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Scarey Nerd
2010-08-06, 07:08 AM
How many class levels would a vampire have if I wanted to make it a CR5 encounter? I seem to recall the answer being 3, but I would appreciate verification from those with greater knowledge than my own :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2010-08-06, 07:47 AM
It is- vampires have a CR adjustment of +2, so a CR 5 vampire will have 3 character levels.

However, how that vampire came into being may be a bit problematic- since normal vampires produce only vampire spawn if they blood-drain a character of less than 5 Hit Dice.

Scarey Nerd
2010-08-06, 07:49 AM
It is- vampires have a CR adjustment of +2, so a CR 5 vampire will have 3 character levels.

However, how that vampire came into being may be a bit problematic- since normal vampires produce only vampire spawn if they blood-drain a character of less than 5th level.

Hmm, point taken. Perhaps I shall leave this particular idea for a later time. Thank you! :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2010-08-06, 07:51 AM
You could probably do it anyway- by casting Create Greater Undead on a 3 Hit Dice dead humanoid/monstrous humanoid.

Edit- apparently not. Maybe there's some other way.

If you want a more exotic creature, the Monstrous Vampire template in Ghostwalk, or the Vampiric Dragon template in Draconomicon, might do.

Runestar
2010-08-06, 09:59 PM
It is theoretically possible, since vampire can be applied to humanoids and monstrous humanoids. So you simply need a cr3 creature with 5 or more HD.

For example, using the non-associated class rules, a gnoll cleric3 would be cr3, applying vampire template makes it cr5.

A kobold warrior4 or adept4 would be cr1, add another class lv to make it cr2 (and 5 class lvs), qualifying it for vampire as well (and the lowest, I believe, at cr4).

Defiant
2010-08-06, 10:03 PM
This is so stupid.

CR of +2
LA of +8

Savannah
2010-08-06, 11:26 PM
But LA only applies if the vampire is a PC. The CR adjustment is for an NPC. Or did you mean something else? Just saying it's stupid makes it hard for me to understand what you mean.

Zaydos
2010-08-06, 11:29 PM
I think he's saying it's stupid for an increase in power equivalent to 2 CR to cost a player 8 levels. And the reason is probably the create spawn ability that is highly abusable. Even so having so much LA that a CR appropriate cleric opponent can automatically make you run screaming unless you invest a feat into it, and then still has a better than 50% chance to do so, is a tad ridiculous.

Raistlin1040
2010-08-06, 11:30 PM
A 5th level Vampire Fighter is a CR 7. That means 1 level 7 character could be expected to fight him one on one and win half the time. A 5th level Vampire Fighter PC is ECL 13. Either the LA is waaaaaaaay too high or the CR is waaaaaaaay too low. Have them fight each other and see what happens. The CR 7 is going to win just as often as the ECL 13. That does not make sense.

Savannah
2010-08-06, 11:35 PM
Fair enough. It's been a long day; the only thing I could figure out was that he was saying that the answers that had been given were stupid.

Jarveiyan
2010-08-07, 12:17 AM
Why not just use a vampire spawn? Yes its cr4 instead of 5, but will a cr difference of 1 really make a difference?

Scarey Nerd
2010-08-07, 12:18 AM
Why not just use a vampire spawn? Yes its cr4 instead of 5, but will a cr difference of 1 really make a difference?

The reason I want to use a Vampire rather than Spawn is that I will have already used Spawn earlier in the session, and this is for a more challenging battle. However, I think I'm going to leave it for a later date when the PCs are stronger.

Urpriest
2010-08-07, 12:18 AM
Why not just use a vampire spawn? Yes its cr4 instead of 5, but will a cr difference of 1 really make a difference?

Lack of class levels? Though you could probably stack a few class levels on to a Vampire Spawn and still have it end up CR 5 if they're nonassociated.

Jarveiyan
2010-08-07, 12:21 AM
Okay, good answer. My bad.

Scarey Nerd
2010-08-07, 12:23 AM
Okay, good answer. My bad.

Not your bad at all, it was a reasonable thing to ask. My plan was something along the lines of, "Spawn in city, why are they there, Duergar are helping a fairly weak Vampire."

My party has been through a lot of DMs in the past year, and the last one, whilst good, made us heroes rather than adventurers, if you know what I mean, so I've been barraged with requests for stereotypes :smalltongue:

Mojo_Rat
2010-08-07, 12:25 AM
Make your vampire a NPC class and then slap the vampire template on top of him..

i think a Level 6 warrior with the Vampire template wouldbe CR 5. not sure how the Cr bit with NPC classes works with Templates.

either way as a level 6 warrior he'll hit like a hammer :)

Runestar
2010-08-07, 06:42 AM
I think he's saying it's stupid for an increase in power equivalent to 2 CR to cost a player 8 levels. And the reason is probably the create spawn ability that is highly abusable. Even so having so much LA that a CR appropriate cleric opponent can automatically make you run screaming unless you invest a feat into it, and then still has a better than 50% chance to do so, is a tad ridiculous.

I think it is more that the vampire has so many powers that it is highly unlikely he will get to use them all within the few rounds he interacts with the PCs. Only the undead traits, stat boosts and possibly energy drain are of any real use, the rest are simply filler - you won't use them because they consume precious actions better devoted to more devastating attacks.

As a player, I am fairly sure I can find some way to abuse his dominate and create spawn ability. :smallbiggrin:

Aroka
2010-08-07, 06:53 AM
A 5th level Vampire Fighter is a CR 7. That means 1 level 7 character could be expected to fight him one on one and win half the time. A 5th level Vampire Fighter PC is ECL 13. Either the LA is waaaaaaaay too high or the CR is waaaaaaaay too low. Have them fight each other and see what happens. The CR 7 is going to win just as often as the ECL 13. That does not make sense.

Abilities have wildly different values for PCs and NPCs/monsters. Fast healing/regeneration, any kind of immortality (like vampires have), and creating spawn are all kind of overpowered for PCs, at least until the spellcasters can achieve them.

Mojo_Rat: A level 6 warrior is CR 5 (CR is level -1 if the NPC has NPC classes). CR 5 + 2 is CR 7.

Defiant
2010-08-07, 08:37 AM
I think he's saying it's stupid for an increase in power equivalent to 2 CR to cost a player 8 levels. And the reason is probably the create spawn ability that is highly abusable. Even so having so much LA that a CR appropriate cleric opponent can automatically make you run screaming unless you invest a feat into it, and then still has a better than 50% chance to do so, is a tad ridiculous.

For the record, this is correct, and what I was trying to say.