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LingVudka
2010-08-06, 03:26 PM
I thought I'd post on here to get opinions other than from the group I run for. I was wanting to know what Tier people think this is as I was aiming for between 3 and 4. At the moment I'm thinking it's low to mid Tier 4.

It's my first rewrite posting. :smallredface:

PALADIN

Alignment - Any


{TABLE="head;width=70%"]
Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 |+1 |+2 |+0 |+0 |Alignment Aura, Detect Alignment, Smite 1/day
2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Divine Grace, Lay on Hands/Deadly Touch
3 | +3 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Paladin's Aura, Divine Health
4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Renew Smite, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Spellcasting
5 | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Special Mount
6 | +6/+1 | +5 | +1 | +1 | Panacea
7 | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Divine Accolade, Recovering Smite
8 | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Truthseer
9 | +9/+4 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Distant Hands/Touch, Dual Detect
10 | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Recurring Smite, Steadfast
11 | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Augmented Smite, Mark of the Divine
12 | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +3 | +3 | Purging Smite
13 | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Divine Accolade
14 | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +4 | Ordained Warrior
15 | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +4 | +4 | Enhanced Distant Hands/Touch
16 | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Greater Recurring Smite
17 | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Divine Accolade
18 | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +5 | +5 | Revealing Vision
19 | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Constant Smite, Divine Accolade
20 | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +6 | Ascension

[/TABLE]


Unless stated here all Paladin class abilities (from the Player’s Handbook and Unearthed Arcana) remain unchanged.

Paladin Variants: The abilities of the Paladin variants from the Unearthed Arcana (Freedom [Chaotic Good], Tyranny [Lawful Evil] and Slaughter [Chaotic Evil]) are gained at the same level as the traditional Paladin (Righteousness [Lawful Good]).

Class Skills: The variant replacements from Unearthed Arcana apply.

Proficiencies: Paladins are also proficient with their deities favoured weapon.

CLASS FEATURES

Alignment Aura (Ex):
A Paladin MUST be of the same alignment as their deity, if the deity does not have an alignment then the Paladin must choose their alignment according to the deity’s dogma. A Paladin must act as a prime example of the ideals/dogma/teachings of their deity. If a Paladin’s alignment moves away from their deity’s then they do not lose all supernatural and spell-like abilities granted by their Paladin class levels but cannot advance further in the Paladin class until their alignment corresponds to their deity. If a Paladin stops worshipping a deity then they cannot use any supernatural abilities.

*Special: If a Paladin changes their worship to another deity then they must change their class abilities to reflect their new deity. This requires a ritual and the completion of a special goal by the new deity relative to the Paladin’s level. Changing deities renders all worshippers of the previous deity with an attitude of at least unfriendly. Any interaction checks with the previous deity’s worshippers require double the effort to change any attitudes i.e. all attitude check DC’s are doubled.
A Paladin radiates an aura of their alignment equal to a cleric of their level. A Neutral Paladin’s aura will fluctuate depending upon the abilities used and how recently they used them.

Paladins that are not of the four standard classes (Righteousness, Freedom, Tyranny and Slaughter) must choose their abilities from one of the four standards. A Neutral Paladin can only choose from a standard class that is one alignment step away from their own e.g. a Lawful Neutral Paladin can only choose between Righteousness [LG] and Tyranny [LE] while a True Neutral Paladin can choose from all four standards.

Detect Alignment (Sp):
At 1st level a Paladin gains the ability to use Detect Alignment as a spell like ability at will. The alignment detected is of an opposing nature to the Paladin’s alignment. If the Paladin has more than one factor in their alignment then they must choose which alignment they will be able to detect e.g. a NG Paladin gets Detect Evil, a LN Paladin gains Detect Chaos while a CE Paladin must choose either Detect Good or Detect Law. A True Neutral Paladin must choose which alignment they will detect. Once an alignment is chosen it can never be changed.*

Smite (Su):
At 1st level a Paladin gains the Smite ability according to their alignment. If a Paladin has two factors in their alignment then they must choose what alignment their Smite ability will take e.g. a Lawful Good Paladin can choose either to Smite Evil or Smite Chaos while a Neutral Evil Paladin can only have a Smite Good. A True Neutral Paladin is the only exception to the rule whereby they can choose any alignment for their Smite ability. Once the alignment of the Smite is chosen it can never be changed.*

As per the PHB Smite still overcomes DR, is not precision damage and is not subject to critical hits. The Paladin still applies their Charisma bonus to attack rolls. The extra damage is equal to +1d8 for every level of Paladin. As a Paladin gains levels their Smite will be usable more often and increase in power.

Smite takes a standard action, can be used as part of a charge and must be declared before the attack is begun.

Paladin’s Aura (Su):
The radius for the effect of a Paladin’s Aura (Courage [LG], Resolve [CG], Despair [LE] or Debilitating [CE]) is equal to 10ft + 5ft for every five Paladin levels up to a maximum of 30ft at 20th level.

Renew Smite (Su):
A Paladin of 4th level and higher can renew the daily use of their Smite ability by spending 10 minutes of unbroken concentration in prayer to their deity.

Special Mount (Sp):
It is recommended for the Mount chosen to be agreeable to your deity’s dogma/teachings/ethos or of a form that your deity identifies with e.g. a Giant Owl may be used for a god of hunting while a wolf could also be used for the same god, a non-venomous snake could be used for a healing god or for a god of lies and deception. The thematic is up to the GM and the player though.
The ability to summon a Special Mount is a spell-like ability and counts as a spell of the same descriptor as the Paladin’s alignment i.e. it would count as a good aligned spell from a NG Paladin while there wouldn’t be an alignment on the spell from a TN Paladin.


Panacea (Sp):
At 6th level a Paladin can use Panacea as spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to their Paladin class levels divided by five i.e. 2/day at 10th, 3/day at 15th and 4/day at 20th level.

Divine Accolade:
At 7th level a Paladin is rewarded by their deity for the services they have performed. The Paladin can now choose any feat they qualify for. The Paladin is rewarded again at 13th, 17th and 19th level.

Recovering Smite (Su):
At 7th level a Paladin becomes much more attuned to their deity and only needs to wait 2 minutes before being able to use their Smite ability again. Also from now on their Smite ability does not get wasted if the attack it is used with does not succeed, it is now considered 'Reliable'.

Truthseer (Su):
A Paladin is always on the lookout for infidels and this has honed their ability to see through lies and deceit. An 8th level Paladin rolls twice against any Bluff check and takes the better result. They also gain a +2 bonus on saves to disbelieve illusions when interacting with them.

Lastly a Paladin can now see invisible and ethereal creatures as if they had See Invisibility as the spell. The Paladin can use this ability in 10 minute intervals with a maximum number of intervals equal to half the Paladin's class level. These intervals need not be consecutive.

Distant Hands/Touch (Su):
A 9th level Paladin’s Lay on Hands or Deadly Touch ability now has a range equal to their Paladin’s Aura. This ability can be used to heal an ally as an immediate action. This healing can prevent an ally from dying if applied at the moment of an attack although the Paladin must have the necessary amount of Lay on Hands points to negate/prevent the damage. A Paladin cannot heal themselves as an immediate action, only as a standard action.

If a Paladin is using this ability as an attack then they must succeed on a ranged touch attack on an enemy. This use of Distant Hands/Touch requires a standard action. Any recipient must be within line of effect for this ability to work.

The Paladin also becomes more efficient with this ability and can heal a number of hit points equal to twice their Paladin level times their Charisma modifier (2 x Paladin levels x CHA modifier).

Additionally the Paladin may heal Ability damage with their Distant Hands/Touch. The number of healing points spent is dependant upon the value of the ability to be healed e.g. healing an ability from 6 to 7 would require 7 healing points, healing an ability from 13 to 14 would require 14 healing points. Each level of ability healed must be paid in full before higher levels can be healed.


Dual Detect (Sp):
At 9th level a Paladin’s Detect Alignment gains the other opposing factor of their alignment. If a Paladin’s second factor of their alignment is Neutral then they must choose an alignment of the other type e.g. a LG Paladin chose Detect Evil at 1st level and now gains Detect Chaos, a CN Paladin gained Detect Law at 1st level and now must choose either Detect Evil or Detect Good. True Neutral Paladin's do not gain the second Detect Alignment ability.

A Paladin's deity will not allow them to have Detect Evil and Detect Good at the same time or Detect Chaos and Detect Law at the same time. Dual Detect incorporates both detect spell-like abilities into one use. This means both detect abilities occur with one use and a Paladin does not have to concentrate to determine alignments or aura strengths. A Paladin adds their Charisma bonus to their character level when determining if an overwhelming aura will stun them.

Recurring Smite (Su):
A 10th level Paladin further attunes to their deity and can now use their Smite ability more often. They can use their Smite every 5 rounds.

Steadfast (Ex):
A 10th level Paladin has taken so much damage that they can stand and fight even until death. They gain Diehard as a bonus feat. If they already have Diehard then the Paladin may choose another feat that they qualify for.

Additionally, while a Paladin is at or under 1/4 of their HP they gain a morale bonus to their AC equal to the number of rounds that they have been at or under 1/4HP up to a maximum of +10.

Augmented Smite (Su):
At 11th level a Paladin gains the Augmented Smite ability whereby the Paladin’s Smite ability gains another alignment. If the Paladin has two factors in their alignment then they automatically get the second opposing alignment, if the Paladin second alignment factor is Neutral then they must choose their second opposing alignment for their Smite ability. A True Neutral Paladin does not gain the second alignment to their Smite ability.

Once chosen this second alignment does not change.* The Paladin's Smite ability now works against both alignment factors e.g. a Lawful Good Paladin’s Smite works against both chaotic creatures and/or evil creatures.

Augmented Smite lasts for a full round and applies to all attacks (including attacks of opportunity) made in that round however the extra damage applied to every attack is equal to +1d8 for every 4 levels of Paladin. Smite now only requires a swift action and can be used with a full attack. A Paladin still adds their Charisma modifier to all attack rolls. A Paladin can still Smite as a standard action or part of a charge where they would apply +1d8 for every Paladin level.

Mark of the Divine (Ex):
An 11th level Paladin has devoted themselves to their deity so much that they gain an aligned damage reduction. This damage reduction is of the opposite alignment as the Paladin's. If a Paladin has two factors in their alignment they must choose which of their alignments their damage reduction will apply to e.g. a Neutral Good Paladin gains DR 10/Evil, a Lawful Neutral Paladin gains DR 10/Chaos while a Chaotic Evil Paladin can choose either DR 10/Good or DR 10/Law. A True Neutral Paladin must choose which aligned damage reduction to have.

Purging Smite (Su):
A 12th level Paladin's Smite ability now causes an invisibility purge against creatures that are subject to their Smite. This purge occurs every time a Paladin succeeds on a Smite attack and is centred on the creature hit by the Smite attack. If an invisible creature is subject to a Smite attack then their invisibility is dispelled. If the invisibilty is a spell-like or supernatural ability then that ability is repressed for a number of rounds equal to the Wisdom modifier of the Paladin.

Additionally the recipient of the Smite attack can be subject to an effect that replicates Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word or Word of Chaos depending upon the Paladin's first alignment choice for their Smite ability. To use this ability the Paladin must sacrifice one of their Turn Undead attempts. This action MUST be included with the Smite declaration. The effective caster level for this ability is equal to the Paladin's class level + WIS modifier. Any recipient of the Smite attack can improve their effective HD by 1 step if they pass a Fortitude save DC = 10 + 1/2 Paladin's level + Charisma modifier. This effect only occurs on the recipient of the Smite.

Ordained Warrior (Ex):
A Paladin of 14th level gains the alignment subtype(s) of their deity. They also gain 60ft Darkvision if they do not already have it and gain a resistance according to their alignment shown in the following table:


{TABLE="width=50%"]Alignment | GOOD| NEUTRAL| EVIL
LAWFUL | Acid | Cold | Electricity
NEUTRAL | Cold | Sonic | Fire
CHAOS | Electricity | Fire | Acid[/TABLE]

This value is equal to their Paladin levels and does not stack with any other sources of resistance.

Enhanced Distant Hands/Touch (Su):
The Paladin may now heal ability drain with their Distant Hands/Touch. This use requires 3 times the ability level in healing points e.g. if a character has had Dexterity drain from 14 to 13 then the Paladin would need to use 42 Lay on Hands points (3 x 14), if a character has had their Constitution drained from 10 to 6 then the Paladin would need to spend 21 points to increase it to 7 then another 24 points to increase it to 8 then a further 27 points to increase it 9 and finally another 30 points to raise it back to 10 (a total of 112 Lay on Hands points). As per Distant Hands/Touch higher ability points cannot be healed before lower ability points.

The Paladin has now become so efficient with this ability they can heal a number of hit points equal to three times their Paladin level multiplied by their Charisma modifier (3 x Paladin levels x CHA modifier).

Greater Recurring Smite (Su):
A 16th level Paladin can recover each Smite ability every 3 rounds.

Revealing Vision (Ex):
An 18th level Paladin is considered to have True Seeing permanently active against creatures, and any related effects from those creatures, that are subject to their Smite ability.

Constant Smite (Su):
At 19th level a Paladin is such a prime example of their deity's beliefs that they can now channel their Smite ability every round.

Ascension:
A 20th level Paladin is granted the Outsider (native) subtype and they do not age further or suffer any more ill effects of aging however a Paladin will still only live for the natural lifetime of their species. The Paladin must still eat, sleep and breathe.

The Paladins damage reduction gained from Divine Touch is improved to 20 and now functions against both opposing alignments. A Paladin with a Neutral factor in their alignment must choose their second aligned damage reduction. This means that in order to bypass the Paladin’s damage reduction an opponent will need both alignments e.g. a 20th level LE Paladin now has DR 20/(Good & Chaos). A True Neutral Paladin does not gain this second aligned damage reduction.

The Paladin's resistance from Outsider's Touch is doubled and they gain a second resistance of their choice that is in the same column or row from the table under Outsider’s Touch e.g. a LG Paladin gained Res Acid and can now choose either Cold or Electricity while a TN Paladin gained Res Sonic and can now choose either Cold or Fire. These resistances do not stack with any other source.

An Ascended Paladin can also generate a Magic Circle against the same alignment as their Smite ability as a swift action for a total of 20 minutes. This is a Supernatural ability and the minutes need not be consecutive. While this Magic Circle is active the Paladin may communicate telepathically with any outsider that shares their full alignment up to a distance of 100ft.

-----------


The Axiomatic and Anarchic templates for the Special Mount are found in the Planar Handbook.

I should point out that in the game I run a character does not die at -10hp but at -1/4 of the Maximum hit points e.g. if the character has 60hp then they would die at -15hp, if they have 200hp they would die at -50hp. That should put Diehard into a bit more perspective.

FlamingKobold
2010-08-06, 10:50 PM
I have a high amount of interest in paladin redoes, as I've done one myself, and I don't want you to be where I am, with no comments on balance :smallfrown: And to make up for that shameless self-plug, I offer a full critique.


I thought I'd post on here to get opinions other than from the group I run for. I was wanting to know what Tier people think this is as I was aiming for between 3 and 4.Let's see how close you were to your mark.


It's my first rewrite posting. :smallredface: Welcome :smallsmile:


PALADIN

Alignment - Any

BAB - Full

Good Saves - Fort
Poor Saves - Ref, Will

LEVEL

Alignment Aura, Detect Alignment, Smite 1/day
Divine Grace, Lay on Hands/Deadly Touch
Paladin's Aura, Divine Health
Smite 2/day, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Spellcasting
Special Mount
Panacea 1/day
Smite 3/day
Dual Detect, Truthseer
Distant Hands
Smite 4/day, Steadfast
Augmented Smite, Divine Touch
Panacea 2/day
Smite 5/day
Outsider's Touch
Celestial/Fiendish Mount
Smite 6/day
Divine Accolade
Panacea 3/day
Smite 7/day
Ascension
Generally we like tables here. Either check out Fax's guide (linked in the stickied thread in the homebrew boards) or I (or another generous forumite) can make one for you.


Unless stated here all Paladin class abilities (from the Player’s Handbook and Unearthed Arcana) remain unchanged.Good to know.


Paladin Variants: The abilities of the Paladin variants from the Unearthed Arcana (Freedom [Chaotic Good], Tyranny [Lawful Evil] and Slaughter [Chaotic Evil]) are gained at the same level as the traditional Paladin (Righteousness [Lawful Good]). Yay for no alignment restriction.


Proficiencies: Paladins are also proficient with their deities favoured weapon.Logical


SPECIAL ABILITIES Generally this reads "Class Features"


Alignment Aura (Ex): Okay. I think TN will be the best paladins, if this will become a common theme. Let's see. Other than that, no problems here.


Detect Alignment (Sp): Okay, not much change here.


Smite (Su):
At first level a Paladin gains the Smite ability according to their alignment. If a Paladin has two factors in their alignment then they must choose what alignment their Smite ability will take e.g. a Lawful Good Paladin can choose either to Smite Evil or Smite Chaos while a Neutral Evil Paladin can only have a Smite Good. A True Neutral Paladin is the only exception to the rule whereby they can choose any alignment for their Smite ability. Once the alignment of the Smite is chosen it can never be changed.*So TNs can still be any type, really. Huh.


The extra damage from Smite counts towards the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and is equal to the Paladin’s class level.
Did it not before? and do they still get +cha to hit?


This damage is not precision damage and it is subject to critical hits. That it's not precision damage is assumed.


A Paladin gains an additional Smite per day for every three Paladin class levels above one up to a maximum of 7/day at 19th level. If you add that, I think it means it won't increase in epic. Also, I think smites per day is a bad mechanic, as it just reaffirms the 15 minute workday. Per encounter, or cooldown based and at will is, i think, better.


This is a supernatural ability and will not function in an anti-magic zone. It says "(Su)" and definitionally does not function in an AMF.


Smite takes a standard action, can be used as part of a charge and must be declared at the start of the round.I thought Su's were default standard actions, but it doesn't hurt. And I'd say "before you attack," in case something happens during your move action but before your standard that makes you change your mind.


Paladin’s Aura (Su):[quote]
This is fine. Again, Su abilities all ready don't function in AMFs.

[quote]Panacea (Sp):What's Panacea? (Which should be italicized). It's not on crystalkeep.


Dual Detect (Sp): TN's getting better and better. Not bad besides that.


Truthseer (Ex):Meh. Filler-y.


Distant Hands/Touch (Su): Okay. Well, in combat healing is sub-par, and generally the touch isn't that useful. Doesn't add much.


Steadfast (Ex): Ooh! I can has bonus feat? Eh.


Augmented Smite (Su):The full round thing is very nice. Take charging smite, pounce, and get a haste spell, and at level 11 you're doing 99 bonus damage even if your last attack misses. Also, TN would be great, since in long campaigns, you might know the primary alignment of your enemies. For example, if I were TN and in Savage Tide and i only had smite evil, i'd take smite chaos now, since demons are CE.


Divine Touch (Su):
5 is dang small, considering how commonly you'll be getting bypassed anyway. And TN really becomes awesome here. IF you face all evil guys, get DR 5/good and they'l almost never bypass it.


Outsider’s Touch (Su): So... in an AMF you randomly lose the subtype? Besides that, I don't think this actually does anything, and probably isn't even possible.

Celestial/Fiendish Mount:

At 15th level a Paladin’s mount has gained enough renown in its native plain that the Paladin’s deity grants it the Celestial template if the Paladin is good aligned or the Fiendish template if the Paladin is evil aligned. A Paladin’s mount gets half the number of Smite attempts per day as the Paladin does.


Divine Accolade: That's a fancy name for "bonus feat." Yawn.


Ascension:Timeless body = lame, just flavor
Outsiderness = lame and overdone (Not that my paladin fix doesn't do it too.
DR15 = Not that impressive. And still only good for TN paladins. (choosing good and evil works by RAW. impossible to bypass normally)
Extraordinariness=Pretty useful, I guess.

Overall:

This doesn't really fix the paladins problems. It really just gets him bigger numbers (+2 feats, +cha mod damage on full attacks, +a few smites/day, +1/4 HP, +DR, etc). It doesn't fix the real problems with paladins, but it's definitely a good start.

LingVudka
2010-08-07, 10:49 AM
Ok, thanks FlamingKobold for the quick reply. I was a bit concerned about the TN advantage and am looking at this. I'm also in agreement that it hasn't really changed much so am endeavouring to 'wrecktify' it. :smallwink:


now tabled

Panacea is a Cleric 4, Druid 5 from the SpC, pg152. It's a very nice status removal spell with a little bonus curing (not much) and I thought it's much better than Remove Disease which is really :smallfrown: Panacea doesn't remove ability damage, -ve levels or drain.

cleaned up unnecessary text

amended Ascension, Outsider's Touch, Divine Touch, Steadfast, Truthseer, Distant Hands, Dual Detect and Divine Accolade

Smite is now not based on uses per day at higher levels, I've also amended Augmented Smite to clarify full attack and Smite. :smallsmile:

and I hope I haven't made the Special Mount too overpowering but I like the idea of it being 'adjusted' :smallyuk:

Amended text of various abilities and cleared up Special Mount.



Cheers
:smallbiggrin:

LingVudka
2010-08-09, 06:41 PM
Does nobody else have any comment? :smallfrown:

Do the Paladins look feasible? Playable? Are they competitive with a Tier 4 or perhaps 3 class?

Please?
:smalltongue:

Dilb
2010-08-09, 11:40 PM
I don't really understand why paladins are tier 5 to begin with. Admittedly, it depends on the spells available: core spells are terrible, but some of the added-on spells are awesome. Divine feats also allow for a fair bit of extra situational power, and paladins have always been the party face and beatstick.

In regards to your changes:
1) The abilities are fairly minor, and very confusingly named. Distant touch/divine touch/outsider touch? Seeing as how only one of them involves touching, the others should be renamed. It's perfectly alright to have boring names and a neat explanation

2) Everything until Greater Recurring Smite is useless in combat, so smite is essentially unchanged from 4 to 16. Smiting is the big feature of paladins, so it ought to be roughly as awesome as a barbarian's rage. Until level 19, it really isn't. Distant touch is a better attack when fighting undead, and usable only slightly less often. I'm also not sure what you mean by "Smite still overcomes the relevant DR".

3) Making the mount celestial or whatever is a very small boost. It adds some insignificant SR, a few elemental resistances, and DR/magic: i.e. pretty much worthless. Even making it half-celestial instead would at least add wings, although it's about 10 level after people have gotten used to flying around.

LingVudka
2010-08-10, 02:19 AM
Thanks for the feedback Dilb. :smallsmile:

1) Sorry for any confusing naming. I was intending for the Distant Touch to be from the Paladin's view while the other two being that the Paladin was touched themselves. I like coming up with different names for the abilities so I'll work on those.

2)I agree that the Smite appears underwhelming which is why I gave it the Reliable ability midway and I think Augmented Smite is certainly a step up. Perhaps having the Reliable and Augmented Smite work together like the Paladin gets 3 Smite attacks (as per their BAB) before they have to wait the recharge time? Although I can see that this could get confusing without a clear explanation. I totally agree that Smite is the Paladin's big gun and I want it to stay that way. Regarding overcoming the DR, what I was trying to say was that a Smite Good still overcomes DR/Good and Smtie Law still overcomes DR/Law but I think that's covered in the first thing I stated in the Class description. I think I'm overexplaining here. :smalleek:

3)I guess I was looking too much at the mount stats in the PHB and not at what the rest of the party would have in resources (Fly at 5th, Wind Walk at 11th etc). I was wanting to have some reason for the Paladin to 'want' to use their mount because it's: cool, smart, situationally useful and can attack as well and is also indicative that the Paladin is so obviously an important representative of their god that everyone should heed their gods words (cue holy war). What about the limit on how often the mount can appear? Increasing the frequency? Also I was thinking of having the Paladin able to choose a different type of mount, say at 6th or 9th level, that better reflects their deity: an Undead mount or even a Nightmare for an evil Paladin and a Pegasus for good Paladins or a Dire Animal for Paladins worshipping a nature deity. Then the templates could be added in stages. Sound better? :smallconfused:

LingVudka
2010-08-10, 02:59 AM
Basically, it's a lot like the PHB paladin if you choose crusading cavalryman, and then the healing and good domains. I just made it more customizable and, well, actually useful. Even if you do choose those two domains, you have the same flavor as the original paladin, but more powers.

One primary goal was to make it so that the paladin had options. Hence the once per 5 rounds and once per encounter powers. This adds variance to the paladins combat abilities and makes them useful all day.

Edit: Would you like it better if I renamed it the Champion or something? Or if, instead of domains, made it based on planes and made it some sort of plane-powered class, maybe with plane shifting powers?

That's what I was going for except I was trying to stick fairly close the PHB and UA versions. I love the planar Paladin. That would add a totally different twist on player's perceptions. It would really bug Wizards and Sorcerers (What! Paladin's get Plane Shift (Greater?) earlier than us?! :smallfurious:)

Do you feel you solved your balance issue?

Mystic Muse
2010-08-10, 04:10 AM
I feel like they still don't have a lot of options. Most of their class features only deal damage. You increased lay on hands which is nice but it's still not great.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133737&highlight=tier) is the Paladin I normally use when I can. Smite evil does other things besides damage, it gets an ability it should have had before (Can be used with a ranged attack) and has per encounter rather than per day. The features smite gets are under "greater smite"

Personally, I think a class should make you not want to multi-class or go into a PRC. It should be valid to go all the way to level 20 with the class and that's why I use this one.

I'm going to bed now. I'll answer any questions you may have later.

LingVudka
2010-08-10, 09:10 AM
Thanks Kyuubi, I like the Paladin version you use. But it's a little more powerful than what I was aiming for. I was only going for a Tier 4 build, maybe push it to a very low Tier 3. I think that Surrealistik's Paladin is high Tier 3 pushing into Tier 2. That's fine though and I definitely like it but like I said it's much more powerful than what I was aiming for.

I really like it's Lay on Hands variant and I agree that having some options with Smite is highly useful. I think it might take a bit rejiggery to do something along those lines with my build though. I'll see what I can think of. So far I've just put in Purging Smite and Revealing Vision (oooh fancy names :smallwink:) to mesh with Truthseer. It's not powerful but it's a start.

I am interested in what people think of the capstone and higher level abilities. Also I still really like the idea of giving a unique mount at higher levels. Something on a par with a Ranger's, or even a Druid's (might be pushing it) Animal Companion.

Dilb
2010-08-10, 04:07 PM
3)I guess I was looking too much at the mount stats in the PHB and not at what the rest of the party would have in resources (Fly at 5th, Wind Walk at 11th etc). I was wanting to have some reason for the Paladin to 'want' to use their mount because it's: cool, smart, situationally useful and can attack as well and is also indicative that the Paladin is so obviously an important representative of their god that everyone should heed their gods words (cue holy war). What about the limit on how often the mount can appear? Increasing the frequency? Also I was thinking of having the Paladin able to choose a different type of mount, say at 6th or 9th level, that better reflects their deity: an Undead mount or even a Nightmare for an evil Paladin and a Pegasus for good Paladins or a Dire Animal for Paladins worshipping a nature deity. Then the templates could be added in stages. Sound better? :smallconfused:

Well, the first thing would be making it so that it's not going to keel over every time something hits it. A druid can get a 20 HD tyrannosaurus, buff it with his wide selection of useful spells, and ride around on it all day. If it dies, he can just resurrect it.
In comparison, a paladin gets a 12 HD horse, can't do anything to improve it except give it magical equipment, and if it dies he can't summon it for 30 days and takes a penalty to attacks. So yeah, earlier upgrades, and much better upgrades, and make it less of a penalty to actually use it. A nightmare gives astral projection and etherealness at will, which is sort of weird balance-wise, but flying, and perhaps plane-shifting at higher levels would go a long way to having a reason to use it.

In regards to summoning frequency, what exactly would you abuse it to do if you could summon it at will? Put on a "magic disappearing horse" act? Overload it with treasure you've 'liberated' from a dungeon (these 10 feet tall granite statues have exquisite detail), and call it when you're in town so you don't have to carry it back? I just don't see any reason to limit it ever.

Of course, it's not like the official stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) has good balance when it comes to steeds, so some creativity will be necessary.

LingVudka
2010-08-11, 11:22 AM
Ok, here is what I've got so far for the Mount. I'm just hoping it's not turned into an uber mount like a Druid's super buffed Animal Companion :smalleek:. I don't think it has but opinions are always welcome.

Unless stated otherwise all mount abilities remain unchanged.


{TABLE="head;width=70%"]
Paladin[br] Level | Bonus[br] HD | NA adj. | Ability[br] bonuses | Special
5 | - | +2 | +1 Str/Dex | Empathic Link, Glide, Share Saving Throws
6 | +2 | - | +1 Int | Improved Evasion
7 | - | +4 | +1 Str/Dex | Share Spells
8 | +4 | - | +1 Int | Improved Speed +10ft
9 | - | +6 | +1 Str/Dex | Frequent Summoning, Improved Primary Natural Attack, Toughness
10 | +6 | - | +1 Int | Short Flight
11 | - | +8 | +1 Str/Dex | Template I
12 | +8 | - | +1 Int | Command creatures of its kind, Improved Toughness
13 | - | +10 | +1 Str/Dex | Improved Speed +20ft, Willing Transposition
14 | +10 | - | +1 Int | Full Flight
15 | - | +12 | +1 Str/Dex | Improved Secondary Natural Attack, Combined Toughness
16 | +12 | - | +1 Int | Improved Spell Resistance, Template II
17 | - | +14 | +1 Str/Dex | Constant Summoning
18 | +14 | - | +1 Int | Hover, Improved Speed +30ft
19 | - | +16 | +1 Str/Dex | Greater Natural Attacks
20 | +16 | - | +1 Int | Home Shift
[/TABLE]

The Mount gets an increase in Strength OR Dexterity at each alternate level of the Paladin.

5th
A Paladin's mount has a divine connection that allows it to glide instead of falling (this can be anything from divine empowered wings to the feather fall ability). This is a supernatural ability.

8th
A Paladin's Mount gains an inherent increase to its base land speed by +10ft at 8th, 13th and 18th level.

9th
A Paladin can summon their Special Mount a number of times per day equal to their Paladin levels. The Mount also gains the feat Improved Natural Attack on their primary weapon and the Toughness feat. If it already has Toughness it can choose another feat that it qualifies for.

10th
The Mount can now fly for a short period of time (the thematics of this ability is up to the player) as a supernatural ability.

The number of consecutive rounds of flight is equal to the Mount's Constitution modifier. The maximum duration per day is equal to 1 minute times the class level of the Paladin.

11th
At 11HD the Mount gains a template. This template (Anarchic, Axiomatic, Celestial or Fiendish) is related to the damage reduction gained by the Paladin's Mark of the Divine ability.

12th
The Mount gains Improved Toughness as a bonus feat. If it already has Improved Toughness it can choose another feat that it qualifies for.

13th
At 13th level the Special Mount can switch places with its Paladin as a supernatural ability. This ability is at the choice of the Paladin and works within the distance of the Empathic Link. No line of effect is needed. This is a dimensional effect.

14th
A Paladin's Mount is now able to fly as easily as walking. It's fly speed is equal to it's land speed. This is still a supernatural ability.

15th
The Mount's gains Improved Natural Attack on any secondary attacks they may have. Also the bonuses gained from Toughness and Improved Toughness combine to provide +3 hit points per HD the Mount has. This bonus replaces the original bonuses from the feats.

16th
The Mount now gains a second template related to the Paladin's Augmented Smite ability. Also the Mount's Spell Resistance increases to 10+HD of the Mount.

17th
The Mount can now be summoned at will by their Paladin and there is no duration limit.

18th
The Paladin's Special Mount gains Hover as a bonus feat. If it already has Hover it can choose another feat that it qualifies for.

19th
The Mount gains Improved Natural Attack again but to all of their natural attacks.

20th
A Paladin's Mount can now use Plane Shift as per the spell once per day however the only planes they can go to are the Paladin's native plane and the Mount's native plane. This is a supernatural ability with an effective caster level equal to the Mount's HD.

Also the Mount's flight becomes an extraordinary ability.

-----

I also came up with a way to calculate the starting Paladin level for abilities gained by an unusual Special Mount i.e. the first level at which you could take the unusual mount.

Effective Paladin level = 2 + 1/2 x {HD + CR + (Type Modifier x CR)/HD}

It might seem a little complicated but I think it's fairly accurate for determing power levels of unusual mounts.
The Type Modifier's are:
Aberration = 1
Animal = 1
Dragon = 3
Magical Beast = 2
Outsider = 3
Plant = 1
Undead = 0.5
Vermin = 0.5

Sciffy
2010-09-07, 05:01 AM
So as I said the toher day (yesterday methinks) the multiplier on the damge done by smite is hefty. By the time you can smite every turn at 19th level you're getting 4 attacks at +38 to your damage and earlier its the same story but less frequent. Plus this damage stacks with criting and charge damage with spirited charge and lance (x3) couple with the four times level standard action hit is really powerful (at 15th level its 180 damage with a lance and spirited charge) With the new special mount abilities player's will want to use their mount in combat and will probably have a lance and the appropriate feats. Also the mount sharing half the paladin's resistances is pretty useless since it gets its own when gets it's template.

Sciffy
2010-09-07, 05:07 AM
So as I said the toher day (yesterday methinks) the multiplier on the damge done by smite is hefty. By the time you can smite every turn at 19th level you're getting 4 attacks at +38 to your damage and earlier its the same story but less frequent. Plus this damage stacks with criting and charge damage with spirited charge and lance (x3) couple with the four times level standard action hit is really powerful (at 15th level its 180 damage with a lance and spirited charge) With the new special mount abilities player's will want to use their mount in combat and will probably have a lance and the appropriate feats. Also the mount sharing half the paladin's resistances is pretty useless since it gets its own when gets it's template.

Oh and the airwalk is poor in comparison to the flying ability. I get it was for thematic purposes but in reality it takes a small wind (5mph) to push the airwalker whereas a flier wont be affected until higher wind speeds. Just change the flying ability to *Mount has fly speed equal to land speed (or a set amount cos some creatures have ridiculous land speeds and anyway flying is faster than walking) with average maneuvaribility and the means of the flyign is up to player and DM to decide* this flyign ability can get faster/more maneuvarible at later levels or become extraordinary so it doesn't wink out at the slightest hint of anti magic =P

IcarusWings
2010-09-07, 11:34 AM
The problem with this, is it doesn't give this class anything it can do that is different to what other classes can. A large amount of it seems to be just giving free feats or spell, while this is ok to a small extent,the paladin needs something that only it can do.

Sciffy
2010-09-08, 06:39 AM
The problem with this, is it doesn't give this class anything it can do that is different to what other classes can. A large amount of it seems to be just giving free feats or spell, while this is ok to a small extent,the paladin needs something that only it can do.

I see your point, but wasn't the paladin just supposed to be a sort of battle cleric? Like some bishops in mediaeval europe? (love those crazy bishops lol) in the PHB they just get some smity things which is special damage which it still has. The special mount is sort of unique and lay on hands?

IcarusWings
2010-09-08, 10:38 AM
the smite damage isn't really unique, any class and their mother can get a bonus to damage. The mount can't really do anything that an animal companion can't except for planeshift, and that is still just the paladin emulating a spell. Lay on Hands is also pretty bogstandard healing.

Mystic Muse
2010-09-08, 10:43 AM
You need to change the HD gains in the table. Unless the Paladin mount randomly gains and loses the Hit dice the bonus should be the sum of the previous bonuses plus the new bonus.

I'll critique the actual class later. I'm a little busy right now.