressing Cardassian when we gave the Trek rp a go. He was an Anthropologist who enjoyed the concept of non gender normative behavior and found people's reactions facinating.
That's what he'd admit to, anyway. Sometimes it's just nice to wear something a bit elegant.

I also had a Drow who had some interesting stuff happen mid-game. There was some suggestion that either some faction/s of his political enemies in the home-city were trying to imply that he had lost all favour with Lolth, or he'd possibly gotting into direct trouble with the Queen of Spiders.

So he strode into the newly-rediscovered and incredibly sacred temple in his own stronghold and laid out in detail what he actually believed about lolth and Drow society in general. It would either mean he'd be killed on the spot, or remove any nagging uncertainty to his religious standing and allow him to continue confidently with his plans.

There was no obvious response, but when he left the room, it was pointed out that he was no longer he. Unexpected Reward was Unexpected.

[WarKitty]

See, there's a difference between gender and sex.

Sex, at the most basic, bare-bones level, is defined by which set of bits you have. A lot of mental, emotional, and social luggage comes with this.

Gender (when used in a conversation also regarding one's sex), is defined by which sex you identify yourself as, and isn't linked to what's between your legs.

So characters affected by cursed items that change thier gender don't undergo any physicl changes, just menatl ones. Although, unless the curse is lifted the character may very well seek to change ther sex after being affected by the curse.

Somehow I don't think that's what the designers had in mind when they wrote that entry, though. They probably meant "character changes sex." Comes down to RAW vs. RAI I guess.

Personally, I'd go with the RAI version, because messing with a PC's mind tends to be un-fun. It takes control away from the player.

Whee, pedantry.

Yeah, I was presuming the designers meant "sex." Didn't want to get into all the gender vs. sex stuff on here in case of political derailment. But yes you are correct.


At its simplest level, Alter Self allows short-term gender changing. If you're playing around with gender and sexuality ideas, casting a low level spell is much simpler and faster than an extended regimen of hormones and surgery. The short duration is a downside, as is the ability for it to be dispelled, but it would still be a godsend for anybody who wants to spend time in their "real" body.

Polymorph line spells extend the duration significantly, with the drawback that they're still dispellable. This creates an area that the DM will have to walk carefully in. There are plenty of people in the real world who enjoy tweaking others' sense of sexuality. The DM will have to send the message "there exist douchey casters who will throw dispels at you for kicks" (real-world transpeople have to put up with people like this from time to time), without having it come across as "I'm throwing dispel-happy spellcasters at you for my douchey kicks".

Changing your sex as an instant rather than permanent effect? I'd say it should take either a specially made ritual, or a (limited) wish. While powerwise it's first or second level at most, especially if you limit it to only target the caster, there's not much of a story to a character who resolves their issue with a single casting of a low-level spell.

Interesting...while I was thinking longterm, a world in which changing your sex was an easy, painless process might also be interesting.

[Snake-Aes]

It's still somewhat restricted, though. Even a first-level spell costs a few years' worth of a peasant's work, so it'll be rather restricted to the cities' top classes and nobility.

[WarKitty]

It's still somewhat restricted, though. Even a first-level spell costs a few years' worth of a peasant's work, so it'll be rather restricted to the cities' top classes and nobility.

Well yes...but if the nobility could change their sex at will, what would the effect be on high society?

[Yora]

A good reason to go adventuring.

What about a magic item that puts the wearer under a continous alter self effect? Would be 12.000 gp, but that's not really that expensive for a magic item. For 24.000 gp you could make it an item that takes no item space, like a tatoo, which makes it pretty much permanent.

Advantage over PAO would be, that you only have to find a 3rd level arcane spellcaster with the craft wondrous item feat, instead of a 15th level arcane spellcaster who is willing to cast PAO on you.

[ZeroGear]

Then again I love the moments when my players whip out a "cursed" item to solve a specific situation.

You mean something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0233.html), and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html)?

[WarKitty]

You mean something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0233.html), and this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html)?

Yes, indeed.

[ZeroGear]

Yes, indeed.

Just try to make sure this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0244.html) does not happen to you.

[WarKitty]

Just try to make sure this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0244.html) does not happen to you.

Meh, I've had worse in RL.

[Mando Knight]

What about a magic item that puts the wearer under a continous alter self effect? Would be 12.000 gp, but that's not really that expensive for a magic item. For 24.000 gp you could make it an item that takes no item space, like a tatoo, which makes it pretty much permanent.
This is what immediately came to mind for me, a continuous Alter Self magic item. Which has the added advantage of being able to shapeshift into any other form within the bounds of Alter Self.

However, the cost for a continuous, rather than use-activated, slotted item of Alter Self would be 18000 gp, not 12000, as Alter Self has a duration of 10 min/level. The difference between the two is that one allows you to shapeshift for 30 minutes at a time all day (thus turning you back into whatever every 30 minutes), while the other allows you to remain in the disguise for as long as you've got the item on.

For a perpetual Alter Self effect, slotless would be preferred (costing 36000 gp), but barring that, a ring of Alter Self would be next-best, being half as expensive and fairly easy to wear all the time while only robbing you of a single ring slot.

There's also the silly route: a command-word 1-charge/day Persisted Alter Self. Being a level 8 spell, it's cheaper just to use Polymorph Any Object.

[Havelock]

Re-incarnate does the trick, but it's slightly random, unsure if the higher level versions do something about that.

Great fun when our sorcerer returned as female, heh.

Wish/Miracle will obviously fix it, but introducing a Wizard spell that can do something like that shouldn't be an issue, research can always be done into the subject.

[Rutskarn]

If you need a gender change yesterday, and you're desperate as all hell...there's a place you can go. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a)

I'm surprised as anyone that that link is worksafe.

[chiasaur11]

If you need a gender change yesterday, and you're desperate as all hell...there's a place you can go. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a)

I'm surprised as anyone that that link is worksafe.

Also can change legal status. Convenient.

From living to deceased, natch.

[Otodetu]

Limited wish is the lowest level i can see a un-dispellable gender change happen.

Half the fun of gender swap is the long trek towards it, right?

[StoryKeeper]

Hehe. I can actually see an intelligent cursed item of gender change being a hillarious NPC for this. A belt of masculinity/femininity 'weeping' with happiness as it says, "Y-you mean you like wearing me? You really really like wearing me?!"

Also, would a hat of disguise do the trick?

[Halae]

Personally, I've always been a fan of the Reverse Gender spell from Book of Erotic Fantasy. Sure, the book's third party, but it'sd balanced and has many interesting things that could be put into non-sex related campaigns

Anyways, yeah, the permanency for Reverse Gender is probably the easiest way to do it, though it would be kind of interesting to watch a character struggle with choosing between the gender he/she wants and the spells he'll need to survive, at least until permanency comes along. that is, if your a spellcaster.
Hehe. I can actually see an intelligent cursed item of gender change being a hillarious NPC for this. A belt of masculinity/femininity 'weeping' with happiness as it says, "Y-you mean you like wearing me? You really really like wearing me?!"

Also, would a hat of disguise do the trick?I must admit, that would not only be awesome, it would immediately create a deep npc character for the players to interact with

and illusions, already stated, are the second choice to being "functional"

[Riffington]

A Curse is a Curse, but here's the most fun way I'd use it:
Suppose you have a female character whose body appears male, and who wished to fix this problem (so she puts on the Cursed Belt).
Her body finally becomes the woman she always knew she was. But, being cursed, she feels wrong in it - as if she were now the wrong gender.
Damn, does this confuse everyone else - outwardly, she got exactly what she wanted/needed. But the belt reversed everything - form as well as identity.

Limited Wish is the way to go.


Whee, pedantry.
Nope, not pedantry. To be a pedant you have to be old-school, follow the fuddy-duddy rules, and insist that gender refers to pronouns whereas sex refers to people. The new social science academic definitions you give are super useful but aren't "correct usage" yet, so you'll have to wait a couple decades to be a pedant.