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iDM
2010-08-07, 02:17 PM
Some of my players have wondered, and I've been thinking about this. Are there rules for characters researching new spells in 4e? I haven't found any in the core rulebooks, but maybe there's a supplement that can help. If anyone has found some, could you refer me to the book or website they were on? I don't need specifics- general guidelines would do fine.

And as a side note, would the rules be applicable to martial classes' powers as well?

super dark33
2010-08-07, 02:20 PM
well, i dont think there is any, but it would be cool ,or not, its supposed to be like monster making: hard work.

FoE
2010-08-07, 02:25 PM
I'm not aware of any rules for researching new spells.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-07, 02:27 PM
There aren't any; the standard approach is to take an existing power of the proper class and level, and change its fluff.

iDM
2010-08-07, 02:30 PM
Hmmm. Too bad. Oh well, thanks anyway guys.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-07, 03:16 PM
There aren't rules for it because it isn't really something that you should consider yourself entitled to.

But I'm sure most of the designers would more than endorse the idea of player and DM sitting down together and scratching up something cool.

Balance it against other powers available, and I'd personally reccommend sticking to the concept of the class where it is possible, but as long as the power you come up with is something the DM and PC are happy with, it's all good.

You might want to consider consulting page 42 and the guidelines for creating NPC's and Monsters and so on, to give you a little more idea of more-or-less how it works, but inside your own game I wouldn't worry so much about Balance or 'Correct by the Rules'.

:smallsmile:

iDM
2010-08-07, 03:21 PM
That makes sense; I was really pushing my PC wizard to let me help him make up his spell, so now I can just show him this and say I have backup. :smallamused:

Kurald Galain
2010-08-07, 03:27 PM
That makes sense; I was really pushing my PC wizard to let me help him make up his spell, so now I can just show him this and say I have backup. :smallamused:

Or, post what he wants the spell to do, and I'm sure the forum will be happy to give suggestions on how to implement it.

iDM
2010-08-07, 03:55 PM
Or, post what he wants the spell to do, and I'm sure the forum will be happy to give suggestions on how to implement it.

Well, I asked him. I think he's insane now, but here it is: he wants to be able to summon pillars of stone out of the ground, which then topple and make a sort of burst attack, possibly with a sonic element.

So, what does the forum think of that?

-----edit-----
Cool names would be appreciated.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-07, 03:57 PM
what does he want it to be? At will? Encounter? Daily?

Seems like an Okay concept, in theory. Single target ranged attack (some damage and knock prone perhaps) with a secondary burst - 1 for lowish damage seems the general shape, but it depends on the level and so on I'd say.

(If it's a central part of the character concept, I'd suggest a piddly little version as at-will with one pillar, and a later daily like that magic-missile-spam daily)

iDM
2010-08-07, 04:04 PM
what does he want it to be? At will? Encounter? Daily?

Seems like an Okay concept, in theory. Single target ranged attack (some damage and knock prone perhaps) with a secondary burst - 1 for lowish damage seems the general shape, but it depends on the level and so on I'd say.

(If it's a central part of the character concept, I'd suggest a piddly little version as at-will with one pillar, and a later daily like that magic-missile-spam daily)

He's 5th level, so probably 5th level daily or 3rd level encounter. He wants it to deal a lot of damage, so 5th level daily seems more likely. Also, he thinks that having it able to summon more pillars at higher tiers would be interesting-or maybe just having higher-level versions that make more pillars.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-07, 04:11 PM
he wants to be able to summon pillars of stone out of the ground, which then topple and make a sort of burst attack, possibly with a sonic element.

Rite of the Collapsing Temple (wizard daily, level 9, conjuration)
Standard action, close burst 5.
Target: up to 4 non-adjacent unoccopied squares in burst.
Effect: You conjure a pillar in each square. The pillars are blocking terrain and block line of sight. The pillars last until the end of your next turn.
Sustain minor: The effect persists. When you sustain the power, you may make the following attack using one of the pillars as the origin square. If you do, remove that pillar.
Close blast 3, target all creatures in blast.
Attack: intelligence vs. reflex
Hit: 2d10 + intelligence modifier damage, and the target falls prone.
Miss: 1d10 + intelligence modifier damage.
Effect: the area of the blast is difficult terrain until the end of the encounter.

iDM
2010-08-07, 04:20 PM
Rite of the Collapsing Temple (wizard daily, level 9, conjuration)
Standard action, close burst 5.
Target: up to 4 non-adjacent unoccopied squares in burst.
Effect: You conjure a pillar in each square. The pillars are blocking terrain and block line of sight. The pillars last until the end of your next turn.
Sustain minor: The effect persists. When you sustain the power, you may make the following attack using one of the pillars as the origin square. If you do, remove that pillar.
Close blast 3, target all creatures in blast.
Attack: intelligence vs. reflex
Hit: 2d10 + intelligence modifier damage, and the target falls prone.
Miss: 1d10 + intelligence modifier damage.
Effect: the area of the blast is difficult terrain until the end of the encounter.

Wow. That's pretty good. Thanks, I'll send him a link! Do you think researching it should cost XP?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-08-07, 05:00 PM
Wow. That's pretty good. Thanks, I'll send him a link! Do you think researching it should cost XP?Nah, gold.

iDM
2010-08-07, 05:13 PM
Nah, gold.

Yeah, that makes more sense- there really aren't any things that cost XP in 4e.

NecroRebel
2010-08-07, 05:16 PM
Wow. That's pretty good. Thanks, I'll send him a link! Do you think researching it should cost XP?

Nothing in 4E costs XP, so it should either A) cost gold, or B) just let him take it as one of his appropriate-level daily powers, just as he would with any other daily, retraining if necessary. Probably the latter, actually, since that's kinda what new powers are; learning new techniques or spells.

I do feel that I should question some things about that power, especially "how tall are the pillars," "can the pillars be stood on top of," and "how difficult are the pillars to climb?" While the close burst AoE kinda limits its usefulness for this purpose, it's entirely possible that the party might occasionally want to use it to provide convenient stepping-stones over a chasm or a makeshift ladder or somesuch.

Edit: Oh, and that power should also have the Arcane and Implement keywords, just to be proper and specific about these things :smallwink:

iDM
2010-08-07, 05:29 PM
Nothing in 4E costs XP, so it should either A) cost gold, or B) just let him take it as one of his appropriate-level daily powers, just as he would with any other daily, retraining if necessary. Probably the latter, actually, since that's kinda what new powers are; learning new techniques or spells.

I do feel that I should question some things about that power, especially "how tall are the pillars," "can the pillars be stood on top of," and "how difficult are the pillars to climb?" While the close burst AoE kinda limits its usefulness for this purpose, it's entirely possible that the party might occasionally want to use it to provide convenient stepping-stones over a chasm or a makeshift ladder or somesuch.

Edit: Oh, and that power should also have the Arcane and Implement keywords, just to be proper and specific about these things :smallwink:

Hmmm... 20 feet? That would be enough to fill the blast squares without being ridiculously tall. Maybe an Athletics DC of 15 (or 20 if the caster doesn't want the pillars to be climbable)?

Kurald Galain
2010-08-08, 06:13 AM
Wow. That's pretty good. Thanks, I'll send him a link!
Thanks :smallredface:

I don't think spell research (or indeed anything else) should cost XP in 4E. I would suggest requiring the character visit a library and spend some time researching, assuming your campaign has downtime.

I'd say the pillars are four squares tall, which is also the height for most wall spells. Climbing should follow the regular rules for climbing and needn't be detailed in the spell description.

And yeah, the spell needs arcane and implement keywords; but I consider those to be rather silly because every wizard attack spell has those keywords.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-08, 11:12 AM
I must agree, Kurald. That's pretty good stuff.
Didn't WotC have a 'Submit stuff!' section or link somewhere? :)