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Admiral Squish
2010-08-08, 12:48 PM
So, I was looking for a support kinda character and I thought of marshal. Went over, looked it up, and then realized why I never played them. +2 aura bonus over 20 levels? And what's with this weak selection of auras? Aren't they supposed to be 'major'? Honestly, this class strikes me as a 1-level dip for that initiative-boosting minor aura.

So, is there any way to salvage this class? Increased aura progression, more aura options...

vampire2948
2010-08-08, 12:50 PM
Yeah, it is very, very weak. Which is a pity, since it'd be perfect for me, since I often play a support character.

There're a few attempted fixes, I like one which gives it White Raven maneuvers.
I'll try to find it...

/scuttles away to google

Panigg
2010-08-08, 01:17 PM
You can't really play it as a base without anything else. You can however salvage it by PRCing into Mythic Exemplar. They get aura progression.

Bayar
2010-08-08, 01:23 PM
One level dip for the charisma aura and Skill focus Diplomacy for a Diplomancer build...

The Glyphstone
2010-08-08, 01:34 PM
If you go for one, you might as well go for two in most cases - Marshal 2 gets +1 BAB, +1 Fort, and the Major Aura +1....a +1 competence bonus to all saves (Resilient Troops) can be nice.

Jota
2010-08-08, 01:58 PM
A homebrew option (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Marshal_%283.5e_Class%29). I don't know much about the WotC version, so I can't help as much there, but the linked version is solidly tier 3 or 4, in as much as a character designed almost solely to advance the abilities of other characters can be.

Harperfan7
2010-08-08, 03:09 PM
I use the marshall as an npc class.

The closest thing is a crusader using white raven.

Defiant
2010-08-08, 03:11 PM
Yes, I'm in love with the Marshal class, and believe me, playing it is very lackluster. Best not to stay in it too long.

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-08, 03:53 PM
A ride-based marshal build can be interesting. You may want to splash other classes in there, but the ability to grant move actions and give large bonuses through minor auras are certainly nice. Supplementing with Martial Study and Martial Stance go a long way toward improving it without making the full leap into Tome of Battle.

They make great NPCs, if nothing else.

Xefas
2010-08-08, 04:15 PM
I believe their was a fix somewhere on the old WotC boards, in their Martial Compendium.

If I recall, it bumped it up to Good BAB progression, made the auras more sensible, and added some minor Martial Progression, with White Raven and one other Discipline based on your choice of command style. The Martial Progression wasn't based off any of the ToB base classes - it was slower and weaker than any of the others, but it made up for it with its Auras and other abilities.

(Dunno if you can recover stuff from before Gleemax, though...)

Eldariel
2010-08-08, 04:18 PM
I believe their was a fix somewhere on the old WotC boards, in their Martial Compendium.

If I recall, it bumped it up to Good BAB progression, made the auras more sensible, and added some minor Martial Progression, with White Raven and one other Discipline based on your choice of command style. The Martial Progression wasn't based off any of the ToB base classes - it was slower and weaker than any of the others, but it made up for it with its Auras and other abilities.

(Dunno if you can recover stuff from before Gleemax, though...)

This is what you're thinking of - the Sublime Way Marshal (http://web.archive.org/web/20070221040553/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=752414). You can actually do much the same job with Bard 4/Warblade (or Crusader) 16 using Song of the White Raven. That's like Marshal that works. Generally goes best with Perform: Oratory, for many reasons.

true_shinken
2010-08-08, 04:20 PM
This reminds me of a yuan-ti Marshall in Monster Manual 4. With a few brutes along, this guy DECIMATED a party of six mildly optimized characters before they even knew what hit'em.

Keld Denar
2010-08-08, 04:26 PM
I played a Sublime Marshal archer with White Raven and Fax Celestis' Falling Star discipline before. It worked out really well. The DR at low levels really adds up, more than you'd think it would.

Its low-mid T3 for sure.

Fouredged Sword
2010-08-08, 05:24 PM
Be a Dragonborn. Dip for two levels, take some divine bard, then step right into crusader or paladin, depending on your power level and if ToB is open.

Or keep going bard and take warweaver and versitle spellcaster your way into that high casting bard PrC with it's own casting if you want to be a caster.

Ether way take two draconic auras from dragon magic and double draconic aura as soon as you can. One aura isn't much, four auras out at once starts to be really noticed.

Tokuhara
2010-08-08, 06:08 PM
I actually say Marshal 5/Dragon Shaman 5/Dragon Lord 10 for all of the aura goodness. Dragon Lord mixes the Marshal/Dragon Shaman fluff, meaning you are a leader of men wit ties to dragons

JaxGaret
2010-08-08, 07:09 PM
You can't really play it as a base without anything else. You can however salvage it by PRCing into Mythic Exemplar. They get aura progression.

I have a character who is a Crusader/Marshal/MythicExemplar, it came out really well, but the DM and I had to agree to some slightly homebrewed rules/patches for it to work out as well as it did.

Awnetu
2010-08-08, 09:13 PM
So, I was looking for a support kinda character and I thought of marshal. Went over, looked it up, and then realized why I never played them. +2 aura bonus over 20 levels? And what's with this weak selection of auras? Aren't they supposed to be 'major'? Honestly, this class strikes me as a 1-level dip for that initiative-boosting minor aura.

So, is there any way to salvage this class? Increased aura progression, more aura options...

There is a cool trick you can pull with a Marshall, and isn't too terrible for any martial class.

Lets say you have access to 10 feats during the character creation process and 10 feats you WANT to have, but find at level 3 or so that you cant get any of the feats on that list for whatever reason. Take Skill Focus: Diplomacy. Later, when you want to get the feat you wanted, take a 1 level dip in Marshall. According to the text, you can take ANY feat (You probably still must meet the requirements, though nothing is spelled out in that case.)

Also, you would lose only 1 point of BAB, progressing your class features/spell casting by 1 level, (Seems a small price to pay, (Unless your a caster, but hey, why look at the Marshal then?) any progression in Reflex Saves for that level, to gain a +2 to Fort and Will Saves, a minor aura which is still useful, (Looks at Watchful Eyes Aura which gives a bonus to Reflex Saves), a free feat, which as far as I know, once you take it, you may be able to retrain Skill Focus: Diplomacy to something else, and keep both feats.

But hey, Skill Focus: Diplomacy isn't the worst choice of a feat you could make anyways.

*edit* Slightly on topic, Bard/Warchanter with some White Raven Maneuvers via ToB and Song of the White Raven, may do some of what you want, the songs are pretty sick, and you can do some crazy shenanigans to give your party Full BAB(Provided someone else in the party has it), huge bonuses to hit and damage, a mini shocktrooper for a party member(but doesnt require a charge), the ability to sing 2 songs at the same time, songs that can fear your enemies, etc. I was playing it in a campaign with 8 levels of gestalt at level 15, but, you can do some of it anyway in a normal game.

Pechvarry
2010-08-08, 09:27 PM
give your party Full BAB(Provided someone else in the party has it

Unnecessary. It sets everyone's BAB to whoever's BAB is the highest or your HD, whichever's higher. So unless you're with a Fighter 5 levels higher than you, it's cool no matter what. Only problem is if they go more than 60' away, they can't reestablish (I think).

Awnetu
2010-08-08, 09:31 PM
Unnecessary. It sets everyone's BAB to whoever's BAB is the highest or your HD, whichever's higher. So unless you're with a Fighter 5 levels higher than you, it's cool no matter what. Only problem is if they go more than 60' away, they can't reestablish (I think).

Ah, that's right.

ericgrau
2010-08-08, 09:32 PM
The bonuses are actually fairly substantial. Just one of its abilities (there are more) is enough to pump yourself halfway to full BAB while boosting your allies by the same amount. And of course there are the obvious cheesy dips to boost other things, like skills. The thing is the lack of interesting abilities makes it dull dull dull. What did you expect from a miniatures class?

Melayl
2010-08-08, 11:33 PM
For psionic characters, the Society Mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) and Worldthought Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic) can do the same job, I believe. Possibly better.

Thurbane
2010-08-12, 08:46 AM
My cheap and nasty fix?

Give it full BAB, and the major aura progression of the Dragon Shaman (begins at +1 and increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level, and +5 at 20th level).

...won't fix all of it's problems, but certainly makes it a lot more playable...

BRC
2010-08-12, 08:53 AM
I had great success using a Marshal as an occasional DMPC (He only showed up a few times, and my players got to control him). I usually loaded him up with the Flanking aura, which my Rouge-heavy party loved.

It also helped that my players fell in love with the character.

nargbop
2010-08-12, 11:45 AM
A houseruled feat I use doubles the range of the auras, and stacks. No other mechanical advantage, except that your centaur battlerager can charge his full distance and still receive the buff.
I use this for cohorts who do nothing but buff.

valadil
2010-08-12, 12:38 PM
+2 aura bonus over 20 levels?

They never published levels 3-20, those are obviously a misprint in your book. Take it as a one or two level dip. Pretend it's a really short PrC with no prereqs.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-12, 12:53 PM
It's a nice Monk/Fighter-tier support class.

If you want to play the same concept at a higher power level, use a Crusader, Bard or Cleric.

Lans
2010-08-12, 10:05 PM
Its pretty much a Tier-1 Bard. Gives the bonuses but with out the spell casting.

With Draconic aura and double aura it can have 4 auras going at once.

Greenish
2010-08-12, 10:12 PM
Its pretty much a Tier-1 Bard. Gives the bonuses but with out the spell casting.When you say "tier-1", what "tiers" do you refer to? :smallconfused:

(Since in no way can you be talking about JaronK's tier system.)

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-12, 10:23 PM
I think he meant tier minus one, as in one tier lower than bard. Sounds about right to me.

Greenish
2010-08-12, 10:27 PM
I think he meant tier minus one, as in one tier lower than bard. Sounds about right to me.Aside from 3-1=2, marshal isn't tier 4 by any stretch.

[Edit]: Okay, it seems to be pegged at tier 4 by the system, but I don't think it deserves that.

Defiant
2010-08-12, 10:34 PM
Aside from 3-1=2, marshal isn't tier 4 by any stretch.

Yes it is.


Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise.

Marshals are very capable at social skills. They also give some nice bonuses to allies if configured properly. The problem is that they are sorely lacking in other departments - you have to optimize quite a bit to get any sort of respectable combat ability out of a marshal.

Trust me, I've played a lot of Marshals, and Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate is where they shine (which is a big reason why I'm drawn to them - I like roleplaying).

Of course, the problem is where the DM doesn't provide opportunities or allow for such social usage - you can't intimidate the bad guy! Then he'll give all the information you want; he can somehow resist you. Or when you play in a group where other players are more socially charismatic (or at least active), such that when you want to pipe up, you kind of fade into the background, even though your character would be perfect for doing the talking.

PId6
2010-08-12, 10:52 PM
I did a fix attempt (Revised Classes link in sig). My version basically gains very limited maneuvers in White Raven, some better auras, a few minor abilities to fill in dead levels, and minions to command and provide bonuses for so you can be tactical without bossing around the other PCs. I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it now, but it does emphasize leadership over pure combat, which is something I'm happy about (and is a reason why it won't work in every game, but oh well).

Greenish
2010-08-12, 10:54 PM
Yes it is.I noticed. It oughtn't be.
Marshals are very capable at social skills. They also give some nice bonuses to allies if configured properly. The problem is that they are sorely lacking in other departments - you have to optimize quite a bit to get any sort of respectable combat ability out of a marshal.

Trust me, I've played a lot of Marshals, and Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate is where they shine (which is a big reason why I'm drawn to them - I like roleplaying).OA samurai gets Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills, 4 skill points per level and the same good saves as a marshal (on top of full BAB and bonus feats), and I don't see it being tier 4. A few free move actions and auras aren't really enough to push marshals there, either, IMO.

Thurbane
2010-08-12, 11:08 PM
I'd like to see Marshal in an upcoming optimization challenge...almost any class (even Commoner) can be tweaked to within an inch of it's life, with all the material available in 3.X...

Defiant
2010-08-12, 11:43 PM
I noticed. It oughtn't be.OA samurai gets Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills, 4 skill points per level and the same good saves as a marshal (on top of full BAB and bonus feats), and I don't see it being tier 4. A few free move actions and auras aren't really enough to push marshals there, either, IMO.

Does the Samurai max out Charisma? Does the Samurai get an aura that can add Charisma to his Charisma?

A marshal, properly built, dominates the social aspect, more than any other class (barring magical enchantments and compulsions).

Defiant
2010-08-12, 11:51 PM
I'd like to see Marshal in an upcoming optimization challenge...almost any class (even Commoner) can be tweaked to within an inch of it's life, with all the material available in 3.X...

I'll give you the simple version of a level 8 Marshal, key aspects.

Charisma: 22-24 (18 base, +2 level-up, +2-+4 item bonus)
This means a +6 modifier to charisma.

Minor auras (4):
Motivate Charisma
Motivate Dexterity
Master of Tactics (bonus to damage rolls)
Motivate Intelligence or Art of War

You have +12 to all Charisma-based skills (don't forget +3 to diplomacy from skill focus) before taking into account any ranks. You give everyone +6 to their initiatives, and switch to giving them +6 to damage when flanking enemies.

Then you can either go the motivate intelligence route, and take a rank in each knowledge skill (netting you 1+CHA+INT to all knowledge rolls, and I'm addicted to having each knowledge skill in good order) - not to mention helping the rogue out and such. Or go the spiked chain route and focus on disarming and tripping, using your Art of War to help you out.

The marshal can do a few things really well, especially all social interactions. On top of that it gives very good boosts to his teammates (initiative and damage), and can be somewhat useful in other areas (though much less so).

Thurbane
2010-08-13, 12:18 AM
Then you can either go the motivate intelligence route, and take a rank in each knowledge skill (netting you 1+CHA+INT to all knowledge rolls, and I'm addicted to having each knowledge skill in good order) - not to mention helping the rogue out and such. Or go the spiked chain route and focus on disarming and tripping, using your Art of War to help you out.
Hmm, hadn't thought about motivate Intelligence - everyone in the party with Knowledge Devotion will appreciate the boost (yourself included if you have the feat), as well as the party Archivist with his Dark Knowledge. :smallsmile:

Thurbane
2010-08-13, 06:33 PM
A couple more ideas/questions:

Is it worth subbing about a couple of your major auras for Draconic Auras (DM, p.86), and then grabbing the Double Draconic Aura feat at 12th level? Means you could have 1 minor a 2 major auras up simultaneously - although by my reading, most of the draconic auras presented are inferior to the Marshal's major aura. Alternatively, if you are of a dragonblooded race (Silverbrow Human?), you could spend 2 feats getting Draconic auras that scale with your level, and then another feat for Double Draconic aura. Unless I'm mistaken, this would mean you could have 4 auras up at once - 1 minor, 1 major and 2 draconic.

Secondly - Use Magic Device. Everyone's favorite (cheesy) skill. The Marshal is a CHA based class, and with his minor aura, can apply 2x CHA bonus to charisma checks. So even as a cross class skill, UMD may be worth it. If you feel like level dipping, or blowing a feat, you can get it as a class skill.

Defiant
2010-08-13, 11:42 PM
A couple more ideas/questions:

Is it worth subbing about a couple of your major auras for Draconic Auras (DM, p.86), and then grabbing the Double Draconic Aura feat at 12th level? Means you could have 1 minor a 2 major auras up simultaneously - although by my reading, most of the draconic auras presented are inferior to the Marshal's major aura. Alternatively, if you are of a dragonblooded race (Silverbrow Human?), you could spend 2 feats getting Draconic auras that scale with your level, and then another feat for Double Draconic aura. Unless I'm mistaken, this would mean you could have 4 auras up at once - 1 minor, 1 major and 2 draconic.

Indeed, they do seem to be inferior, but they're wonderful in the fact that you can stack them up with your existing auras. That can be rather useful, if you find yourself a draconic aura or two that you know you want.


Secondly - Use Magic Device. Everyone's favorite (cheesy) skill. The Marshal is a CHA based class, and with his minor aura, can apply 2x CHA bonus to charisma checks. So even as a cross class skill, UMD may be worth it. If you feel like level dipping, or blowing a feat, you can get it as a class skill.

With the Marshal, I pretty much put (at least) 1 rank in each Charisma-based skill anyways, even if cross-class. Yes, you are correct that spending two skill points into UMD is a very worthy investment. Spend 2 skill-points and you have a +13 in UMD (per the example). If you really want to pump it higher (generally you shouldn't - this is sufficient for most of what you need), you can spend a feat on something like Able-Learner to make spending the skill points less expensive - but you don't need full ranks in it, so it's not necessary to have it as a class skill.

Segial
2010-08-14, 10:34 PM
I don't think marshal is a weak class, but it strongly depends on how you use it. If he is part of a dungeon-crawling adventurer group of 4 or 5 people, of course he is sub-par. The strength of a marshal is tied to the number of allies he can affect, and it makes quite a difference if these are 4, 40 or 140. I'm currently running a highly political campaign where one of the characters is playing the leader of a local mercenary company, and he is loving it. The skill-choices and the high charisma make him very competitive in social situation, and the classes strong martial backing and auras truly shine in large scale battles. Of course, it takes some good GMing to run battles with that many participants without spending the first round of combat taking hours or it boring the other players to death, but it can be pulled off and be very rewarding for the whole gaming group.

Human Paragon 3
2010-08-14, 11:40 PM
Jack of All Trades may be a feat worth considering for Marshal. Auras will let you be competent in every single skill.

Greenish
2010-08-15, 12:46 AM
Does the Samurai max out Charisma? Does the Samurai get an aura that can add Charisma to his Charisma?Does the marshal get full BAB? Does the marshal get bonus feats? Does the marshal start with free masterwork weapons? :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I'm not saying samurai are better, I'm saying that neither are very good.

A marshal, properly built, dominates the social aspect, more than any other class (barring magical enchantments and compulsions).Ah yes, a marshal "dominates the social aspect", after you leave out some of the best faces such as bards, beguilers and telepaths. :smallamused:

Lans
2010-08-15, 11:30 AM
Does the marshal get full BAB? Does the marshal get bonus feats? Does the marshal start with free masterwork weapons? :smallbiggrin:

Those don't help the samurai in the leadership/face role. The marshal tier 4 because it can do one thing well. The fact that it may not be able to fight as well as another class isn't relevant. Just like how it can't heal as good as another class isn't.

Leading, its pretty much a bard with out spells.

The higher BAB of the Samurai can be countered with one of its auras which also takes the monk from .25/.25/.25/.05/.05 to .5/.5/.5/.25/.05

Defiant
2010-08-15, 11:56 AM
I don't think marshal is a weak class, but it strongly depends on how you use it. If he is part of a dungeon-crawling adventurer group of 4 or 5 people, of course he is sub-par. The strength of a marshal is tied to the number of allies he can affect, and it makes quite a difference if these are 4, 40 or 140. I'm currently running a highly political campaign where one of the characters is playing the leader of a local mercenary company, and he is loving it. The skill-choices and the high charisma make him very competitive in social situation, and the classes strong martial backing and auras truly shine in large scale battles. Of course, it takes some good GMing to run battles with that many participants without spending the first round of combat taking hours or it boring the other players to death, but it can be pulled off and be very rewarding for the whole gaming group.

Indeed, this seems to make a lot of sense. My last marshal was in a group of about 10 people, so I was doing about 40 damage per turn - not through my own attacks, mind you!


Jack of All Trades may be a feat worth considering for Marshal. Auras will let you be competent in every single skill.

Well, it's not worth it to get every skill-boosting aura. Wisdom is not that good, since it's only useful on the passive (for spot/listen checks), and you'll want Dex for passive. Con is not that useful either, since not a lot of skills are based on Con. And Strength has too many skills that aren't that good.


Does the marshal get full BAB? Does the marshal get bonus feats? Does the marshal start with free masterwork weapons? :smallbiggrin:

This:


Those don't help the samurai in the leadership/face role. The marshal tier 4 because it can do one thing well. The fact that it may not be able to fight as well as another class isn't relevant. Just like how it can't heal as good as another class isn't.

Indeed. I never stated combat ability as one of the Marshal's strengths. In fact, it is a weakness of sorts, since you feel like a class like the Marshal should be fairly capable in combat, but then you're sorely disappointed if you don't end up optimizing it very well.


Yeah, I'm not saying samurai are better, I'm saying that neither are very good.Ah yes, a marshal "dominates the social aspect", after you leave out some of the best faces such as bards, beguilers and telepaths. :smallamused:

The marshal is better than the bard or anyone else, when it comes to the social aspect, excluding magic interference (like I stated earlier). Obviously a charm person will make all charisma entirely irrelevant, and a wizard could then "dominate the social aspect".

But that won't always work, and especially in a big social situations, your opponents will likely be defended well against such enchantments - such that either you couldn't make it work, or if you could, there's too good a chance that it'll fail and you'll get in trouble.

So in the end, you'll need someone with purely natural charisma skills. And the Marshal focuses solely on his charisma, and receives its bonus doubly to charisma skills.

A properly configured Marshal will take advantage of his strengths, so that he will be at least tier 4 (doing one thing really well). So he [I]will maximize all the charisma skills, maximize his charisma, and choose the charisma aura.

Of course, the nice thing about the Marshal is that it's capable of doing other things as well. The boost given to teammates is *very* effective. Initiative bonuses and damage bonuses, among other things, are nothing to sneeze at. Plus, if you optimize it well, you can prove your worth in combat as well - by tripping or disarming (disarming is easier I find, but more situational).

I like to think that when I make a Marshal, since I know the class so well and can optimize fairly decently, that I can take it up a tier... But even then, I get bored with it. I got just as many exciting things to do and to look forward to using when I took 1 level of crusader, as much as the entire Marshal class (almost).

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-15, 12:06 PM
Ah yes, a marshal "dominates the social aspect", after you leave out some of the best faces such as bards, beguilers and telepaths. :smallamused:
I don't have a horse in this race, but I'm not sure how this is any different than the DC fighter being worse than the psychic warrior, totemist or druid at 'beating things up.'

DementedFellow
2010-08-15, 12:39 PM
I thought the tier system was in place to show the classes OUTSIDE of optimization.

Defiant
2010-08-15, 01:10 PM
I thought the tier system was in place to show the classes OUTSIDE of optimization.

No, it's to show equal optimization. Although no optimization is a good baseline. It doesn't take "optimization" to have the Marshal be good at social skills. At worst, he maxes out his Charisma skills and his Charisma. At best, he does the same, but also realizes he can take the Charisma aura to further augment that.

It would hardly be fair to evaluate a Marshal's power level based on a build that does nothing with his Charisma skills!

Segial
2010-08-15, 01:16 PM
The Marshal is far superior then a "bard without spells" when it comes to combat. The Marshal can put up his auras as a swift action that require no further concentration or actions to substain, they have an unlimited duration and their bonus is unnamed, so it stacks with everything. And two good saves, heavy armor and shield profiency and decent hitpoints make him much sturdier then a bard.

PId6
2010-08-15, 01:29 PM
The Marshal is far superior then a "bard without spells" when it comes to combat. The Marshal can put up his auras as a swift action that require no further concentration or actions to substain, they have an unlimited duration and their bonus is unnamed, so it stacks with everything. And two good saves, heavy armor and shield profiency and decent hitpoints make him much sturdier then a bard.
Can marshal grant all allies +14d6 sonic damage to attacks?

Defiant
2010-08-15, 01:38 PM
Can marshal grant all allies +14d6 sonic damage to attacks?

If we bring splat books into this, the marshal doesn't have a hope. It hasn't been expanded on anywhere else.

EDIT: Ok, not nowhere at all... but barely.

FMArthur
2010-08-15, 01:52 PM
Marshal has a great ability in his Minor Aura. But you get that at level 1... and the more levels you waste in Marshal, the less you can do with your bonuses - the boosts you get from Motivate Charisma, for example, are really awesome to use with another class.

Defiant
2010-08-15, 02:03 PM
Marshal has a great ability in his Minor Aura. But you get that at level 1... and the more levels you waste in Marshal, the less you can do with your bonuses - the boosts you get from Motivate Charisma, for example, are really awesome to use with another class.

You do gain more things with levels - different minor auras. I capped my last Marshal at 9 because I got the 5 auras I wanted (actually, took it to 10 but then realized there was nothing more I needed, and the DM let me switch it out).

The boosts you get to Motivate Charisma (bonus to Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks, not actual bonus to Charisma) are mostly for the Marshal or any best social class (which is the Marshal most of the times). Usually people dip Marshal to take a different aura, like Motivate Dexterity for the initiative boost.

If you keep taking Marshal levels, then your options will increase. You can invest in a passive aura, an active aura, and a situational aura. For example, Motivate Dex is good to have on passively, as you're strolling through the dungeon, since it boosts initiative. Then when you actually engage in combat, you can switch it out for a more active aura, such as Master of Tactics (bonus to damage when flanking). On top of that, you can take the Motivate Int aura and switch to it when you're asked for a knowledge roll, or when the rogue is disabling device, etc.

Greenish
2010-08-15, 02:03 PM
The marshal is better than the bard or anyone else, when it comes to the social aspect, excluding magic interference (like I stated earlier).Given that most all other face classes also use magic (or equivalents), I don't see why "magical interference" should be discounted. Glibness, Conceal Thoughts, Silvertongue Mask, they're all tools of the trade.

I might also point out that marshal's selling point is by and large contained in a single level dip.

Though I'll retract my statement about marshal's tier: it can fill a role decently. Still, it feels really empty as a 20-level class.


I thought the tier system was in place to show the classes OUTSIDE of optimization.There is no such thing as "no optimization" in any meaningful sense. When you pick high strength to your fighter, or high intelligence to your wizard, you're optimizing. When you take Power Attack with the former but not with the latter you're optimizing.

Defiant
2010-08-15, 02:08 PM
Given that most all other face classes also use magic (or equivalents), I don't see why "magical interference" should be discounted. Glibness, Conceal Thoughts, Silvertongue Mask, they're all tools of the trade.

Well, I already pointed out when magic might not be "available".


I might also point out that marshal's selling point is by and large contained in a single level dip.

The tier system does not apply to dips. We're mainly talking about taking a class pretty much through - in fact doing the opposite, making a few dips in other classes maybe.


Though I'll retract my statement about marshal's tier: it can fill a role decently. Still, it feels really empty as a 20-level class.

That's because it is. :smallfrown:

Greenish
2010-08-15, 02:14 PM
Well, I already pointed out when magic might not be "available".You're addressing different approach than what I'm talking about. Of the examples I mentioned, none allows save nor SR, nor any other abilities that wouldn't work against normal bluff/diplomacy attempts. So, yeah, if you have to diplomatice someone in an AMF, marshal has an edge (unless the auras are Su, which I doubt).

Defiant
2010-08-15, 02:37 PM
You're addressing different approach than what I'm talking about. Of the examples I mentioned, none allows save nor SR, nor any other abilities that wouldn't work against normal bluff/diplomacy attempts. So, yeah, if you have to diplomatice someone in an AMF, marshal has an edge (unless the auras are Su, which I doubt).

I'm imagining a high noble court, actually. If you start waving your arms around and all of a sudden the king is more than happy to hand over his entire kingdom to you, you'll generally get noticed.

Granted, these tactics will work superbly when used against a passing gnome in the middle of the road. But they won't always work in important social situations.

FMArthur
2010-08-15, 02:42 PM
Anyway, let's say that you are in prison and being forced to play a Marshal for 20 levels by a jerk DM who happens to be the only DM you will ever see in the next 15 years.

What feats can you take to make this interesting to play?

Greenish
2010-08-15, 02:43 PM
I'm imagining a high noble court, actually. If you start waving your arms around and all of a sudden the king is more than happy to hand over his entire kingdom to you, you'll generally get noticed.You can hide spellcasting with a sleight of hand check, for glibness. The other two don't require arm-waving in the first place.

Also, the king wishing to hand his whole kingdom to a marshal would get noticed too (even though the diplomacy rules make that easily possible).


Again note that I'm not talking about charming nor dominating anyone with magic, like you keep assuming.

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-15, 03:05 PM
Anyway, let's say that you are in prison and being forced to play a Marshal for 20 levels by a jerk DM who happens to be the only DM you will ever see in the next 15 years.

What feats can you take to make this interesting to play?
1. Animal Cohort
3. Psicrystal Affinity
6. Leadership
9. Undead Leadership
12. Dragon Cohort
15. Improved Cohort
18. Extra Followers
:smalltongue:

Segial
2010-08-15, 03:08 PM
Anyway, let's say that you are in prison and being forced to play a Marshal for 20 levels by a jerk DM who happens to be the only DM you will ever see in the next 15 years.

What feats can you take to make this interesting to play?

"Leadership", of course and anything along that feat-chain.

"Goad" is a nice charisma based feat to keep your enemies off your less-well armored allies.

"Improved Initiative". If you act before your allies, you can use your "grant movement" action to move them into position so they can make full attack actions on their turn.

FMArthur
2010-08-15, 04:05 PM
What about things that use Intimidate or other feats that depend on your excellent Charisma-based skill checks? Surely a Marshal is going to be a passable intimidator...

Are there any feats that improve/add auras or any good maneuvers/stances that aid your allies? What's a Marshal doing with his actions in combat while he stands near his allies shouting his encouragement?

TooManyBadgers
2010-08-15, 04:25 PM
White Raven stances/maneuvers might be worth feats. I don't like them without a recovery mechanic, but White Raven Tactics 1/encounter is probably worth two feats alone.

The Imperious Command (DotU) feat, Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS) and Fearsome Armor enhancement (DotU) can make for a decent in-combat demoralizer. The Dreadful Wrath regional feat (PGtF) can get a Marshal started with this sort of thing from low levels.

The Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement from DMG2 is crazy cheap and powerful for a high-Charisma melee character.

Intimidating Strike (PHB2) is useful at low levels, but less so once using it sacrifices itineratives.

Master of Poisons can give most classes fun combat options, regardless of class features. Doesn't have much to do with the Marshal itself, but I've used it to make Experts useful.

Combat Panache (PHB2) opens some useful Charisma-based defensive options [subtracting your Cha bonus from an opponent's attacks, redirecting melee attacks, something else].

Goad (CAdv) can make enemies target you instead of your allies. Requires everyone involved to be adjacent to one another, which only seems to happen at very low levels.

Knowledge Devotion+Motivate Intelligence might make for a decent damage source, but probably isn't worthwhile without other party members using KnowDev.

The Iajitsu Focus skill is Charisma-based and might be able to generate a bit of damage in certain combinations (with Underfoot Combat, Sapphire Nightmare Blade or something else that reliably applies the 'Flat-footed' condition).

Bind Vestige can allow standard action Diplomacizing, making it useful in situations where it otherwise wouldn't be (ie. combat). I've had one experience with the Binder and it was not a good one; I don't know much about the class or its specific vestiges.

...That's all that comes to mind ATM.

Segial
2010-08-15, 05:06 PM
Make him an Orc, the charisma penalty hurts but it is worth it. Get "Leadership", "Extra Followers", "Might Makes Right" and "Blood of the Warlord". And if you can get the rest of the group to play orcs as well you can start your own crusade to get rid of all those pesky human, elves and dwarves right away.

FMArthur
2010-08-15, 05:11 PM
Thank you TooManyBadgers, that was exactly the sort of thing I was interested to know. :smallsmile:

So if you are trapped in the class there are things you can do with it that actually work decently with its features. Things like Leadership cheese can be done with a completely blank, featureless class. Of course, you won't be competing with any other optimized characters too well but you'll at least be fending off boredom.

Thurbane
2010-08-19, 06:20 PM
What are people's thoughts/experiences with the Adrenaline Boost alt class feature for the Marshal in PHB II? Is it better or worse than Grant Movement?

PId6
2010-08-19, 06:54 PM
What are people's thoughts/experiences with the Adrenaline Boost alt class feature for the Marshal in PHB II? Is it better or worse than Grant Movement?
Depends on the group. If you have mostly melee allies who rely on full attacks, Grant Move Action is probably better. If the group is more caster-oriented or filled with characters who don't need full attacks (like ToB characters), the extra move actions probably won't help that much, while Adrenaline Boost actually does something.