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View Full Version : [3.5] Idea for Magical Theme: Everyone is Special But You



Xefas
2010-08-05, 09:10 PM
Musing over the idea of running a (heavily modified) E6 game with the Armor as Damage Reduction variant from Unearthed Arcana and possibly also the Defense Variant.

While considering various themes to put into the setting, I thought about Wizards, and how I'm not terribly enthused about them at all. Thematically speaking, they seem sort of out of place in the D&D cosmology as a whole. That got my head spinning with ideas.

You have these tiny short-lived mortal races, surrounded by far older, wiser, and (supposedly) more powerful Dragons, Giants, Fey, etc with ties to their own sorts of magic. But, really, they're just small fries when you move out a little to the Inner Planes where immortal beings of pure energy that are responsible for holding together the physical fabric of the Prime Material plane reside. And they, too, are just insects before the Outsiders of the Outer Planes that dictate the fundamental cosmic forces of the Multiverse.

And yet, say, a Human, one of the tiniest most pathetically minuscule creatures in the Multiverse can use the same basic mechanics for controlling magic as a Dragon, or a Primordial Elemental, or a Pit Fiend, or Asmodeus himself. It's no more difficult for a human to access the strange and mystical than it is for the incarnation of an omnipresent cosmological force to.

I'm not going to argue if that's a good thing or not, or if that's "D&D" or not, or whatever. The fact is that I want to change that a bit for my setting. I'd like any access to magic by a basic humanoid to be mostly by proxy through a much more powerful source.

My question is twofold. One, what sorts of classes/mechanics/etc should I use to represent this. Two, I wouldn't mind just whatever thoughts anyone has about this idea. Any holes you see, or awesome ideas for implications of this to the game world.

So far, I've got this for classes:

Sorcerer - They're basically tiny fleshy balloons filled to the brim with Draconic magic, waiting to bust. Their mortal frames were not meant to hold such power that their blood grants them. The mechanics I plan to use for this are instability while casting, and a sort of "venting", wherein you need to keep up casting regularly throughout the day to keep from overflowing. "Overflowing" possibly being a euphemism for "charbroiling everyone around you".

Warlock - They essentially beg for magic from fiends or dark gods. They forfeit their souls and become unwitting (or possibly witting) harbingers for their master's will in the mortal realm. The mechanics I plan to use for this are "soul reaping" wherein you can damn the souls of things you slay or newly dead creatures to trade to your master for power, and an "Accruing Damnation" wherein the more you use your powers, your body begins to warp into progressively more evil and disturbing forms, dealing all sorts of horrible debuffs and ability damages to you, but also giving you more power in the process (whether you want the power or not).

Binder - They have forged a link with the powers that Man Was Not Meant to Know. Spurning Gods, Demons, and everything else, they go beyond time and space and warp their body and minds to become vessels for Vestiges. The mechanic is simple. You are (presumably) sane. The more Vestiges you bind, the more often you bind them, the more power you ask of them, and the more you use said power slowly tears at your sanity, causing you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do.

Druids - Becoming attuned to the rhythm of the natural world, Druids learn to meld themselves with nature, taking on animalistic, botanical, or fey forms. Nature, however, is a powerful entity at harmony with itself, and a Druid that spends too much time in that harmony finds it difficult to leave. The more a Druid stalks the jungle as a Lion, the more the urge to simply cast off the worries of a human life grows. The mechanic is that Druids because more and more animal-like or plant-like or fey-like in their human form the more they shapeshift, to the point where, if they abuse their power enough, they may not have a human form to go back to at all.

Paladin - The opposites of Warlock. They humbly ask for their power from celestials or the more righteous deities. The mechanic is that the more power they ask for, the stricter their "code" becomes, the harsher the punishment is when they break it, and the more arduous the atonement must be.

You'll notice that they all have downsides to using their 'magic', and the emphasis is on them being pieces in a far larger tapestry. My plan is to have all available classes have some sort of cost and danger associated with it, but also to give everyone the option of "Well, this isn't important enough to me to risk my immortal soul, instead of calling on Orcus to solve my problem for me, I'll pick up this sword and do it myself."

There may also be a "Mundane" class that does all the sorts of Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian/etc things. It'd be weak and unimpressive, but doesn't have to worry about morals, or demons, or spontaneously combustion. Stronger than the magic classes when they aren't using their powers, but woefully falls short otherwise.

If my gaming group likes the idea, and the work gets done, everything'll be posted in the Homebrew forum.

Viskocity
2010-08-05, 09:35 PM
So basically you are going to split the party into 'guys who do the important, interesting stuff' and 'guys who carry the rest of the party on their backs'. Why would anyone intentionally choose to play the slow and steady class, knowing that their party members can just step in any time they feel like it to make their efforts pointless? It seems to me that this is a very self defeating system of balance. It does, in fact, further encourage the 15 minute adventuring day. Unless people intentionally choose to gimp themselves, most of them will have to deal with the drawbacks of their power. Whenever this happens, you can bet that the rest of the group is going to take a break until the sorcerer regains spells/ stops writhing on the floor in agony.

Escheton
2010-08-05, 09:48 PM
I like it. It makes playing a rogue hella fun. You are powered by your lack of morals and rob, backstab and use the little godpuppets in your party. Untill they burn out and you hire some new saps with a lust for glory and fortune.

Now, what is your position on incorporating Tome of Battle classes in this?

Xefas
2010-08-05, 09:54 PM
So basically you are going to split the party into 'guys who do the important, interesting stuff' and 'guys who carry the rest of the party on their backs'. Why would anyone intentionally choose to play the slow and steady class, knowing that their party members can just step in any time they feel like it to make their efforts pointless?

That's exactly the point. Their characters face the exact same choice. Imagine, if you will, you are a human peasant. Orcs are on the way to raid your village. You can either A) train with a sword to become a moderately effective swordsman. Maybe take down a few Orcs before they off you, but know that it was your own hard work that did it, or B) profane the powers of light, damn your soul, become invested with incredible power and save everyone you know and love.

Ideally, the players shouldn't *want* to play the mundane guys. That's the point. They should *want* power, but at what cost? (dun dun duuuh)


It seems to me that this is a very self defeating system of balance. It does, in fact, further encourage the 15 minute adventuring day. Unless people intentionally choose to gimp themselves, most of them will have to deal with the drawbacks of their power. Whenever this happens, you can bet that the rest of the group is going to take a break until the sorcerer regains spells/ stops writhing on the floor in agony.

And when they stop for the Sorcerer who decided to not worry about the unstable magic he was throwing around and blew off his arm while going nova against a few kobolds, what happens then? The game world doesn't stop when the PCs decide to sleep. They could be put into real danger (or something they care about) because of the Sorcerer's recklessness, so maybe he'll learn a life lesson and not abuse his power so much next time. He'll reign it in a bit and only push himself to the extreme when something is truly worth the danger.

EDIT:

I like it. It makes playing a rogue hella fun. You are powered by your lack of morals and rob, backstab and use the little godpuppets in your party. Untill they burn out and you hire some new saps with a lust for glory and fortune.

Now, what is your position on incorporating Tome of Battle classes in this?

I like the way you think, good sir. I may incorporate some Tome of Battle-ish mechanics for the mundane class(es).

Tyndmyr
2010-08-05, 10:00 PM
Sure, you might not consider it a problem, but downsides to magic have actually been explored in d&d. Consider the old haste for example. Game design has evolved away from it precisely because of the problems it creates.

You balance arguments are also lacking. Noob wizard human does not in fact deal with magic in the same way dieties do. See dieties and demigods for more info.

Xefas
2010-08-05, 10:09 PM
Sure, you might not consider it a problem, but downsides to magic have actually been explored in d&d. Consider the old haste for example. Game design has evolved away from it precisely because of the problems it creates.

"Game Design" has not evolved away from it. "D&D" has evolved away from it. There are plenty of other game systems out there that do things differently than D&D, and many of them are fun. I don't recall what "Old haste" did, but I doubt its in the same vein as what I'm trying to do. That was one spell. This is an entire setting based on the concept.


You balance arguments are also lacking. Noob wizard human does not in fact deal with magic in the same way dieties do. See dieties and demigods for more info.

I'm not arguing for balance. Balance is not my goal. Interesting roleplaying opportunity and mechanics that reflect the themes of the setting are my goal. Standard D&D is too divorced between mechanics and fluff *in my opinion.*

Demons_eye
2010-08-05, 10:24 PM
As a player I would not like it unless I could just do what you suggest. Let magic build up so I can cast it more powerfully or bind more then the allotted vestige in exchange for insanity. I would expect to wildshape at will or to gain half celestial and saint if it meant to sneeze I need to fill out paper work in triplicate.

Escheton
2010-08-05, 10:53 PM
As a player I would not like it unless I could just do what you suggest. Let magic build up so I can cast it more powerfully or bind more then the allotted vestige in exchange for insanity. I would expect to wildshape at will or to gain half celestial and saint if it meant to sneeze I need to fill out paper work in triplicate.

On that note: It is a fun roleplaying angle but is prone to munchkin abuse.

Fayd
2010-08-05, 10:57 PM
The old haste aged the... caster? Recipient? ... by one year.

Demons_eye
2010-08-05, 11:02 PM
On that note: It is a fun roleplaying angle but is prone to munchkin abuse.

I would not see it as such if the drawback for using that power balances the benefit. I would think twice of using wildshape if after two hours I would be stuck in the form.

Escheton
2010-08-05, 11:13 PM
Yeah, but thats a crunch downside. The insanity can be downplayed by a dedicated munchkin. Especially if the dm is not good at imagining how npc's would react to such a person. Though seeing it's only used by 1 dm, and he is designing the setting it should be fine.

Demons_eye
2010-08-05, 11:20 PM
Yeah, but thats a crunch downside. The insanity can be downplayed by a dedicated munchkin. Especially if the dm is not good at imagining how npc's would react to such a person. Though seeing it's only used by 1 dm, and he is designing the setting it should be fine.

You could show it mechanically as wisdom damage or you must constantly at under the confusion spell.

Cespenar
2010-08-06, 12:21 AM
I like the ideas. You should try them at a game and return to tell how it went.

togapika
2010-08-06, 01:46 AM
I'd be interested in playing a paladin in a game like this...

icefractal
2010-08-06, 01:47 AM
It could be interesting, but it should be noted that it's really more like a "theme" for magic than a cost. Progressive insanity/freakishness is only a problem if you didn't want to be a crazy demon of doom. Even things that are unambigiously penalties fall flat to the "expendable" method:

1) Live fast (use your powers as often as you feel like)
2) Die young
3) Leave a beautiful corpse Roll a new character, then repeat

Tyndmyr
2010-08-06, 02:10 AM
Of course, there's also the taint mechanic, which added a lovely theme to magic, added a nice power/problems tradeoffs for characters and was completely balanced.

Sounds about like what you're looking for.

Escheton
2010-08-06, 02:17 AM
Of course, there's also the taint mechanic, which added a lovely theme to magic, added a nice power/problems tradeoffs for characters and was completely balanced.

Sounds about like what you're looking for.

LOL!
Actually, barring the prestigeclasses its actually decent.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-06, 02:35 AM
It's an interesting idea, but it suffers from the same basic problem as flaws. Trading power for weaknesses is inherently vulnerable to optimization. Tying this to spells, probably the most powerful in game options, was also questionable.

Of course, one has to question their sanity, when they make possibly the most powerful PrC in game, but "balance" it by forcing you to make a save or...keep taking more levels of it. Someone must have been cackling manically as he designed that.

ZeroGear
2010-08-06, 02:47 AM
The concept is interresting, but you are just begging for other problems.

With the sorcerers: The player is just as likely to blow himself up and make a new character than stop. Turning him into a walking landmine is just begging for himto charge into the middle of an orc camp and go boom.

Warlock: Not all the power of warlocks comes from evil. Even if it did, why would he risk his neck and soul if he could just slaughter the village that hired him instead of defending it against the orcs, offer up all threir souls, then just blow the orcs to kingdom come.

Binder: Loss of sanity encourages abuse using the "I can't help it, my character is just insane" excuse to justify killing a king and his wife, or anything else along those lines.

Druid: if I could give upmy form to be an animal, and still cast spells, I would do it. Almost every druid takes the natural spell feat, and fw enemies would expect a bear with a charged claw attack coming their way. It gets worse if the players have acces to the daggerspell shaper class as it leads to permanent enchanted natural attacks.

Paladin: Stricter codes lead to people becomming bigger ***holes than most paladin players already are (with a number of notable exceptions). People who can play a paladin properly are rare, and most would use this rule as fodder to justify lecturing individuals about everything and their mother.

If you canfigure out a way around these problems, the go and use the concept, because it does sound interresting. Just be aware of conciquences.

Xefas
2010-08-06, 04:17 AM
I'm kind of...taken aback? Aghast? Bewildered?

In your own groups, do you actually have to worry about "Well, this one thing is more powerful, and all it has is a roleplaying requirement, so this player is just going to exploit it for more power and ignore the roleplaying"?

Or worry about "Well, this thing is inherently dangerous, so this player is just going to use it, kill his character, and make a new one like nothing ever happened"?

Do you actually take into consideration "Well, this'll just leave the whole thing open to optimization for my players! Can't have that!"

Or similar?

I...can't even imagine playing with people like that. What's the point? So you exploited a mechanic in an entirely imaginary game knowing full well it wasn't supposed to be used that way. Why?

The players and DM are supposed to be friends, right? And be working together to have fun? I can't imagine worrying about them trying to sneak things past me for an extra d6. I can't imagine them even caring in the first place. We're here to have fun and tell a good story. Whether you did 5d6 damage or 7d6 damage isn't interesting.

A heartwrenching story of a man having to choose between his own humanity and the lives of those he cares about is interesting. A valiant story of a knight who forsook what made him happy so he could make a difference in a world where good men, more often than not, do nothing is interesting. A creepy story of a man driven to the brink of insanity so that he could learn the truth - the honest to god truth of life is interesting.

Why is intentionally eschewing the intentions of the system, and the expectations of your friends so you can be slightly better at combat interesting?

EDIT: To answer ZeroGear


The concept is interresting, but you are just begging for other problems.

With the sorcerers: The player is just as likely to blow himself up and make a new character than stop. Turning him into a walking landmine is just begging for himto charge into the middle of an orc camp and go boom.

Warlock: Not all the power of warlocks comes from evil. Even if it did, why would he risk his neck and soul if he could just slaughter the village that hired him instead of defending it against the orcs, offer up all threir souls, then just blow the orcs to kingdom come.

Binder: Loss of sanity encourages abuse using the "I can't help it, my character is just insane" excuse to justify killing a king and his wife, or anything else along those lines.

Druid: if I could give upmy form to be an animal, and still cast spells, I would do it. Almost every druid takes the natural spell feat, and fw enemies would expect a bear with a charged claw attack coming their way. It gets worse if the players have acces to the daggerspell shaper class as it leads to permanent enchanted natural attacks.

Paladin: Stricter codes lead to people becomming bigger ***holes than most paladin players already are (with a number of notable exceptions). People who can play a paladin properly are rare, and most would use this rule as fodder to justify lecturing individuals about everything and their mother.

If you canfigure out a way around these problems, the go and use the concept, because it does sound interresting. Just be aware of conciquences.

Ask your friend playing the Sorcerer why he's kamikazeing, and risking certain death. Does he have a reason? Few men would put themselves at such risk for anything, much less on a whim.

Ask your friend playing the Binder to please not use character justification to ruin everyone else's good time when he could just as easily do something else.

Ask your friend playing the Druid if his character would really be up for losing his humanity so easily? Once he's an animal with animal intelligence, he's probably going to give up all the things he cares about. Is it worth it?

Ask your friend playing the Paladin not to be an *******? It's common decency. Tell him that he's making everything not fun for everyone else and if he's actually your friend, then he'll stop.

Ranos
2010-08-06, 04:40 AM
Where do magic items fit in that setting ?

Xefas
2010-08-06, 04:52 AM
Where do magic items fit in that setting ?

Well, it's E6 already, so you'd only be getting up to minor magic items anyway, so I planned to just cut them out for the most part.

Magic items will be something that can't intentionally be made by mortals. Dragons might be able to imbue items with their essence, Astral Devas could probably bless something into becoming a minor magic item.

Magic items made by mortals are all creations of circumstance. A Paladin that sacrifices himself to hold back a demonic horde long enough for the cavalry to arrive and save a town of innocents might imbue his armor into becoming a magic item. Like +1 and with a constant Protection from Evil effect on the wearer.

A Warlock that bathes a blade in the blood of 10,000 innocents might get himself an Unholy Longsword or something.

The idea is they can't be made intentionally. They're rewards for badassery.

hamishspence
2010-08-06, 04:54 AM
Sounds a lot like the concept behind Legacy Items (Weapons of Legacy).

Xefas
2010-08-06, 05:02 AM
Sounds a lot like the concept behind Legacy Items (Weapons of Legacy).

Definitely. That book was an amazing idea. Its execution, less so. But, flavor-wise, it's always how I've viewed magic items should be.

The old "Well, +4 Greatsword...we've had some good times together. You helped me conquer that island of flesheating feral kobolds. You were with me when we slayed that Lich who was about to turn every verdant forest in the world to ashes. I used you to decapitate that scion of Tiamat who was going to overrun the world with her half-demon dragonspawns. But...well, this is a +4 Flaming Keen Greatsword. I mean...maybe if it were just a +4 Flaming Greatsword...but Keen! I can't pass that up. Plus I'll get like...10k for you at the magic mart while we pawn those 35 +1 Longswords we got from those Drow..."

It gets...dissatisfying.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-06, 05:03 AM
Ask your friend playing the Sorcerer why he's kamikazeing, and risking certain death. Does he have a reason? Few men would put themselves at such risk for anything, much less on a whim.

I suspect that if he didn't have a reason to risk death, he wouldn't be an adventurer. Any plausible character has objectives he's willing to take some risk for, because adventuring is inherently risky. Plenty of characters would even die for their goals. The system of taking risk for increased gains is a pretty common one in RPGs.

As for optimization...it's not always intentional. Pretty big power differences can exist just by virtue of players choosing wildly different classes, or by having very different levels of experience playing the game. Adding more possible power differences merely increases the possible imbalance.

Plenty of magic items exist in E6. Gods still exist, and thats where artifacts come from. Any generic crafting caster can craft wonderous items, rings, wands, and scrolls. Any artificer can go up to CL 8 in making these same items. With shenanigans or rituals, much higher is possible, but that's already a very diverse batch of magic items.

Xefas
2010-08-06, 05:09 AM
I suspect that if he didn't have a reason to risk death, he wouldn't be an adventurer. Any plausible character has objectives he's willing to take some risk for, because adventuring is inherently risky. Plenty of characters would even die for their goals. The system of taking risk for increased gains is a pretty common one in RPGs.

This is absolutely true. However, what ZeroGear was saying was not "This Sorcerer has a plausible reason to risk his own life and is making a calculated decision based on improving the suspense and developing his character's depth." He was saying "Well, why doesn't everyone just keep killing their Sorcerers and making new ones every session?"


As for optimization...it's not always intentional. Pretty big power differences can exist just by virtue of players choosing wildly different classes, or by having very different levels of experience playing the game. Adding more possible power differences merely increases the possible imbalance.

Once again, this is absolutely true. Except, what was being spoken of was not "Imbalance inherent in the system's design" which I'm fine with a small degree of. What was being spoken of is "Why doesn't everyone just specifically attempt to exploit the rules to gain power?" which I'm...dumbfounded by.


Plenty of magic items exist in E6. Gods still exist, and thats where artifacts come from. Any generic crafting caster can craft wonderous items, rings, wands, and scrolls. Any artificer can go up to CL 8 in making these same items. With shenanigans or rituals, much higher is possible, but that's already a very diverse batch of magic items.

True, though I think, for this setting, I'm going to be doing away with mortal crafting just as a feature of the setting itself.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-06, 05:15 AM
This is absolutely true. However, what ZeroGear was saying was not "This Sorcerer has a plausible reason to risk his own life and is making a calculated decision based on improving the suspense and developing his character's depth." He was saying "Well, why doesn't everyone just keep killing their Sorcerers and making new ones every session?"

This actually happened back in the day. If you got a horrible stat roll, suiciding was often the best choice. I agree that it's generally undesirable for roleplaying, and thus, systems that encourage it are generally bad. It's one of the reasons I prefer point buys or roll systems with some choice over 3d6 per stat, in order.


Once again, this is absolutely true. Except, what was being spoken of was not "Imbalance inherent in the system's design" which I'm fine with a small degree of. What was being spoken of is "Why doesn't everyone just specifically attempt to exploit the rules to gain power?" which I'm...dumbfounded by.

Well...not everyone does. But some systems attract abuse like chocolate attracts women. For instance, I can't think of a single example in which a sarruk's ability granting or taint has been used in any manner describable as reasonable. I grant that in theory, they could be, but the brokenness is so obviously abusable that it tends to be used for that.


True, though I think, for this setting, I'm going to be doing away with mortal crafting just as a feature of the setting itself.

Your call. I was mostly just objecting to the idea that E6 was short on magic. It's a common misconception. :smallbiggrin:

Xefas
2010-08-06, 05:25 AM
This actually happened back in the day. If you got a horrible stat roll, suiciding was often the best choice. I agree that it's generally undesirable for roleplaying, and thus, systems that encourage it are generally bad. It's one of the reasons I prefer point buys or roll systems with some choice over 3d6 per stat, in order.

Well...not everyone does. But some systems attract abuse like chocolate attracts women. For instance, I can't think of a single example in which a sarruk's ability granting or taint has been used in any manner describable as reasonable. I grant that in theory, they could be, but the brokenness is so obviously abusable that it tends to be used for that.

Your call. I was mostly just objecting to the idea that E6 was short on magic. It's a common misconception. :smallbiggrin:

Well, I agree with everything you just said.

However, I plan for my homebrew to be slightly better handled, and at least more upfront about its expectations, than Taint or the Sarruhk.

Although, I feel that if I wanted to a run a game with Taint as a mechanic, and said to my players "Hey, y'know, this Taint business is easy to throw off mechanically if you try, but I think it can be used as a nice backdrop for a horror game, so please moderate yourselves accordingly and be careful that everyone is having fun with it and sticking to the expectations of the tone of the game" that we would be able to.

And with that, it's 5:30am, and I'm going to bed for a bit.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-06, 05:39 AM
Cursed midnight shifts...I've still got a ways to go.

Did some more detail purusing.

Sorc disadvantage ain't too bad. Strikes me as fitting the recharge magic variant very closely. Given the amount of spell slots they get, not a significant factor in vancian, unless of course, they wanna explode.

Warlock. Significant downside for a T3 class. I do like the idea of evil pacts for power and such. I suggest that as an alternative method, you consider it as a deal to provide souls for whatever evil being granted him his power. If he fails to do so for long enough, the bad things happen, as the displeased power takes it's toll on him. Changes the dynamic to a constant need to feed the demonic monkey on your back, which should be interesting for non-evil characters.

Binder: Look at alienist. Pretty much what you're doing here.

Druids: One of the better tradeoffs. It encourages balance, which is very nature-like, and mechanically, it isn't crippling. It also makes sense on an intuitive level.

Paladin: Most troublesome. Their code is already problematic, and making it stricter and stricter is...I dunno. It invariably leads to falling or party problems. Not sure I have a good solution, though.

snikrept
2010-08-06, 05:40 AM
What about cleric? Those guys are already tiny pawns who ask deities for favors every day. Maybe make it more of a quid pro quo - they have to prove that they've done the Divine Will satisfactorily the previous day or they don't get spells today. Or perhaps they have to sacrifice something on their altar that's really valuable or hard to obtain to get the spells.

Or maybe they don't get a spells/day at all, but prayers/day, and each time they want some divine intervention (i.e. cast anything) they have to sit down and take some time to pray to their deity, who might or might not be listening at that moment and might or might not be ANGRY at the request for help and make the situation worse instead of better. Dice roll based on their level / stats / number of times they've asked for help recently, maybe. Basically give em spell failure and spell backfire chances that scale up quickly with frequency of casting.

EDIT also, I really liked the system they had in the old World Of Darkness games for Mage characters who used too much magic - bending reality too much eventually caused Paradox to build up, and the Mage's own personal reality to become warped, eventually causing insanity or worse. I could see an argument for having a Wizard class in this universe you describe, that operated on such rules.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-06, 05:41 AM
I always thought commune was a terribly presumptious spell...

Escheton
2010-08-06, 09:30 AM
Well, not everyone can be a cleric.
And your god already proclaimed to be a friend, or at least listening
Why not be "that guy" and ask for way too much. And do things that breach comfortzones. Such as being all chumsy and casting commune.

ZeroGear
2010-08-06, 09:38 AM
This is absolutely true. However, what ZeroGear was saying was not "This Sorcerer has a plausible reason to risk his own life and is making a calculated decision based on improving the suspense and developing his character's depth." He was saying "Well, why doesn't everyone just keep killing their Sorcerers and making new ones every session?"


You have never played with munchkins, have you?

On a separate note, a number of players I have been with generrally didn't look at the classes for flavor. The took a look and saw how much damage they could deal in one turn.
I will admit I was pointing out the ways in which big flaws exist in the system, but I had no intention of saying that everyone is like that.

Your idea is a cool concept, and would be awesome if handled properly. But I've seen numerous players who do something REALLY stupid just to get a good laugh. I have also seen numerous sadistic players who relish in the thought of being evil, and the system of magic is a blade that cuts both ways.

Here's a rare, but still possible, example:
Picture the PC's have subdued an evil sorceror. Instead of killing him, they decide to wait for a little bit, thenuse a catapult to launch him into a nearby town. He blows up, because he can't cast any spells while bound, gagged, amd blinded, and there goes the town.

Another case:
The paladin has accidentally told of the king for ruling his city a certain way, because of the code that binds him, and gets the rest of the group in trouble. At some point, a number of people I know would have aquired so many restrictions that they break one, loose all their powers, and thinks: "screw it, I'm going blackguard!"

As I said earlyer, the whole idea sounds cool, and would make for interresting roleplaying oppotunities, but you nust be aware that sone people, friends or not, are jsut inborn jerks who ness up the game so everyone can have a good laugh.

If and when you use this idea, I hope it goes off without a hitch.

Xefas
2010-08-06, 02:23 PM
Sorc disadvantage ain't too bad. Strikes me as fitting the recharge magic variant very closely. Given the amount of spell slots they get, not a significant factor in vancian, unless of course, they wanna explode.

Warlock. Significant downside for a T3 class. I do like the idea of evil pacts for power and such. I suggest that as an alternative method, you consider it as a deal to provide souls for whatever evil being granted him his power. If he fails to do so for long enough, the bad things happen, as the displeased power takes it's toll on him. Changes the dynamic to a constant need to feed the demonic monkey on your back, which should be interesting for non-evil characters.

Binder: Look at alienist. Pretty much what you're doing here.

Druids: One of the better tradeoffs. It encourages balance, which is very nature-like, and mechanically, it isn't crippling. It also makes sense on an intuitive level.

Paladin: Most troublesome. Their code is already problematic, and making it stricter and stricter is...I dunno. It invariably leads to falling or party problems. Not sure I have a good solution, though.

For Sorcerers, I was hoping to do something similar to the Spell Seeds mechanic that epic spells have, rather than spell slots. The idea being that, as time goes on, your seeds are stronger/easier to use, but more dangerous. (Ex. you slap together...say, a "Fire" seed and "Barrier" seed to make a fire-wall. But, you haven't cast anything in the past 2 hours because you were at a fancy dress party to get in good with the king. Well...now the fire wall is bigger and more impressive than you intended. Much bigger. And thicker. And oh god I think I just lit those houses on fire.)

I really like your idea for Warlock. I'm like 85% done with the class, but now I have an urge to scrap the whole thing and go more with what you said.

Alienist is...kind of similar to the flavor I want. Alienists are just instilled with a 'generic' insanity, but I want a very specific Vestige-themed insanity for Binders. Amon might give you horrible paranoia of Paladins and other devout worshipers of the Good deities, whereas Leraje might give you a crippling inferiority complex.

Paladins would basically start with no code to speak of. Then, for example, they ask their deity for healing powers. The deity asks what they're willing to do to prove they deserve those healing powers.

If the Paladin promises to, at the lowest end, always tend to severely wounded innocent people when the Paladin is not otherwise engaged in something else, they get some minor healing abilities. If the Paladin promises to always go out of his way, even at risk to himself and expenditure of his resources, to heal any non-evil person suffering from disease or wounds, then he gets some pretty good healing powers. If the Paladin promises to heal anyone who is suffering, be they friend or foe, good or evil, (exempting Undead and Demons) and make it their goal to alleviate all suffering in the world, then they get badass healing powers.

If the Paladin is in a party where it would cause a problem to always insist on healing their downed enemies and try to redeem them rather than kill them, then its the player's obligation to not make his code that strict.

If they break their code for a specific set of abilities, they don't "fall". They simple lose those abilities granted by that part of their code, and have to atone to their deity to get them back (and probably at a reduced level to begin with).


What about cleric?
Basically, in this setting, Warlock = Evil Cleric, Paladin = Good Cleric.

"Paladin" in this case does not mean "Heavily Armored Guy With a Big Sword And Minor Spellcasting Abilities", it means "Holy Man With an Honor Code" who might have a diverse set of powers ranging from Heavily Armored Guy With a Big Sword to kindly old priest man who sits in the back and puts bandaids on everyone when they skin their knee.



You have never played with munchkins, have you?

Yes, I have. And my group basically asked "Hey, you're making the game less fun for all of us, could you lighten up a bit?" and his answer was, essentially, "no", so we just don't play with him anymore. Simple as that. If someone is making the game less fun for everyone else, just don't play with them.


Picture the PC's have subdued an evil sorceror. Instead of killing him, they decide to wait for a little bit, thenuse a catapult to launch him into a nearby town. He blows up, because he can't cast any spells while bound, gagged, amd blinded, and there goes the town.

This idea is hilarious and awesome and I hope to god my players think of it.

Ranos
2010-08-06, 02:50 PM
Multiclassing as a sorcerer/warlock/eldricht theurge in that game would be hilarious :smallbiggrin:

Kylarra
2010-08-06, 02:56 PM
I think the concept is pretty interesting, gamable probably, but that can be said for base 3.X anyway.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-06, 04:00 PM
You have these tiny short-lived mortal races, surrounded by far older, wiser, and (supposedly) more powerful Dragons, Giants, Fey, etc with ties to their own sorts of magic. But, really, they're just small fries when you move out a little to the Inner Planes where immortal beings of pure energy that are responsible for holding together the physical fabric of the Prime Material plane reside. And they, too, are just insects before the Outsiders of the Outer Planes that dictate the fundamental cosmic forces of the Multiverse.


And yet, say, a Human, one of the tiniest most pathetically minuscule creatures in the Multiverse can use the same basic mechanics for controlling magic as a Dragon, or a Primordial Elemental, or a Pit Fiend, or Asmodeus himself. It's no more difficult for a human to access the strange and mystical than it is for the incarnation of an omnipresent cosmological force to.

Actually, it is easier for a human. Remember humans do what takes Dragons, Demons, fey, etc Eons (9th lv spells) by 40 years at most for humanity (less for PC classes). Yep, took that Dragon 1000 years minimum what humans did in a fraction.

Two ways you can look at this:
Humans have more potential than any other races (meaning they are special after all) or something is holding back the other races (why do dragons stagnate so much?).

Zovc
2010-08-06, 04:08 PM
Many of your ideas have been mechanically represented already, more or less:


Sorcerer - They're basically tiny fleshy balloons filled to the brim with Draconic magic, waiting to bust. Their mortal frames were not meant to hold such power that their blood grants them. The mechanics I plan to use for this are instability while casting, and a sort of "venting", wherein you need to keep up casting regularly throughout the day to keep from overflowing. "Overflowing" possibly being a euphemism for "charbroiling everyone around you".

Check out the Wilder's mechanics, or perhaps even the Wild Mage.


Warlock - They essentially beg for magic from fiends or dark gods. They forfeit their souls and become unwitting (or possibly witting) harbingers for their master's will in the mortal realm. The mechanics I plan to use for this are "soul reaping" wherein you can damn the souls of things you slay or newly dead creatures to trade to your master for power, and an "Accruing Damnation" wherein the more you use your powers, your body begins to warp into progressively more evil and disturbing forms, dealing all sorts of horrible debuffs and ability damages to you, but also giving you more power in the process (whether you want the power or not).

Hellfire Warlock


Paladin - The opposites of Warlock. They humbly ask for their power from celestials or the more righteous deities. The mechanic is that the more power they ask for, the stricter their "code" becomes, the harsher the punishment is when they break it, and the more arduous the atonement must be.

Fax's Mantled Paladin. The more levels you get, the more mantles you get. Each mantle has a code you need to follow in order to keep it.

Xefas
2010-08-06, 04:21 PM
Many of your ideas have been mechanically represented already, more or less:

In the case of the first two; mechanically represented extremely poorly and by prestige classes that can't be fully used in E6 (Wilder is a base class, but with psionics which, while I liked psionics, I don't want to use them for this setting).

In the case of Fax's paladin, that's all well and good. Good premise, good execution. Not *exactly* what I'm looking for.

Zovc
2010-08-06, 05:31 PM
I was more pointing to them mechanically, so that you could maybe adapt their mechanics--not give you E6 characters levels in Wilder or Hellfire Warlock.