Battlefield control tips?

[WarKitty]

I'm playing a druid starting at level 3. I'll looking to be the party summoner/battlefield controller. We have a lot of ranged attackers. Any good tips on how to fulfill this control roll? I have really no experience with battlefield control in a game.

Edit: ok sounds like a better question would be, is battlefield control even useful in a party that has no idea of tactics beyond "go hit the closest monster"?

[Marnath]

Entangle is an obvious one, obscuring mist and solid fog are good, but they might be just as hard on your guys as the enemy. Woodshape probably lets you set up a tactical advantage in the proper environment, assuming you have time to prepare. Then there's sending your companion to flank for your heavy hitter.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm playing a druid starting at level 3. I'll looking to be the party summoner/battlefield controller. We have a lot of ranged attackers. Any good tips on how to fulfill this control roll? I have really no experience with battlefield control in a game.

Well, presumably through good selection of spells and some summoning? Entangle is good, or Obscuring Mist, or Obscuring Snow, or Briar Web, or Fog Cloud or Gust of Wind. Any spells that cause status effects -- dazzle, blind, sickened, nauseated, stunned, dazed, etc. Any spell that grapples or entangles people is good. Summoning grapplers with Nature's Ally is good.

Basically look around here:

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/FindSpell.php

[Eldariel]

What sources are you working with? Transmute Rock to Mud is a respectable Lvl 2 option, to augment Entangle. Beyond that you're looking at a bit more obscure options.

[WarKitty]

I'm not looking at spell selection so much. It's just, last game every time I tried a battlefield control spell it ended up damaging my allies more than my enemies.

[Marnath]

Hmm...sounds like a tactical issue. Make sure your team knows (IC and OOC) what the plan is and where you're dropping spells so they don't get caught.

[AslanCross]

I'm not looking at spell selection so much. It's just, last game every time I tried a battlefield control spell it ended up damaging my allies more than my enemies.

Yeah, work out your tactics with your friends beforehand. If it comes down to it, have them delay until after your turn.

[WarKitty]

Yeah, work out your tactics with your friends beforehand. If it comes down to it, have them delay until after your turn.

Tactics? I'm not even sure what tactics to use here? Like I'll try to cast entangle, but then everything ends up placed so the melee fighters have to go through the entangle area to get to the monsters. Usually everything can make its saving throw as well.

How do I even do things so I don't prevent the melee fighters from approaching?

[Marnath]

Maybe you should focus on using a whole bunch of summons then? Wolves are great for imobilizing people due to improved trip. If you really do have trouble with the area of effect stuff, maybe use it to nail down groups on the fringe like archers, somewhere where your melee can reach the other baddies while your ranged shoot the helpless people stuck in the entangle/fog?

[WarKitty]

Maybe you should focus on using a whole bunch of summons then? Wolves are great for imobilizing people due to improved trip. If you really do have trouble with the area of effect stuff, maybe use it to nail down groups on the fringe like archers, somewhere where your melee can reach the other baddies while your ranged shoot the helpless people stuck in the entangle/fog?

Yeah looking at that. Basically I just keep hearing that battlefield control is something druids are really good at, and it sounds like fun, but I'm not sure what it actually entails in practice. I have the basic idea of what spells are supposed to work...but it never does. (Also freaking everything can make the entangle save.)

[Eldariel]

The idea is to stop opponents and pepper them at range. Or stop part of opponents and take out the free ones. Or lock 'em at the edge of Entangle and go to town on their face.

[Paul H]

Hi

I always found that Beguilers are better Battlefield Controllers.

1) Colour Spray, Hypnotism, Obscuring Mist, Sleep
2) Blinding Colour Surge, Daze monster, Glitterdust, Hypnotic Pattern, Invis, Silence, Vertigo, Whelming Burst

And so on.
(Though my favourite, Grease, isn't in there..).

Druids make good summoners, use those to support your group. Large groups of enemies can be singled with Entangles, Fog Couds, etc, to be dealt with later.

Later, take the feat that allows you to cast spells in Wild Shape (Eagle Form), and just Call Lightning down on them.

Cheers
Paul H

[WarKitty]

Hi

I always found that Beguilers are better Battlefield Controllers.

1) Colour Spray, Hypnotism, Obscuring Mist, Sleep
2) Blinding Colour Surge, Daze monster, Glitterdust, Hypnotic Pattern, Invis, Silence, Vertigo, Whelming Burst

And so on.
(Though my favourite, Grease, isn't in there..).

Druids make good summoners, use those to support your group. Large groups of enemies can be singled with Entangles, Fog Couds, etc, to be dealt with later.

Later, take the feat that allows you to cast spells in Wild Shape (Eagle Form), and just Call Lightning down on them.

Cheers
Paul H

Don't think we're allowed non-core classes. Anyways, just curious, I'm building a primary summoner (which I do know how to do) and just wanted a bit of help on battlefield control on the side.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's how it works. First, the group has to *generally* not start combat when they are in the midst of you guys. Make sure someone has decent spot / listen checks, and such. Then, make sure you have a high initiative score. Then, while still far away, entangle as many of the enemies that you can. Some will save, some won't, but regardless, it will take lots of enemies out of the fight, and let your melee guys (ESPECIALLY if they have reach or ranged options, which melee guys usually should... seeing as how it is one of the most powerful tools in the game and has little to no downside...) attack the enemies without all of them being able to engage you guys. Or drop some summons that have good grapple, and have them grapple half the bad guys, taking half of them out of the fight for a while.

As far as battlefield control in core via summoning...

wolf: trip
crocodile: grapple
dire wolf: trip
brown bear: grapple
giant crocodile: grapple
tiger: grapple /rake
dire bear: grapple
earth elemental: grapple

[WarKitty]

Here's how it works. First, the group has to *generally* not start combat when they are in the midst of you guys. Make sure someone has decent spot / listen checks, and such. Then, make sure you have a high initiative score. Then, while still far away, entangle as many of the enemies that you can. Some will save, some won't, but regardless, it will take lots of enemies out of the fight, and let your melee guys (ESPECIALLY if they have reach or ranged options, which melee guys usually should... seeing as how it is one of the most powerful tools in the game and has little to no downside...) attack the enemies without all of them being able to engage you guys. Or drop some summons that have good grapple, and have them grapple half the bad guys, taking half of them out of the fight for a while.

As far as battlefield control in core via summoning...

wolf: trip
crocodile: grapple
dire wolf: trip
brown bear: grapple
giant crocodile: grapple
tiger: grapple /rake
dire bear: grapple
earth elemental: grapple

Ok there's the problem. Even when we use spot/listen checks we start combat with them in the midst of us. Most of our players refuse to initiate combat when there's any chance of talking things down or having them just avoid us.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get the feat Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Faerun, it can be taken at level 1. That adds the Greenbound template to every animal you summon, which allows them to use Entangle at will and Wall of Thorns once/day as spell-like abilities. A Summon Nature's Ally I can get a Greenbound Dire Rat which can drop two 10-by-10-by-5-foot blocks of thorny terrain into enemies' squares, which lasts 10 minutes or 100 combat rounds even after the summoned creature disappears. Use that to separate groups of enemies, many will be trapped in the thorns and forced to either suffer extensive damage escaping or just sit out for the duration of the spell. Either way, it neutralizes several creatures' ability to harm the party for at least a few rounds, and deals initial damage when cast into their squares. Summon Nature's Ally II can get 1d3 Greenbound Dire Rats, each of which can use that to affect an even greater area and number of opponents.

[WarKitty]

Get the feat Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Faerun, it can be taken at level 1. That adds the Greenbound template to every animal you summon, which allows them to use Entangle at will and Wall of Thorns once/day as spell-like abilities. A Summon Nature's Ally I can get a Greenbound Dire Rat which can drop two 10-by-10-by-5-foot blocks of thorny terrain into enemies' squares, which lasts 10 minutes or 100 combat rounds even after the summoned creature disappears. Use that to separate groups of enemies, many will be trapped in the thorns and forced to either suffer extensive damage escaping or just sit out for the duration of the spell. Either way, it neutralizes several creatures' ability to harm the party for at least a few rounds, and deals initial damage when cast into their squares. Summon Nature's Ally II can get 1d3 Greenbound Dire Rats, each of which can use that to affect an even greater area and number of opponents.

Not allowed in the campaign.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ok there's the problem. Even when we use spot/listen checks we start combat with them in the midst of us. Most of our players refuse to initiate combat when there's any chance of talking things down or having them just avoid us.

Well, that's not quite realistic, necessarily. Look very very closely at spot and listen rules, and flat footed rules, initiative rules and such -- is it the case that EVERYTHING ALWAYS gets the drop on you and gets to choose the range of engagement *every single time* you enter combat? Combat always starts at "in your face" distance? Is the DM arbitrarily making it so, or is he giving you the chance that your abilities actually allow to change the range of engagement?

Perhaps you should talk to the DM about this, and maybe look at the various methods of spotting/sensing/hearing/knowing that some things are going to fight you, BEFORE they get close? There are many, many, many ways to do so, assuming the DM isn't ignoring those rules... Plenty of ways of automatically knowing if most types of creatures get within 60 feet of you, for example.


Also, if the characters are always ambushed, ALL the time, and are never able to ambush others or realize there is an enemy from far away and close to engagement distance.... why haven't they realized that maybe they aren't good at this fighting thing and retired from adventuring?

Or are you always fighting in enclosed spaces for some reason? It's certainly possible to play D&D and ignore the first D as much as possible, because fighting in enclosed spaces UNIVERSALLY SUCKS. Just choose, as characters, to not go after things that require you to CHOOSE to go fight in enclosed spaces. Eventually the DM will get the idea...

And does talking people down ever work? Are you all using the diplomacy rules or just RPing it? Generally, in D&D by the rules, there are a LOT of methods of, if someone is approaching you to parley, to make it so they won't attack you. Period. Diplomacy and the various charm things are THAT POWERFUL. Make use of the many many effects that compel folk to not attack you. And if you are negotiating, do it in the open, under flag of parley, from a DISTANCE, if you don't trust them. You all can yell to each other, no need to let your guard down...

[olentu]

Ok there's the problem. Even when we use spot/listen checks we start combat with them in the midst of us. Most of our players refuse to initiate combat when there's any chance of talking things down or having them just avoid us.

Letting a possible enemy take an incredibly advantageous tactical position during negotiations seems like a really bad idea. It could not hurt to try pointing this out.

[WarKitty]

Well, that's not quite realistic, necessarily. Look very very closely at spot and listen rules, and flat footed rules, initiative rules and such -- is it the case that EVERYTHING ALWAYS gets the drop on you and gets to choose the range of engagement *every single time* you enter combat? Combat always starts at "in your face" distance? Is the DM arbitrarily making it so, or is he giving you the chance that your abilities actually allow to change the range of engagement?

Perhaps you should talk to the DM about this, and maybe look at the various methods of spotting/sensing/hearing/knowing that some things are going to fight you, BEFORE they get close? There are many, many, many ways to do so, assuming the DM isn't ignoring those rules... Plenty of ways of automatically knowing if most types of creatures get within 60 feet of you, for example.


Also, if the characters are always ambushed, ALL the time, and are never able to ambush others or realize there is an enemy from far away and close to engagement distance.... why haven't they realized that maybe they aren't good at this fighting thing and retired from adventuring?

Or are you always fighting in enclosed spaces for some reason? It's certainly possible to play D&D and ignore the first D as much as possible, because fighting in enclosed spaces UNIVERSALLY SUCKS. Just choose, as characters, to not go after things that require you to CHOOSE to go fight in enclosed spaces. Eventually the DM will get the idea...

And does talking people down ever work? Are you all using the diplomacy rules or just RPing it? Generally, in D&D by the rules, there are a LOT of methods of, if someone is approaching you to parley, to make it so they won't attack you. Period. Diplomacy and the various charm things are THAT POWERFUL. Make use of the many many effects that compel folk to not attack you. And if you are negotiating, do it in the open, under flag of parley, from a DISTANCE, if you don't trust them. You all can yell to each other, no need to let your guard down...

No, we do see stuff from far enough away, we just always end up talking to it. Although yes we do end up in enclosed spaces a lot. Usually we just RP it, although I have somewhat successfully petitioned the DM for a change in the way that works so you do have to actually roll diplomacy.

[Gavinfoxx]

Has diplomacy ever worked, in talking down an encounter, ever? In your group?

Here are some of the OOOLLLLDDD diplomacy record setter builds. Look at them for ideas...

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416112732/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-163146

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115159/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-371519

http://web.archive.org/web/20080415064621/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-452425

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416121352/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-520451

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416121423/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-526536

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416122711/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-659348

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416122757/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-684349

Here are some of the diplomacy skills:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

Look at that epic chart... with enough diplomacy, you can, without fail, using a very rushed check, simply make anything that can understand what you say and is currently trying to kill you, into a fanatic for you....

[AdamSmasher]

In addition to these other things, see if you can get a copy of frostburn. That book has some FANTASTIC crowd control spells for druids. You start up a blizzard over your enemies, then blind them, entangle them, bury them, damage them, and ruin their listen checks all with about three spells. Then there's a ton of other spells to let you ruin their lives while they're inside.

When you start crowd controlling, you have your ranged attackers go crazy on them while they're trapped. Your melee guys stand outside the crowd control areas and mug the guys who manage to get out.

Tell your melees not to run inside the entanglements and damaging areas, let the ranged attackers have those guys. Or tell your melees to pull out bows of their own. If they don't want to have to switch, there are elvencraft bows (Just +300 gold to the cost) that also function as quarterstaves, meaning they can choose to whop a guy in melee OR shoot at him with the same weapon.

[Gavinfoxx]

So, uh, why is it that you all always try talking to things? Do the players think that is what being Good means?? That's kinda the definition of "Stupid Good", unless you are always talking from a position of strength...

"We can try talking to the ankheg/gelatenous cube / bandit raiders / black dragon / unseelie fey / orc barbarians / etc.! What could possibly go wrong?"

[WarKitty]

So, uh, why is it that you all always try talking to things? Do the players think that is what being Good means?? That's kinda the definition of "Stupid Good", unless you are always talking from a position of strength...

"We can try talking to the ankheg/gelatenous cube / bandit raiders / black dragon / unseelie fey / orc barbarians / etc.! What could possibly go wrong?"

It does work a fair amount of the time. Which personally is incredibly boring. Although I don't think we quite follow the normal diplomacy rules (which is fair imo, the bard shouldn't be able to talk the dragon down no matter what unless she has something to offer).

[Panigg]

Thats why the diplomacy rules in 3.5 suck. There is an alternative ruleset for diplomacy which is quite good.

Basically it says that you "trade" things. Either actual goods or favors. If the favor or good is acceptable to the npc you get a plus on your check. If the npcs don't like what you have to offer you get minus. If you make the check anyway you get a good deal.

[Snake-Aes]

Don't think we're allowed non-core classes. Anyways, just curious, I'm building a primary summoner (which I do know how to do) and just wanted a bit of help on battlefield control on the side.

Summoned creatures are good for that...flanking, tripping and grappling their hearts out. Soaking damage too.

And on control spells: tactics, man! Simply put: plan ahead. Tell your mates "hey, when I shout the alert, move here because that big area will be nasty".

[ericgrau]

Flaming sphere isn't control, but it is a great spell to use at low levels (and ditch after you level up a couple times or so). Good control spells listed below:

Level 1: Entangle
Level 2: Soften earth and stone
Level 3: *plant growth, *sleet storm, maybe spike growth
Level 4: maybe spike stones
Level 5: transmute rock to mud, *wall of thorns
Level 6: *wall of stone

There are basically two types: area slows / stops and barriers. Both divide the enemy into smaller more manageable groups, effectively dropping the encounter CR tremendously. I prefer the spells with no save, marked with a *.