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View Full Version : Large group of newbies - let's go on a-dungeoncrawlin'! But how?



Morph Bark
2010-08-06, 03:15 PM
My usual 3.5 DnD group is rather small, 3 guys, me included, but two of us are going to be going on a one-week vacation with some other friends of hours the last week of August, during which we'll also play a lot of computer games (mainly Red Alert 3, Sins of a Solar Empire, Trackmania Nations Forever, Unreal Tournament 2004 and Counterstrike: Source, for those who want to know).

I got the idea of trying to convince some or all of them to try their hand at DnD and get a game going for a bit. Last year there were 9 of us, this year it's possible there will be one more, and the other guy in our DnD group might come over on one day. I know at least one of the others has played 3.5 before, though he may be playing 4E now, I don't know.

I will be bringing some books with me so they can page through them, at least my PHB and ToB. Basically, this boils down to:
Which base classes have the lowest learning curve, and which ones have a higher learning curve but once grasped don't require a lot of know-how? I plan on asking the guys who are interested what kind of character they'd want to play and show them the most fitting classes for that. Wizard, Cleric and Druid have tons of spells, so for complete newbies they might require too much know-how, especially since this would start at level 1. I will likely allow Cleric though, considering they'll need healing as newbies to the game and being accustomed to video games (or I could just throw in a wand of CLW a little early, like everyone else). Artificer will be right out as well.
For ease, I will start off the session, if it gets off at all, with them all sitting in a tavern in an island town when it is attacked and the innkeeper will get the guests into a bunker with tunnels that have access to deep underground dungeons and such. This will likely get them going, but what monsters are most fit to use against a large group of level-1-ers? It should be challenging, but still easy enough and interesting enough to keep them focused on the game.
What can I do to make the game still fast-paced enough? I doubt I will get all of them to join in, but one of them has already expressed interest (and if I throw in things from Star Wars/Trek he'll probably be hooked), so I'm thinking I'll have 5 players, perhaps 6. Secretly I am hoping I can get all of them in on it though.
For that matter, how do I know I got enough material, but can still get them to the end of a dungeon in one session? Note that I don't know how long this session will be, though I am counting on at least 4 hours, not counting character creation.
Thematic music! To add some feel, I want thematic music for in the background, especially for fights, to spice it up a bit and perhaps it might even be an idea to theme the fights around the music - Irish tunes for monstrous leprechauns for instance. Suggestions, pretty please?


I think the dungeon[s] will include some sections that aren't populated by monsters and have buildings, abandoned or no, with supplies or such. I got some things in mind already: there will be a spring with a phoenix living in it that will resurrect corpses throw into the spring, and a smithy with a petrified dwarf in it that can create weapons for them if they leave chunks of metal behind.

For those who wish to suggest it: I'm reluctant to learn or purchase 4E, especially on such short note, especially since I love to homebrew my monsters and the like. Furthermore, I'm actually kinda hoping that after that week some of them might be interested in continuing to play, and that they may become regulars at my table (or any table for that matter).

MightyTim
2010-08-06, 03:43 PM
I've got a bit of experience playing with newbies (All of my party had started within this last year).

If I'd give you any advice, it would be not to overload them that first session. If possible, find a way for them to read up before you actually sit down for the first time. Have them concentrate on the character creation stuff and get some ideas in their heads about what kind of characters they'd like to create (regardless of whether or not you want to steer them away from some of the more difficult builds).

If they go into that first session completely flat-footed, you're going to have a 4 hour session of people sitting around in the same room, reading the Player's Handbook. That's not fun. Their first experience needs to be engaging so that if someone asks them about it, they say "It was fun, my fighter went into the dungeon and killed a bunch of goblins, and then got this sweet ax" rather than "It was really confusing. All the rules and numbers. We spent so much time getting everything set up that we barely got to actually do anything."

I'd almost even suggest giving them pre-built characters (onto which they can put their own personalities, of course) to save the time that character generation inevitably sucks from the start of a campaign when you're playing with complete newbies.

As for music, my playing group always listens to "Hero" by Skillet to get into the mood.

Xefas
2010-08-06, 03:44 PM
Which base classes have the lowest learning curve, and which ones have a higher learning curve but once grasped don't require a lot of know-how? I plan on asking the guys who are interested what kind of character they'd want to play and show them the most fitting classes for that. Wizard, Cleric and Druid have tons of spells, so for complete newbies they might require too much know-how, especially since this would start at level 1. I will likely allow Cleric though, considering they'll need healing as newbies to the game and being accustomed to video games (or I could just throw in a wand of CLW a little early, like everyone else). Artificer will be right out as well.

I have a major gripe with this. Assuming your friends are middle school age or older, it shouldn't be too difficult to grasp how a caster works.

Here's my guide on how to play a level 1 Wizard:
Put your highest stat in Intelligence (if its a point buy just do 18)
There are around 40 core level 1 spells
Pick 7 of them. You know these 7.
Every day, pick 2 of them. You can cast these that day.
You know all 0th level spells. Every day, pick 3 of them.
You are very physical fragile. Don't wear armor; just stand in the back.
Maybe pick up some Knowledge skills.

You can fit that on a 3x5 notecard if you want.

Making an effective caster is actually a lot easier than making an effective Fighter or playing a Rogue effectively.


What can I do to make the game still fast-paced enough? I doubt I will get all of them to join in, but one of them has already expressed interest (and if I throw in things from Star Wars/Trek he'll probably be hooked), so I'm thinking I'll have 5 players, perhaps 6. Secretly I am hoping I can get all of them in on it though.

To speed things up, don't drag combat out to the last man. Especially at level one, it's easy for a few kobolds with some half-decent armor to hole up behind some cover and drag things out for 45 minutes longer than they should. Just have them surrender, or run away, or assume the players finish them off.

Morph Bark
2010-08-06, 03:47 PM
I have a major gripe with this. Assuming your friends are middle school age or older, it shouldn't be too difficult to grasp how a caster works.

That's not really the big thing, to be honest. It's moreso that they'd be the kind of players who would want to see all their options and pick from those... and wizards, clerics and druids have tons. If one of them would say they'd want to play a wizard, I'd ask them what kind, and direct them to either Beguiler, Warmage or Dread Necromancer.

Gotta run for now though, will reply to others later today.

Ditto
2010-08-06, 03:48 PM
I'd look up the Burning Plague, and steal some encounters from there. Kobolds are good fun and easy cannon fodder. You can adapt that easily into your underground tunner situation - why look, kobolds are in the next shaft over! And gee, they don't much appreciate you busting in on their home! And ack, that's a dire weasel with blood drain?! Good times. :smallsmile:

Xefas
2010-08-06, 03:49 PM
That's not really the big thing, to be honest. It's moreso that they'd be the kind of players who would want to see all their options and pick from those... and wizards, clerics and druids have tons. If one of them would say they'd want to play a wizard, I'd ask them what kind, and direct them to either Beguiler, Warmage or Dread Necromancer.

Gotta run for now though, will reply to others later today.

Ah, that's understandable then. :smallsmile:

Zovc
2010-08-06, 03:50 PM
1.
Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, and Warmage all make good choices for vancian casters, since the spell list is already determined. Psions and Psychic Warriors are also good classes, again, because they don't have to change their prepared spells daily. The Tome of Battle classes all have fairly simple mechanics. For each of those classes, you will want to provide players with a list (casters) or cards (ToB) of their abilities so that they don't have to keep referencing a book.

If you have a player who really wants to be a Cleric or Druid (based on their name, probably), consider using the spontaneous divine caste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)r variant. If your players don't need to prepare spells, the game will move tremendously faster. Insist that players who want to play a Wizard learn the game with one of the first four casters (or maybe Psion) that I suggested.

The Beguiler can serve as a skillmonkey, but it's possible your rogue players won't want to be magic-y. Consider first the Rogue, then the Factotum. The Scout is a good class, but probably not so much in a dungeon. The Spellthief might be a decent class if you guys don't make it very far.

With that, you should have most party roles (and archetypes) covered, you've got your arcanists (Beguiler, etc, Psion), you've got two gishes (Duskblade and PsyWar), you've got melee classes (ToB), you've got divine casters, and you've got skillmonkies.

2.
I'm not sure, but make sure that every scene isn't a bunch of corridors so that the players get the chance to move around. Perhaps try to bring in environmental hazards for one or two fights.

3.
Avoid classes with a lot of choices for actions (not that you can't choose classes with options), and avoid prepared casters like the plague. In the first few combats, make suggestions as to what players should be doing on their turns.

4.
Keep in mind, you're in control of the pacing. If you guys have covered a lot of ground a lot faster than you expected, take a break for [meal], and spend a while asking everyone how they think the game is going. If they really don't like something, you might be able to fix that before continuing, it also might give you ideas that you can stretch the game out a little longer with. If anything, when you guys reach the end, you can ask the players what they want to do. Maybe they want to hack 'n' slash a little more, maybe they want to learn about the game a little more, or maybe they just want to call it a night.

5.
No ideas here, consider borrowing music from RPGs.

Amazon warrior
2010-08-06, 04:01 PM
If it would help at all, I came up with this scenario (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163145) for my group of players, two of which are new and don't have the advantage of being computer gamers. It's intended to be fast-paced, but goodness knows what'll happen when the players get their sticky mitts on it! Feel free to pick it over for ideas.

MightyTim
2010-08-06, 04:15 PM
No ideas here, consider borrowing music from RPGs.

Final Fantasy 7 Tunes would probably guarantee a good laugh.

Xefas
2010-08-06, 04:24 PM
Final Fantasy 7 Tunes would probably guarantee a good laugh.

If a laugh is what you're going for, have the Pokemon Battle Music ready for when the first group of kobolds/goblins/whathaveyou leaps out at them.

DM: :smallsmile: "From the brush emerges a group of 3-foot high, snarling, scaly humanoids with spears!"
Players: :smallconfused:
DM: :smallsmile: *click*
... doodlulululululululu dun dun dunuhhh dun dun

W3bDragon
2010-08-06, 08:38 PM
I will be bringing some books with me so they can page through them, at least my PHB and ToB.

I suspect that the lack of multiple PHBs could be problematic. Perhaps you could get the character creation going while everyone is on their PC, so they get online access to all the info they'd need. While actually playing, a couple of laptops with the srd open would ease the strain on your poor PHB.

Morph Bark
2010-08-07, 04:29 AM
If I'd give you any advice, it would be not to overload them that first session. If possible, find a way for them to read up before you actually sit down for the first time. Have them concentrate on the character creation stuff and get some ideas in their heads about what kind of characters they'd like to create (regardless of whether or not you want to steer them away from some of the more difficult builds).

If they go into that first session completely flat-footed, you're going to have a 4 hour session of people sitting around in the same room, reading the Player's Handbook. That's not fun. Their first experience needs to be engaging so that if someone asks them about it, they say "It was fun, my fighter went into the dungeon and killed a bunch of goblins, and then got this sweet ax" rather than "It was really confusing. All the rules and numbers. We spent so much time getting everything set up that we barely got to actually do anything."

I'd almost even suggest giving them pre-built characters (onto which they can put their own personalities, of course) to save the time that character generation inevitably sucks from the start of a campaign when you're playing with complete newbies.

Tonight some of them are going to be at a LAN-party I will be attending. I guess I could bring my PHB and tell them some things already, or spread around PDFs of DnD books I've purchased, so they can read up at home. I will only give the books that are really player-oriented and don't give more than necessary though... so just the classes mentioned (meaning PHB, PHBII, Complete Arcane/Adventurer, XPH, ToB, Heroes of Horror). I would rather not give them pre-made characters though, even if I did I bet they'd soon want to create their own characters or lose interest.


I'd look up the Burning Plague, and steal some encounters from there. Kobolds are good fun and easy cannon fodder. You can adapt that easily into your underground tunner situation - why look, kobolds are in the next shaft over! And gee, they don't much appreciate you busting in on their home! And ack, that's a dire weasel with blood drain?! Good times. :smallsmile:

You mean this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20000801a) Burning Plague?


1.
Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, and Warmage all make good choices for vancian casters, since the spell list is already determined. Psions and Psychic Warriors are also good classes, again, because they don't have to change their prepared spells daily. The Tome of Battle classes all have fairly simple mechanics. For each of those classes, you will want to provide players with a list (casters) or cards (ToB) of their abilities so that they don't have to keep referencing a book.

Cards sound like a good idea for a start. Though I hope they won't start thinking of DnD as a card-based board game, heh.


If you have a player who really wants to be a Cleric or Druid (based on their name, probably), consider using the spontaneous divine caste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)r variant. If your players don't need to prepare spells, the game will move tremendously faster. Insist that players who want to play a Wizard learn the game with one of the first four casters (or maybe Psion) that I suggested.

If there is someone who really really really wants to play a Cleric or Druid, I'll prolly just let them go ahead, but have them stick to one set of spells they choose for ease. Variants will prolly be too much from the first session to go, better to use later. At first level they won't be hugely powerful or all that different in power yet... depending on how the Druid would use its Animal Companion.


The Beguiler can serve as a skillmonkey, but it's possible your rogue players won't want to be magic-y. Consider first the Rogue, then the Factotum. The Scout is a good class, but probably not so much in a dungeon. The Spellthief might be a decent class if you guys don't make it very far.

If there will be enough people interested, I might even try to get two of them to play classes with trapfinding. It might help a little in teaching them about Aid Another and such, and they won't be sitting ducks if their trapmonkey dies (another reason I thought up the phoenix spring).


2.
I'm not sure, but make sure that every scene isn't a bunch of corridors so that the players get the chance to move around. Perhaps try to bring in environmental hazards for one or two fights.

Of course. The scenery should still be interesting. I might even have to rip a few of the rooms from video games some of them might know, to keep them smiling and interested.


4.
Keep in mind, you're in control of the pacing. If you guys have covered a lot of ground a lot faster than you expected, take a break for [meal], and spend a while asking everyone how they think the game is going. If they really don't like something, you might be able to fix that before continuing, it also might give you ideas that you can stretch the game out a little longer with. If anything, when you guys reach the end, you can ask the players what they want to do. Maybe they want to hack 'n' slash a little more, maybe they want to learn about the game a little more, or maybe they just want to call it a night.

I'll try to keep this in mind. So far I am used to dealing with only two players with occassionally cohorts or summons, and many of the sessions I have DM'd have been basically "winging it" half the time (sometimes just a bit, sometimes the entire session, as with our current campaign, which was made up entirely on the spot when I needed a new area or NPC).


If it would help at all, I came up with this scenario (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163145) for my group of players, two of which are new and don't have the advantage of being computer gamers. It's intended to be fast-paced, but goodness knows what'll happen when the players get their sticky mitts on it! Feel free to pick it over for ideas.

Thanks, I'll give it a look through. :smallsmile:


Final Fantasy 7 Tunes would probably guarantee a good laugh.

If a laugh is what you're going for, have the Pokemon Battle Music ready for when the first group of kobolds/goblins/whathaveyou leaps out at them.

DM: :smallsmile: "From the brush emerges a group of 3-foot high, snarling, scaly humanoids with spears!"
Players: :smallconfused:
DM: :smallsmile: *click*
... doodlulululululululu dun dun dunuhhh dun dun

Oh, definitely. :smallbiggrin: They will no doubt like that, though my regular player(s) might groan at it.


I suspect that the lack of multiple PHBs could be problematic. Perhaps you could get the character creation going while everyone is on their PC, so they get online access to all the info they'd need. While actually playing, a couple of laptops with the srd open would ease the strain on your poor PHB.

We won't have internet there, but as I stated earlier in this post, I can provide them with PDF copies of necessary DnD books. Plus since several of us will be familar with the rules we can provide help quickly on the spot.

Amphetryon
2010-08-07, 06:34 AM
1. Which base classes have the lowest learning curve, and which ones have a higher learning curve but once grasped don't require a lot of know-how? I plan on asking the guys who are interested what kind of character they'd want to play and show them the most fitting classes for that. Wizard, Cleric and Druid have tons of spells, so for complete newbies they might require too much know-how, especially since this would start at level 1. I will likely allow Cleric though, considering they'll need healing as newbies to the game and being accustomed to video games (or I could just throw in a wand of CLW a little early, like everyone else). Artificer will be right out as well.
2. For ease, I will start off the session, if it gets off at all, with them all sitting in a tavern in an island town when it is attacked and the innkeeper will get the guests into a bunker with tunnels that have access to deep underground dungeons and such. This will likely get them going, but what monsters are most fit to use against a large group of level-1-ers? It should be challenging, but still easy enough and interesting enough to keep them focused on the game.
3. What can I do to make the game still fast-paced enough? I doubt I will get all of them to join in, but one of them has already expressed interest (and if I throw in things from Star Wars/Trek he'll probably be hooked), so I'm thinking I'll have 5 players, perhaps 6. Secretly I am hoping I can get all of them in on it though.
4. For that matter, how do I know I got enough material, but can still get them to the end of a dungeon in one session? Note that I don't know how long this session will be, though I am counting on at least 4 hours, not counting character creation.
5. Thematic music! To add some feel, I want thematic music for in the background, especially for fights, to spice it up a bit and perhaps it might even be an idea to theme the fights around the music - Irish tunes for monstrous leprechauns for instance. Suggestions, pretty please?
I run a game in a public space, largely with newbies. Any given week I have 6 + 1d12 players, so I can relate. To your questions:
1) It's my experience that newbies have an easier time with Psionics than with D&D's Vancian magic system, which is less intuitive than 'subtract the power points you use, no more than your Psionic level.' They also tend to have the easiest time picking up mechanics for Classes most closely attuned to the concept in their heads; be sure to ask every player what Character they picture, whether inspired by something famous or more original, and try to make it work within your available book set.

2) Against large groups, I've had the best luck with using large groups of smaller CR critters. A single CR 1 Monster likely crushes one PC then falls hard and fast to the action economy brought by 6 - 7 Players, whereas 12 CR 1/3 beasties will pose a reasonably credible but not overwhelming threat, and will still be likely to provide a couple rounds of combat for the newbies to learn from. Just don't let the large group swarm an individual PC until the Players are better at tactics than newbies generally are.

3) I use a timer on Players' Initiatives. If they cannot decide what their action is within two minutes, I take their turn for them. If they're frantically looking for a specific spell or creature to summon, that time limit is a bit relaxed; if they're sitting and not apparently thinking about their actions, that time limit gets tightened.

4) If I knew, I'd tell you. :smalltongue:

5) Theme music never syncs up for my games correctly, so not much help here.

Morph Bark
2010-08-07, 05:00 PM
I'd look up the Burning Plague, and steal some encounters from there. Kobolds are good fun and easy cannon fodder. You can adapt that easily into your underground tunner situation - why look, kobolds are in the next shaft over! And gee, they don't much appreciate you busting in on their home! And ack, that's a dire weasel with blood drain?! Good times. :smallsmile:

I looked up the Burning Plague... and it turns out I actually used the environment before, except as a zombie-infested mine that my regular players will likely still be familiar with. I could certainly still use the encounters in a different environment though.


1) It's my experience that newbies have an easier time with Psionics than with D&D's Vancian magic system, which is less intuitive than 'subtract the power points you use, no more than your Psionic level.' They also tend to have the easiest time picking up mechanics for Classes most closely attuned to the concept in their heads; be sure to ask every player what Character they picture, whether inspired by something famous or more original, and try to make it work within your available book set.

Psionics might indeed be easier for them, especially since it is a sort of "mana" system prevalent in video games too. I might have to key more to what they can do in that case then though, considering with some arcane classes they'd have more/different options.


2) Against large groups, I've had the best luck with using large groups of smaller CR critters. A single CR 1 Monster likely crushes one PC then falls hard and fast to the action economy brought by 6 - 7 Players, whereas 12 CR 1/3 beasties will pose a reasonably credible but not overwhelming threat, and will still be likely to provide a couple rounds of combat for the newbies to learn from. Just don't let the large group swarm an individual PC until the Players are better at tactics than newbies generally are.

3) I use a timer on Players' Initiatives. If they cannot decide what their action is within two minutes, I take their turn for them. If they're frantically looking for a specific spell or creature to summon, that time limit is a bit relaxed; if they're sitting and not apparently thinking about their actions, that time limit gets tightened.

Thanks, this will be really helpful. :smallsmile: