I gain power as I lose!!

[UndeadCleric]

I want to make a monster that gains bonuses the lower his hitpoints are. I wa thinking about an ability like:
Ex: Every 4 points of damage dealt increase this monster's Con, Dex and Str by 2 and Cha and Wis by 1 (Minimum of 3).
I would like help with almost everything including what CR such a creature would be and exactly what the ability would be.

[Roc Ness]

Ex: Every 4 points of damage dealt increase this monster's Con, Dex and Str by 2 and Cha and Wis by 1 (Minimum of 3).
I would like help with almost everything including what CR such a creature would be and exactly what the ability would be.

How much HP does the monster start out with? More than 20 and you may have a problem.

[Krazddndfreek]

I think it would be best simply to raise its damage and maybe attack bonus as he weakens. Maybe larger milestones as well. Something like every 25% health lost he gains a +4 bonus to attack and damage? It really also depends on the target CR, so that's just an example.

[FlamingKobold]

"Ah yes, the minster fails its reflex save against the maximized fireball and hey! It gets +30 to all of its physical stats! Woo!" This doesn't work that well at even mid levels.

[Milskidasith]

If it has more than 4 HD, depending on how you order the actions taken, it can either only be killed by something that one shots it, or is utterly immune to any type of HP damage (well, not immune, but it just doesn't ever lose HP).

[arguskos]

Actually, there are mechanics for this already. In MMV, there's a group of dudes called the Ushemoi that gain power from doing certain things. Two of them gain power from pain (taking HP damage). Look into that for balanced examples of what you're talking about.

[Xefas]

I kind of like it. At mid-levels, it'll be easy to just Ability Damage/Drain or use Save or Die stuff on it to circumvent damage altogether.

But at low levels, the characters might have to do something other than trying to stab it to death (gasp). Even something as simple as digging a pit, putting sticks and leaves over it, tricking it into charging over the pit, and then running the hell away before it figures out how to get out counts as "defeating the encounter" technically.

And, I mean, it's hard to classify a mechanic as "overpowered" if Team Rocket can beat it.

[the humanity]

maybe give it a renewable aura that has a chance of dazing you where the chance of dazing increases?

like every few points the fortitude save goes up?

[Techsmart]

This would be mostly a personality characteristic that seems like it could be attributed to a barbarian. I would probably do a creature that took ranks in barbarian and just did a rage on his turn when he's at 50% health. If the creature is below 3 int, you could do a similar concept, just change it around a little. This limits it to one use, still fits your intended concept, and keeps it mostly reasonable.

[Milskidasith]

I kind of like it. At mid-levels, it'll be easy to just Ability Damage/Drain or use Save or Die stuff on it to circumvent damage altogether.

But at low levels, the characters might have to do something other than trying to stab it to death (gasp). Even something as simple as digging a pit, putting sticks and leaves over it, tricking it into charging over the pit, and then running the hell away before it figures out how to get out counts as "defeating the encounter" technically.

And, I mean, it's hard to classify a mechanic as "overpowered" if Team Rocket can beat it.

Digging a pit in the middle of combat seems rather sub-optimal, plus by RAW such trapmaking is probably beyond both the spare wealth for parts and skill of most PCs, and the beast can probably spot it on a decent roll.

It's not balanced to make something not only immune to damage, but actively gaining massive amounts of strength from taking it, especially since that favors casters more than normal.

[Xefas]

Digging a pit in the middle of combat seems rather sub-optimal, plus by RAW such trapmaking is probably beyond both the spare wealth for parts and skill of most PCs, and the beast can probably spot it on a decent roll.

It's not balanced to make something not only immune to damage, but actively gaining massive amounts of strength from taking it, especially since that favors casters more than normal.

For one, you probably won't be digging the pit in battle. That was an example of something you could do if you knew it was coming after having fled from it previously. It's not the only thing.

Also, it only takes a couple silver for some shovels and the basic know-how of "stick the right end into the ground; repeat" to make a pit. I've never been camping, never was in the boy-scouts, I avoid going outside at all costs, and I think I could still figure out how to throw some sticks over a hole and put leaves and dirt on top. An actual "adventurer" could probably do it better.

As to whether it can spot it or not, the only mechanic we've spoken of "the beast" having is this "lose hp, gain stats" one. We don't know if it has a high spot or not, of it's even intelligent enough to care.

Having a challenge that can't be overcome by "stabbing it to death" is not as egregious as you make it out to be. Especially in a game that assumes you have multiple party members and a Dungeon Master to tailor encounters to that party's capabilities.

You could try reasoning with it. Grappling and tying it up. If it's slow enough, briskly walk away. Climb a tree and wait for it to get hungry/frustrated and leave. Bribery. If it's just being territorial/protecting young, you can try backing away and going around the area.

[Milskidasith]

Also, it only takes a couple silver for some shovels and the basic know-how of "stick the right end into the ground; repeat" to make a pit. I've never been camping, never was in the boy-scouts, I avoid going outside at all costs, and I think I could still figure out how to throw some sticks over a hole and put leaves and dirt on top. An actual "adventurer" could probably do it better.

That's not exactly how RAW trapbuilding works. A pit trap costs 2 grand, can be avoided on a DC 20 reflex save (which, if the party is above fifth level, isn't too hard after getting smacked by a full attack, because it will probably have a +10 reflex save right there), and requires a DC 20 trapbuilding check, so any character can make one, albeit by taking twenty with all the penalties that brings.


As to whether it can spot it or not, the only mechanic we've spoken of "the beast" having is this "lose hp, gain stats" one. We don't know if it has a high spot or not, of it's even intelligent enough to care.

It certainly will have the reflex save to avoid falling into the pit.


Having a challenge that can't be overcome by "stabbing it to death" is not as egregious as you make it out to be. Especially in a game that assumes you have multiple party members and a Dungeon Master to tailor encounters to that party's capabilities.

The problem is that a challenge that can't be overcome with damage makes wizards even more powerful and fighters even more useless. It's not even that it can't be overcome with stabbing, it's the fact you are punished for being a better fighter. Do you not see how incredibly bad that is, when a creature can not only make you completely unable to contribute to combat, but also make whatever power you did have hurt you? There's pretty much nothing in D&D that punishes you for being better at a role, and for good reason.


You could try reasoning with it. Grappling and tying it up. If it's slow enough, briskly walk away. Climb a tree and wait for it to get hungry/frustrated and leave. Bribery. If it's just being territorial/protecting young, you can try backing away and going around the area.

All of which don't change that it's rather poor design to punish players for being effective. Again, immunity to damage, while annoying and making many party members useless, isn't totally horrible, but actively punishing players for being effective at dealing damage is outright mean.

[Xefas]

That's not exactly how RAW trapbuilding works. A pit trap costs 2 grand, can be avoided on a DC 20 reflex save (which, if the party is above fifth level, isn't too hard after getting smacked by a full attack, because it will probably have a +10 reflex save right there), and requires a DC 20 trapbuilding check, so any character can make one, albeit by taking twenty with all the penalties that brings.

I don't really have any way to refute this. If you're playing the game like a boardgame with no regards to player input or logic, then, yes, this is the case. I completely agree. If you play the game like this, then play by the RAW (which we all know is balanced and fun) and don't use this specific homebrew.

I think most of this conversation is moot anyway, 'cause I get the feeling the original poster didn't consider that raising the CON would regenerate its hit points, and mostly wanted it to deal more damage as it went down.

[Milskidasith]

I don't really have any way to refute this. If you're playing the game like a boardgame with no regards to player input or logic, then, yes, this is the case. I completely agree. If you play the game like this, then play by the RAW (which we all know is balanced and fun) and don't use this specific homebrew.

First off, please don't be rude. I'm not ignoring player input. I'm showing what the result of the player input is. By RAW, your solution doesn't work. Even if you ignore the relatively high costs and time to create it, there's still no reason to ignore RAW on the reflex save, which the creature passes easily. Plus, it's a forty foot deep pit that takes massively good eyesight to spot casually glancing around, which isn't exactly something anybody with a shovel can do easily besides by taking a *lot* of time to make sure the pit looks right. While digging a pit to trap something is a clever solution, it certainly isn't useful if the creature is just capable of getting out of the way of the pit, or if it takes an exorbitant amount of time to make (and, from experience with yardwork, a hole a few feet deep takes forever to make; forty feet deep would make the work take forever).

The point is this is terribly imbalanced; it punishes people for being good at dealing damage, and, due to just how fast it increases in power, rapidly becomes immune to basically everything but things targeting will saves.

As a side note, you don't balance things based on potential houserules or common assumptions or "what makes more sense" (such as this not getting more HP as it gets hurt), you balance it based on what things say, aside from assuming most cheese isn't in play. In this case, it doesn't even make sense to ignore the rules; a pit a few feet wide, with really good reflexes, wouldn't be that hard to dive away from; it's not like I'm proposing the "drown it to restore HP solution," I'm just saying that, when a creature is entitled a reflex save, there's no reason to ignore the fact it's a save it will almost always pass. Yes, the players can use traps, but their traps aren't magically going to be better than the same ones they have a more than fair chance of dodging.


I think most of this conversation is moot anyway, 'cause I get the feeling the original poster didn't consider that raising the CON would regenerate its hit points, and mostly wanted it to deal more damage as it went down.

That doesn't change how unbalanced it is.

[Ashtagon]

I want to make a monster that gains bonuses the lower his hitpoints are. I wa thinking about an ability like:
Ex: Every 4 points of damage dealt increase this monster's Con, Dex and Str by 2 and Cha and Wis by 1 (Minimum of 3).
I would like help with almost everything including what CR such a creature would be and exactly what the ability would be.

If this critter has 4 HD, it will effectively never lose hit points. More than 4 HD, and it will heal faster than you can damage it, and that healing is directly linked to your damaging it. As written, your system is incredibly broken.

There's a barbarian rage variant (either PHB2 or UA) which triggers rage when hp drops to half. You could probably use a similar mechanic to trigger some kind of bonus. I understand that 4e uses this a lot.

[Krazddndfreek]

If this critter has 4 HD, it will effectively never lose hit points. More than 4 HD, and it will heal faster than you can damage it, and that healing is directly linked to your damaging it. As written, your system is incredibly broken.

There's a barbarian rage variant (either PHB2 or UA) which triggers rage when hp drops to half. You could probably use a similar mechanic to trigger some kind of bonus. I understand that 4e uses this a lot.

Actually, Berserker Strength from the PHB2 triggers when you drop a little lower than half (Read: 5 x level) hit points. That might be a good idea, but it seems like the OP wanted the thing's power to scale up in power more than once.

EDIT: Also, it doesn't give a constitution bonus. Instead, it gives DR and a bonus to all saves.

[Morph Bark]

If it has more than 4 HD, depending on how you order the actions taken, it can either only be killed by something that one shots it, or is utterly immune to any type of HP damage (well, not immune, but it just doesn't ever lose HP).

Even then it actually depends... on whether the raising of the ability scores happens after the damage is dealt, or at the same time the damage is dealt.

Another question is how long these increases would actually last, because if they'd be permanent...

[Mulletmanalive]

Is this ability supposed to be keyed to "Damage dealt" or "hp lost" because those are two different things.

If it comes off hits, then it's very powerful, but stacked bleeding effects don't cause damage, they cause hp loss so with the correct equipment, some craft skills and a lot of preperation [and very bizarre use of the Foraging rules] you could probably make enough of that alchemical stuff that causes bleeding in about a week and take the thing down.

If it's hp loss, then it's unkillable and one might as well pack up now.

If it were worded as "each time the critter takes 4+ hp damage, it gains X stat bonuses, maybe it would work, but it'd be nigh impossible to guess the power level due to the fact that it would grow more powerful, faster, against low level characters...

Were you to go with stacking Attack and AC bonuses, it would be wierd and interesting. Ability bonuses, i can't imagine any way to make that anything other than a fighter-proof critter [before someone says that everything is fighter proof, you know full well what i mean!]

[Jota]

My tentative notes on a monster like this would be as follows:

100 HP
+1 to hit every 15 damage taken
+1 to AC every 10 damage taken.
+10 to base land speed every 20 damage taken
Changes are applied immediately after taking damage
Starts with +4 to hit, 14 AC, 30 BLS
Base damage is something like 2d6+2
CR 3 (?)





Format is hit points remaining; BAB (not including iterative attacks), AC, BLS
100-91; BAB +4, 14 AC, 30 BLS
90-86; BAB +4, 15 AC, 30 BLS
85-81; BAB +5, 15 AC, 30 BLS
80-71; BAB +5, 16 AC, 40 BLS
70-61; BAB +6, 17 AC, 40 BLS
60-56; BAB +6, 18 AC, 50 BLS
55-51; BAB +7, 18 AC, 50 BLS
50-41; BAB +7, 19 AC, 50 BLS
40-31; BAB +8 20 AC, 60 BLS
30-26; BAB +8, 21 AC, 60 BLS
25-21; BAB +9, 21 AC, 60 BLS
20-11; BAB +9, 22 AC, 70 BLS
10-0; BAB +10, 22 AC, 70 BLS

[vasharanpaladin]

Class levels! Dunno about gaining attack power, but my entropy champion gets harder to kill the closer it is to dying... :smalltongue:

[Bonecrusher Doc]

Sounds like the jachyra from the Shannara books. I'm not saying your idea is unoriginal of course, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[TheVileVillain]

Why not something akin to the masochism spell, but a bit more powerful.
For every 10 points of Damage it takes it gets a +2 cumulative bonus to attack rolls, saving throws, and damage rolls, but also takes 1 point of wisdom damage. The bonuses reset at the end of the encounter and the wisdom damage heals normally. Right now I'm visualizing something with an extreme temper. If it gets in too many fights too quickly it will rage itself into a coma of spite, hatred, and ulcers.

Edit/Note:I would say give it more hp than 10 x its wisdom score, that way it won't go in a coma unless it heals itself repeatedly and charges back into battle (which it is likely to do with the wisdom score it will be sporting). Describe its reckless abandon more and more as it takes wisdom damage.

I would put this at a CR +2 ability (Roughly on par with the fiendish template).

[Peregrine]

If it has more than 4 HD, depending on how you order the actions taken, it can either only be killed by something that one shots it, or is utterly immune to any type of HP damage (well, not immune, but it just doesn't ever lose HP).

Let's run the numbers. A Con increase of +2 gives you H hit points, where H is your number of Hit Dice. If you get a +2 Con boost after every x hit points lost, then if x is greater than H, you're still closer to death. If they're equal, then unless you get killed outright, your hit points keep resetting. But your max HP increases, so if you have access to any healing, you just get harder to kill. If x is less than H, you just get harder to kill.

It could be workable. But it would probably be safer to (a) say that they get a Con bonus that affects everything but hit points (current and maximum), and/or (b) give them a lot of fast healing instead.


That's not exactly how RAW trapbuilding works. A pit trap costs 2 grand, can be avoided on a DC 20 reflex save (which, if the party is above fifth level, isn't too hard after getting smacked by a full attack, because it will probably have a +10 reflex save right there), and requires a DC 20 trapbuilding check, so any character can make one, albeit by taking twenty with all the penalties that brings.

I thought the point was an open pit, into which the monster could be pushed, not "a pit trap" as defined in the DMG. Those take 1,300gp ("Deeper Pit Trap") or more, and Craft (trapmaking), to make. They are covered or hidden and take Search checks to find. They allow a Reflex save to avoid them, by leaping out of the fall zone. They take Disable Device checks to disable, and according to Disable Device, "Disabling a pit trap generally ruins only the trapdoor, making it an uncovered pit."

An uncovered pit is exactly what we want, I think. It's completely different on all four criteria. Earth-moving spells could be employed to dig an uncovered pit in six seconds. Yes, it sticks out like a sore thumb. No, the monster doesn't get a Reflex save to avoid being bull rushed into it, any more than it would to avoid being shoved off a cliff. And it can't be disabled; "Filling in the pit or building a makeshift bridge across it is an application of manual labor, not the Disable Device skill."

[Milskidasith]

I thought the point was an open pit, into which the monster could be pushed, not "a pit trap" as defined in the DMG. Those take 1,300gp ("Deeper Pit Trap") or more, and Craft (trapmaking), to make. They are covered or hidden and take Search checks to find. They allow a Reflex save to avoid them, by leaping out of the fall zone. They take Disable Device checks to disable, and according to Disable Device, "Disabling a pit trap generally ruins only the trapdoor, making it an uncovered pit."

Read what Xefas said; it was clearly a pit that was covered and the goal was to make the beast charge over it, which is pretty clearly an actual pit trap.


An uncovered pit is exactly what we want, I think. It's completely different on all four criteria. Earth-moving spells could be employed to dig an uncovered pit in six seconds. Yes, it sticks out like a sore thumb. No, the monster doesn't get a Reflex save to avoid being bull rushed into it, any more than it would to avoid being shoved off a cliff. And it can't be disabled; "Filling in the pit or building a makeshift bridge across it is an application of manual labor, not the Disable Device skill."

Nobody suggested bull rushing the creature but you, and your suggestion, with the beasts stats, is pretty much impossible; nobody would have the strength to do so.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think it would be best simply to raise its damage and maybe attack bonus as he weakens. Maybe larger milestones as well. Something like every 25% health lost he gains a +4 bonus to attack and damage? It really also depends on the target CR, so that's just an example.

The problem is that a challenge that can't be overcome with damage makes wizards even more powerful and fighters even more useless. It's not even that it can't be overcome with stabbing, it's the fact you are punished for being a better fighter. Do you not see how incredibly bad that is, when a creature can not only make you completely unable to contribute to combat, but also make whatever power you did have hurt you? There's pretty much nothing in D&D that punishes you for being better at a role, and for good reason. All of which don't change that it's rather poor design to punish players for being effective. Again, immunity to damage, while annoying and making many party members useless, isn't totally horrible, but actively punishing players for being effective at dealing damage is outright mean.


I agree.


QUOTE=Xefas;9100636]Having a challenge that can't be overcome by "stabbing it to death" is not as egregious as you make it out to be. Especially in a game that assumes you have multiple party members and a Dungeon Master to tailor encounters to that party's capabilities. You could try reasoning with it. Grappling and tying it up. If it's slow enough, briskly walk away. Climb a tree and wait for it to get hungry/frustrated and leave. Bribery. If it's just being territorial/protecting young, you can try backing away and going around the area.[/QUOTE]

I think that CR is a base of how tough a monster is in combat-if it will turn the PCs into a thick red spray with ease or vise versa. This creature probably isn't vise versa.

[Prime32]

http://www.realmshelps.org/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Pain_Mastery

[DracoDei]

I agree hidden pits are hard to construct.

I don't think that "puzzle bosses" (or even "puzzle enemies") are a bad thing (I have made one).

[Milskidasith]

I agree hidden pits are hard to construct.

I don't think that "puzzle bosses" (or even "puzzle enemies") are a bad thing (I have made one).

The problem is that this is only a puzzle to melée characters. Wizards just use SoDs.

[Peregrine]

Read what Xefas said; it was clearly a pit that was covered and the goal was to make the beast charge over it, which is pretty clearly an actual pit trap.

You're quite right; the distinction I was trying to make was between "constructed" traps (which is clearly what the DMG rules are meant to cover) and improvised ones like Xefas described. But my mind was somewhere else and so while I wrote the post I forgot about the "covered with sticks and leaves" part altogether.

I still maintain that the DMG trap rules just aren't relevant to the pit trap being described. (The meaning of "covered" that it uses is a trapdoor, not simple camouflage. A "camouflaged pit trap" would, it seems, have both.) Unfortunately RAW doesn't deal with an "uncovered" pit that you make some effort to hide.


Nobody suggested bull rushing the creature but you, and your suggestion, with the beasts stats, is pretty much impossible; nobody would have the strength to do so.

This too suffered from not giving what I was (meant to be) writing my full attention. What I was meaning to do was refute the problems posed with finding and avoiding the trap; "just bull rush it" was meant to be the "even if you can't conceal it" scenario (especially since RAW doesn't talk about concealing it).

You do have a point that it would be hard to bull rush -- if they tried hurting it first. But a pit is quite possible as a first strategy, if the party knows ahead of time (say, from getting their butts kicked last time) that hurting it makes it stronger.

[Milskidasith]

A put nontrap would still require a reflex save, and even without stat boosts, bull rushing the creature into the pot, if if had even mild awareness, would be near impossible, especially if it knew it was invulnerable.

[Venardhi]

What if he had slight stat/ac bonuses from each hit and also a big one that wore off rather quickly. The trick would be to try to damage as much as you can in a burst, then avoid/stun/etc until the big bonus wore off. The big bonus could be a visual effect like a glowing aura or the like so they would be able to know when to attack again. This bonus could get better and better (and last longer) until it becomes practical invulnerability when it has less than 10 percent life left.

[Milskidasith]

What if he had slight stat/ac bonuses from each hit and also a big one that wore off rather quickly. The trick would be to try to damage as much as you can in a burst, then avoid/stun/etc until the big bonus wore off. The big bonus could be a visual effect like a glowing aura or the like so they would be able to know when to attack again. This bonus could get better and better (and last longer) until it becomes practical invulnerability when it has less than 10 percent life left.

The problem is if you can reliably stun the creature, you can probably reliably land a save or die on it.