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Crasical
2010-08-08, 10:38 AM
Howdy, all. First post here on the boards.

I don't play 3.5 much, but reading elsewhere inspired me, so I've ended up working on a fairly weird character build, and I've run into a few snags.

The character is based on throwing swords at people, Sort of like a poor man's Gates of Babylon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mNBMOKtxjo#t=1m6s)/Unlimited Blade Works (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZBAEk_Ugmk#t=5m8s)/ Whoever this guy is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCH-vkRhuq8).

So far, I've decided on a few things:

The character will probably be Fighter 5/Master Thrower 5
The character will probably be Human.
The character needs the 'Throw Anything' feat to throw swords at people. The feat requires BAB 2 and a dex of 15 or better and does exactly what it sounds like.


However, a lot is up in the air, mostly considering feats. I have to take Point blank Shot (Would anyway, even if not required), Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus.

Other feats that sounded good:

Quick Draw: Get this anyway when taking first level of Master Thrower
Far Shot: Throw swords 20 feet instead of 10
Rapid Shot: Must throw more swords.
Manyshot: Throw even more swords
Two Weapon Fighting: Throw more swords, and need to meet the dex requirement anyway to take 'Throw Anything'.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting: Another attack. MORE SWORDS
Brutal Throw: Deeply unsure about this one, since it changes my attacks to use STR instead of DEX. After noting that I needed 15 dex or more to take Throw Anything, I think I abandoned the idea of a str based thrower completely.
Power Throw: Can Power Attack with throws. Need the real power attack and Brutal throw.



ISSUES AND THINGS I DO NOT LIKE:

The thrown weapon tricks are nice, but only work with the single Weapon Focus I have, which has to be a ranged weapon. I think the best choices are Shortspear and Dagger, but not being able to use most of the best parts of the class except with that weapon really hurts.

I don't have power attack, Cleave, or any other melee enhancers. It's fine if I'm just lobbing swords, but will I still be able to melee?

Should I be dex-focused, or split dex/str?

I'm fairly certain that this is actually going to be LESS effective than someone with a longbow, currently.

Am I missing anything here, and can anyone offer suggestions?

The Dark Fiddler
2010-08-08, 10:43 AM
Am I missing anything here, and can anyone offer suggestions?

If you have Tome of Battle, consider Warblade > Bloodstorm Blade instead. Note, I don't actually know Master Thrower, but I've seen BB brought up more than MT so I figure it's better or something.

Bloodstorm Blade gets you cool abilities like the ability to automatically have your weapon be returning and use feats like Power Attack as if you were melee-attacking.

Force
2010-08-08, 10:44 AM
If you have access to the Tome of Battle, take the Bloodstorm Blade PrC. It gives you Throw Anything as a free bonus feat, makes your weapons return to you without the Returning enhancement, and lets you adjust such feats as your Weapons Focus from, say, greataxe to longsword 1/day. It has a lot more fun abilities, too. Replacing your fighter levels with, say, Warblade would also give your character a lot more "punch".

EDIT: Bah, swordsage'd!

Boci
2010-08-08, 10:46 AM
If you have Tome of Battle, consider Warblade > Bloodstorm Blade instead. Note, I don't actually know Master Thrower, but I've seen BB brought up more than MT so I figure it's better or something.

Bloodstorm Blade gets you cool abilities like the ability to automatically have your weapon be returning and use feats like Power Attack as if you were melee-attacking.

BB is better for 2 level dips, MT is better for 5 levels. MT 5 allows you to target the touch AC, along with other goodies.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-08, 10:47 AM
bloodstorm blade is a prestige class that lets you throw weapons and have them bounce back
power throw lets you use STR instead of DEX on your thrown to-hit. Give them a check.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 10:47 AM
I sadly don't have the Tome of battle, sadly. Also, how does the Returning ability for Bloodstorm Blade work? Do the swords/daggers/whatever just doink off and your character catches them?

Sounds like it has the potential to be fairly silly looking.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-08, 10:48 AM
I sadly don't have the Tome of battle, sadly. Also, how does the Returning ability for Bloodstorm Blade work? Do the swords/daggers/whatever just doink off and your character catches them?

Sounds like it has the potential to be fairly silly looking.

Pretty much. It's the same as the weapon enhancement "Returning"

You also quoted Archer. You can't complain about the silliness =P

Crasical
2010-08-08, 10:52 AM
You also quoted Archer. You can't complain about the silliness =P

Can too.


bloodstorm blade is a prestige class that lets you throw weapons and have them bounce back
power throw lets you use STR instead of DEX on your thrown to-hit. Give them a check.

I did already see the Power Throw feat, but the way I had it set up I was going to be dex-focused instead of Str-focused.


BB is better for 2 level dips, MT is better for 5 levels. MT 5 allows you to target the touch AC, along with other goodies.

Does the Bloodstorm Blade have the limitation of Master Thrower? Namely that I have to use specific throwing weapons to get the bonuses of the 'tricks', the one I weapon focused?

EDIT FOR FURTHER QUESTION:
Also, what is a Warblade and why would one be more appropriate/efficient than a straight fighter?

Boci
2010-08-08, 10:57 AM
Does the Bloodstorm Blade have the limitation of Master Thrower? Namely that I have to use specific throwing weapons to get the bonuses of the 'tricks', the one I weapon focused?

Nope. Even lets you treat a ranged attack as a melee strike for the purpose of PA and other things.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-08, 11:00 AM
EDIT FOR FURTHER QUESTION:
Also, what is a Warblade and why would one be more appropriate/efficient than a straight fighter?

It's one of the base classes from Tome of Battle.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2
The maneuvers are also freely available there.
Maneuvers are, essentially, Ex abilities that ToB characters can use, similar to spells. For example the boost maneuver "Sudden Leap". It lets you perform a jump check (and move accordingly) as a swift action.

Critical
2010-08-08, 11:07 AM
]The character will probably be Fighter 5/Master Thrower 5

*twitch*

Alright, seriously, this is pretty hard to do effectively without Tome of Battle. But if you're still up for that - Throwing + Returning enchantments on your longsword + Sneak Attack + Craven + Greter Invisibility. Invisible swords, duh!

Crasical
2010-08-08, 11:14 AM
*twitch*

What? Are level 5 fighters taboo?

Boci
2010-08-08, 11:16 AM
What? Are level 5 fighters taboo?

Yep, you gain +1 BAB, d10 hp and 2 skill points. Any other full BAB class is usually better.

Critical
2010-08-08, 11:17 AM
What? Are level 5 fighters taboo?
Yes, because you don't get a bonus feat at level 5. You'd be better of if you spent that 5th level on something else, barbarian, for example.

EDIT: Slightly Cleric of Olidammara'd.

Heliomance
2010-08-08, 11:18 AM
Never take an odd number of levels in Fighter, unless it's 1. That fifth level is getting you precisely sod all squared in a bucket.

Grr, Swordsaged

Prime32
2010-08-08, 11:18 AM
What? Are level 5 fighters taboo?Fighters gain no class features at odd levels.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 11:28 AM
Odd, barely tangential question: I've heard people reference a 'Human Paragon' PRC. What book is that one from?

Edit: Nevermind, found it on the D20SRD.

Eldan
2010-08-08, 11:30 AM
You could also consider 2 levels of ranger since you take the feats anyway.

Kobold-Bard
2010-08-08, 11:33 AM
Paragon classes are 3 level classes available at d20srd.com and that book of variants (urban arcana?).

Each gives bonuses based on that particular race.

Greenish
2010-08-08, 11:38 AM
(urban arcana?).Unearthed Arcana, not to be confused with Urban Arcana (which is d20 modern, I think?) or Arcana Unearthed.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 11:44 AM
I believe I have become distracted. Depending on where this train of thought goes, this character's going to be either awesome in a can or utterly bizarre and horrifying.

EDIT: "Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action."
If I throw a Bastard Sword, is it Full-round or Standard? Does it change depending on if I have Exotic Weapon Proficiency with it?

Morph Bark
2010-08-08, 11:47 AM
bloodstorm blade is a prestige class that lets you throw weapons and have them bounce back
power throw lets you use STR instead of DEX on your thrown to-hit. Give them a check.

I thought for thrown weapons you normally already use your Str mod for attack rolls rather than your Dex mod? :smallconfused:

Urpriest
2010-08-08, 11:52 AM
One thing to remember: normal Returning is a weapon enchantment that will bring the weapon back to you at the end of the round. Thus if you have multiple attacks you need to quick draw multiple magic swords. Bloodstorm Blade lets you get your weapon back after every attack, which means you need fewer magic weapons to get a full full attack. Without that it's much trickier to build a full thrower build.

Urpriest
2010-08-08, 11:54 AM
I thought for thrown weapons you normally already use your Str mod for attack rolls rather than your Dex mod? :smallconfused:

Nope, that's 4e. You get Str to damage, though.

Boci
2010-08-08, 11:59 AM
Nope, that's 4e. You get Str to damage, though.

And BB gives you 1/5 strength to weapons throw with both hands.

Escheton
2010-08-08, 12:08 PM
Swords are cool, harpoons are awesome.
'Specially with a build like this. Harpwn-spam.

Consider just stuffing a quiver of ehlonna/mielikki with swords.
Get 2, like the 3rd link guy.

There are also gloves for 10 to 12k in one of the fearunbooks, shining south I think, that gives any weapon you hold distance and returning.
Which is awesome because its a flat cost and does not up the cost of your magic weapons.

Volos
2010-08-08, 12:09 PM
Magic enhancements to consider.
The distance ability will double your range again.
Throwing ability will allow it to be thrown without wasting a feat.
Seeking ability will make it turn corners and dodge obstacles to hit the bad guy.

Just have two and you should be fine.

Morph Bark
2010-08-08, 12:15 PM
Nope, that's 4e. You get Str to damage, though.

I see... thanks for the correction.

...wait, considering shuriken are thrown weapons, this means a single shuriken could do significant damage if the thrower's Str is high enough, doesn't it? Or would the Str mod not be added in case of the shuriken, considering there are differences in rules for them between them and other thrown weapons already? ('sfar as I know the only difference is in drawing them, but I'd rather make sure.)

mjames
2010-08-08, 12:19 PM
If you can find a tome of battle (even a *cough* pdf *cough*), it is definetly worth it. I actually managed to find the last copy in my city. I cherish it like a firstborn child....

It makes melee fun and playable. If you can use the pdf form and get at least two levels of the throwing PRC so that you can have that changing Weapon Focus/Aptitude and returning weapons (not sure which level as I'm away from book), it will greatly improve your Master Thrower.

Defiant
2010-08-08, 12:29 PM
I just have to pitch in here...

I love the title :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-08-08, 12:37 PM
EDIT: "Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action."
If I throw a Bastard Sword, is it Full-round or Standard? Does it change depending on if I have Exotic Weapon Proficiency with it?Bastard Swords are 1-handed weapons, but I should think the rule means whether you're holding the weapon with one hand or two.

...wait, considering shuriken are thrown weapons, this means a single shuriken could do significant damage if the thrower's Str is high enough, doesn't it? Or would the Str mod not be added in case of the shuriken, considering there are differences in rules for them between them and other thrown weapons already? ('sfar as I know the only difference is in drawing them, but I'd rather make sure.)Shuriken get Strength to damage like other thrown weapons, though doing significant damage with them would require obscene strength.

Morph Bark
2010-08-08, 12:52 PM
Shuriken get Strength to damage like other thrown weapons, though doing significant damage with them would require obscene strength.

Well, my group uses the rule that you can throw up to three shuriken with one throw (I think 3.0 had that too), so yeah.

Also, this build needs more Iaijutsu Focus.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 01:02 PM
If you can find a tome of battle (even a *cough* pdf *cough*)

I did a quick borrowing of the PDF from a friend, combined with a bit of lunacy from a friend... Seems interesting so far. I'm starting to range far afield as I look up other stuff that I once heard.... So far I've got this:

Human Paragon 1 (Bab +0), d8 hp [Adaptive Learning][Special Human feat, Level 1 feat]
Human Paragon 2 (Bab +1), d8 hp [Bonus Feat]
Warblade 1 (Bab +2), d12hp [Battle Clarity (ref), Weapon Aptitude][level 3 feat]
Warblade 2 (Bab +3), d12hp [Uncanny Dodge][Stat+1]
Warblade 3 (Bab +3), d12hp [Battle Ardor (Crit confirmation)]



Adaptive learning, get Perform as a class skill forever.
BSB requires BALANCE, 8 ranks and Blank Point Shot. Need One Iron Heart Strike and Iron Heart stance.

Levels 1-5, split skill for 8 balance, 8 perform, since you get 4+int skill per level

Warblade 3, 5 maneuvers, 1 stance.

Level 1: Steely Strike (Strike), Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind
level 2: Emerald Razor
Level 3: Absolute Steel (Stance)



FEATS:
(1) EWP: Bastard Sword,
(2)
(3) Point Blank Shot



LOOT
Slippers of Battledancing from the Dungeon Master's Guide II for 33,750 gp, which will nearly always give you your Charisma bonus to attack and damage rolls
You can get a continuous Ring of Undersong for a low, low price of only 1 (spell level) × 2 (caster level) × 2,000 (continuous) × 2 (one minute per level) = 8,000 gp

With the intention of having High Charisma, using the slippers from the DMG to let me use Cha for tohit and damage rolls, the Ring letting me Substitute Perform(Breakdance) or whatever for the Concentration checks to use the Diamond Mine maneuvers.

So you get a guy who's prancing around with Bastard Swords/Katanas, throws them and has it rocket around the battlefield slicing things before he catches it again, and dances anytime anyone makes him do as saving throw.

I don't know why but this makes me giggle. I probably shouldn't play around with internet access and DnD splatbooks, the combination is going to lead to someone hurting themselves.



I love the title :smallbiggrin:

Thank you!

EDIT: It occurs to me that I've probably become slightly distracted from my original intent with this exercise.

Greenish
2010-08-08, 01:13 PM
Adaptive learning, get Perform Iaijitsu as a class skill forever. Fixed. Also, stick to longswords, bastard swords aren't worth the feat.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 01:15 PM
Fixed. Also, stick to longswords, bastard swords aren't worth the feat.

Okay, what is Iajutsu, and why is it great?

Edit: Distracted again. By playing a Human Fighter with high dex, is it possible to take Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid reload, and Quick Draw, and a pair of light crossbows to have an attack pattern of

Attack [standard action]
Offhand Attack [Extra action]
Holster Crossbow #2 [Free Action]
Rapid Reload Crossbow #1[Free Action]
Holster Crossbow #1 [Free Action]
Quick-draw Crossbow #2[Free action]
Rapid Reload Crossbow #2[Free Action]
Quick-draw Crossbow #1[Free action]

... And if so, what would it look like?

Greenish
2010-08-08, 01:21 PM
Okay, what is Iajutsu, and why is it great?It's a skill from OA. Make a check when you attack with a weapon you just drew against a flat-footed opponent to deal extra damage. It's handy for the extra damage, especially if you're a thrower who draws a new weapon for each attack.

You combo it with Iaijutsu Master PrC for sillyness.

Morph Bark
2010-08-08, 01:23 PM
It's a skill from OA. Make a check when you attack with a weapon you just drew against a flat-footed opponent to deal extra damage. It's handy for the extra damage, especially if you're a thrower who draws a new weapon for each attack.

You combo it with Iaijutsu Master PrC for sillyness.

Iaijutsu Master 5 to be precise. Less of it makes it less awesome, more of it is not all that useful, even though the two-cuts-for-one thing is nifty.

Greenish
2010-08-08, 01:27 PM
There was a Iaijutsu Master/Bloodstorm Blade around the forum not long ago, I seem to recall.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 01:29 PM
It's a skill from OA. Make a check when you attack with a weapon you just drew against a flat-footed opponent to deal extra damage. It's handy for the extra damage, especially if you're a thrower who draws a new weapon for each attack.

You combo it with Iaijutsu Master PrC for sillyness.

So you need to draw the weapon for it to count? wouldn't most of the nifty returning abilities not work then? Or is this steadily moving towards a guy with a 12-pack of nonmagical broadswords on each hip?

Greenish
2010-08-08, 01:31 PM
So you need to draw the weapon for it to count? wouldn't most of the nifty returning abilities not work then? Or is this steadily moving towards a guy with a 12-pack of nonmagical broadswords on each hip?Efficient Quiver filled with katanas. :smallcool:

If you want a less silly thrower, well, you can do a lot worse than warblade/bloodstorm blade4.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 01:32 PM
Efficient Quiver filled with katanas. :smallcool:

If you want a less silly thrower, well, you can do a lot worse than warblade/bloodstorm blade4.

I dunno, it was kind of silly before, but now I'm kind of liking it.

Morph Bark
2010-08-08, 01:34 PM
Efficient Quiver filled with katanas. :smallcool:

That is basically Mifune from Soul Eater, and the first post actually linked to a YouTube vid showing how he goes about that. :smallamused:

Crasical
2010-08-08, 01:45 PM
Sooooooo.

Human Exemplar to get Iajutsu Focus.
Warblade for a few levels to pick up the prereqs for Bloodstorm.
Bloodstorm for a few levels to get ridiculous pinball swords.
Iajutsu master to do horrible things with thrown swords.

Some mix like that?

Morph Bark
2010-08-08, 02:18 PM
Sooooooo.

Human Exemplar to get Iajutsu Focus.
Warblade for a few levels to pick up the prereqs for Bloodstorm.
Bloodstorm for a few levels to get ridiculous pinball swords.
Iajutsu master to do horrible things with thrown swords.

Some mix like that?

Decent start, yeah. Bloodstorm Blade for 2 or 4 levels, depending on if you want to add more PrCs, and Iaijutsu Master is prettymuch 5 levels. If you don't do anything else and go up to high levels, Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Iaijutsu Master 5 would be solid to start with, I'd say off the top of my head.

Escheton
2010-08-08, 02:21 PM
Balance the swords so they always fall blade first. Because they return to the spot you where when you threw them. If you are no longer there because you tumbled halfway across the battlefield you want its pummel sticking upward for easy grabbing later on. Again, like the 3rd vid.

Flickerdart
2010-08-08, 02:29 PM
Okay, what is Iajutsu, and why is it great?

Edit: Distracted again. By playing a Human Fighter with high dex, is it possible to take Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid reload, and Quick Draw, and a pair of light crossbows to have an attack pattern of

Attack [standard action]
Offhand Attack [Extra action]
Holster Crossbow #2 [Free Action]
Rapid Reload Crossbow #1[Free Action]
Holster Crossbow #1 [Free Action]
Quick-draw Crossbow #2[Free action]
Rapid Reload Crossbow #2[Free Action]
Quick-draw Crossbow #1[Free action]

... And if so, what would it look like?
It isn't a free action to holster a weapon, just to drop it.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 02:34 PM
It isn't a free action to holster a weapon, just to drop it.

Dang. That would have been a fun character to play in low-level games.


Decent start, yeah. Bloodstorm Blade for 2 or 4 levels, depending on if you want to add more PrCs, and Iaijutsu Master is prettymuch 5 levels. If you don't do anything else and go up to high levels, Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Iaijutsu Master 5 would be solid to start with, I'd say off the top of my head.

Don't I need a level of Exemplar in there to make Iajutsu a class skill?

Escheton
2010-08-08, 02:38 PM
So you might want to get a small army of unseen servants to grab those and holster them/chuck them in a portable hole.
I do recall from reading shax's http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101 there is a nifty item that does that.

Morph Bark
2010-08-08, 03:18 PM
Don't I need a level of Exemplar in there to make Iajutsu a class skill?

I don't know, I'm not that familiar with that PrC, but I thought there was a feat that makes a cross-class skill into a class skill?

Runeclaw
2010-08-08, 03:19 PM
I'm fairly certain that this is actually going to be LESS effective than someone with a longbow, currently.

Surely it would be a terrible flaw in the game system if this wasn't true.


Sounds like it has the potential to be fairly silly looking.

As opposed to someone throwing multiple swords at their enemies?

Crasical
2010-08-08, 03:35 PM
Surely it would be a terrible flaw in the game system if this wasn't true.

Well, yes, but choosing the awesome-but-impractical method is fun sometimes. I wanted to point out that if I was going for raw efficiency I'd just use a bow.

Zieu
2010-08-08, 04:16 PM
You may as well leave out Manyshot as a feat. First off, I don't think it even applies to throwing weapons -- it's basically the ability to nock extra arrows on your bow at a substantial penalty. And then, even if it did work, you can only throw them at a single target instead of "volley throwing", as I imagine that's what you were going for. Third, it doesn't stack with Rapid Shot. My ranger has these two abilities, and it's been pointed out as such...

Darrin
2010-08-08, 04:40 PM
So you might want to get a small army of unseen servants to grab those and holster them/chuck them in a portable hole.
I do recall from reading shax's http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101 there is a nifty item that does that.

I'm not sure if the Collar of Perpetual Attendance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) will create more than one servant at a time. It says "at will" and doesn't specify a duration... so it might, but you'll want to run that by your DM first. However, there's a spell called servant horde in the Spell Compendium that can create 2d6 + 1/CL servants all at once. But yeah, if you had a gaggle of them, you could tell them to pick up any weapon you drop and re-sheath or re-stow it.

Gnome quickrazors can also be re-sheathed as a free action. That's the weapon that gets the most abuse out of Iajutsu focus.

Greenish
2010-08-08, 04:50 PM
Balance the swords so they always fall blade first. Because they return to the spot you where when you threw them.Unless you have the 4 levels in Bloodstorm Blade. If you do, they will instantly return to your hand once the attack is resolved.

dgnslyr
2010-08-08, 05:56 PM
There was a Iaijutsu Master/Bloodstorm Blade around the forum not long ago, I seem to recall.

I had that one bookmarked, it was so awesome.
Linky here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276).

In short, it revolves around throwing katanas, though I think any weapon could do. Not so strong in melee, once your katanas are thrown, you'll have to just smack people with your non-throwing katana while using Sapphire Nightmare Blade.

Edit: added a tl, dr.

minchazo
2010-08-08, 11:10 PM
Just to go against the grain and put it a vote for Master Thrower instead of BB:

IMO, if you chose Master Thrower, it's for one of two reasons: ranged touch attacks or throwing two weapons with each attack.

Both of these abilities do not allow strength to damage, so you will have to come up with a different means of dealing damage. Other than what has already been mentioned (Sneak Attack/Iajitsu Focus), you can: use Power Throw, use "Lady's Gambit" feat (found on Crystal Keep's feat index), use the Fighter's ACF in "Drow of the Underdark."

Definitely look into the feat "Ranged Weapon Mastery - Slashing". It's like Weapon Specialization & Far Shot combined.

I test-built a rock thrower a while ago that had 14 lvls of fighter just to prove to myself that a fighter could be useful at high levels. I'll have to post it sometime...

Chambers
2010-08-08, 11:51 PM
...

Soulknife.

[runs and hides from thrown fruits and vegetables]

Take a look a PId6's revision here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6128287#post6128287). You're throwing your "sword" at 3rd level and it always "returns" to you. At 5th level you can throw as many swords as you have attacks from BAB.

Go from there into Master Thrower for tasty thrown weapon tricks.

And it works with Iaijutsu Focus, since with the Free Draw soulknife ability you are technically drawing the weapon every time you throw it. Get some flat-footed opponents and go to town.

Crasical
2010-08-09, 04:13 AM
...

Soulknife.


*throws fruits and vegetables*

I actually made an attempt to make a SoulKnife a while back but couldn't find anything that synergized with it enough to hold my interest.


Just to go against the grain and put it a vote for Master Thrower instead of BB

I'm actually mostly settled on using Warblade, if for the single reason that (From what I've read) anytime an opponent is flatfooted you can roll Iaijutsu focus. There are apparently 3 ways to make an opponent flat-footed:

Win initiative and attack him
Force him to make a balance check (Only if he has less than 5 ranks in balance, and requires I carry around bags of marbles and get the wizard to cast Grease a lot)
Use the Diamond Mind strike 'Sapphire Nightmare Blade' which lets me deal a d6 of extra damage and count an enemy as flat-footed for the attack, qualifying them for an Iaijutsu strike.


While technically I can go Warblade->Master Thrower, It'll take 3 feats to qualify for the PRC, as opposed to 1 feat and some skill points (Balance, which I'll probably want if I'm throwing bags of marbles around ANYWAY). 3 feats isn't nearly as painful when using Fighter as a base class.

Morph Bark
2010-08-09, 08:55 AM
Just to go against the grain and put it a vote for Master Thrower instead of BB:

IMO, if you chose Master Thrower, it's for one of two reasons: ranged touch attacks or throwing two weapons with each attack.

Both of these abilities do not allow strength to damage, so you will have to come up with a different means of dealing damage. Other than what has already been mentioned (Sneak Attack/Iajitsu Focus), you can: use Power Throw, use "Lady's Gambit" feat (found on Crystal Keep's feat index), use the Fighter's ACF in "Drow of the Underdark."

Definitely look into the feat "Ranged Weapon Mastery - Slashing". It's like Weapon Specialization & Far Shot combined.

I test-built a rock thrower a while ago that had 14 lvls of fighter just to prove to myself that a fighter could be useful at high levels. I'll have to post it sometime...

Who says you can't do both Master Thrower and Bloodstorm Blade together? :smallwink:

Flat-footed touch attacks from a distance are yummy. :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2010-08-09, 09:12 AM
The thrown weapon tricks are nice, but only work with the single Weapon Focus I have, which has to be a ranged weapon. I think the best choices are Shortspear and Dagger, but not being able to use most of the best parts of the class except with that weapon really hurts.


I'd second most of the ToB suggestions. However, if ToB is absolutely not in play, I'd suggest the variant Weapon Group (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) mechanic from Unearthed Arcana.


A game master who uses this variant can rule that any feat that requires a character to choose a specific weapon to apply the feat's benefit to (such as Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, or Weapon Specialization) can instead be applied to a weapon group. The character must still meet the prerequisites for the feat.

This wouldn't take care of the entire problem like ToB does, but it would help.