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Paganboy28
2010-08-08, 11:21 AM
Which is the best option for gestalting arcane/divine casters?

The obvious ones I can see are:

Wizard/Archivist

lots of spells but have to prepare them all,
medium armour prof only,
not that good HD or saves,
poor combat stats
only dependant on INT for both sides


I don't like the idea of having to prepare every spell in advance as predicting what is needed is hard.

Sorcerer/Archivist

some spontenaiety on the arcane side so could use that for blasting/controlling but smaller selection compared to wizard
still has lots of divine spells but has to prepare



And so forth...

Other combination I am thinking of....

Sorcerer/Cleric

Sorcerer/Favoured Soul

Wizard/Favoured Soul


I am not sure which to do. I want to have blasty/damage power and also have to be party support as well.

Also, I am considering taking Battle Caster feat to allow me to wear armour and still cast arcane spells without failure. The concept of a sorcerous cleric has appeal... a cleric of Boccob for example.

Touchy
2010-08-08, 11:42 AM
You have to have the ability to cast in a type of armor before you cast in armor to take battle caster, arcane casting ofcourse.
I suggest you take a look at spontaneous divine casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), which is a class neutral variant for all divine casters.

Paganboy28
2010-08-08, 04:24 PM
Would Paladin/Sorcerer be a good gestalt combo?

Eldariel
2010-08-08, 04:29 PM
Wizard/Archivist is Int SAD (well, kinda) which makes it excellent. Sorc/Archivist, not so much. And Sorc/Paladin is quite good...for the first two-three levels. After that, Paladin doesn't really give much Sorc cares about; even the Mount is replicable via spells.

Fouredged Sword
2010-08-08, 05:27 PM
There are also some nice combos with cleric//dread necromancer. Take walker in the waist for the cleric side as soon as you can to be a litch at mid to high levels.

Paladin//duskblade would also be fun.

unimaginable
2010-08-08, 05:30 PM
Sorc//FS would be pretty fun.

Gavinfoxx
2010-08-08, 05:50 PM
Heh, my first experience with 3e D&D was when someone handed me a sorcerer//favoured soul... I had nooo idea what I was doing...

Greenish
2010-08-08, 10:06 PM
Take walker in the waist for the cleric side as soon as you can to be a litch at mid to high levels.Ah yeah, Walker of the Waist turns you into Dry Hips as the capstone.

Tokuhara
2010-08-08, 10:28 PM
Dread Necro 20//Cleric 10/Walker in the Waste 10 is like Super-Lich. You have both of the Lich's touch attacks, and in Epic, you can become a Super Demilich

sambo.
2010-08-08, 10:36 PM
Would Paladin/Sorcerer be a good gestalt combo?

i rekon it would be a great combination myself.

although, personally, i wouldn't be sticking with Paladin past level 2 if i could avoid it.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-09, 03:33 AM
If you don't mind the DM attempting to stab you, try this pointless overkill:

Go With a relatively SAD progression as an Arcane/Divine caster. Decide whether you like arcane or divine more. As soon as you can access it, Go Mystic Theurge: If you prefer arcane, take it on the divine side. If you prefer Divine, Take it on the arcane side. You get progression of your preferred side twice as quickly while not having to sacrifice either. You see, A Wizard 10/Archivist 20/Mystic Theurge 10 casts as a 20th level Wizard and a 30th level Archivist at Level 20(Gestalt). Get ready to dodge plenty of books.

HunterOfJello
2010-08-09, 04:00 AM
If you don't mind the DM attempting to stab you, try this pointless overkill:

Go With a relatively SAD progression as an Arcane/Divine caster. Decide whether you like arcane or divine more. As soon as you can access it, Go Mystic Theurge: If you prefer arcane, take it on the divine side. If you prefer Divine, Take it on the arcane side. You get progression of your preferred side twice as quickly while not having to sacrifice either. You see, A Wizard 10/Archivist 20/Mystic Theurge 10 casts as a 20th level Wizard and a 30th level Archivist at Level 20(Gestalt). Get ready to dodge plenty of books.

This would be great, except for the fact that gestalt rules ban all double casting prestige classes. That would include a ban on Mystic Theurge.

~

Wizard//Archivist is the obvious choice and one of the best since you get access to almost every spell in the entire game. Sorcerer//Favored Soul would work well also if you prefer to be a spontaneous caster instead of preparing spells.

I would consider picking a casting class and a non-casting class for your gestalt combo. With limited action economy, you can only cast one spell per round and there will be a limited number of combat rounds per day. If you picked one half of your gestalt combo to be from a non-casting class then you could significantly improve your versatility through more hit points, melee capabilities, skill points, class skills, and more options in combat than just casting another spell at the bad guys.

For instance, a Wizard//Factotum would have d8 instead of d4. Their skill points would be improved from 2 to 6 + int per level. They would have a good Reflex Save and get a medium BAB progression. They could use Simple and Martial weapons along with shields and light armor (which can be enchanted to not have arcane spell failure). They would also get a long list of scaling class abilities that let the character use their Intelligence modifier to boost their fighting, skill, armor, and healing capabilities. At level 8 you would even be able to take extra standard actions per turn allowing you to cast an extra spell with a standard action casting time on your turn. And finally, at level 11 you'd gain the ability to ignore a target's spell resistance for 1 round by spending one of your Factotum's inspiration points.

Wouldn't you love to be able to spend an Inspiration point while doing a Knowledge check to understand a Elder Dragon's weaknesses, then spend another to disable it's spell resistance for a turn allowing you to cast a single perfect spell that will destroy it all in your first turn?

By taking factotum instead of another spellcasting class, you'd improve your character's capabilities at everything within the game becoming both a powerful jack-of-all-trades and an unstoppable spellcaster.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-09, 04:50 AM
This would be great, except for the fact that gestalt rules ban all double casting prestige classes. That would include a ban on Mystic Theurge.


Missed that, Too Bad. That would have been fun.

HunterOfJello
2010-08-09, 04:57 AM
Missed that, Too Bad. That would have been fun.

Yeah, if the gestalt rules for prestige classes didn't exist you could have a level 8 character who could cast as a lvl 5 wizard, lvl 5 sorcerer, lvl 7 cleric and lvl 7 druid quite easily. Those sort of characters would be far more powerful than a gestalt character is intended to be.

Eldariel
2010-08-09, 06:30 AM
Yeah, if the gestalt rules for prestige classes didn't exist you could have a level 8 character who could cast as a lvl 5 wizard, lvl 5 sorcerer, lvl 7 cleric and lvl 7 druid quite easily. Those sort of characters would be far more powerful than a gestalt character is intended to be.

That's not really a problem. Indeed, that would suck. The issue is that you could have a level 10 Wizard 10/Psion 10 with 8 levels of Factotum. That would be sick. In general, using the other side to "fill in" the opener levels so your dual progression is actually full progression on one side of the build freeing up the other for yet more; that would generate problems.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-09, 07:12 AM
Would Paladin/Sorcerer be a good gestalt combo?
Reasonably, yeah. Your Sorcerer spells interfere with your Paladin heavy armor proficiency, though, so you'll want to do something like:

Monk-2/Paladin-2//Sorcerer-X, picking up Ascetic Mage and possibly Ascetic Knight (both feats from Complete Adventurer). Also, on the 'mixed' side, you'll benefit from going into Pious Templar (Complete Divine) quickly. Nothing quite like Charisma-based Spellcasting, Charisma to saves, Charisma to AC, Evasion, and Mettle...well, unless you can add a level of Contemplative and pick up the Pride domain to reroll all 1's on saves....

Tokuhara
2010-08-09, 07:27 AM
i rekon it would be a great combination myself.

although, personally, i wouldn't be sticking with Paladin past level 2 if i could avoid it.

Paladin is actually decent into 5th/6th level (Mount is awesome in most campaigns) and with Mystic Fire Knight/Sword of the Arcane Order, you would be able to really ruin someone's day.

here's my build:

Mystic Fire Knight 6/Fist of Raziel 10/Contemplative 4//High One Warrior-Wizard (CoV Web Enhancement) 5/Exalted Arcanist 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/Archmage 3

This way, you can swap paladin and wizard spells, you familiar and mount are the same critter, You can smite all day long, and you have nearly full casting (since SotAO and MFK give you wizard and paladin spells)

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 11:51 AM
This would be great, except for the fact that gestalt rules ban all double casting prestige classes. That would include a ban on Mystic Theurge.

Well, not exactly. Here's what it says.

"Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant."

First, you have the words "should be". I read that as a strong reccomendation, not a "this is a rule".

Second, it's kind of silly as written. Eldritch knight and arcane trickster are not really balance breakers in gestalt. Making an effective gish in gestalt is dead easy.

Escheton
2010-08-09, 11:56 AM
Bard//druid?
think about it, it makes sense. In that wait, what? right...huh? wait...wow...cool- kinda way.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 12:05 PM
No. Singing animals must be purified with fire.

gallagher
2010-08-09, 12:10 PM
Wizard/Archivist is Int SAD (well, kinda) which makes it excellent. Sorc/Archivist, not so much. And Sorc/Paladin is quite good...for the first two-three levels. After that, Paladin doesn't really give much Sorc cares about; even the Mount is replicable via spells.

hmm, i am thinking of around level 2 you could do:
Spellthief1/Sorc9/Unseen Seer 10//Paladin of Freedom 5/Scout 3/Ranger 12

get devoted tracker so you can have your mount and animal companion to count as the same thing, get swift hunter for 4d6 of skirmish, take the mounted combat style, and get master spellthief so you can steal spells with your sneak attack on the other side.

have a couple damage spells, but mostly focus on defensive spells so you dont have to put too much of your ability points into Con, buff yourself to high heaven, and go to town with your high CHA beast

mangosta71
2010-08-09, 12:13 PM
Given that you want to be a blaster first and supporter second, sorcerer//favored soul may be your best SAD option. Focus on attack spells on the sorcerer side and buff spells on FS, and they're all spontaneous. No "oh crap, I need to meditate for 8 hours before I can cure my poison!" situations. Another variant would be psion (kineticist)//archivist, if you're willing to sub psionic for the arcane caster.

Kylarra
2010-08-09, 12:14 PM
If you don't mind the DM attempting to stab you, try this pointless overkill:

Go With a relatively SAD progression as an Arcane/Divine caster. Decide whether you like arcane or divine more. As soon as you can access it, Go Mystic Theurge: If you prefer arcane, take it on the divine side. If you prefer Divine, Take it on the arcane side. You get progression of your preferred side twice as quickly while not having to sacrifice either. You see, A Wizard 10/Archivist 20/Mystic Theurge 10 casts as a 20th level Wizard and a 30th level Archivist at Level 20(Gestalt). Get ready to dodge plenty of books.Even allowing for dual casters, common interpretation is that increasing your spellcasting by 1 level is equivalently the same thing as just taking the level in the class, so it wouldn't double stack.

mangosta71
2010-08-09, 12:16 PM
Even allowing for dual casters, common interpretation is that increasing your spellcasting by 1 level is equivalently the same thing as just taking the level in the class, so it wouldn't double stack.

Well, you would gain the level-specific benefits (like the extra feats from wizard, turning attempts from cleric) that you don't get in the dual-progression PrCs, but that's it.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 12:32 PM
Even allowing for dual casters, common interpretation is that increasing your spellcasting by 1 level is equivalently the same thing as just taking the level in the class, so it wouldn't double stack.

Agreed.

The extra ten levels would be more profitably used by grabbing an entirely different class.

subject42
2010-08-09, 01:31 PM
Aren't Shugenja (Complete... Divine, maybe?) entirely Charisma based? If they are, they might be a nice pairing for Sorcerer.

Kylarra
2010-08-09, 02:10 PM
Well, you would gain the level-specific benefits (like the extra feats from wizard, turning attempts from cleric) that you don't get in the dual-progression PrCs, but that's it.Right, I was addressing the specific interpretation of increasing spellcasting at double the rate for a single level.

Jack_Simth
2010-08-09, 05:07 PM
Well, not exactly. Here's what it says.

"Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant."

First, you have the words "should be". I read that as a strong reccomendation, not a "this is a rule".

Second, it's kind of silly as written. Eldritch knight and arcane trickster are not really balance breakers in gestalt. Making an effective gish in gestalt is dead easy.
Ah... I think it's more intended to address the problem of the double PrC's being used to get a third fraction in there with no noticeable costs. Builds like....
Rogue-5/Factotum-10//Wizard-5/Arcane Trickster-10

Tokuhara
2010-08-09, 07:17 PM
Aren't Shugenja (Complete... Divine, maybe?) entirely Charisma based? If they are, they might be a nice pairing for Sorcerer.

hmmm....

Race: Fire Elf (UA)
Shugenja 5/Seeker of the Misty Isles 6/Sovereign Speaker 3/Contemplative 6//Sorcerer 5/Sandshaper 1/Dragon Prophet 10/Blood Magus 4

AdamSmasher
2010-08-09, 09:28 PM
Sorcerer/Spirit shaman.

And take a few levels of Prestige Paladin on the divine side for the crazy CHA to saves.

sambo.
2010-08-09, 09:34 PM
If you don't mind the DM attempting to stab you, try this pointless overkill:

Go With a relatively SAD progression as an Arcane/Divine caster. Decide whether you like arcane or divine more. As soon as you can access it, Go Mystic Theurge: If you prefer arcane, take it on the divine side. If you prefer Divine, Take it on the arcane side. You get progression of your preferred side twice as quickly while not having to sacrifice either. You see, A Wizard 10/Archivist 20/Mystic Theurge 10 casts as a 20th level Wizard and a 30th level Archivist at Level 20(Gestalt). Get ready to dodge plenty of books.

assuming your DM will allow that kind of stinky cheese consider, if you will, the possibilities of a Noctumancer/Cleric beefed up with an inordinate amount of Precocious Apprentice extra chevre.

shadow magic
divine magic
and arcane magic.

9/9/9 spellcasting would be possible.

downside is the MAD, you'll need good scores in Int, Wis and Cha.



Paladin is actually decent into 5th/6th level (Mount is awesome in most campaigns) and with Mystic Fire Knight/Sword of the Arcane Order, you would be able to really ruin someone's day.

here's my build:

Mystic Fire Knight 6/Fist of Raziel 10/Contemplative 4//High One Warrior-Wizard (CoV Web Enhancement) 5/Exalted Arcanist 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/Archmage 3

This way, you can swap paladin and wizard spells, you familiar and mount are the same critter, You can smite all day long, and you have nearly full casting (since SotAO and MFK give you wizard and paladin spells)
i was thinking more along the lines of:

arcane side: Sorcerer5/Abjurant Champ 5/Arcane Duellist 10
pally side: Paladin 2-5 (depending if i want the Mount)/Barbarian X and possibly Fighter X as well for some extra Feats.

another option for the pally side is Pally 2-4/Cleric16-18. but now we're getting some serious MAD happening.

if you stick with Paladin (say the game has a cap of not more than 4 classes in the build) then the spells can actually be half useful and i'd beg my DM to allow Cha as the pallys only casting stat.

personally, i'd play this 'toon more as a BSF type and swing a big arse 2h weapon with a decent crit range (improved critical specifically stacks with the Arcane Duellist class feature that expands crit ranges). most of the funky doober Arcane Duellist abilities are either Su or Ex, so whacking an AMF around yourself when fighting big magic is totally workable.

now, if i could figure out some way of getting Cha bonus to stack with both To Hit and Damage that build could do some INSANE power attack cheese.

AmberVael
2010-08-09, 09:38 PM
Actually, thinking about it from my creation of higher level gestalt characters, I think Sorcerer/Cleric would have some pretty awesome potential.

It isn't especially obvious from the outset that it would necessarily have any advantages over say, Wizard/Archivist. I mean, obviously Sorcerer/Cleric doesn't have SAD, the Sorcerer side is limited in spell selection, and the Cleric, while possessing all spells on their list, don't really have access to some of the best spells except through domains.

But the thing it can boast that Wizard/Archivist can't is ability to complete dominate action economy, which is heavily important in a Gestalt game. Wizard and Archivist have some shenanigans, sure, but it's always been Sorcerer that can really pump out spells non-stop, and Cleric that can pull out the ridiculous persistent buffs.

And that'd be the concept behind the character. You'd focus on Charisma, and make Wisdom more a secondary stat- Cleric isn't the class you'd use for offensives, most of the time, so Wisdom will matter less for it. Keep a decent stat in it, but you don't need it heavy (especially since bonus spells will matter much less with two casting classes at your disposal). Charisma, however, will not only make your sorcerer spells better, but it will give you turn attempts.

Then, toss on things like divine metamagics (persist, extend, quicken), Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, etc and wreak havoc while maintaining day long (or more than day long) buffs. While Wizard/Archivist would allow you countless options, the Sorcerer/Cleric combo would allow you pretty good utilization of all spells that you have available (which is one of the reasons dual caster classes aren't often used).

subject42
2010-08-09, 10:35 PM
hmmm....

Race: Fire Elf (UA)
Shugenja 5/Seeker of the Misty Isles 6/Sovereign Speaker 3/Contemplative 6//Sorcerer 5/Sandshaper 1/Dragon Prophet 10/Blood Magus 4

You sir, are a monster.

Mongoose87
2010-08-09, 10:36 PM
How about a Rainbow Warsnake//Wizard?

Tokuhara
2010-08-09, 11:05 PM
You sir, are a monster.

Lol I'm no monster, just have a sense of understanding

and you actually could make a nasty Smite Wiz/Paly using some nice PrC and Variant/Substitution work:

High One Warrior-Wizard (CoV WE) 5/Holy Scourge 5/Exalted Arcanist 5/Abjurant Champion 5//Mystic Fire Knight 6/Fist of Raziel 10/Church Inquisitor 4

Here, you can smite all day long, have every Paladin and Wizard Spell, Can wear armor, have a nice BAB, and great saves

Paganboy28
2010-08-10, 04:33 AM
Hmm lots to consider.

Action economy is a big thing. All very well having lots of abilities but you can still only use one per round.

I am building this concept in my head of a "Servant of Boccob" charged with going out and recording all the spells that he can. He would have to combine divine and arcane casting.

So things that fit this concept are:

Wizard/Archivist - fits the concept in that things are written in books lots. Still low armour/melee/combat options. SAD which is always useful.

Cleric/Sorcerer - spontaneous arcane casting is useful for combat, whilst I can prepare buffs and stuff from cleric side of things. Plus get turning ability.

Cleric/Wizard - as above but with preparing all spells again. Less benefit in the MAD compared to Cleric/Sorcerer combo.

FS/Wizard or FS/Sorcerer - I guess I could just pick my own specific divine spells (Boccob's blessings) as I would not need all the offensive divine stuff and just focus on healing and buffs. Spontaneous FS would allow me to cast these more often.


Also, I am considering taking the Radiant Servant PrC on the divine side as this is just more uber cleric stuff. Though I would have to figure out how to fluff that it is Boccob and not Pelor....
Though there doesn't seem to be a suitable divine PrC that would represent someone hunting out dusty old magic tomes/items.

What if for the arcane side I went "Mage of the Arcane Order" PrC? Would that add any benefits?

I am also aware that just going Cleric/Sorcerer or such has lots of dead levels that don't add anything other than spells. Hence using PrC's or another base class would be useful. As long as I continue spell casting progression on both sides.

We are starting at Level 10 and we are a Neutral Good party so Dread Necromancers and Liches are out.

But if anyone has a Level 10 build that fulfills the criteria above for the concept then I would welcome suggestions.

TheManlyFlower
2010-08-10, 09:18 AM
You could go with Warmage/Shugenja for CHA based spontaneous casting, however your pretty limited on both sides for your spells..

Paganboy28
2010-08-10, 09:48 AM
You could go with Warmage/Shugenja for CHA based spontaneous casting, however your pretty limited on both sides for your spells..

There are tomes written regarding the warmage and it's sub-par compared to other arcane classes. The Shugenja is not one that I fancy.

I am currently looking at...

Favoured Soul/Wizard

I may ask the GM if I can swap the FS's favoured weapon proficiencies for Turning Undead as a cleric instead. Effectively a cleric that is spontaneous instead of prepared.

From there I plan to go to Radiant Servant/Mage of the Arcane Order

I think that would make a decent divine/arcane caster with good spells casting on each side as well as useful other abiliites.

I am still thinking of the Wizard/Archivist but then that maybe "all eggs in one basket" sort of thing as anything anti-magic and I will be useless.

The FS/Wizard has better combat abilities and other useful abilities. Plus I can then also use Divine Metamagic and use the turning attempts from the FS to boost my magic further.

Mongoose87
2010-08-10, 09:50 AM
You could go with Warmage/Shugenja for CHA based spontaneous casting, however your pretty limited on both sides for your spells..

That's why you make your Warmage into a Rainbow Warsnake, and become the most versatile thing on this plane.

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 10:33 AM
That's why you make your Warmage into a Rainbow Warsnake, and become the most versatile thing on this plane.

Correction: Rainbow Sandshaping Warsnake. You add a 1 level dip into Sandshaper for a trailer-load of spells

Paganboy28
2010-08-10, 10:33 AM
As for race...

How about being an Illumian? Not sure what power words would be best though?

An Illumian would fit, plus I could build that into the radiant servant.

Naenhoon would probably be the best choice for power sigils. This is effectively the Divine Metamagic feat.

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 10:48 AM
As for race...

How about being an Illumian? Not sure what power words would be best though?

An Illumian would fit, plus I could build that into the radiant servant.

Naenhoon would probably be the best choice for power sigils. This is effectively the Divine Metamagic feat.

no.

Since you need both Int and Cha, I suggest Human or Fire Elf

Paganboy28
2010-08-10, 11:52 AM
no.

Since you need both Int and Cha, I suggest Human or Fire Elf


Dislike fire elves and elves in general.

What's better about the human compared to the Illumian?

Mongoose87
2010-08-10, 11:54 AM
Bonus feat and extra skill points?

Paganboy28
2010-08-10, 02:11 PM
Wizard/Cloistered Cleric

or

Wizard/Archivist


Which is best?

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 03:58 PM
Wizard/Cloistered Cleric

or

Wizard/Archivist


Which is best?

depends. Cloistered Cleric has domains (including Knowledge domain)

Archivist has INT synergy

your choice

subject42
2010-08-10, 04:18 PM
Wizard/Cloistered Cleric

or

Wizard/Archivist


Which is best?

If I were personally presented with that choice, I would go with Wizard/Archivist and then try to figure out a way to get turn undead.

Now to be honest, that's almost entirely because it will let you cast shillelagh, greater mighty wallop, divine power, and righteous might on yourself. The last two of those persist, also.

Since clubs can be crafted instantaneously due to their low cost of 0gp, it can make for a hilarious build.

Paganboy28
2010-08-11, 04:54 AM
Ok so character is created.

I am a 10th level Human Dragonborn Wizard 5/Singer of Concordance 5/Archivist 10

Concept is that he was a wizard/archivist working in the service of Boccob in the Great Library but who discovered in a dusty old tome the secrets of becoming a Dragonborn. Worried that he was coming to the end of his natural life, and not wanting to go down the undead route, he saw becoming dragonborn as a suitable alternative so he could continue his research. However this didn't go down so well with his superiors. He was kicked out in disgrace. However, still in the service of Boccob he continues to seek out forgotten texts and wonderous magic items hoping that if he collects enough then he will be let back in.
But since he is now dragonborn he has been hearing voices, distant voices in draconic. Io has spoken to him and he now serves Io as a horder of magical artifacts as well. Like true dragons he hordes magical items rather than gold.

Now I have to work out what spells to take and what magic items would be suitable.

I have 49,000GP to spend on equipment.

Any suggestions for spells/equipment would be welcome.