Bad Fathers

[Bongos]

We've been introduced to what, 3 of the OoTS's fathers, Haley's, Roy's and now Elan's. All the humans. And each one of them is less than an ideal role model.

1. The selfish and neglecting mage.
2. The non trusting, deceptive and suspicious rogue.
3. The evil warlord.

I wonder what Freud would have to say?

[NerfTW]

There is no indication that Haley's father is in any way a bad father, simply because he doesn't open up to complete strangers on the street.

As for Elan's father, we also haven't seen any indication that he's a bad father, simply a lawful evil father. In fact, we see that he's a loving father in the flashback (baby on board sign) and he is as far as we know trying to make Elan happy.


Until the sudden and inevitable betrayal, of course.

I'm not seeing it just yet.

[Bongos]

Well Haley's father did teach her to just lie to everybody and not to trust anyone, which probably paved the way for her emotional obstacles regarding her love life, and now he's in prison, probably for committing a crime, which is putting further duress upon his daughter's psyche and relatrionships, but hey, think whatever you want.

The foreshadowing on Tarquin is like watching one of those tropical storms in the gulf slowly build into a category 4 hurricane, it's gonna hit, just a matter of when and where....

[BadAndyMk3]

Haley's father taught her not to trust anyone. Haley seems to think he was a good role model. KNow when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.

Roy has a bad relationship with his father, but Roy's father seems to have a bad relationship with everyone close to him. And Roy chose to emulate his Grandfather and Great-grandfather.

Elan's dad seems to genuinely like him, and from what I can tell he cared for Nale as well until Nale's betrayal.

[thepsyker]

Well Haley's father did teach her to just lie to everybody, and now he's in prison, probably for committing a crime, but hey, think whatever you want.
Considering where they lived teaching her not to be forthcoming with information on herself was probably a good thing. Also seeing as how whoever is holding him prisoner is demanding a ransom it doesn't necessarily follow that they are holding him as punishment for some crime.

[Kurald Galain]

I think that Belkar's father was a very kind, charitable, and loving man. Nobody understood why he was found one morning with dagger holes all through his body...

[Dr.Epic]

2. The non trusting, deceptive and suspicious rogue.

Look at where they lived. If I am correct, you're basing this on panels 8-9 of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html). He was being stern with her, something parents are supposed to do and he was being strict to protect her. Besides, he must have cared about Haley enough to get her in the thieve's guild (it secured her work and made sure she wouldn't be the target of the guild while working in it).

[Bongos]

yeah, I don't know if raising someone to be a thief is so great, even in that city. Seems like Haley has had her fair share of problems because of it, but different strokes. Haley herself mentions she almost lost her chance to be with Elan because of her father's teachings.

I'm not saying these guys don't care for their children. V cares for his elflings, but he's still a self admittedly crappy father as well.

But then again they can't all be bakers cooking tasty elven patties in the forest. If they were who'd be around to stop Xykon? Unless he has a weakness for danishes we have yet to discover.

[derfenrirwolv]

2. The non trusting, deceptive and suspicious rogue.


I think that raising your child any other way in graysky city would constitute child abuse.



I wonder what Freud would have to say?

That no parents are perfect and there will always be issues.

[Marnath]

yeah, I don't know if raising someone to be a thief is so great, even in that city. Seems like Haley has had her fair share of problems because of it, but different strokes. Haley herself mentions she almost lost her chance to be with Elan because of her father's teachings.

I'm not saying these guys don't care for their children. V cares for his elflings, but he's still a self admittedly crappy father as well.
But then again they can't all be bakers cooking tasty elven patties in the forest. If they were who'd be around to stop Xykon? Unless he has a weakness for danishes we have yet to discover.

You mean self admitted crappy parent. V doesn't make any mention what gender he is. That's why we still have debates. At least those kids have their other father though, elan didn't have a dad at all. And Roy and haley's dads not being very pleasant doesn't make them bad fathers.

[NerfTW]

Well Haley's father did teach her to just lie to everybody and not to trust anyone, which probably paved the way for her emotional obstacles regarding her love life, and now he's in prison, probably for committing a crime, which is putting further duress upon his daughter's psyche and relatrionships, but hey, think whatever you want.


Yeah, Haley's dad should have just left the thieves guild when she was born, risking being murdered by assassins and leaving Haley an orphan or to be kidnapped and forced into the guild without his guiding influence to keep her on the "goodish" side of things.

Everyone always has the ability to simply flee a bad area and start life anew with no strings attached and no job skills in a different city. :smallsigh:

Again, you can't place all the blame on Haley's dad when the city itself is run by the guild and he's stuck there.

Haley made the decision not to trust her companions, and that's nobody's fault but Haley's.

[MonkeyBusiness]

Wow ... awesome thread, fantastic discussion!

Given what information we have (not much) and the impressions I have received (subjective) I'd say that Eugene Greenhilt and Tarquin are crappy dads, but that Haley's Dad seems to be a good father.

There are many reasons why Eugene and Tarquin make lousy fathers, but to me there is one primary one: their focus was not on raising their children to be as independent and self-capable as possible. In fact, I see that both dads raised their kids with a selfish ulterior motive.

Eugene wanted Roy to fufill the Blood Oath and on the way do so by being as much like Eugene as possible so he could live vicariously through him. If Roy became a wizard like his dad, and used magic to fufill the Blood Oath, then it would "prove" that Eugene's inability to fufill the oath himself was not Eugene's fault ... just bad luck.

Tarquin's selfishness is more all-purpose: no-one denies him what he wants. Ironically, he raised Nale perfectly in this regard: Nale grew up learning that "value" and adopted it himself - evidently the cause of their duel and disaffection.

Basically, both used fatherhood to serve their own egos and purposes.

As far as I can tell, Haley's dad did not do this. He seemed to take his role as a father seriously, because he taught Haley to think for herself and to rely on herself ... not skills selfish dads support! Others on this thread have already pointed out that teaching Haley not to share personal information was probably as good lesson in Greysky City.

I don't know where Haley's insecurities came from, but I'd say anyone - particularly a young woman who lost a beloved parent early in life - would be susceptible to that, no matter how caring the surviving parent is. But whether or not that is the cause, I agree with Nerf that choosing to be so distrustful was Haley's choice, ultimately. She might have learned the skill from her father, but she learned other things from him that countered that.

I'd say that one personal flaw that rises from an otherwise good skill set does not mean Haley's dad was a bad father. In fact, that she's survived so long
and become the person she is is a tribute to his care.

That Roy and Elan have survived so long and turned out to be basically good people we can attribute to their wonderful mothers.

[JonestheSpy]

Actually, I've been thinking for awhile that missing father figures are a big theme in this strip. Some of them are physically missing, some psychologically, and somehow finding or coming to peace with said father figures is a primary motivation for the characters. In addition to the obvious trio of Elan, Roy, and Haley, there's:

Durkon: Though his actual Dad is never mentioned, his whole make-up is about patriarchal lines and stability. He was exiled by his spiritual father the High Priest of Thor, and his biggest desire is to go back to the land of his fathers. He doesn't even care that he won't get back til he's dead - that he'll be laid in the same tomb with his male ancestors is enough to make him happy.

Varsuvius: V is unique because V is the absent parent figure ('father' being not apllicable in this case), first through thoughtless neglect, then by conscious choice to shield the family from harm. It will be interesting to see if V is ever reunited with mate and children when it's all over, assuming V survives.

Belkar: We know nothing about his parents, but pretty much all his character growth has been through his interactions with wise old man Shojo (a traditional father-figure archetype). Shojo is the only person Belkar has shown any real respect for, and the change in his character has come from his Shojo-starring vision and his affection for Shojo's cat.

Very little about mothers or maternal figures. Interesting that Roy idealizes his never-met-in-life paternal grandfather in the face of his dad's general jerkheadedness.

[LuPuWei]

Heck even the MitD doesn't have many memories of his father. I'm sure that has some sort of abandonment (or abduction) background (I haven't actually read SoD) Like Shojo for Belkar, then, O-Chul is the surrogate...

[TheMac04]

I can totally see Belkar's parents as the type of people who were kind and loving to everyone, but just had a horrible child and went crazy trying to keep him under control. I bet they were bards too.

[Aaluran]

Tarquin's selfishness is more all-purpose: no-one denies him what he wants. Ironically, he raised Nale perfectly in this regard: Nale grew up learning that "value" and adopted it himself - evidently the cause of their duel and disaffection. I agree with everything in your post except the above.

That is somewhat of a non-argument - How does no-one denying him what he wants (which I'm not so sure is a given) translate into bad parenting?

[NerfTW]

I'm really not sure we can call Tarquin a "bad" parent. Nale turned on him because he didn't see a reason to let the idiot dragon (and let's face it, the empress of blood is an idiot) take all the credit for him and his father's hard work. If anything, he was taught to stand up for himself.

Even in Dorukon's dungeon, he attacked Elan because as good guys the Order would try to stop him. He's now intent on killing Elan for stopping him, but I wouldn't call that "bad" parenting on Tarquin's part. He's evil, so he taught his son that killing someone who stands in his way is acceptable.

If anything, he equipped Nale with the skills he needed to be an evil adversary leading his own team. We've been told directly in strip that his tendency to make ridiculous plots to deal with simple situations is from his mother's side.

[Lecan]

yeah, I don't know if raising someone to be a thief is so great, even in that city. Seems like Haley has had her fair share of problems because of it, but different strokes. Haley herself mentions she almost lost her chance to be with Elan because of her father's teachings.


Being a Thief in OotSworld is not the same as being a thief in our world. It's a valid choice and you can still be a Good-aligned Thief (just not Lawful).

Haley says that she took her father's teachings too far which is why she almost lost the chance to be with Elan, not because of the teachings themselves.

Someone else wrote that Ian Starshine is in jail because he committed a crime. While he probably did (head of the Thieves' Guild and all), that's not why he's in jail. Bozzok tipped someone on the Western Continent off and they sent him something to make him leave. I sincerely doubt a warrant for his arrest made him turn himself in.

[MonkeyBusiness]

I agree with everything in your post except the above.

That is somewhat of a non-argument - How does no-one denying him what he wants (which I'm not so sure is a given) translate into bad parenting?


For the same reason why Darth Vader is not typically considered a good parent. "Join me or die" is not the basis for a loving father-son relationship. We've seen how Nale responded when Elan "denied" him, and there are hints that Tarquin shares that perspective. If that is the case, then Tarquin is a Bad Dad.

Any parent who repeatedly tries to control the decisions of his grown offspring's decisions and makes compliance a prerequisite for having a relationship is a bad parent. "No-one denies me" can translate into very little besides being a lousy father ... or a lousy husband ... or a lousy brother ...

I realize that we don't have the full picture on Tarquin yet, and that the Giant may surprise us (as he so often does). But this is my impression given the information we have so far.

.

[Aaluran]

For the same reason why Darth Vader is not typically considered a good parent. "Join me or die" is not the basis for a loving father-son relationship. We've seen how Nale responded when Elan "denied" him, and there are hints that Tarquin shares that perspective. If that is the case, then Tarquin is a Bad Dad.

Any parent who repeatedly tries to control the decisions of his grown offspring's decisions and makes compliance a prerequisite for having a relationship is a bad parent. "No-one denies me" can translate into very little besides being a lousy father ... or a lousy husband ... or a lousy brother ...

I realize that we don't have the full picture on Tarquin yet, and that the Giant may surprise us (as he so often does). But this is my impression given the information we have so far.

.Okay, but where exactly does he say "join me or die" to Elan?

As for his relationship with Nale, Nale decided to go against everyone to get even more personal power. I mean, it's not very fatherly to fight him, but I see it as more the son turning on his father than the reverse.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, but where exactly does he say "join me or die" to Elan?

He says "join me" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html). The "or die" was implicit.

[thepsyker]

He says "join me" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html). The "or die" was implicit.I think he was talking about Tarquin with that bit, i.e. when did Tarquin say join me or die.

[NerfTW]

He says "join me" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html). The "or die" was implicit.

Uh, where?

[squidbreath]

Uh, where?

Nale tells Elan that "you and I can leave here and start a new team. Elan refuses. 2 strips later Nale stabs Elan in the back.:smallfrown:

...but that's not Tarquin.

[Thanatosia]

Just to throw a little extra on this observation:

Both Xykon and Redcloak by all information available to us in SoD had loving and supporting parents.

[JonestheSpy]

Just to throw a little extra on this observation:

Both Xykon and Redcloak by all information available to us in SoD had loving and supporting parents.

Well, Xykon obviously was rather psycho to begin with, but it's worth noting that the catalyst for Xykon becoming a real villain was his meeting with Professor Xavius, another archetypal father-mentor figure, who unfortunately was a pompous jerk who declared he was inherently superior to Xykon because the boy was just a lowly sorcerer. One can imagine that if Xavius had handled things better, praising Xykon's abilties and fluffing his ego a bit, events might have gone quite differently. So, another absent father figure pushing a character on his path there, too.

As for Redcloak, his entire family (and the rest of his village) was massacred before his eyes by the Sapphire Guard. Obviously this is the prime event that set him on his course as an antagonist to the folks who call themselves "good". So yeah, no father or other family, no High Priest to guide him, just the aloof Dark One and his Plan, not enitrely unlike Roy and Eugene.

Heck, as LuPuWei pointed out, one of the only scraps of info we have about the MitD is he had a father (no mention of a mother) that he was separated from. Yet another orphan.

[Ancalagon]

as inherently superior to Xykon because the boy was just a lowly sorcerer. One can imagine that if Xavius had handled things better, praising Xykon's abilties and fluffing his ego a bit, events might have gone quite differently.

Tell that to grandma... no, Xykon was a lost cause from the beginning. All Xavius did was speeding things up by a month or six.

[SPoD]

As for Redcloak, his entire family (and the rest of his village) was massacred before his eyes by the Sapphire Guard. Obviously this is the prime event that set him on his course as an antagonist to the folks who call themselves "good". So yeah, no father or other family, no High Priest to guide him, just the aloof Dark One and his Plan, not enitrely unlike Roy and Eugene.

Interesting side note: Both Julia and Right-Eye grew up in the same situation as their elder sibling except for one crucial detail: they each had an elder sibling to look up to. And as a result, they each turned out pretty much the opposite of their respective older brothers. Julia is selfish where Roy is responsible; Right-Eye was pragmatic where Redcloak is obsessed.

[JonestheSpy]

Tell that to grandma... no, Xykon was a lost cause from the beginning. All Xavius did was speeding things up by a month or six.

I always thought grandma had died of natural causes and he reaminated her the same as his dog - I rather think there would have been a lot more of a fuss if he'd killed her.

Yeah, he might have gone bad in any case, but his encounter with Xavius definitely was the origin of his animosity towards wizards and shaped the path of his career, regardless.

[Nimrod's Son]

Eugene wasn't a bad father; he was a passable father. It even says so on his tombstone. :smallwink:


You mean self admitted crappy parent. V doesn't make any mention what gender he is. That's why we still have debates. At least those kids have their other father though, elan didn't have a dad at all.
You mean "those kids have their other parent". :smalltongue:


Someone else wrote that Ian Starshine is in jail because he committed a crime. While he probably did (head of the Thieves' Guild and all)
Ian was never head of the Thieves' Guild. Bozzok says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) that he took over after the last guildmaster died, and Ian was potential competition to him.

Oh, and since everyone seems to be saying "Xavius", I feel compelled to point out that the professor was actually called Xavion. :smallredface:

[Marnath]

:


You mean "those kids have their other parent". :smalltongue:



Oh, hush with your silly talk, logic man :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Menarker]

Tarquin's selfishness is more all-purpose: no-one denies him what he wants. Ironically, he raised Nale perfectly in this regard: Nale grew up learning that "value" and adopted it himself - evidently the cause of their duel and disaffection.



I agree with everything in your post except the above.

That is somewhat of a non-argument - How does no-one denying him what he wants (which I'm not so sure is a given) translate into bad parenting?


For the same reason why Darth Vader is not typically considered a good parent. "Join me or die" is not the basis for a loving father-son relationship. We've seen how Nale responded when Elan "denied" him, and there are hints that Tarquin shares that perspective. If that is the case, then Tarquin is a Bad Dad.

Any parent who repeatedly tries to control the decisions of his grown offspring's decisions and makes compliance a prerequisite for having a relationship is a bad parent. "No-one denies me" can translate into very little besides being a lousy father ... or a lousy husband ... or a lousy brother ...

I realize that we don't have the full picture on Tarquin yet, and that the Giant may surprise us (as he so often does). But this is my impression given the information we have so far.


Basically, I saw it in the manner that the lessons that Tarquin taught Nale were the sort of lessons that work when used selfishly. As a "life lesson", it works if you intend for your progeny to succeed through being ruthlessness. However, it became a lesson that bit him back when it was directed his way.

With "No one denies me" being the lesson taught, Tarquin basically basically makes it clear that it is best for yourself when you get your way because everyone either accepts anything you do or say, or is unable to fight against your wishes. The element of control which was mentioned before.

Nale learned that a little "too well". Nale desired something that Tarquin would not agree to (To be leader/emperor) and thus his fighting against Tarquin is basically the son lashing out on his father for denying him his wishes. Tarquin in turn is lashing out because his son is denying HIM of his "obligated" sense of respect and obedience that he figure a son should have for his father and teacher (in addition to whatever practical reasons there may be.)

If Tarquin taught his son to be a bit more loving or at least diplomatic, the fight that divided them probably would not have happened because when Nale uses what he learns to guide how he interacts with others, including his father, the results would have been less/no conflict.

However, Tarquin and Nale were living in a country where deposing of new rulers was the norm and where violent conflict was ever present. It probably seemed like a safe bet that teaching how to be ruthless would help someone adapt to this environment. However, that backfired because that ruthlessness is the source of the conflict with both parties share the same method of working out their problems. Through domination whether it be malipulation or power.

[JonestheSpy]

I don't think there's really enough information about Tarquin's relationship with Nale to make any judgment's at this point. Sometimes kids turn out lousy, and it's quite possible that other factors than the brutal environment and Tarquin's parenting corrupted Nale - his close relationship with a demon, for instance.

[the_tick_rules]

Have you seen family sitcoms lately? Dad is the easy target for being a failure.

[Aaluran]

However, Tarquin and Nale were living in a country where deposing of new rulers was the norm and where violent conflict was ever present. It probably seemed like a safe bet that teaching how to be ruthless would help someone adapt to this environment. However, that backfired because that ruthlessness is the source of the conflict with both parties share the same method of working out their problems. Through domination whether it be malipulation or power.
This is sort of my thinking, too. Tarquin did teach his son badly from a purely moral point of view, but that is rarely the only consideration. That his soon took these lessons a little too much to heart, however they may have been necessary or appropriate then and there (like Haley, actually), I don't believe that makes Tarquin a bad parent. In fact, without further information, the only truly bad choice he has made as a father that I can find is that he separated his family in the first place.

[Lecan]

Ian was never head of the Thieves' Guild. Bozzok says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) that he took over after the last guildmaster died, and Ian was potential competition to him.

My mistake :) Still, he probably had broken a law or two.

[Gift Jeraff]

If Tarquin was a good evil parent, he would have just let Nale take the throne and then learn the same way he did about the Western Continent. However, he has the "disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights" gene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html), so instead he tried to kill his own son. At least, that's how I see it. (Of course, we don't know the whole story.)

[137beth]

My mistake :) Still, he probably had broken a law or two.

He's a ROUGE, of COURSE, he has broken laws, and more than two of them.
Living in a city dominated by rouges, it really wasn't terrible parenting to teach Haley to be a thief.


But on top of the bad fathers we have already seen, we know that Hilgya's parents forced her to marry against her will. We don't know anything else about her father, but the one thing we do know isn't very promising.

[Warren Dew]

Haley herself mentions she almost lost her chance to be with Elan because of her father's teachings.

Exactly. Haley ended up neurotic because of the way she was brought up. That in and of itself makes her father a bad father.

And if that's the only way a child can be brought up in Greysky city, that's an argument that responsible people oughtn't have children there, and thus an argument that her father was irresponsible, not that he was a good father.

Similarly for Elan; he ended up a nincompoop, and we now know it wasn't because his mother was stupid. A good father would have prevented Nale from hitting Elan on the head so much. Of course, the way Nale turned out just tends to confirm the idea that their father isn't a good father.

Roy's case argues for the opposite, though. Just as the fact that Haley's and Elan's fathers are likeable does not mean they were good fathers, the fact that Roy's father is not likeable does not mean he was a bad father. Roy turned out quite well - he's certainly the best adjusted protagonist - so I'd say that means his father was a good father.

It's true that Roy's sister ended up a bit self centered, though I don't think we can say she's selfish. Certainly she and Roy seem to have a good sibling relationship, which is another argument that their father was a good father.

[DragonOfUndeath]

so your saying that because Roy was angry at his father who was a selfish CN (I think) wizard and so became a LG pure fighter like his deceased grandad Eugene was a good father???? and Haley admitted she may have taken her fathers teaching too far. also Tarquin was probably out or stopped the head-hitting when he noticed it, but that was too late.

[Inhuman Bot]

I wonder what Freud would have to say?

Something about them wanting to bone each other. :smalltongue:

[DragonOfUndeath]

too true anathon!! too true!! :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Aaluran]

Exactly. Haley ended up neurotic because of the way she was brought up. That in and of itself makes her father a bad father.

And if that's the only way a child can be brought up in Greysky city, that's an argument that responsible people oughtn't have children there, and thus an argument that her father was irresponsible, not that he was a good father.

Similarly for Elan; he ended up a nincompoop, and we now know it wasn't because his mother was stupid. A good father would have prevented Nale from hitting Elan on the head so much. Of course, the way Nale turned out just tends to confirm the idea that their father isn't a good father.

Roy's case argues for the opposite, though. Just as the fact that Haley's and Elan's fathers are likeable does not mean they were good fathers, the fact that Roy's father is not likeable does not mean he was a bad father. Roy turned out quite well - he's certainly the best adjusted protagonist - so I'd say that means his father was a good father.

It's true that Roy's sister ended up a bit self centered, though I don't think we can say she's selfish. Certainly she and Roy seem to have a good sibling relationship, which is another argument that their father was a good father.I question the assumed validity of the statement that children turning out alright automatically means their parents are good parents. As children are not simply the sum of their upbringing and genes (no sentient creature is) they are quite capable of becoming decent people despite their parents' best efforts at the opposite. Incidentally, my example is also Roy.

EDIT: Also, Roy's sister, while certainly not evil, is spoiled and immature (at least to some point) and she has the same father.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I wonder what Freud would have to say?

First: "Rich, every board member, and every character in the comic all secretly harbor an intense desire to initiate intercourse with their matron."

Second: "Pass the cocaine."

Freud is not the first person I'd call up if I needed a healthy second opinion. :smalltongue:

[Aaluran]

First: "Rich, every board member, and every character in the comic all secretly harbor an intense desire to initiate intercourse with their matron."

Second: "Pass the cocaine."

Freud is not the first person I'd call up if I needed a healthy second opinion. :smalltongue:Hey, he was a brilliant psychologist. What he was snorting and the strange, strange things going through his head don't change that (too much).

[devinkowalczyk]

I think freud would say there isn't enough mother time...

He was all about the oedipal/electra stuff.

[Inhuman Bot]

Hey, he was a brilliant psychologist. What he was snorting and the strange, strange things going through his head don't change that (too much).

Freudian psychology is pretty outdated at this point..

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Freud's contribution to psychology was more to the foundations. He was basically responsible for the idea of the unconscious mind affecting one's perceptions and behaviors. His whole oral-anal-genital fixation theme was kind of broken, but he got a little better later on when he wrote Beyond the Pleasure Principle, and his students (like Jung) improved it even further.

Anyway, bluh bluh longpost. Just pick your favorite and read it.

Eugene: F. I do penalize for ineffectiveness.
Eugene made sure his kids all got a good education, and while his clueless absentee style won't make him father of the year, he did manage to maintain a solid moral compass in Roy during the bits when he was around. He didn't really share in his son's interests, but nobody expects their dads to understand pokémon either. A solid B so far.

His first big problem was that he had too much of an ego to allow for his son to have a different style than he did. "If you don't want to be a wizard, that means you don't like me, personally." Points off for that, but Roy turned out to be a great guy in the end, so he must have been doing something right. Let's say it's a C, then.

Wait, what's that? His daughter did want to be a wizard, so he spoiled her rotten to make his son jealous? And said daughter, partially as a result of said spoiling, wound up being neutral instead of lawful good? Well, I can't back him up on technique nor results on that one, but he at least did an okay job on maintaining their overall health and well-being, so he still deserves at least a passing D...

Oh, wait, that's right, he had a third kid that died horribly because he wasn't paying attention. F it is, then. He might still be able to pass the class if he resolves to... oh, nope, he still hold a grudge against Roy for not being a wizard and continues to harp on it even in death. That's dipping into general "bad person" territory right there. F.

Ian: A-. Lower if you really hate thieves.
Ian did a much better job - his family was the one point of light in a sea of darkness, which is much to his credit. He maintained a substantial presence in her life in a system where she'd probably end up like Crystal otherwise. By looking at the results, we can derive that he never really taught her not to hold grudges, but that's about it. 99% is still an A.

There were other little problems, of course. Haley's education boiled down to being an apprentice rogue, but then they weren't in a school district known for producing neurologists. He raised her to be distrusting and cagey, but that makes sense since everybody else really was lying and out to get them.

Ian's rep as a spectacular dad tends to rest on the assumption that the cards were stacked against him. They lived in Greysky, and Greysky was a certain way, so they had to deal with it. The thing is, I'm not so sure that's true. He was a former adventurer, he had money, he could have moved. I don't think anyone would have held it against him if he retired to raise his kid. If anything, most of the guild would have been happy to see him go; Bozzok would have been rid of the competition, and the rest would have had one fewer boy scout raining on their murder parade.

I think that he stayed in Greysky not for Haley's sake, but for the sake of the town itself. If it weren't for his one point of light, the place would be a hopeless abyss. If he didn't rain on the parade, it would spin into a year-round festival extravaganza. If that's the case, it's hard to hold it against him. He could have sent her to a boarding school or something, I guess, but he was certainly up to the challenge of raising her himself, complete with moral compass, so why not? The biggest reason to send her elsewhere would be to prevent her from becoming a shady, paranoid, wound-up, dishonest rogue, but he obviously didn't see anything wrong with that. I would have, but then I'm pretty lawful, so go figure. 90% is still an A.

Tarquin: F. You can't really expect a passing grade for turning out someone like Nale.
Meanwhile, Elan's dad raised Nale. No bonus points for results, but hey, we live in a world where morality is objective sometimes. Maybe he only had so much to work with. Okay, so he purposefully trained him to be ruthless and efficient. Maybe that just means he wanted his kid to be assertive and to-the-point. I can see that.

The thing is, even if we assume that he just wanted his son to be a success, even if keeping Nale off the throne was a matter of justice and better for him in the long run, even if dragging one's child off to war in the desert and away from his sweet mother's arms can be said to be okay... Tarquin never really had Nale's best interests at heart. The dude purposefully never told him about his twin brother for the sake of dramatic tension. These are not good priorities for a parent to have. I mean, teen pregnancy is dramatic. Loneliness is dramatic. Slow and painful death is dramatic.

Plus, when Elan shows up Tarquin copies one of Eugene's shticks and makes a big fuss over him because he shares his interests. Oh, and all of Tarquin's wives these days keep getting murdered mysteriously. Probably to keep him from having more kids. F.

[DragonOfUndeath]

as clearly evidenced in comic (no idea) Nale was evil as a baby. teaching a kid to be assertive (albeit slightly off-key) isn't enough to give him an F. he deserves at least a D+ for recognizing the irrevocable differences between him and Elan's mum and splitting when the kids were young and didn't have an emotional attachment to either one is a good idea. Tarquin being evil of course he is going to bring his child up as an evil person! that shouldn't be held against him because that is assuming Good is better than Evil despite D&D trying to balance the alignments. Nale was brought up in a place were Evil is commonplace and serves people better as an alignment than Good with regard to backstabbers etc. makes raising a Good child hard and condemns the child to either a short life or eternal poverty followed by a short life. Evil on the other hand gives Nale a chance at a life of relative luxury and prestige.

[squidbreath]

Well, at least YikYik (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html)was a good father...

[Kish]

Ian: A-. Lower if you really hate thieves.
Or if your "penalizing for ineffectiveness" notes that his insistence on being "the only point of light in Greysky City" wound up with his daughter in a contract in which she worked for Bozzok and gave him nearly everything she stole, and she was in her twenties before she realized there was a problem with thisfound motivation to leave because Bozzok got Ian imprisoned somewhere, still not realizing there was any problem with her contract (so, apparently, her training included "don't tell anyone your mother died" but didn't include "do a cost-benefit analysis on any contract you sign").

Also, pathologically greedy.

[Scarlet Knight]

I think that Belkar's father was a very kind, charitable, and loving man. Nobody understood why he was found one morning with dagger holes all through his body...

:belkar:...until Momma Bitterleaf won first prize at the Shire Faire for her dish of steaming entrails...

[sirveaux]

As for Elan's father, we also haven't seen any indication that he's a bad father

Are we just skipping the part where Tarquin abandons his infant son for 20+ years without so much as a Sending to let Elan know his father exists? And that the only justification for this was a dramatic reveal? (Which, granted, is totally Elan, but still doesn't make one a "good" father)

Ian has the best case for being a "good dad" that I've seen so far. But there may be more to be seen from each candidate.

[Warren Dew]

he deserves at least a D+ for recognizing the irrevocable differences between him and Elan's mum and splitting when the kids were young and didn't have an emotional attachment to either one is a good idea.

How did you get the impression that Elan doesn't have an emotional attachment to his father?

[KenderWizard]

Oh, wait, that's right, he had a third kid that died horribly because he wasn't paying attention.


This is it, for me. Nothing else Eugene does to let down his children can compare to this, and if he ever did anything good for them (I'm struggling to think of any examples), it could hardly make up for it. I've always been of the impression that Eugene's tombstone reads "Passable father" because you shouldn't speak ill of the dead!

The other two, I don't think we've seen enough of either of them to properly judge them, but I would be inclined to agree that Ian did the best of the three.

[VanBuren]

This is it, for me. Nothing else Eugene does to let down his children can compare to this, and if he ever did anything good for them (I'm struggling to think of any examples), it could hardly make up for it. I've always been of the impression that Eugene's tombstone reads "Passable father" because you shouldn't speak ill of the dead!

The other two, I don't think we've seen enough of either of them to properly judge them, but I would be inclined to agree that Ian did the best of the three.

To be fair, we don't know the actual circumstances of what happened. We only have Roy's word, and he was apparently quite young at the time. I'm not prepared to pass judgement before I have all the facts on that one.

[whitelaughter]

You mean self admitted crappy parent. V doesn't make any mention what gender he is.
So is V's crappy parenting is proof of being a father, and thus male?

[Kish]

Yes, because all mothers are perfect. :smallyuk:

...I actually can't think of any mothers in OotS who are established as bad/unloving parents. This is odd.

[Rinquist]

Yes, because all mothers are perfect. :smallyuk:

...I actually can't think of any mothers in OotS who are established as bad/unloving parents. This is odd.

Which is something I've never noticed before, and in good writing something like this is always intentional.

[137beth]

Roy's case argues for the opposite, though. Just as the fact that Haley's and Elan's fathers are likeable does not mean they were good fathers, the fact that Roy's father is not likeable does not mean he was a bad father. Roy turned out quite well - he's certainly the best adjusted protagonist - so I'd say that means his father was a good father.


Eugene sent Roy on a deadly mission to kill Xykon because he was to lazy to do it himself. A father who puts their child's lives in danger to save themselves is not a good father.

[Nilan8888]

...I actually can't think of any mothers in OotS who are established as bad/unloving parents. This is odd.

There's always a Belkar flashback that might do that...

Anyway, I think there should be a statement here that being a good PERSON and being a good FATHER is not the same thing. Neither is, for instance, being a good husband the same as being a good father.


Eugene: F. I do penalize for ineffectiveness.

I agree with this totally. Eugene was, technically, a "good" person, but a horrible, horrible father. I think in a nutshell, he just didn't feel particularly responsible for his children.

Roy is who he is mostly independant of Eugene, and somewhat because of his mother. Perhaps even somewhat despite Eugene.


Ian: A-. Lower if you really hate thieves.

Ian's probably the best of the lot, but I think this is a bit high. I'm not so certain that Greysky city was so completely devoid of morality and that they were under such unremittant assault. I think he's probably in B or B+ territory. What lessons he passed on to his daughter he passed on TOO WELL, and she treated everyone with outright suspicion which nearly cost her Elan. Yes, there were reasons to instill that distrust within her at the time, but he overdid it by being so stern when she was so young.

Did Ian pass down pathelogical greed to his daughter? This I'm not aware of. The fact that Haley has money issues might not be a direct result of her father.



Tarquin: F. You can't really expect a passing grade for turning out someone like Nale.

I think it's a bit early to give him a total F. We need more info at this point. Tarquin is an evil person: that does not by extension mean he is a bad father.

That he did not inform Nale of Elan's existance isn't particularly distressing to me. It doesn't seem to have hurt Nale any at the time, not caused him distress when he found out. It certainly doesn't earn Tarquin an A, but I'm not sure it sends him spiralling into an F.

We also need more information on his relationship with Nale and how they fell out. From my understanding, word from the Giant has it that Nale is literally insane: he has significant emotional issues. However this might NOT be the result of his father: Tarquin may have in fact seen these issues and tried to do something about them, and failed. They could merely be a chemical imbalance in Nale's brain, and his insanity "just is" -- and his father's upbringing to be ruthless was just Tarquin's attempt at making his son successful.

That Tarquin's wives keep dying is an indication that he is a horrible, horrible, horrible husband. In fact the worst husband possible in this comic. But this is not a reflection on his fatherhood skills.

That he took Nale with him to the southern continent might mean he is a bad father, or simply that he wanted to bring up one of his sons that badly.

I'd say Tarquin on the whole probably could get no better than a B- if he's outstanding in all other areas of fatherhood than the effects we've seen. He could also be a total F. But I think it's much too early to jump the gun and say he's a total F. Judging him completely on Nale takes away a fair responsiblity on Nale being Nale. It could be Nale is like that DESPITE Tarquin's attempts to reign him in. We just don't know that as present.

[Lecan]

Yes, because all mothers are perfect. :smallyuk:

...I actually can't think of any mothers in OotS who are established as bad/unloving parents. This is odd.
Cousin Sheila (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) MIGHT be a mother as could be the case with Aunt Judy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html). Of course, we don't know if Haley's mother was good or bad at mothering, depending on how and why she left.

Tsukiko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html) definitely has mothering instincts for her undead, although she could be an example of a good mother to the undead, given certain assumptions.

[JonestheSpy]

Yes, because all mothers are perfect. :smallyuk:

...I actually can't think of any mothers in OotS who are established as bad/unloving parents. This is odd.

That's because, as I mentioned earlier, one of the big themes of this story is Missing Fathers - not the rather simplistic "bad father" thing. Separation from the father figure, real or metaphorical, is at the root of almost all the main characters' motivations, good and evil. It's a very old archetypical story - think of Arthur and Uther, Theseus and Aegeus, etc.

Really, mother-child relationships are almost completely absent in the story in terms of being plot elements, manifesting as the occasional source of a joke and not much else.

[SPoD]

Or if your "penalizing for ineffectiveness" notes that his insistence on being "the only point of light in Greysky City" wound up with his daughter in a contract in which she worked for Bozzok and gave him nearly everything she stole, and she was in her twenties before she realized there was a problem with thisfound motivation to leave because Bozzok got Ian imprisoned somewhere, still not realizing there was any problem with her contract (so, apparently, her training included "don't tell anyone your mother died" but didn't include "do a cost-benefit analysis on any contract you sign").

I'm going to argue this, because I don't think it's fair to Haley (or Ian, I guess). We know two things about the Theives' Guild for sure: 1.) Bozzok only recently came into power, possibly as recently as a year or less before OtOoPCs, because Ian's imprisonment at that time was part of his consolidation of power, and 2.) anyone who tries to leave the Thieves' Guild under Bozzok's rule is killed.

So what we have is a situation where 17-year-old Haley joins the Guild under one set of circumstances, then there's a regime change years later. The really-unfavorable contracts seen in OtOoPCs are probably Bozzok's doing, since he has the power to force thieves to comply by killing those who don't. All you can really blame Haley for at this point is not wanting to risk being killed over money until there's a good enough reason. (Key point: She was not the ass-kicking archer she is today, she was probably about 4th or 5th level. Death was a legitimate fear for her.)

So, unless you can prove to me that Haley signed an unfair contract at all (rather than having it unfairly revised later), and that said contract was in place before the threat of violent death was enacted on any thief trying to leave the Guild, I don't really see how this is something that Haley or Ian should be held responsible for. It's just completely unrelated to the issue of parenting.

EDIT: I realized I can shorten this argument by simply saying that your premise assumes that the Thieves Guild that Ian and Haley joined operated exactly the same way as the Thieves Guild we witnessed, and that I find that assumption highly unlikely.


Also, pathologically greedy.

If it's truly pathological, it may well be genetic, not environmental. But then, we know it's not truly pathological, because she's more or less overcome it at this point.

[Kish]

But then, we know it's not truly pathological, because she's more or less overcome it at this point.
Until we see how she reacts to a waiter suggesting the concept of tipping, I'm afraid this is not something I'm prepared to grant.

[monomer]

Until we see how she reacts to a waiter suggesting the concept of tipping, I'm afraid this is not something I'm prepared to grant.

I think this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) really shows that Haley isn't as greedy as she used to be (or pretended to be to hide the fact of her father's imprisonment).

If she was really so greedy as she let on, she would have done all the haggling herself, instead of letting Elan blow through at least 2,000 GP.

[SPoD]

Until we see how she reacts to a waiter suggesting the concept of tipping, I'm afraid this is not something I'm prepared to grant.

By that token, then, how can you state that Haley knowingly and without duress signed an unfair contract with the Thieves Guild (and that therefore was not properly raised by Ian)?

If your argument is going to be, "If we didn't witness it in the comic, then we can't assume it's true," then that applies to your own points as well. You must admit that we don't know what Haley agreed to, how it may or may not have been changed when Bozzok took over, or what Ian did or did not teach her regarding cost-benefit analysis.

(And I maintain that the benefit of "Not being hunted down and stabbed by Crystal in your sleep" makes any contract Haley may have signed with Bozzok at that time a net positive on the benefit-to-cost scale.)

[Kish]

By that token, then, how can you state that Haley knowingly and without duress signed an unfair contract with the Thieves Guild (and that therefore was not properly raised by Ian)?

I don't have to. If Ian left her in a position to sign a contract under duress, that doesn't reflect too well on him either.

Facts: When we first see her, in On the Origins of PCs, she is in a contract which involves her giving nearly all of what she steals to Bozzok. She finds the wherewithal to tell Bozzok she's leaving and leave when she gets the ransom letter from her father and no sooner; and, as she does, she proceeds to promote her rivalry with Crystal and assert her superiority to Crystal.
1) she openly tells Bozzok she quits instead of sneaking out of the city, and she taunts Crystal.
2) she quits when she gets the ransom note and no sooner.
3) she does not change her name, dye her hair, or stop claiming to be a member of the Greysky City Thieves' Guild.
4) she got involved in the contract to begin with.

The assertion that none of those reflects badly on Haley's judgment or her upbringing requires an oddly specific level of fear of Bozzok and Crystal. Conversely, as far as her having gotten over her greed--well, she evidently loves Elan more than money, but going from there to "she's more or less overcome it" strikes me as thoroughly bizarre.