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SonOfJubilex
2010-08-07, 05:23 PM
I have a PC who is a Drow Archivist and hates combat, often to frustrating levels with the players. I want to induce a bit of character drama to the campaign.

The player is a heavy roleplayer, so much so that he has an accent and everything. Ironically, the Drow he is playing has a thick french accent.

Anyways, his character has a twin sister, who is the High Priestess in Menzannine. She is the same level as him, just an NPC. The campaign is focused around a Half-Vashar Half-Vistani who was raised among orcs. He has taken over and plans to raise a long dead Demon: Orcus (yeah, in my campaign, Orcus was slain by 5 heroes).

I want him to see his sister skewered on a pike, her intestines spilled, ect.

How should I play this off and how should he react? Basically, take a situation and react as both a player and DM

Rixx
2010-08-07, 05:28 PM
Give him the chance, however slim (but real), to stop it.

Marnath
2010-08-07, 05:29 PM
I'm not a big fan of hurting the people in the PC's lives because it just encourages them to all be lonely orphans, and that gets pretty boring after a while. As far as introducing some drama, she doesn't have to be dead, maybe she's been abducted. Yeah that gets done to death too, but at least ou can have the Hollywood happy ending afterwards.

*edit This is assuming he loves her. If she's like 98% of the female drow npc's ever written, she's probably a huge witch who no one likes and hates males.

The_JJ
2010-08-07, 05:30 PM
Start with a reasonable in game reason for her to have been captured, means and motive.

Then burn/remove the body so that the PC can't/must quest in order to raise her. Death is cheap and he's a divine caster.

Oh, and if it gets really bad encourage your other players to roleplay better... and dump the dead weight. Then have them go into town specifically looking for a hero willing to help them, thus forcing your player to write up something that meshes better with the group dynamics. Hey, they're just doing what any reasonable character would in that situation. :smallcool:

Edit: Make it justifiable if it's not going to be stoppable. If he's into the roleplaying he'll take events outside of his control much better than contrived circumstances.

Kylarra
2010-08-07, 05:31 PM
Well he's drow, so killing her violently in front of him is probably not going to spark more than a need for revenge for the sake of family face, assuming they're even close in the first place.

Frankly, planning the violent and bloody deaths of NPCs in the backstory is why for some DMs I just play the lonely orphan with an emphasis that everyone I cared about is dead and for sure dead.

Volomon
2010-08-07, 05:31 PM
I have a PC who is a Drow Archivist and hates combat, often to frustrating levels with the players. I want to induce a bit of character drama to the campaign.

The player is a heavy roleplayer, so much so that he has an accent and everything. Ironically, the Drow he is playing has a thick french accent.

Anyways, his character has a twin sister, who is the High Priestess in Menzannine. She is the same level as him, just an NPC. The campaign is focused around a Half-Vashar Half-Vistani who was raised among orcs. He has taken over and plans to raise a long dead Demon: Orcus (yeah, in my campaign, Orcus was slain by 5 heroes).

I want him to see his sister skewered on a pike, her intestines spilled, ect.

How should I play this off and how should he react? Basically, take a situation and react as both a player and DM

The event might more entrench him into his mode of play. I don't see anything wrong with being different. Maybe he thinks all the worlds pains and suffering can't be solved with more suffering and pain. The notion of his sister dieing my so solidify the notion in his mind from a traumatic event that the character either all but gives up on the world in whole or pushes him to new extremes of pacifism. On the other hand he could go utterly mad and try to kill the other PCs for failing to save her. Basically the traumatization would be more of a level of insanity.

As for the DM I don't see nothing wrong with pushing this button. Whatever direction he goes it would be interesting.

SonOfJubilex
2010-08-07, 05:32 PM
Well, I was actually aiming for the Anakin Skywalker type effect. I don't want a happy ending for this guy. Role Player and Rule Nazi. I want his character to experience something traumatic.

The reason I won't do the kidnapping is because I already did it to the Duskblade/Knight. His mother is currently kidnapped and if he turns his party in to the leader, she goes free. He has yet to tell the players

Marnath
2010-08-07, 05:36 PM
Well, I was actually aiming for the Anakin Skywalker type effect. I don't want a happy ending for this guy. Role Player and Rule Nazi. I want his character to experience something traumatic.


Woah woah woah. Full stop. If your problem is with the player being a rules lawyer that rp's a person that makes adventuring difficult for the other players, its time for an OOC chat. You shouldn't punish his character.

Volomon
2010-08-07, 05:36 PM
Well, I was actually aiming for the Anakin Skywalker type effect. I don't want a happy ending for this guy. Role Player and Rule Nazi. I want his character to experience something traumatic.

The reason I won't do the kidnapping is because I already did it to the Duskblade/Knight. His mother is currently kidnapped and if he turns his party in to the leader, she goes free. He has yet to tell the players

The only problem is the Anakin Skywalker effect is due to his pampered nature as a child. He feels inclined to have things his way. To win at the races, to go with those he likes, to be trained, to have the best mentor, to do things his way. In other words the spoiled brat syndrome. This is what allows him to so easily come into grasps with his feelings and one which makes his nature turn to the most powerful emotion of all: Hatred.

Kylarra
2010-08-07, 05:37 PM
Well, I was actually aiming for the Anakin Skywalker type effect. I don't want a happy ending for this guy. Role Player and Rule Nazi. I want his character to experience something traumatic.
So... you don't like the character because you don't like the player so you're railroading bad things to happen to him until he breaks.


This is a bad thing.

iDM
2010-08-07, 05:42 PM
Try to have the PC talk to his sister, and maybe even get their relationship solidified to the point where she would run away from home to adventure with him- and as soon as they leave the city, they're ambushed and a villian tears off her head, sets fire to it (or destroys it with a spell, because people need their heads to be ressurected, don't they?) and animates the body as an undead who follows the villian in an escape.

SonOfJubilex
2010-08-07, 05:43 PM
Well, I just threw the general disgust of the player out there, but I think its time to explain the character's backstory:

The drow is the first Male Clergy in the history of the drow (since his sister is a High priestess). He was given better treatment than even the highest Males in drow society, though arguably lower than most women. Essentially, he was all but pampered. His sister begged him not to leave, but when he found a conspiracy to usurp Lolth herself, he left in time to see his city burn. His sister and him were the only survivors. She wound up in Neverwinter, being a Szarkai, and pretended to be an Elf. He however wasn't born with white skin and has thus headed to the city of Redwall, a Dwarven/Elven settlement. Surviving until a year ago, he and the party actually killed the BBEG's father. He has thus sworn vengence upon the party. From our Rogue being thrown in jail, only to be sprung by the party to the knight's mother's kidnapping, only the Drow Archivist of Pelor remains.

Marnath
2010-08-07, 05:44 PM
Try to have the PC talk to his sister, and maybe even get their relationship solidified to the point where she would run away from home to adventure with him- and as soon as they leave the city, they're ambushed and a villian tears off her head, sets fire to it (or destroys it with a spell, because people need their heads to be ressurected, don't they?) and animates the body as an undead who follows the villian in an escape.


I seriously doubt anyone with as much political influence as a high-priestess is going to go adventuring, least of all in a society where your inferiors are just waiting for you to show weakness so they can have your job.

*edit ninja'ed by OP

iDM
2010-08-07, 05:46 PM
I seriously doubt anyone with as much political influence as a high-priestess is going to go adventuring, least of all in a society where your inferiors are just waiting for you to show weakness so they can have your job.

*edit ninja'ed by OP

She's not in a drow city, though, is she?

Volomon
2010-08-07, 05:48 PM
I donno you'd have to heavily describe the method of his roleplaying. Is the character emotional? Irrational? Rational? What is the in-depth nature of his relationship with his sister? What emotional quirks does he have, character's nature?

You might have to flesh out his character before this kind of event has any major impact on his character. Maybe have his sister give birth, and have it die due to inaction or pacifism. Murdered right before his eyes while no other PCs are there to help (trap of some kind). Then an adventure or two later, have the same situation happen to his sister. Then let something scar him for life either mentally or physically deforming his face and lowering his charisma and have society shun him and hate him. Let them throw bottles which burst on his face and leave cuts.

If he has not turn to the dark side then he is to pure.

iDM
2010-08-07, 05:52 PM
I donno you'd have to heavily describe the method of his roleplaying. Is the character emotional? Irrational? Rational? What is the in-depth nature of his relationship with his sister? What emotional quirks does he have, character's nature?

You might have to flesh out his character before this kind of event has any major impact on his character. Maybe have his sister give birth, and have it die due to inaction or pacifism. Murdered right before his eyes while no other PCs are there to help (trap of some kind). Then an adventure or two later, have the same situation happen to his sister. Then let something scar him for life either mentally or physically deforming his face and lowering his charisma and have society shun him and hate him. Let them throw bottles which burst on his face and leave cuts.

If he has not turn to the dark side then he is to pure.

You are EVIL! It's genius. Did you take ranks in Perform(diabolic monologue)?

Marnath
2010-08-07, 05:52 PM
She's not in a drow city, though, is she?

That's where i got ninja'ed... he hadn't posted that by the time i started typing it...

Volomon
2010-08-07, 05:53 PM
You are EVIL! It's genius. Did you take ranks in Perform(diabolic monologue)?

I strive to be as evil as I can, thank you. :smallbiggrin:

SonOfJubilex
2010-08-07, 05:55 PM
I donno you'd have to heavily describe the method of his roleplaying. Is the character emotional? Irrational? Rational? What is the in-depth nature of his relationship with his sister? What emotional quirks does he have, character's nature?

You might have to flesh out his character before this kind of event has any major impact on his character. Maybe have his sister give birth, and have it die due to inaction or pacifism. Murdered right before his eyes while no other PCs are there to help (trap of some kind). Then an adventure or two later, have the same situation happen to his sister. Then let something scar him for life either mentally or physically deforming his face and lowering his charisma and have society shun him and hate him. Let them throw bottles which burst on his face and leave cuts.

If he has not turn to the dark side then he is to pure.

He is very emotional, though perfers to hide it.

He and his sister are extraordinarily close, almost to romantic levels. He carries a small proceline frame of her in his money bag. He actually was assigned to be her personal bodyguard, but when she told him that "they were too close," she left for Neverwinter. I was going to have it be like an outpost near Neverwinter (where the players are headed next week) is little more than a plume of black smoke. Her body, along with the Mayor's are on pikes, their heads as trophies of the BBEG. He will be able to tell its her, because of her sword, which is silver-treated adamantine with a spiderweb basket hilt (he told us the sword he made for her).

iDM
2010-08-07, 05:55 PM
I strive to be as evil as I can, thank you. :smallbiggrin:

"We've never met, and yet I feel an odd spiritual kinship..."
--Roy Greenhilt

SonOfJubilex
2010-08-07, 05:58 PM
anything else you guys want to know?

Marnath
2010-08-07, 05:58 PM
I still think it would work better if she was abducted, but it's your show. Maybe you can get the Knight-Captain of Crissroads Keep send someone to help rescue her/avenge her? After all, it's a matter of national security to stop a powerful psycopath.

Caphi
2010-08-07, 05:59 PM
I'm with Kylarra, this is basically taking out personal issues on the character. This is nothing more or less than being a bad GM.

Volomon
2010-08-07, 06:01 PM
He is very emotional, though perfers to hide it.

He and his sister are extraordinarily close, almost to romantic levels. He carries a small proceline frame of her in his money bag. He actually was assigned to be her personal bodyguard, but when she told him that "they were too close," she left for Neverwinter. I was going to have it be like an outpost near Neverwinter (where the players are headed next week) is little more than a plume of black smoke. Her body, along with the Mayor's are on pikes, their heads as trophies of the BBEG. He will be able to tell its her, because of her sword, which is silver-treated adamantine with a spiderweb basket hilt (he told us the sword he made for her).

That's even better, I was hoping for some kind of perverse relationship like that. I would let it be known that she is becoming married with perhaps even against her will. Let him save her from this adventure (you can do a castle style dungeon), but let it be known down the road that she is pregnant. Have her desperate for a father to take care of a dark skinned drow in a human world (can drows have children with humans?, might have to make it a drow father). Perhaps it's a left over of a curse or such that leaves her vulnerable to love, and the sight of him has got her spouting joy and love in his ear every moment. Have him set up a fancy life a cabin in the woods where he returns to her between adventures in their *passion*. Then she tells him the sudden news about her love with the former father. This will twist him a bit as he loved the child that was suppose to be his. Then have him become attached to the child. Then proceed as before.

Marnath
2010-08-07, 06:06 PM
Stuff

Thats messed up, man. :smalleek:
They're called half-drow, basically half-elves but with darkvision and grayish skin.

Glyde
2010-08-07, 06:10 PM
How about she turns into a bad guy? Whether by mind control or intentionally.

However, I'm also of the group that thinks that doing all this just to spite the player is not a good thing. I only do this sort of thing if the player expresses some interest in giving me enough freedom to do something extreme to their character - As a player, I myself welcome it, but everyone is different. Don't want anyone to have unfun, hm?

iDM
2010-08-07, 06:17 PM
That's even better, I was hoping for some kind of perverse relationship like that. I would let it be known that she is becoming married with perhaps even against her will. Let him save her from this adventure (you can do a castle style dungeon), but let it be known down the road that she is pregnant. Have her desperate for a father to take care of a dark skinned drow in a human world (can drows have children with humans?, might have to make it a drow father). Perhaps it's a left over of a curse or such that leaves her vulnerable to love, and the sight of him has got her spouting joy and love in his ear every moment. Have him set up a fancy life a cabin in the woods where he returns to her between adventures in their *passion*. Then she tells him the sudden news about her love with the former father. This will twist him a bit as he loved the child that was suppose to be his. Then have him become attached to the child. Then proceed as before.

Probably the best idea on here. A little perverted, but if your players are OK with that, it shouldn't be a problem.

Volomon
2010-08-07, 06:53 PM
Probably the best idea on here. A little perverted, but if your players are OK with that, it shouldn't be a problem.

It would be awesome if he was so attached to the child that was suppose to be his that he strikes her down in rage. You can't get any more Anakin than that. It depends on how well you describe the situation I think if you explain to him that he feels his blood boiling maybe he might roll with it and strike her down.

I can see it happening being so anger that not only do you find out the child isn't yours but find out at the exact same time that she slept with some man that you killed. Talk about a world shattering event.

WarKitty
2010-08-07, 07:03 PM
I'm going to throw in my vote for an OOC talk before you do anything IC. IC actions when a player isn't getting along with the group are likely to just make it worse. All the player sees is that bad things keep happening to his character that he can't control, which just builds resentment.

Talk to him about it, then come up with some IC events that could reasonably change his character.

FelixG
2010-08-07, 09:38 PM
I'm with Kylarra, this is basically taking out personal issues on the character. This is nothing more or less than being a bad GM.

At least hes playing into his characters strengths, he could throw him into overwhelming amounts of combat and few RP opportunities (the player hates combat).Or he could have just kicked the player from the table, but no.

How is building an event (that seems like a ton of fun to me) being a bad GM? If anything he dislikes the player and is building up a fun RP event for him to experience.

also @ Volomon: You ROCK

WarKitty
2010-08-07, 09:47 PM
At least hes playing into his characters strengths, he could throw him into overwhelming amounts of combat and few RP opportunities (the player hates combat).Or he could have just kicked the player from the table, but no.

How is building an event (that seems like a ton of fun to me) being a bad GM? If anything he dislikes the player and is building up a fun RP event for him to experience.

also @ Volomon: You ROCK

Depends on why he's doing it. If he's hoping to resolve a party conflict that's frustrating the other players, throwing a bad situation at him without any reason why (especially if other bad stuff keeps happening to his character) isn't likely to resolve anything.

Now, talking OOC with the player and saying he needs to change his play style a little bit, then throwing him this whole tragedy to provide a plausible in-game reason for his character's personality change, would be epic.

Marnath
2010-08-07, 09:53 PM
At least hes playing into his characters strengths, he could throw him into overwhelming amounts of combat and few RP opportunities (the player hates combat).Or he could have just kicked the player from the table, but no.

How is building an event (that seems like a ton of fun to me) being a bad GM? If anything he dislikes the player and is building up a fun RP event for him to experience.

also @ Volomon: You ROCK

It's only a fun RP event if the player doesn't feel like you're unjustifiably raping his characters backstory. It's no fun when the DM tells you what to have your character do or feel. But this is pretty immaterial, because as some of us are saying, messing with the character because of OOC is a bad thing.

TechnoScrabble
2010-08-07, 10:01 PM
Woah woah woah. Full stop. If your problem is with the player being a rules lawyer that rp's a person that makes adventuring difficult for the other players, its time for an OOC chat. You shouldn't punish his character.

Sir, I don't think you understand the Amber Rule, the MO of our great Gary Gygax. If the player pisses the DM off, the DM has every right to kill them and everyone they love (in game, not IRL) off. Just make sure you do it while following the rules.

FelixG
2010-08-07, 10:06 PM
It's only a fun RP event if the player doesn't feel like you're unjustifiably raping his characters backstory. It's no fun when the DM tells you what to have your character do or feel. But this is pretty immaterial, because as some of us are saying, messing with the character because of OOC is a bad thing.

the GM did point out he has had another characters mother kidnapped as well, so its not like the player is being singled out, from what i can tell its not being mean, it seems like the whole parties families are being targeted.

Marnath
2010-08-07, 10:09 PM
Sir, I don't think you understand the Amber Rule, the MO of our great Gary Gygax. If the player pisses the DM off, the DM has every right to kill them and everyone they love (in game, not IRL) off. Just make sure you do it while following the rules.

With respect, Gary Gygax is dead. Just because he was fond of doing that doesn't mean it's a good idea to treat your players that way. This is a game that we play with people we presumably like. If there's a problem at the table it needs to be gone over in a mature, adult manner that won't alienate the one who's having an issue. Doing horrible things to your player's character can only reinforce the idea that you are out to get him, specifically.

Kylarra
2010-08-07, 10:13 PM
the GM did point out he has had another characters mother kidnapped as well, so its not like the player is being singled out, from what i can tell its not being mean, it seems like the whole parties families are being targeted.A kidnapping is different than finding out that your family member was arbitrarily decapitated and defiled in a gruesome manner because your GM wants you to be traumatized and to not have a "happy ending". Agency is key here.

FelixG
2010-08-07, 10:17 PM
With respect, Gary Gygax is dead. Just because he was fond of doing that doesn't mean it's a good idea to treat your players that way. This is a game that we play with people we presumably like. If there's a problem at the table it needs to be gone over in a mature, adult manner that won't alienate the one who's having an issue. Doing horrible things to your player's character can only reinforce the idea that you are out to get him, specifically.

Pretty much goes to show that a GM can deal with it how they like, if this GM wants to do things to the character, that is his prerogative, it doesn't make him a bad GM, or would Gary Gygax be considered a bad GM? 0.o


A kidnapping is different than finding out that your family member was arbitrarily decapitated and defiled in a gruesome manner because your GM wants you to be traumatized and to not have a "happy ending". Agency is key here.

We dont know what happened to the mother after she was kidnapped, we have not been told, for all we know she could have suffered a horrible fate as well.

But i am still of the frame of thought that atleast the GM isnt kicking him from the table and telling him to GTFO or throwing him out of his element by forcing him to the forefront of combat and not tossing any RP his way.

iDM
2010-08-07, 10:22 PM
A kidnapping is different than finding out that your family member was arbitrarily decapitated and defiled in a gruesome manner because your GM wants you to be traumatized and to not have a "happy ending". Agency is key here.

The defiling isn't strictly necessary, the OP just said he wanted him traumatized. A good way to make people traumatized over D&D deaths are when they can't be raised. If the corpse is sufficiently defiled, it can't be raised.

Marnath
2010-08-07, 10:23 PM
A kidnapping is different than finding out that your family member was arbitrarily decapitated and defiled in a gruesome manner because your GM wants you to be traumatized and to not have a "happy ending". Agency is key here.

Exactly. :smallsmile:
And i didn't call anyone a bad GM. That's far and away harsher than what i said. The GM vs the player is a fine dynamic...if all parties are agreed on that style from the outset. I don't see anything that suggests thats been the case so far, a few kidnappings =/= brutally eviscerating a characters family because you want the player to be more involved.

Ajadea
2010-08-08, 04:16 PM
I wrote a character that was horribly traumatized in her backstory. As in, under the effect of a dominate person spell, she (pacifist at the time) was forced to kill her best friend. Then she found out her trusted mentor had cast the dominate person spell. She killed him in anger, OF HER OWN FREE WILL. Which was exactly what that little *^&# was going for, incidentally.

Try something like that, replacing 'best friend' with 'twin sister', 'trusted mentor' with 'trusted friend/ally who is part of a conspiracy', and (possibly) 'single murder' with 'Roaring Rampage of Vengance'. It can be fixed by raise dead, so the player can't yell at you too much, but the damage is already done.

Mystic Muse
2010-08-09, 02:15 AM
I don't know whether or not you'll read this but I suggest you don't do this unless it's okay with the player. You don't want to end up traumatising him in addition to the character.

Myth
2010-08-09, 04:38 AM
Have her be tentacle raped by a bunch of Illithids, then have her brain half-eaten so she reverts back to level 1 as a drooling shell of a person. Not sure if there is an easy way to fix this via magic.

Psyx
2010-08-09, 06:40 AM
GMs wonder why players generally insist on being orphans, single, and with no emotional ties or close family.

It's because of stuff like this. Have it; and you get it used against you.

This essentially seems to be punishment for handing the GM a detailed character background and roleplaying well; to the point where it is 'inconvenient', it seems.

Holocron Coder
2010-08-09, 07:58 AM
I never understood this hate people seem to have for the GM using your character's backstory to provide roleplay opportunities or adventures. If I write a 5 page background with named characters and places, I'd be thrilled to have them show up in the game. My favorite sister got captured by an evil orc horde? Awesome, let's go wipe them out and save my sister. My parents were sacrificed by a rival, who's leading a cult? Revenge!

I mean, seriously, why would I write any of those details if I didn't want them involved in the story somehow? :smallconfused:

Kylarra
2010-08-09, 08:32 AM
Obligatory trope warnings.
It's just a counter (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvenientlyAnOrphan) to the set of done (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FriendlyTarget) to (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlayerPunch) death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotlineDeath) tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge), pardon the pun.

Making use of the backstory is one thing, but the key part is doing it properly, and allowing for agency. The motivation given by the DM is suspicious, not liking the player so he wants to traumatize the character, and, as mentioned earlier, women in refrigerators (http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/index.html) is a done-to-death trope, pardon my pun (again).

Can also be extended to NPCs and why players don't care about them, if done poorly as well.

Verian: Wait, so you questioned us to determine which NPC we liked the most, just so you could kill him and deliver us his head?
GM: Not necessarily...
Balcoth: And you wonder why I don't tell you what I want.
source (http://agc.deskslave.org/excerpt3.html)

Psyx
2010-08-09, 10:34 AM
I mean, seriously, why would I write any of those details if I didn't want them involved in the story somehow? :smallconfused:

Because they are too often used in a negative and really horrible and over-used way, as mentioned by other posters.

Using them for plot: Fine.
Killing them horribly: Done to frikking death already.

"Haha: I killed you character AND your character's mom/kid/family/dog."

How original.
It positively penalises characters who have people whom they care about and reinforces the 'I want to be an embittered orphan' PC stereotype.

Myth
2010-08-09, 10:57 AM
...My parents were sacrificed by a rival, who's leading a cult? Resurrection!...
Fixed for you.

iDM
2010-08-09, 11:00 AM
"Haha: I killed you character AND your character's mom/kid/family/dog."

I don't think he said anything about killing the character.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 11:06 AM
So... you don't like the character because you don't like the player so you're railroading bad things to happen to him until he breaks.


This is a bad thing.

Oh, definitely.

If you have "general disgust" of a player, that's something ya'll should either talk about...or just not play together. Coming up with elaborate plans to justify screwing with his character in ways he can't stop...yeah, this is not the way to fix things. Just don't.

Holocron Coder
2010-08-09, 01:15 PM
It positively penalises characters who have people whom they care about and reinforces the 'I want to be an embittered orphan' PC stereotype.

See, that's what I don't get. Where's the penalty everyone keeps referring to? To me, it's just more story, and, hey, it's about you! Yay! :smallcool:

I mean, is there a hidden -1 to all rolls per family member killed/kidnapped/plot'd away by the DM? :smallconfused:

iDM
2010-08-09, 01:26 PM
See, that's what I don't get. Where's the penalty everyone keeps referring to? To me, it's just more story, and, hey, it's about you! Yay! :smallcool:

I mean, is there a hidden -1 to all rolls per family member killed/kidnapped/plot'd away by the DM? :smallconfused:

Exactly.

What's wrong with family members dying? Really, they're not yours. They're imaginary people in an imaginary world, where when you have to kill your family members or take revenge on their killers, you get better and more powerful (assuming you get XP for killing family members, and even if you don't, you'll probably get roleplaying XP if you pull it off right).That may be a little more metagamer than people like, but it's true.

Ajadea
2010-08-09, 01:27 PM
O_o. That teaches me to read a thread before speaking up, hmm?

I thought it was a much darker, DM-as-personification-of-evil campaign. If the character is pissing off everyone else, you need a nice long OOC talk about it. Don't wreck his game just because he's wrecking yours. You are all there to have fun, right?

KiltedGrappler
2010-08-09, 02:20 PM
Give him the chance, however slim (but real), to stop it.

I agree with this. Too much screwing around with PCs family/friends tends to make players want to make characters of the Lone Wolf, No-Family-No-Friends stereotype. Atleast, that's my experience with it anyway.

If you can get him scared enough to act to save his sister, it doesn't really matter if she dies or if he manages to save her. The effect will probably be the same either way.

WarKitty
2010-08-09, 02:22 PM
I think the problem more is if he's using killing off an in-game family member to solve an OOC problems. Attempting to solve OOC problems with IC negative actions is a recipe for resentment all around.

Umael
2010-08-09, 02:47 PM
Exactly.

What's wrong with family members dying?

I think that last line there illustrates the difference between roll-players and role-players.

As a sidenote, do you realize how hilariously horrible that comment is, taken out of context?



Really, they're not yours. They're imaginary people in an imaginary world,

So much for immersion.



where when you have to kill your family members or take revenge on their killers, you get better and more powerful

While it is a trope, whether you are killing them or avenging them, dealing with family members is supposed to be dramatic. After all, you are playing a hero, a protagonist. The chances of having a normal, well-adjusted childhood are pretty low, but so are the chances that every one else is an orphan.



That may be a little more metagamer than people like, but it's true.

Yes it is and not it isn't, respectively and respectfully.

Well, the second is not entirely false, but for the record, you can play games where you aren't supposed to go around killing everything for the XP. The Storyteller system does a good job of rewarding role-playing over combat.



As far as the OP goes, there is a vibe of disliking the player, so the PC is getting traumatized as a way to get to the player. If true, not good. Talk to the player, alone or with the group. Also, you don't have to go overboard. Rogue in jail, knight's mother kidnapped, good, good. So... why not just expose the sister as a drow? If the surface world has an issue with drow, that should be bad enough. If not... well, have the BBEG trick her with a love potion...



Because I am expecting to get a bit of flak for my comments... no, I do not disapprove of people playing orphans. As long as they aren't playing them all the time. Furthermore, just as it would be... wrong... to play nothing but orphans, it is wrong for the DM to always use the PC's family and friends as angst-fodder.

Having the PC have family does not automatically make them victims or victimizers (although they can still be plot hooks):
In my Mage game, a werewolf was stalking one of the PCs as she went to visit her parents. An unknown NPC was secretly assigned to protect her and followed the werewolf as he stalked the PC. She (the PC) arrived at her parents and got ready to take tea when the protecting NPC crashed tea-time and attacked the werewolf (who replied by changing form to Crinos). The mother fainted, the PC and her father carried her to safety. The protector and the werewolf fought for a brief moment, then the werewolf took off down the hall after the PC... where the father emerged from a doorway and brought the werewolf down with a silver bullet.

No victimizers, and with the possible exception of the mother, no victims.

iDM
2010-08-09, 03:03 PM
Sure, okay, nobody wants their character to get hurt, but those are mostly reasons why the whole "kill family members to get at the player" wouldn't work anyway, at least not in one of my games. Don't get me wrong, I love roleplaying, but to me, the whole point of roleplaying is to do things you couldn't normally do. Could you go on a killing spree to take revenge for your mother's murder by a demon in real life? No. Would your mother get murdered by a demon in real life? No. Maybe killing off family members to get at the player is bad DMing, but I usually play with people who put families in their background primarily because they want to have them kidnapped/killed by me to provide RP opportunities. Of course, my group is so dysfunctional they make Belkar look like Santa Claus, so I don't have much experience playing with people who don't like having morbid, unpleasant experiences for their characters to RP.

Also, my players aren't big on immersion. Maybe I need new players to broaden my horizons.

Umael
2010-08-09, 03:13 PM
Maybe killing off family members to get at the player is bad DMing, but I usually play with people who put families in their background primarily because they want to have them kidnapped/killed by me to provide RP opportunities.

Putting in family members in the background so give the DM target practice is fine, but having a pre-set option everytime ("Suffer") is bad DMing.

Be fair. Sometimes the PC's father gets horribly evicerated in front of the PC's eyes, sometimes the PC's mother re-marries someone who really is a nice, caring man and not a demon in disguise.

Don't forgot to be fair with your NPCs as well.



Of course, my group is so dysfunctional they make Belkar look like Santa Claus, so I don't have much experience playing with people who don't like having morbid, unpleasant experiences for their characters to RP.

Also, my players aren't big on immersion. Maybe I need new players to broaden my horizons.

The first part, I get. My group is full of the same. The second part... not so much.

Try running a few sessions where combat is NOT a necessary part of how the PCs gather experience points. For example, if they are level 5, put a CR 12 monster guarding something that they need and they can get fairly easily without getting into a fight. Then tell them that they get the experience points for getting to the objective whether or not they get into a fight with the monster, but that they will NOT get experience in and of itself for fighting and defeating the monster.

Marnath
2010-08-09, 03:24 PM
I mean, seriously, why would I write any of those details if I didn't want them involved in the story somehow? :smallconfused:

Maybe some people like playing characters with happy backgrounds and people who love them that they can go home to at the end of the day? If i give a character a family/village full of friends, it's because i want them to have loved ones, not a plot hook "lol they're all dead, lol"

iDM
2010-08-09, 03:29 PM
Try running a few sessions where combat is NOT a necessary part of how the PCs gather experience points. For example, if they are level 5, put a CR 12 monster guarding something that they need and they can get fairly easily without getting into a fight. Then tell them that they get the experience points for getting to the objective whether or not they get into a fight with the monster, but that they will NOT get experience in and of itself for fighting and defeating the monster.

I think I will, actually, but I'll have to put a few ranks in Heal and Craft(head trauma kit). And take Improved Book Dodging. :smalleek:

Umael
2010-08-09, 03:33 PM
I think I will, actually, but I'll have to put a few ranks in Heal and Craft(head trauma kit). And take Improved Book Dodging. :smalleek:

:smalleek:

Oh.

Oh, dear.

Might I suggest a helmet too? One with a Fortification enhancement to protect against criticals?

iDM
2010-08-09, 03:43 PM
:smalleek:

Oh.

Oh, dear.

Might I suggest a helmet too? One with a Fortification enhancement to protect against criticals?

I can see it now:

Dan: Nice helmet.
Me: Thanks.
Dan: What are we doing today?
Me: Well, you have to get the dragon's treasure. You won't get XP for killing the dragon, just for getting the treasure.
Dan: *throws book* Oh, that's what the helmet was for. You should've gotten one without holes though.
Hello?
Umm... Well, guys, best get home. Try to establish an alibi.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 04:28 PM
Maybe some people like playing characters with happy backgrounds and people who love them that they can go home to at the end of the day? If i give a character a family/village full of friends, it's because i want them to have loved ones, not a plot hook "lol they're all dead, lol"

True. Honestly, I don't bother to flesh out families anymore. They either end up entirely ignored, or as some crispy cinder Im supposed to rush off and avenge. Such is the fate of every family.

Orphans are the way to go.

Drascin
2010-08-09, 04:58 PM
Maybe some people like playing characters with happy backgrounds and people who love them that they can go home to at the end of the day? If i give a character a family/village full of friends, it's because i want them to have loved ones, not a plot hook "lol they're all dead, lol"

There is this too, yeah. Sometimes the characters are in the backstory as story fluff, perhaps for hooks about the village where the character lived in, simply to give the character something to care about and make him a tad more rounded and connected to the world, you know. Instantly assuming that if you write someone in the backstory it's because you want him dead is rather... I dunno, I can't honestly fathom thinking like that. Sometimes people just want background characters to roleplay with every now and then, not sacrifices to Khorne :smalltongue:.

Umael
2010-08-09, 05:21 PM
Honestly, I don't bother to flesh out families anymore. They either end up entirely ignored, or as some crispy cinder Im supposed to rush off and avenge. Such is the fate of every family.

Orphans are the way to go.

Would you ever play a non-orphan, and if so, what would it take?

(Just curious, not attacking your position.)