What`s so broken about epic spells? (3.5)

[akma]

I keep seeing this coming up: people complaining about that epic spells suck and unbalanced, and I want to know why are they so broken, since I am not very familier with epic rules.
So, why? And how the system can be broken?

[Yora]

Epic spells are based on a Spellcraft DC, and there are so many ways to increase your Spellcraft modifier, or to decrease the DC, that you can create almost infinitely powerful effects right at 21st level.
There's just no cap to the power of Epic spells.

[Aroka]

You can research them for zero cost in zero time by reducing the DC to 0 with mitigation. Mitigation is broken. (This is an easy fix, and it actually seems to be used in Lost Empires of Faerûn in the example of constructing the Silverymoon mythal: mitigation is applied to DC after the cost and time are calculated.)

That said, it's still broken. You can do infinitely looping bonuses (create an epic spell to give yourself an Int bonus that lets you create and cast a more powerful epic spell that gives you a higher Int bonus, etc.).

That, and magic is already the most powerful thing ever, with save-or-loses. With epic magic, it's trivial to take out the "save" part, and then you just have spells whose descriptions could as well be shortened to "you lose, no save."

The ability to literally do anything and everything pretty much means you win, no questions or buts.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't forget about instantaneous-duration buffs, so they last forever and can never be dispelled, similar to how Wish increases ability scores. For example, a spell that instantaneously affects a target with Reflect: Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing. Now as an extraordinary ability that character is not only immune to physical attacks, but the damage from such attacks is actually reflected back onto the attacker.

[Escheton]

For actual play, this won't work. For a virtual armsrace between the bbeg(dm) and the valoreous hero's(players) it could be fun for a night or 2.
But if you want a counterwar you might as play magic: the gathering

[PId6]

The biggest problem is that epic spells are utterly useless without mitigation. Trying to replicate a basic Fireball gets a ridiculously high Spellcraft DC as well as huge costs and research time. For that reason, you're basically forced to employ year-long casting times and millions of followers in ritual spells instead, leading to insanely broken perma-buffs, not to mention looping Int bonuses and exponential Solar armies.

Essentially, epic spells are either broken useless if you employ them "as intended" as combat spells, or broken in the game-breaking way if you mitigate them with longer casting times and rituals casters. There is no middle ground.

[akma]

I kind of like the idea of spellcraft DC to cast spells (I never tried it), but not the fact that the system is broken.
I think I even begin to understand how to break it properly (I would start with a spell that give very high and permenent bonus to spellcraft checks)



For example, a spell that instantaneously affects a target with Reflect: Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing. Now as an extraordinary ability that character is not only immune to physical attacks, but the damage from such attacks is actually reflected back onto the attacker.

That power is so powerfull and usefull I would only give it to objects and gods.

[Private-Prinny]

I kind of like the idea of spellcraft DC to cast spells (I never tried it), but not the fact that the system is broken.
I think I even begin to understand how to break it properly (I would start with a spell that give very high and permanent bonus to spellcraft checks)

That's one way, but it's much easier to summon a horde of angels Solars that kick in one 9th level spell slot each. That decreases the Spellcraft DC to 0, so you don't need XP or gold to make the spell either.


IThat power is so powerful and useful I would only give it to objects and gods.

Exactly. Epic Spells give you god-like power.

[Aroka]

Pretty much all the epic spells in official books are ridiculously bad, too. Elven high magic requires casters contributing 9th-level spell slots to die permanently with no way to be resurrected. Holy crap! Why not just have those casters use their 9th-level spell slots to summon some solars? It sounds like cool magic, but it makes no sense mechanically, especially when the spells themselves have completely worthless effects.

[Popertop]

and with inventive names like Nailed To The Sky and Let Go Of Me, who could have guessed. :smalltongue:

[Scarey Nerd]

and with inventive names like Nailed To The Sky and Let Go Of Me, who could have guessed. :smalltongue:

Nailed To The Sky + Mitigation = :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[Felyndiira]

Momento Mori is a good spell. Dun diss the epic spells in the handbook =p.

Epic spells are mostly broken when they are abused, however. Instantaneous epic buffs with gate and stuff are one example, as is the destroy seed in general. Mostly, however, it's not easy to get epic spells that are that powerful without doing some sort of cheese on it. The reflect seed mentioned earlier, for example, only reflects a certain number of attacks (5) before it extinguishes, and anything higher skyrockets the DC of the seed.

Spellcraft items are not that common either, of course. I mean, there are wands of +20 spellcraft and stuff, although it becomes a real chore to increase it anywhere beyond ~100-140 or so - enough to cast some nice epic spells, but not adequate for the really broken stuff without mitigating cheese like gated solars.


EDIT: Fireball is actually quite cheap as an epic spell.

Epic Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Spellcraft DC: 39
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 300 ft.
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 351,000 gp; 8 days; 14,040 XP. Seed: energy (deals 10d6 fire) (DC 19). Factors: 1-action casting time (+20 DC).

Exactly the same as Fireball.

[Zanatos777]

EDIT: Fireball is actually quite cheap as an epic spell.

Epic Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Spellcraft DC: 39
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 300 ft.
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 351,000 gp; 8 days; 14,040 XP. Seed: energy (deals 10d6 fire) (DC 19). Factors: 1-action casting time (+20 DC).

Exactly the same as Fireball.

Actually that is much worse than fireball due to the difference in range. Fireball is a long range spell so at 21st level its range is 1,240 ft. Further you don't have to spend more money than a 17th level character has (Wealth by Level table) to create it. Sure the range is normally pointless at that level but it could come up. Plus you can still meta the fireball to be more useful.

Edit: you did get rid of the material component, the thing no one keeps track of.

Also I don't mean to sound condescending I am pointing out the differences. I am actually happy to see someone else who has calculated out some of the normal spells as epic spells.:smallsmile:

[Felyndiira]

Also I don't mean to sound condescending I am pointing out the differences. I am actually happy to see someone else who has calculated out some of the normal spells as epic spells.:smallsmile:

That's not the point, though =p. I'm simply creating the spell as a counterargument to PI's "fireball has a high DC" argument (the high research costs, etc., stands correct). However, the range difference isn't that hard to overcome with a bit of seed cheesing (though it does gain quite a bit of DC this way, and doesn't actually detect creatures on other planes/far-away locations):

Epic Extra-Planar Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Spellcraft DC: 70
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Any plane, anywhere.
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 630,000 gp; 13 days; 25,200 XP. Seed: energy (deals 10d6 fire) (DC 19), Seed: transport (DC 27). Factors: 1-action casting time (+20 DC), interplanar travel (+4 DC).

Exactly the same as Fireball, except it can strike targets you are aware of on any plane and in any location.

[ericgrau]

The biggest problem is that epic spells are utterly useless without mitigation. Trying to replicate a basic Fireball gets a ridiculously high Spellcraft DC as well as huge costs and research time. For that reason, you're basically forced to employ year-long casting times and millions of followers in ritual spells instead, leading to insanely broken perma-buffs, not to mention looping Int bonuses and exponential Solar armies.

Essentially, epic spells are either broken useless if you employ them "as intended" as combat spells, or broken in the game-breaking way if you mitigate them with longer casting times and rituals casters. There is no middle ground.
I've heard this 100 times and as I've never heard a counter-argument I'm inclined to believe it. But I've also never seen someone run the numbers.

Fireball
Energy Seed: DC 19
1-action casting time: +20
Range x 4: +4
Total DC: 43
Special Notes: Save DC is 7 higher than an ordinary fireball, decent chance of working in an anti-magic field

Level 22 caster:
Int = 15 + 6 (item) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tomes) = 31. +10 spellcraft
Spellcraft Ranks:25
25+ ranks in knowledge Arcana: +4
Luckstone + ioun stone for +2 to all skill checks: +2
Total Spellcraft Modifier: 41
It is also highly likely that casters will only develop spells in their specialty school (+5), have feat(s) (+2,+3,+10) and/or have an epic magic item at higher levels (+30).

Not hard to make. But surely fireball is an exaggeration. Can someone run the numbers for something more like a 9th+ level spell, or give me a link to someone running the numbers?

[Jack_Simth]

Okay... let's go with Wail of the Banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm). Close range, 40 foot spread, 1 target/level, Verbal only, Standard Action, Save-or-die.

So we start with Slay (DC 25, 1 minute, single-target). Treating it as a Wail at caster level 20, we need 20 targets - so +19*8 for that upgrade (+152 = 177). Standard Action casting time is +20 (197). No Somatic Component is +2 (199).

Now, there's some differences - Wail of the Banshee is Sonic, and thus stopped by a Silence spell (Slay doesn't). Wail of the Banshee requires the target be able to hear it (Slay doesn't). Slay is longer range (300 feet, vs. 75 for Wail of the Banshee at caster level 20). This Slay will get any targets in that 300 foot range, and skips friendlies, Wail of the Banshee requires they be grouped together, and doesn't. There's a few others.

But that's a 199 spellcraft DC, costing 1,791,000 gp to develop, 71,640 xp to develop, and and 36 days to research.

[elonin]

Is epic psionics just as bad?

[The Glyphstone]

They use the same rules, but with Psicraft instead of Spellcraft, so yeah.

[Crow]

Here are a couple spells that I made using the epic rules. Hardly game-breaking. I made them for my 21st level sorcerer.


Elsa's Delicate Skin
Conjuration (Creation) [Force]
Spellcraft DC: 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 24 hours (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 54,000gp, 2 days, 2160xp. Seed: Armor (DC 14). Factors: 6 Additional natural armor bonus (+12) Mitigating Factors: 10-minute casting time (-18), target personal (-2)

Description: This spell causes the caster's hair and skin to radiate with an almost imperceptible light for the duration of the spell. Once cast, the caster's skin becomes incredibly resilient, granting the caster a +10 natural armor bonus.

Elsa's Fountain of Youth
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 28 days
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 0gp, 1 day, 0xp. Seed: Transform Factors: Transform to specific form (+25), Up to 30 hit die (+30) Mitigating Factors: target personal (-2), 28-day casting time (-74)

Description: Cast at midnight on a new moon, this spell transforms the caster into the form of their 24 year-old self, over the course of a single cycle of the moon. This effectively removes any ability penalties the caster may have experienced due to aging. This spell does not alter the actual age of the caster, only mitigating ability penalties due to advancing age categories. When the subject reaches their maximum age, they die from old age as normal. This spell functions so long as the caster has no more than 30 hit dice. If the caster has over 30 hit die at the time of casting this spell, the spell simply fails.

Blade of the Wraith
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 14 days
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One melee weapon
Duration: Permanant
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
To Develop: 0gp, 1 day, 0xp. Seed: Transform Factors: Transform to incorporeal form (+10), Up to 30 hardness (+15) Mitigating Factors: 14-day casting time (-46)

Description: This 14-day ordeal partially imbues one melee weapon (with no more than 30 hardness) with the incorporeal properties of a wraith. Using the caster's own blood, a series of runes are drawn upon the weapon, which fade away upon completion of the spell. When complete, the weapon becomes semi-translucent, though still weighs as heavily in the wielder's hand. Melee attacks made with this weapon are resolved as melee touch attacks rather than normal melee attacks. Within an anti-magic field, the weapon acts as a normal weapon of it's type.

One is basically a permanant wraithstrike, another gets rid of aging penalties, and the other is just a little AC bonus. Granted I did mitigate two of the spells to 0 DC, but I'd say with what you could do with epic if you really abused it, this isn't all that bad, and in fact is stuff an epic caster should be able to do.

[hamishspence]

They use the same rules, but with Psicraft instead of Spellcraft, so yeah.

I think the DCs are higher for psionic healing powers though- at least in the Epic Handbook.

[ericgrau]

Okay... let's go with Wail of the Banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm). Close range, 40 foot spread, 1 target/level, Verbal only, Standard Action, Save-or-die.

So we start with Slay (DC 25, 1 minute, single-target). Treating it as a Wail at caster level 20, we need 20 targets - so +19*8 for that upgrade (+152 = 177). Standard Action casting time is +20 (197). No Somatic Component is +2 (199).

Now, there's some differences - Wail of the Banshee is Sonic, and thus stopped by a Silence spell (Slay doesn't). Wail of the Banshee requires the target be able to hear it (Slay doesn't). Slay is longer range (300 feet, vs. 75 for Wail of the Banshee at caster level 20). This Slay will get any targets in that 300 foot range, and skips friendlies, Wail of the Banshee requires they be grouped together, and doesn't. There's a few others.

But that's a 199 spellcraft DC, costing 1,791,000 gp to develop, 71,640 xp to develop, and and 36 days to research.
The vast majority of that DC is from hitting 20 targets, and you won't even be able to use half that on a wail of the banshee 99.5% of the time. There are also a lot of extra bonuses to the spell. In addition to what you listed, there's 100 times the area of effect. More examples (or links to more examples) might help.

[elonin]

Thought that with epic magic slots could be made irrelevant. And that power points limit things a bit more.

[ZeroNumerous]

..., and in fact is stuff an epic caster should be able to do.

Except Alter Self can give you +6 Natural Armor on it's own, agelessness is hilariously easy to come by(be an elan, for starters) and persistent(functionally permanent) wraithstrike can be handed out by clerics with the Magic/Spell domains if they so choose.

It's not stuff an epic caster should be able to do. It's stuff you can nearly completely replicate below 8th level for less cost and time invested.

[Crow]

Except Alter Self can give you +6 Natural Armor on it's own, agelessness is hilariously easy to come by(be an elan, for starters) and persistent(functionally permanent) wraithstrike can be handed out by clerics with the Magic/Spell domains if they so choose.

It's not stuff an epic caster should be able to do. It's stuff you can nearly completely replicate below 8th level for less cost and time invested.

Well you can cast an epic wraithstrike once, or you can use a spell slot every day for the rest of your life. Since it's free, I think you'd have to be really dense to go with the spell slot.

Being an Elan isn't exactly on everybody's list of to-do's. Some people like being human or elf or whatever they are, and again, it's free with the epic spell, so why the hell not?

Alter Self is a ridiculously broken spell. The epic spell example I posted is not. Besides, not every setting is going to have the perfect creature for you to turn into.

[Flickerdart]

Alter Self is a ridiculously broken spell. The epic spell example I posted is not. Besides, not every setting is going to have the perfect creature for you to turn into.
Origin Of Species: Perfect Creature For You To Turn Into :smallbiggrin:

[Crow]

Origin Of Species: Perfect Creature For You To Turn Into :smallbiggrin:

Now that's a real solution.

[Jack_Simth]

The vast majority of that DC is from hitting 20 targets, and you won't even be able to use half that on a wail of the banshee 99.5% of the time. There are also a lot of extra bonuses to the spell. In addition to what you listed, there's 100 times the area of effect. More examples (or links to more examples) might help.Okay.... pick a spell, then.

[The Glyphstone]

Umm....Magic Missile?:smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

You can research them for zero cost in zero time by reducing the DC to 0 with mitigation. Mitigation is broken. (This is an easy fix, and it actually seems to be used in Lost Empires of Faerûn in the example of constructing the Silverymoon mythal: mitigation is applied to DC after the cost and time are calculated.)

Oddly, it seems to be the only mythal that works this way. Both the Dracorage Mythal, and the King-Killer Shield (in Dragons of Faerun), have gold and XP costs for the post-mitigation Spellcraft DC.

So, the Dracorage Mythal has a DC of 59 and costs 531000 gp to research.

[Protecar]

Okay.... pick a spell, then.

Oo! Oo! How about Time Stop? Or Maw of Chaos? Shapechange? :smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

Umm....Magic Missile?:smallbiggrin:

Let's see... the Base epic spells don't have a good fit, so we call it Sonic and go with the Energy seed (19). The Range (300 feet) is right already for a Magic Missle at caster level 20. Magic Missile deals 5d4+5 damage, so we're doing about double - dropping the damage size as low as it can go (10d4) puts a -5 on it (DC 14). Changing from Area to Target is +4, so DC 18. Standard Action is +20, so DC 38. Costing 342,000 gp, 13,680 xp, and seven days to research.

Oh yes, and it's Reflex Half, and Protection from Energy (Sonic) neutralizes it completely.

[ericgrau]

Ya it's hard to make a spell fit. You could do wail of the banshee with only 4-6 targets since that's more typical, with maybe some ad hoc decrees for disadvantages. Or a footnote like the higher save DC on the fireball so people know that maybe the spellcraft DC should be slightly lower than the answer you calculate. But that's fuzzy. Wail of the Banshee is pretty hard to do. Meteor swarm would probably be easier to make since it already matches the energy seed, or at least an empowered meteor swarm (level 11ish) to match the 10d6 per ball-ness. I mean it doesn't have to be exact, but +152 to the DC for a bunch of targets wail of the banshee almost never gets is just plain nuts.

[Aroka]

Oddly, it seems to be the only mythal that works this way. Both the Dracorage Mythal, and the King-Killer Shield (in Dragons of Faerun), have gold and XP costs for the post-mitigation Spellcraft DC.

So, the Dracorage Mythal has a DC of 59 and costs 531000 gp to research.

Well, it'd be crazy to expect them to consistently apply the one good mechanical idea someone had.

[akma]

The gold and xp costs seem huge... Also, the time that needed to be spent on making/casting epic spells is too high for my taste, since adventures might not have pauses for a few weeks in game.
Is there any part of epic spells that isn`t broken? How could the creators of epic spells not see it?

P.S. I can`t find a list of mitigating factors anywhere in the D20SRD. Where can I see a list of them?

[Jack_Simth]

The gold and xp costs seem huge... Also, the time that needed to be spent on making/casting epic spells is too high for my taste, since adventures might not have pauses for a few weeks in game.
Is there any part of epic spells that isn`t broken?
Generally, either broken-good, or broken-bad. There's little, if anything, in between.

How could the creators of epic spells not see it?
Ah... there's a rather lot of WotC-published stuff that could apply to.



P.S. I can`t find a list of mitigating factors anywhere in the D20SRD. Where can I see a list of them?
In here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm).

[Tyndmyr]

Is there any part of epic spells that isn`t broken?

Not really, no.


How could the creators of epic spells not see it?

I haven't the slightest idea. My theory involves giant piles of cocaine.

On a slightly more serious note, epic has often been a dumping ground of "this is frigging awesome, let's just call it epic and throw silly high numbers at it". Epic monster CR, for instance, is pretty sketchy as well. Epic feats vary from frigging awesome to...seriously? Why would you take that? Basically, epic stuff in general isn't all that balanced. Epic spellcasting just happens to be particularly bad.

[elonin]

Is there the same sort of armistice between players and dm's with epic spells that exists with disjunction?

I've been tossing around the idea that entirely different departments had different concepts for the game and/or how things work, which might explain epic spells UA and some other things.

[Starbuck_II]

Not really, no.


What about:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/timeDuplicate.htm

Not enough mitigation, but a good balanced spell (heck, basically a psionic power called Fission in spell form).

Or
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/contingentResurrection.htm
Basically Contingent Resurrection spell (why not True resurrection though?).
Balanced though lack luster.

Or:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/damnation.htm
Basically, Planeshift but compulses them not to leave for a day.

Or:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/summonBehemoth.htm
Needs more mitigation but balanced.

So there are balanced Epic spells. The rest are too weak.

[Tyndmyr]

What about:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/timeDuplicate.htm

Not enough mitigation, but a good balanced spell (heck, basically a psionic power called Fission in spell form).

The celerity line is equivalent(better, if you use stun immune cheese), and ridiculously low level compared to epic.


Or
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/contingentResurrection.htm
Basically Contingent Resurrection spell (why not True resurrection though?).
Balanced though lack luster.

Well, the infinite duration is nice, I'll grant you that. But contingent raise dead is vastly more available, for almost as good of an effect(you still lose the lev), or with a feat investment, craft contingent spell can replicate or surpass it...and it's comparatively inexpensive. Plus, craft contingent spell is usefull for a variety of other things as well, so it's not really a wasted feat.


Or:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/damnation.htm
Basically, Planeshift but compulses them not to leave for a day.

Yeah, and it burns xp as a mitigating factor. Only a 20 hr duration, btw. Only has one possible target plane, and only sends on person, so dramatically weaker than plane shift in that regard. And it STILL has a 97 spellcraft dc, which requires relatively major pumpage. The only practical use of this spell is as a DM plot device to get parties to go to hell.

Yeah, pass.


Or:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/summonBehemoth.htm
Needs more mitigation but balanced.

So there are balanced Epic spells. The rest are too weak.

In epic, summoning a meatshield isn't really all that, yknow, epic. Note that the range is only 75 feet, and duration is only 20 rounds. Both of these are equal to casting a vanilla summon spell at cl 20. So, the only real advantage over a vanilla summons is CR of your beastie.

Of course, gate is ludicrously better.

[awa]

keep in mind these spells are really expensive they had better do something pretty impressive for the amount of cash you are pumping into them.