Vorpal Great Cleaving

[MarkusWolfe]

Hello all. This place seemed like the appropriate place to answer this:

The effects of the Cleave feat is described as follows:

"If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. "

And the effects of the Great Cleave feat is described as follows:

"This feat works like Cleave, except that there is no limit to the number of times you can use it per round. "

So if I'm a barbarian with both these feats and a vorpal greataxe, and I'm surrounded by a large warband of goblins when I roll a natural 20 on the first one I attack.....well, what I'm trying to ask is 'with Cleave/Great Cleave, would I have to make another roll for the next goblin, or are the survivors running away in terror because I just decapitated everything in my reach?'

[Hirax]

New roll for each.

[Jack_Simth]

It's the same bonus, but it's a new attack, and thus, a new roll. So you need to roll again for the next goblin in line.

[Aroka]

Can't see what in the feats' text would even imply that you'd get free 20s against the Cleave targets.

[Marnath]

Wishful thinking, perhaps?

[Lhurgyof]

It would also be quite bad ass.

[derfenrirwolv]

Roll for each goblin.

I don't know if vorpal would set off cleave, since you aren't dealing enough damage to make it drop, its dying from a special ability of your sword.

[Panigg]

Roll for each goblin.

I don't know if vorpal would set off cleave, since you aren't dealing enough damage to make it drop, its dying from a special ability of your sword.

You "made it drop" just because it didn't die from HP doesn't mean cleave did not work, it's still dead.

[miibtp]

that sounds like my old muchkin build.

crit range of 2-20, whenever i crit i can make another attack on that same subject (not like cleave), and every successful attack on that creature does another 10 damage - accumulative.

but sadly, most Dm's don't let me use it. even though it is legal.

(3.5 ed dnd)

anyway: no you do have to re-roll for the cleave bonus attacks.

shame

[Morph Bark]

that sounds like my old muchkin build.

crit range of 2-20, whenever i crit i can make another attack on that same subject (not like cleave), and every successful attack on that creature does another 10 damage - accumulative.

but sadly, most Dm's don't let me use it. even though it is legal.

(3.5 ed dnd)

anyway: no you do have to re-roll for the cleave bonus attacks.

shame

How the Baator did you get a rules-legal crit range of 2-20?



You "made it drop" just because it didn't die from HP doesn't mean cleave did not work, it's still dead.

Indeed. Cleave would also be offset if the target would fall prone for any reason, like having Knockdown, dealing Str or Dex damage to lower it to 0 or causing a status effect that makes them fall prone (not sure if paralysis does this, but there prolly is one).

[MarkusWolfe]

New roll for each.

Aw......shame. Because that would have been awesome if I could decapitate everything in my reach.....ah, well. Best to get over it. Thanks for the help!

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Indeed. Cleave would also be offset if the target would fall prone for any reason, like having Knockdown, dealing Str or Dex damage to lower it to 0 or causing a status effect that makes them fall prone (not sure if paralysis does this, but there prolly is one).
Yep. Sometimes “enough damage to make it drop” is 0.

But that doesn’t matter here, since anything that makes you dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) drops your hp to -10. So even an instant death effect that bypasses hp can technically be said to be doing hp damage equal to current hit points plus ten.

[Secret Agent Man]

that sounds like my old muchkin build.

crit range of 2-20, whenever i crit i can make another attack on that same subject (not like cleave), and every successful attack on that creature does another 10 damage - accumulative.

but sadly, most Dm's don't let me use it. even though it is legal.

(3.5 ed dnd)

anyway: no you do have to re-roll for the cleave bonus attacks.

shame
How did you get a 2-20 crit range?
Also, it is my understanding that only a natural 20 automatically hits, where all other critical threats still have to beat AC to actually count as a crit threat.

[Boci]

How did you get a 2-20 crit range?
Also, it is my understanding that only a natural 20 automatically hits, where all other critical threats still have to beat AC to actually count as a crit threat.

They have to beat AC to actually hit.

[The Glyphstone]

that sounds like my old muchkin build.

crit range of 2-20, whenever i crit i can make another attack on that same subject (not like cleave), and every successful attack on that creature does another 10 damage - accumulative.

but sadly, most Dm's don't let me use it. even though it is legal.

(3.5 ed dnd)

anyway: no you do have to re-roll for the cleave bonus attacks.

shame

That'd be impressive, considering the best minds at TheoryOp only managed, IIRC, somewhere around 9-20, 5-20 at the absolute best.

[Snake-Aes]

Yep. Sometimes “enough damage to make it drop” is 0.

But that doesn’t matter here, since anything that makes you dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) drops your hp to -10. So even an instant death effect that bypasses hp can technically be said to be doing hp damage equal to current hit points plus ten.

Yes. The feat description even says that typically the dropping is done by damage. "Dropping" is also rather vague, but it specifically includes making a creature to to 0 HP. So you have damage, death effects, paralysis, sleep effects...

[BobVosh]

I thought the best the char-ops board has every managed was 7-20 (or maybe 5-20). How did you get 2-20, and you should probably tell em?

I thought paralysis usually said they stay standing but incapable of moving.


Also, it is my understanding that only a natural 20 automatically hits, where all other critical threats still have to beat AC to actually count as a crit threat.

Correct. And vorpal only goes off on 20s, regardless of the weapons crit range.

[Snake-Aes]

I thought paralysis usually said they stay standing but incapable of moving.


No "stay standing", just "frozen in place". If that happens to be in a position where they stay balanced, it's pure descriptive value.

[BobVosh]

Oh ya. I guess we always just thought of that as stuck in place.

[Snake-Aes]

Great Cleave also happens to defeat mirror image incredibly easily..

[EagleWiz]

2-20 threat range? You do know that Improved crit and keen weapon dont stack right?

[Secret Agent Man]

Perhaps it was a typo where he actually meant to say 12-20.

[ericgrau]

Great Cleave also happens to defeat mirror image incredibly easily..
Great cleave and 1,000 other non-magical and magical effects that people often have even without planning for mirror image. I don't know why people think mirror image so good.

Vorpal great cleaving doesn't work because cleave says "when you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". Vorpal does not make a creature drop from "enough damage". Not that it would be OP or wouldn't be an ok house-rule, it just doesn't work.

[Snake-Aes]

Great cleave and 1,000 other non-magical and magical effects that people often have even without planning for mirror image. I don't know why people think mirror image so good.

Vorpal great cleaving doesn't work because cleave says "when you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". Vorpal does not make a creature drop from "enough damage". Not that it would be OP or wouldn't be an ok house-rule, it just doesn't work.

I was just pointing out that as an example of what "dropping" can be considered.
Also, aoe spells don't instantly kill mirror images. It requires targeted effects(like, say, regular attacks, magic missiles, hugs)

[Boci]

Great cleave and 1,000 other non-magical and magical effects that people often have even without planning for mirror image. I don't know why people think mirror image so good.

Because it is really powerful if your opponent does not know how to counter it, and even if they do the tactics are typically weaker than what they would if you did not have it up?


Vorpal great cleaving doesn't work because cleave says "when you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". Vorpal does not make a creature drop from "enough damage". Not that it would be OP or wouldn't be an ok house-rule, it just doesn't work.

Vorpal does 0 damage, which is enough to drop the creature.

[ericgrau]

Vorpal's damage has nothing to do with how it drops creatures. "Enough damage" is not the method of dropping in this case.


Because it is really powerful if your opponent does not know how to counter it, and even if they do the tactics are typically weaker than what they would if you did not have it up?
A full attack with melee or range counters it, with almost perfect success b/c their AC is nothing. People can counter it by accident even without knowing how to counter it. Casters have it slightly harder, b/c they need to think of doing things like casting magic missile against multiple targets. OTOH scorching ray could also accidentally wipe it out. And while it doesn't wipe out the images themselves casting an area spell is an obvious option.

[Boci]

Vorpal's damage has nothing to do with how it drops creatures. "Enough damage" is not the method of dropping in this case.

Meh. Personally that is reading too close into the rules, especially since you acknowledged it wouldn't be overpowered. I wouldn't even consider it a houserule, but others may disagree.

[ericgrau]

I would consider it a highly likely and accidental house-rule that really doesn't matter. But the OP did ask so I answered. You can make my answer "No, technically you can't, but go ahead and do it anyway" if that makes you feel better.

[Boci]

A full attack with melee or range counters it, with almost perfect success b/c their AC is nothing. People can counter it by accident even without knowing how to counter it. Casters have it slightly harder, b/c they need to think of doing things like casting magic missile against multiple targets. OTOH scorching ray could also accidentally wipe it out. And while it doesn't wipe out the images themselves casting an area spell is an obvious option.

But destroying the mirror images still takes attacks which were meant for the caster. By the time a ful attack will wipe out a significant number of them, a 2nd level spell isn't a big investment.

[ericgrau]

It takes a round and it still does a little damage against a frail target. It also takes a round to cast mirror image.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Vorpal does 0 damage, which is enough to drop the creature.
As I mentioned before, being dead puts you at -10 hp. So if vorpal beheads you and you are killed by the decapitation, you are taking enough damage to put you below 0 hp.