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View Full Version : What do y'all think of the Ardent?



Xephalo
2010-08-07, 12:31 AM
While perusing Complete Psionic today, i came across the Ardent. Upon first glance, i got a "psionic cleric" vibe, but was otherwise unsure exactly what to make of it. so i have a couple of questions:

1. How is the Ardent power-wise in a low to mid optimization game?
2. What roles in the party is an Ardent capable of fulfilling?
3. What are decent Mantle choices for an Ardent?

Thank you all in advance for any help.

Urpriest
2010-08-07, 12:35 AM
Ardents make good gishes, and generally mutliclass much better than other psionic characters. This is because they have no maximum power level known, so with the Practiced Manifester feat they can learn powers as if they were four levels higher (up to their HD). They make great Tashalatora builds for instance.

Noodles2375
2010-08-07, 12:44 AM
It's a great class, it has flexible choices in developing its power list, it gets a ton of PP's and the weapon/armor profs to serve much like a cleric.

Be aware that it is a high tier 3/low tier 2 full manifesting class, so if you are moderately optimizing and the rest of your party is playing not-so-optimized fighters, rogues, soulknives etc you'll probably may outshine people.

As far as role filling, your mantle choice goes a long way here. You can set up an Ardent to do some blasting, buffing, healing, battlefield control, utility powers all based on their mantle choices. A good idea might be to check out what the rest of your party member's strengths are and use this as a guide to choice your mantles and powers to shore up party weaknesses or build intra-party synergy.

The freedom mantle has some sweet movement related powers. Destruction/Energy are very fun for blasting. Time/Planes have some very useful higher level powers.

Draz74
2010-08-07, 12:49 AM
1. How is the Ardent power-wise in a low to mid optimization game?
2. What roles in the party is an Ardent capable of fulfilling?
3. What are decent Mantle choices for an Ardent?

1. With low optimization, it kind of sucks. Great flavor (a Cleric-type that actually has to select spells known according to themes? Yes!), but easy to end up with a lot of useless Powers. With mid-optimization, it's not bad; generally considered "Tier 3." (With high optimization, mainly involving a couple of crazy-good alternate class features from online articles, it climbs up to "Tier 2.")

2. An Ardent can sort of be forced into the battlefield-control/batman/blaster role or the healer/support role. In fact, I'm rather a fan of using it as a healer. But it's not great at either of these, especially with low optimization. It works best and most easily in the tank role, as a gish-type.

3. Check out the Ardent Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5871.5). Conflict, Creation, Fate, Freedom, Magic, The Planes, and Time are the strongest mantles. I'm also fond of Physical Power, which is not as strong as the above but still pretty good.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-07, 01:07 AM
The Ardent sold out, man.

It used to be cool, then it went all mainstream and now... now I just don't know.

<.<

Escheton
2010-08-07, 05:49 AM
We still got the lurk, they will forever hide out in the underground scene.

I keep forgetting the name of that (self)healer psionic prestigeclass from the online articles, but it goes great with ardents.

Greenish
2010-08-07, 06:55 AM
I keep forgetting the name of that (self)healer psionic prestigeclass from the online articles, but it goes great with ardents.Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c)?

Escheton
2010-08-07, 06:58 AM
Thats the one. Makes the ardent even more of a psionic cleric.

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-07, 09:39 AM
Great for multiclassers because it's Power Known are based on Character level rather than Class level, meaning you get more high level powers.

Admittedly this is limited by your minimal PP reserve, but it's still better than having to be capped at mid level powers if you go into a theurge class.

Adumbration
2010-08-07, 09:51 AM
I've never had the chance to play them at a real game, but I've always liked the concept and the mechanics behind the class, maybe even over Psion and the ilk.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-07, 10:00 AM
The Ardent's awesome. The Ardent is how Psionics should handle an alignment-based class. The Divine Mind is just hideously awful.

Alcopop
2010-08-07, 10:01 AM
One of my favorite classes hands down.

Currently playing an 11th level in a friends campaign. lots of fun. Makes for a fantastic blaster.

Best when you can switch out thematically similar powers.

Adumbration
2010-08-07, 10:08 AM
The Ardent's awesome. The Ardent is how Psionics should handle an alignment-based class. The Soulmind is just hideously awful.

I think you just combined there two awful classes - the Soulborn and the Divine mind. :smalltongue:

I wonder, if both of their class features were bundled together, would they make a decent class?

sonofzeal
2010-08-07, 02:38 PM
I think you just combined there two awful classes - the Soulborn and the Divine mind. :smalltongue:

I wonder, if both of their class features were bundled together, would they make a decent class?

Power-wise, probably. But it'd be horribly unweildy and require a heck of a lot of bookkeeping to keep straight.

Kylarra
2010-08-07, 02:44 PM
Dominant Ideal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) and the right mantles push it up to tier 2, iirc.

Escheton
2010-08-08, 12:25 AM
Great for multiclassers because it's Power Known are based on Character level rather than Class level, meaning you get more high level powers.

Admittedly this is limited by your minimal PP reserve, but it's still better than having to be capped at mid level powers if you go into a theurge class.

wait, I am reading the class again and missing how this would work out.
How is it based on characterlvl when the class gives you more powers know?

Or do you simply mean that with dips you might have less powers know, but still have the highest powers available to you if you take practised manifester?

Terazul
2010-08-08, 12:29 AM
wait, I am reading the class again and missing how this would work out.
How is it based on characterlvl when the class gives you more powers know?

The level of the powers available, however, are based on manifester level, not class level.

Draz74
2010-08-08, 12:34 AM
Power-wise, probably. But it'd be horribly unweildy and require a heck of a lot of bookkeeping to keep straight.
Besides being unwieldy, I still don't think a gestalt Soulborn//Divine Mind would be that powerful. High tier 4?


Or do you simply mean that with dips you might have less powers know, but still have the highest powers available to you if you take practised manifester?

Yep, you got it.

ex cathedra
2010-08-08, 02:30 AM
Dominant Ideal is pretty fantastic normally, but it gets ridiculous with Linked Power.

Ardents are really good, and quite versatile.

Escheton
2010-08-08, 02:39 AM
Praktised manifester is widely used homebrew though isnt it? Just taking praktised spellcaster and making it apply to manifesterlvl instead.

Making this an odd type of abuse at best.

Or have they actually printed the feat?

olentu
2010-08-08, 02:41 AM
Praktised manifester is widely used homebrew though isnt it? Just taking praktised spellcaster and making it apply to manifesterlvl instead.

Making this an odd type of abuse at best.

Or have they actually printed the feat?

Complete psionic P. 57 at the least.

Escheton
2010-08-08, 02:52 AM
It specifically states that it does not effect your powers known. Only your manifester level for overcoming PR and duration and other effects of your powers.

2xMachina
2010-08-08, 03:40 AM
Ardent says that you know powers that you can manifest.

And you can manifest it if your manifester level is high enough.

So, Ardent 1/X4 has ML of 5, which means it can manifest 3rd lvl powers. Which means it can pick up 3rd lvl powers.

It's the Ardent powers known that is weird, not the feat. Other classes do not get this trick.

Escheton
2010-08-08, 03:49 AM
You cant't manifest it, you can increase the powers you know to that level.
Big difference. You don't have a higher manifesterlevel, only a effective one for certain effects.
As such, ardent wording does not allow this trick.

olentu
2010-08-08, 04:03 AM
You cant't manifest it, you can increase the powers you know to that level.
Big difference. You don't have a higher manifesterlevel, only a effective one for certain effects.
As such, ardent wording does not allow this trick.

Hold on a sec there it is actual manifester level as far as I can recall as I do not remember the word effective used in the feat. Now perhaps there are additional restrictions that preclude the trick and perhaps there are not but the manifester level increase is a manifester level increase if I am not forgetting any wording.

Escheton
2010-08-08, 04:06 AM
Yeah, good point. It does simply increase your manifesterlvl and it then lists what that does and does not apply too.

Seems this would work. Seeing an ardent must only be able to manifest it at the lvl that she learned it. 5 pp for a lvl 5 ardent and such. And cant learn higher unless you reach a lvl that can manifest that cost.

Though I am sure they mean base cost and as such you can't do this. But hey, RAW and RAI are 2 distinctly different things it seems.

Draz74
2010-08-08, 10:21 AM
Though I am sure they mean base cost and as such you can't do this. But hey, RAW and RAI are 2 distinctly different things it seems.

Well, this is one place where I don't think the RAW is a bad thing even where it doesn't match RAI. The whole system could afford to be a little more multiclass-friendly, at least where casters are concerned. And Ardents who want to dip other classes and still get high-level powers still have to sacrifice a feat, some PP, and some Powers Known.

Which I guess leads to the main point: "abusing" these lines from the rules doesn't really make Ardents overpowered. If anything makes Ardents overpowered (i.e. if Tier 2 is overpowered in your games), it's the Mind's Eye Alternate Class Features (Dominant Ideal and Mantle Power-Swapping).

Escheton
2010-08-08, 02:44 PM
How does this trick interact with prestigeclasses that add +1 level of existing manifesting class?

how about the Sangehirn? Which chooses powers know from it's own list.

Keld Denar
2010-08-08, 04:42 PM
If you got a +1 Existing Manifester Level PrC, it would give you everything you'd get from an Ardent, except the actual class features. So...you'd get +1 ML, you'd get +1 Power Known (chosen from one of the mantles you already have), and...thats it. You wouldn't gain any new mantles, you wouldn't gain your Ardent BAB, Saves, HD, or skill points, but instead those of the +1 Existing PrC.

The cool thing though, is if you went say...Ardent5/Slayer10/Ardent+5, with Practiced Manifester, you'd still get your 1st 9th level power known at 17, instead of 18 like a Psion would. Oh, and you'd only have the mantles of 10th level Ardent, so your versatility would be reduced a little, but not enough if you pick the better Mantles (like the above mentioned Conflict, Creation, Fate, Freedom, Magic, The Planes, and Time).

Greenish
2010-08-08, 05:08 PM
So...you'd get +1 ML, you'd get +1 Power Known (chosen from one of the mantles you already have), and...thats it.And power points. :smallcool:

Nero24200
2010-08-08, 05:38 PM
Mehcnically I'd say it's probably one of the better balanced "caster" classes. I also like how it has to pick spells based on theme (unlike say...the cleric, who will get the same spell list regardless of domains picked).

Having said that I'm not a big fan of the fluff aspect of the class, which is a sort of psionic-divine magic hybrid. Having said that if I was to try and replace certain classes in an attempt to get better balance I'd ditch the cleric for the ardent in a heartbeat and remove the psionic fluff.

Draz74
2010-08-09, 01:21 AM
how about the Sangehirn? Which chooses powers know from it's own list.

The Sangehirn is an odd duck no matter what class you use to enter it.

An Ardent/Sangehirn, at each Sangehirn level (except the first) would gain Power Points as an Ardent; would gain a new Manifester Level; and would gain a new power known, selected from the Sangehirn list (with a maximum power level dependent on Manifester Level, which could be different depending on other dips or the Practiced Manifester feat.

Cadian 9th
2010-08-09, 06:28 PM
While perusing Complete Psionic today, i came across the Ardent. Upon first glance, i got a "psionic cleric" vibe, but was otherwise unsure exactly what to make of it. so i have a couple of questions:

1. How is the Ardent power-wise in a low to mid optimization game?
2. What roles in the party is an Ardent capable of fulfilling?
3. What are decent Mantle choices for an Ardent?

Thank you all in advance for any help.

Highly optimized ardent works well. He works particularly well in Gestalt due to his Wis based powers and passive mantles.

In particular, his powers are pretty good, e.g. Elemental Steward, and the level you get certain powers it is good, e.g. Call weaponry, and more.