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TechnOkami
2010-08-08, 01:21 AM
So, this thread is a two part question.

Part 1:
Are there any actual rules for a horror style campaign, specifically for something along the lines of Silent Hill? Not specifically, though it would make it a lot interesting. Something more along the lines of say Eberron or Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms... ...with a town just like Silent Hill. Thoughts? Ideas? Comments?

Part 2:
I've been talking with my GM, and I want to use one of my own characters for his campaign. She is the result of several Necromancers' machinations to making a weapon which embodies fear... and they got it. Though she did go out of control and ripped their bodies apart. She spawns zombies from her body due to she being an odd undead construct, but the truly scary thing about her is her alternate personality, or her true power. When she wakes up and takes over, first what happens is she wails like a banshee, and the world around her seems to be taken over by another Silent Hill sort of world. Any ideas on how I should do this sort of temporary Silent Hill takeover? Oh, and when the world around her enters this state, zombies burst forth from the fleshy ground and sinister surroundings. So basically, how could/should I do this without making it too broken/overpowered, yet not overtly weak?

Arbane
2010-08-08, 01:31 AM
Totally off the top of my head...

...D&D, at least at medium-to-high levels might not be the best system for horror, due to the 'if it gots hit points, we can kill it' mentality.

Having said that, a few misc. thoughts on Silent Hill:

1: The place itself is out to get you. The map can shift without warning. There was a hole here, it's GONE now. But it wants you to keep struggling, so there's always a way out, just never a pleasant one.

2: Most of the monsters aren't too dangerous, but there are a LOT of them, so you're better off just running. Boss monsters ARE dangerous, so you're better off running, if that's an option.

3: The place itself attracts certain people--mostly, ones with some issue they can't bear to face themselves, and forces them to become better or worse by confronting it.

(If you do a search on RPG.net for 'silent hill', someone ran a one-shot SH-themed game. Part of the setup was giving every character a backstory with at least one big lie in it, and revealing that lie over the course of the game. It sounded awesome.)

----

For 2, around what level is that character? I'd be tempted just to treat the "Silent Hill Overlay" as an illusion, and the zombies as just really weak summoned monsters.

Either that, or some sort of plane-shift? To a very small demiplane described as "the real world, but UGLIER".

drengnikrafe
2010-08-08, 02:43 AM
Seeing this thread reminds me of Lycan01, and how a good portion of the horror stories he would tell in the "Tell us your horror story" threads included the words "Pyramid Head".

TechnOkami
2010-08-08, 02:53 AM
Oh really... that sounds interesting. I'll give it a look.

Yora
2010-08-08, 07:53 AM
There's a really good 3.5e book Heroes of Horror, that is just about horror games in D&D. I highly recommend it, if you can find a copy.

Keep it low level, so the characters are vulnerable. If it's supposed to go over a longer time, E6 might be a good idea.

Aroka
2010-08-08, 07:57 AM
Heroes of Horror is obvious. The funny thing is, though, it deals with a very dull kind of horror, focusing on gore and gross-outs and over-the-top junk. It's nothing like Silent Hill.

Sword & Sorcery's 3.X Ravenloft (the Player's book, DM's book, and monster book got 3.5 updates) is great. Better, in fact, than the AD&D version - the writers had a far better handle on what horror is and how poorly D&D does it, whereas AD&D Ravenloft adventures were just ridiculous (the headless horseman is probably the very worst of the lot) hackfests in a gothic setting.

Silent Hill is a Ravenloft domain anyway - it's obvious. You enter it without even realizing it, it's quite possibly created from your or someone else's psyche or life, and reflects that in ways meant to torture you. The protagonist is the Darklord. All the mist just makes the connection that much easier. And once you're in it, you can't get out.

Xuc Xac
2010-08-08, 08:17 AM
Silent Hill is a Ravenloft domain anyway - it's obvious. You enter it without even realizing it, it's quite possibly created from your or someone else's psyche or life, and reflects that in ways meant to torture you. The protagonist is the Darklord.

Wow. That just made Ravenloft so much cooler! Everything in the domains of Ravenloft are based on the Darklord of that domain: not because the Darklord is its master, but because he is its primary victim. The domain is the private hell of its Darklord, but it's a private hell open to the public so a lot of innocents get dragged along for the ride.

Aroka
2010-08-08, 08:52 AM
Wow. That just made Ravenloft so much cooler! Everything in the domains of Ravenloft are based on the Darklord of that domain: not because the Darklord is its master, but because he is its primary victim. The domain is the private hell of its Darklord, but it's a private hell open to the public so a lot of innocents get dragged along for the ride.

That's precisely the definition of a domain since AD&D days, AFAIK. Most are ironic. The Darklord is the main prisoner, and everyone else is just caught up in his or her punishment.

Ravenloft spoilers ahead:

All of the Darklords, in fact, have pretty specific curses that torment them:

Strahd, for instance, is doomed to forever keep thinking some poor random woman is his beloved reborn, and to end up killing the woman somehow.

The lich Azalin, who sacrificed everything in the pursuit of greater arcane might, is cursed to be unable to ever learn or master any new magic, which makes his quest to escape Ravenloft through his own power pathetically futile. Like the others, he is blind to his curse.

Doctor Victor Mordenheim is doomed to live with his Monster, the reminder of his failures, and try in vain to restore true life to his wife's horribly preserved remains.

The curses are usually darkly ironic but callously deadly to others; for instance, the female Darklord whose touch is lethal poison brought her doom about by lust, and is now unable to touch anyone without killing them.

This is the reason the Darklords can't be killed, too - that would be an escape from the torture they brought upon themselves with the sins that created their domain.

This is all part of the gothic theme, actually - gothic horror was usually big on misdeeds bringing about poetic justice. It's just that Ravenloft's justice is ruthless and grim, and the Dark Powers, if they exist, don't care one bit about who else is hurt.

Xuc Xac
2010-08-08, 10:46 AM
That's precisely the definition of a domain since AD&D days, AFAIK. Most are ironic. The Darklord is the main prisoner, and everyone else is just caught up in his or her punishment.


Maybe so, but the darklord always seems to suffer less than everyone else in his domain. He occupies a position of power and privilege instead of constantly worrying about whether or not he'll live another day.

Aroka
2010-08-08, 11:03 AM
Maybe so, but the darklord always seems to suffer less than everyone else in his domain. He occupies a position of power and privilege instead of constantly worrying about whether or not he'll live another day.

Well, this is gothic horror - their suffering is on a different level. It's pretty much conceived of as a higher level of suffering, in fact, because it's a frustration of desires or ambitions on a higher level than basic survival. The idea is that the very fact of their continued existence, which they can't escape, is torment to them, and they are subtly defeated by their own natures at everything they attempt.

And not nearly all Darklords are in positions of power. IIRC, Victor Mordenheim is hated and feared by everyone in the domain (who are, in general, relatively untouched by his curse; if you manage to get onto the isolated island the Monster lives on, you're likely to get pounded dead, but that's about it), and I would actually think he's almost regularly attacked by a mob with pitchforks and torches. It's just that if he's killed, he returns to life in his manor later on (and if the manor is torched, it'll probably repair itself).

Strahd and Azalin are, obviously, rulers of their domains, although Azalin's realm doesn't exactly seem worse than some historical dictatorships. Some domains are perfectly "pleasant", no more horrifying or deadly to live in than average D&D settings (I'm thinking of the one with the Jekyll/Hyde knight, I forget the names). The "Hound of the Baskervilles" domain (can't remember name, it's the one with the House on Gryphon Hill) is almost safe and pleasant, with late Renaissance technology and science, if you stay out of graveyards and ruins.

But the Dark Powers definitely don't care about what happens to the people of the domains; they're only concerned with the torment of the Darklords. None of them derive any true or lasting satisfaction from their power and authority, and generally suffer constantly in some occasionally abstract way.

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-08, 11:29 AM
I think it's fair to say that their suffering is of the existential variety. Which is to say, I'm sure you'll be crying yourself to sleep in your silk sheets with your army of servants. The exquisite food and freely flowing carnal pleasures will hold no attraction against the backdrop of your tormented existence.

Or perhaps they just don't really suffer that much after all.

Quite frankly, when choosing between the almost gentle, philosophical suffering of the Darklords and the grim, short and meaningless existence on offer elsewhere, there really are far worse fates.

Poor little rich kidsDarklords.

Yora
2010-08-08, 12:31 PM
The commoners are just background decoration. It's not as if they were people.

Tyrmatt
2010-08-08, 12:55 PM
Another vote for Heroes of Horror. It does have some really twisted stuff to do to PCs that fits the SH vibe if you read the pages properly.

SH is also a very audio-centric experience. If you can find a way to make the sound of walkie talkie interference play just before something horrible happens and then NOT happen later, you'll have your PCs twitching and jumping at every shadow.

Yora
2010-08-08, 01:42 PM
You could replace it with describing a tingling in the fingertips or a slight ringing in the ears, or something like that.
The key is not to use it simply as an announcement "a monster is about to attack you in about 20 to 30 seconds". When you have fast moving monsters that are running straight at the PCs, they will sense them only a few seconds before they come jumping from the fog. Or even better, have them sense an evil presence, but make it impossible to locate the source. (For example, they are on a floor below). And when they leave, the sensation ends, without ever explaining what caused it.

In our last game, I handed the PCs small vials of blssed spring water, that served as taint absorbing amulets. When one player stepped into the circle of runes written in blood and touched the rotting deer carcass, I just told him that his vial cracked and the water was of murky grey color.
Caused a lot of panic and I hadn't even told the players what taint actually does. :smallbiggrin:

Lord Loss
2010-08-09, 05:39 AM
Yet another vote for heroes of horror. Though not the best of books (this is WOTC we're talking about), it has quite a few high-quality, solid ideas.

Like they did in SH: Homecoming, you could have the PCs dream of going to Sh before actually doing so.

EDIT: One question: Have they played the game(s)? Do they know a lot about it?

Somebloke
2010-08-09, 08:28 AM
I would personally ditch 3.5 for d20 modern + stuff nicked from Heroes of Horror, or even better: FATE.

Aroka
2010-08-09, 08:36 AM
I would personally ditch 3.5 for d20 modern + stuff nicked from Heroes of Horror, or even better: FATE.

I pretty much agree; PC agency is built pretty deep into 3.5, and agency is antithetical to fear. Ravenloft, for instance, would work better as a d20 Modern variant. I'd recommend Unisystem as the alternative system, though.

A bit relatedly to the topic, I just watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 7, episode 7, Conversations with Dead People, and it has a great study in tension and agency in Dawn's segment. The tension is built marvelously: you know something is going to happen, but you don't want it to happen. Inexplicable things happen then unhappen (the furniture rearranging itself and then going back), but there's a reason for them (illusion). But once Dawn starts doing the ritual to defeat the "demon", the tension unwinds almost immediately: the climax is fast, noisy, and anxious, but it isn't scary, because it's the climax that unwinds the tension.

Understanding the sequence of building and releasing tension is critical to creating good horror. Remember, whenever the protagonists are able to act in some purposeful way, whether its to fight the monster or perform a ritual, the tension unwinds and the fear goes away. This unwinding is essential, because it resolves the horror (really, you should contrive to always have an unwinding towards the end of a session), but you have to be sparing with it.

Lord Loss
2010-08-09, 08:52 AM
I may be running this as an adventure in my homebrew RPG Shadowfall

It's a D20, Cthulhu-esque game that can be used for standard horror or action-horror but without turning the PCs into gods (I'm looking at you, CoC D20)

hamishspence
2010-08-09, 08:54 AM
Do the PCs approach godlike levels in CoC D20? I thought it was pretty toned down, even when compared to D20 Modern- no class-based character special abilities.

Lord Loss
2010-08-09, 08:56 AM
From what I've heard, the amount of HP you have turns you into a SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!!!

http://www.rpg.net/columns/thehorror/thehorror18.phtml

hamishspence
2010-08-09, 08:59 AM
Maybe true- but no more so than D20 Modern does. And with the lack of magic items, a character will get chewed up by an army real fast.

Might have to check the HP- but the impression I got from the book was that D20 Cthulhu characters were pretty weak compared to characters in other D20 systems.

A 20th level Cthulhu character might be equivalent to an NPC class (commoner or expert) in general combat ability. Only without flaws like Chicken Infested.

Except for spells- but Cthulhu spells are rather riskier than D&D ones.

Lord Loss
2010-08-09, 09:00 AM
It may not be worse than D20 modern, but that's too immortal for me. It's supposed to be a lethal game. Man was not meant to one-shot a Hound of Tindalos.

hamishspence
2010-08-09, 09:04 AM
Might combine well with E6. The Hounds of Tindalos are also pretty underpowered in D20 Cthulhu- only CR3. They could be boosted.

If they're been playing since 1st level, then by the high levels they will be on the brink of insanity anyway.

Hmm- given that Conan comics have occasionally crossed over with Cthulhu Mythos (in one Conan faces, but can't really fight, Tsathogga) what level would Conan be as a D20 Cthulhu character? Maybe level 15?

Aroka
2010-08-09, 09:55 AM
Do the PCs approach godlike levels in CoC D20? I thought it was pretty toned down, even when compared to D20 Modern- no class-based character special abilities.

No, they don't. At 20th level, you suck, and a few deep ones can easily kill you. Your AC doesn't go up, your damage is still the base weapon damage with no bonuses, your abilities will be very low, and you've got maybe 100 hit points if you've got good Con.


From what I've heard, the amount of HP you have turns you into a SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!!!

http://www.rpg.net/columns/thehorror/thehorror18.phtml

Nope. Any damage over 10 points from one attack (deep ones can deliver this regularly, and rifles deal an average of 11 damage) is massive damage for humans, and you have to save or die. (I forget if the DC is set or if it's the amount of damage.)

You can't hurt big monsters, and small ones like deep ones and ghouls can one-shot you. The monsters, meanwhile, have a 50-point massive damage threshold, and usually have damage reduction (which you can't overcome unless you've found a spell to create an enchanted dagger) or regeneration.


Seriously, most criticisms of CoC d20 are easily refuted by just looking at the game's rules and what they actually result in.


Hmm- given that Conan comics have occasionally crossed over with Cthulhu Mythos (in one Conan faces, but can't really fight, Tsathogga) what level would Conan be as a D20 Cthulhu character? Maybe level 15?

Conan would pretty much be a 3.5 barbarian 20 (well, barbarian/rogue maybe) plopped into a CoCd20 campaign. Even 20th-level CoCd20 characters can't do what Conan could, especially in a fight - he went up against demon gods inhabiting metal statues and tentacles monstrosities that weren't even entirely corporeal, and won.

Edit:
Some numbers!


Okay, looked up my rulebook. Massive damage (10 or more points for humans, 50 for creatures) is a DC 15 Fort save.

Let's try a 20th-level character (don't see why PCs should ever go much past 10th level)... standard array (15 14 13 12 10 8), focused on being a combat monster. That'll be Str 14, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8. Let's put stat increases into Str and Con for, say, Str 18 and Con 16.

You're an Offense Option and get one good save - that'll be your Fort at +12 base, with Ref and Will at +6 each. Your BAB is +15.

You've got 8 feats. We'll take Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Proficiency (melee weapons, shotgun), Martial Artist, and Improved Initiative.

So far:
hp 132 AC 11 (flat-footed 10) Fort +17 Ref +7 Will +6
Melee +19/+14/+9, ranged +16/+11/+6

With that many hit points, you might actually get to die of hit point damage - after all, you've got a 60% chance of not failing any out of 10 massive damage saves.

If you get in a fight with, say, regular CR 3 byakhees, they're going to be hitting you for an average of 9.35 damage per round with claws, and have a 72.25% chance to rend for an average of 9 damage (with a 25% chance to do 10+ damage and force a Fort save). The good news is, if you're using a shotgun, you'll probably be able to kill one each round (you'll need two hits unless you crit or just roll 18 on 3d6). Of course, you'd be provoking AoOs using a ranged weapon, so you could just smack them with a fire ax for 1d8+6 and Power Attack and maybe take out 1-2 per round.

A CR 9 dark young, though? It's got DR 20/+2, so you can't deal damage to it (well, maybe a few points if you crit it). It's going to hit you with 4 tentacles per round (well, 5% chance to miss), each dealing 1d6+10 damage (so 4 Fort saves, 19% chance to fail one). Then it'll grapple you (+26 bonus) and deal 1d3 Str drain every round (there is no way to ever restore drained ability scores in CoCd20).

Oh, those CR 3 hounds of Tindalos? Con drain on a touch attack (not like it matters since there's no armor). And they can't be killed - they have regeneration 5 but nothing deals normal damage to them.

CoCd20 characters are never combat monsters. They get better at hitting things with guns, which only helps against the few things that can be killed by guns, and they eventually become able to maybe survive being pummeled by a dark young for up to 3 rounds.

hamishspence
2010-08-09, 10:59 AM
I wonder if people have played "Cthulhu Past" (D20 Cthulhu rules- set in medieval times)?

The characters could be agents of the Inquisition sent to investigate cults.

Aroka
2010-08-09, 11:09 AM
I wonder if people have played "Cthulhu Past" (D20 Cthulhu rules- set in medieval times)?

The characters could be agents of the Inquisition sent to investigate cults.

I haven't, but it sounds easy enough to do; CoC sourcebooks are mostly non-rules material, so you could just get Cthulhu Dark Ages and use it for setting material.

I do have a love for drawing the parallels between real mythology and the Mythos (Solomon's Yahweh is Yog-Sothoth, etc.), so it could be fun. One of the big campaign frames I've worked on was a grand quest to uncover the terrible secrets of the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon and find the Key of Solomon, and I had a load of fun working out the parallels there (and untangling the myths about both the Templars and Assassins, then choosing which myths to make true and what Mythos element to put behind them).

I could totally get into making a Crusades-era Dark Ages game that explores the foundations of the mystery of the Temple, and I could actually see CoCd20 working better than Trail of Cthulhu for that in some ways...

Or even just a basic horror adventure in Dark Ages Scandinavia set in the dead of winter...

Psyx
2010-08-09, 11:12 AM
HoH is good for 3.5. But 3.5 is a weak system for this. Had you considered... World of Darkness? It's obvious, but does the job well. Although I'm not sure that it has actual fear rules.

The real key to a good horror game though is having a fantastic GM who understands the genre, storytelling and scene-setting.

And you need players who pay attention.

And a darkened room, lit with a couple of candles...



Or even just a basic horror adventure in Dark Ages Scandinavia set in the dead of winter...

Beowulf and Grendel can easily become that if 'told' in the right manner.

Aroka
2010-08-09, 11:18 AM
Beowulf and Grendel can easily become that if 'told' in the right manner.

Even your basic Nordic troll is basically a ghoul: they live in the dark, know magic, and rock that whole changeling scene. Of course, it could be more interesting to use a whole new kind of creature with a Mythos background (underground once-human race, pre-human monsters evolved in the deep earth, etc.).



And you need players who pay attention.

And a darkened room, lit with a couple of candles...

This is so true.

My group has never, ever played Call of Cthulhu when it's light out, and always used nothing but two candles to light the room.

And attention is critical; we'd regularly take breaks for coffee and a bit of exercise to keep everyone awake and alert, and focused on the game; tired players get silly and hyper, and that just won't work. We'd usually stop the session when everyone was getting too hopped up to concentrate on the mood.

Da'Shain
2010-08-09, 11:20 AM
I just read that RPG.net thread, and I have to say, I really, REALLY wish I could play in a game like that. Or run it, but I wouldn't feel confident with my limited experience.


Part 2:
I've been talking with my GM, and I want to use one of my own characters for his campaign. She is the result of several Necromancers' machinations to making a weapon which embodies fear... and they got it. Though she did go out of control and ripped their bodies apart. She spawns zombies from her body due to she being an odd undead construct, but the truly scary thing about her is her alternate personality, or her true power. When she wakes up and takes over, first what happens is she wails like a banshee, and the world around her seems to be taken over by another Silent Hill sort of world. Any ideas on how I should do this sort of temporary Silent Hill takeover? Oh, and when the world around her enters this state, zombies burst forth from the fleshy ground and sinister surroundings. So basically, how could/should I do this without making it too broken/overpowered, yet not overtly weak? It depends on the type of campaign and the power level of your companions of course, but that sounds like it's going to end up dominating a lot of the game, even if it somehow isn't overpowered. To be honest, I think you should focus more on the spawning zombies and undead construct thing and leave the world-altering aspect up to the GM, so that they can run with it in a way which actually involves the other characters rather than simply forcing them to play in what is essentially your character's mind every so often.

If you really have to model it, though, I'd suggest a homebrew power of some sort that is triggered by random percentile roll (checked by GM every day) that transports you and those within a certain radius who fail a Will save to a specific portion of the Negative Energy plane (perhaps a twisted version of your character's hometown when she was alive, populated with wights and nightmares and such?), with the option for those that succeed on the save to follow along if they wish? Your "alternate personality" could actually be split off as a spectre of some power under the GM's control while you continue play as a mostly mindless version of yourself?