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View Full Version : Best idea ever that a DM has shot down.



Vitruviansquid
2010-08-08, 02:42 PM
In this thread, share the best ideas you've ever had or heard that the DM shot down immediately.

Mine is:

The party is trying to gain entrance into a lone cabin in the forest. The door is barred from the inside, so the rogue can't pick the lock, and there are no windows on any side. We can't burn our way in, for fear of harming the defenseless, kidnapped children inside we're supposed to rescue.

Solution: Have the dwarven paladin strip butt naked, grease him up, and slip him down the chimney.

Shot down on the grounds that: it would traumatize the children inside for life.

FelixG
2010-08-08, 02:55 PM
Situation: We know there is this BBEG lieutenant staying in this Inn, nothing special about it particularly and we have to get in and kill him to stop an invasion fleet from leaving the harbor the following morning.

Solution: His window is open on the third floor, we plan to use crossbow bolts with a rope ladder attached between them to get the rogue up the wall and into the bedroom.

Outcome: The bolts bounce harmlessly off the wall that, beneath the masonry, appears to be made completely of adamantium ~.~

Reasoning: Because bypassing all of his guards in the first two floors of the Inn with tactics and planning was "cheesy"

Escheton
2010-08-08, 03:05 PM
This thread's titel makes me want to buy a nerfgun to replace the dmg-doken with.

And my plans are usually allowed, mostly because the dm knows that I didn't expect that and so never plan beyond the pitch. And as such they sorta just crumble under the weight of having to actually flesh out the plan.

Eldan
2010-08-08, 03:11 PM
Outcome: The bolts bounce harmlessly off the wall that, beneath the masonry, appears to be made completely of adamantium ~.~

Reasoning: Because bypassing all of his guards in the first two floors of the Inn with tactics and planning was "cheesy"

Solution: take over the inn and sell it's walls for millions to the next dwarven smith coming by.

Vitruviansquid
2010-08-08, 03:12 PM
Situation: We know there is this BBEG lieutenant staying in this Inn, nothing special about it particularly and we have to get in and kill him to stop an invasion fleet from leaving the harbor the following morning.

Solution: His window is open on the third floor, we plan to use crossbow bolts with a rope ladder attached between them to get the rogue up the wall and into the bedroom.

Outcome: The bolts bounce harmlessly off the wall that, beneath the masonry, appears to be made completely of adamantium ~.~

Reasoning: Because bypassing all of his guards in the first two floors of the Inn with tactics and planning was "cheesy"

Wouldn't a crossbow bolt actually also bounce off of normal masonry? <_<

genericname
2010-08-08, 03:18 PM
BBEG was a spellcaster. So my caster blew up his component bag... POOF! no spells. DM said no because we would have then proceeded to pound him into a slightly gooey paste with no trouble.

Manga Maniac
2010-08-08, 03:19 PM
Situation:
DM: Rocks fall, everybody dies.

Solution:
Me: I attempt to dodge the rocks. *rolls a natural 20*

Shot down because:
DM: You can't avoid the rocks...

Spider_Jerusalem
2010-08-08, 03:24 PM
Oh well, I can see my players ranting here.

I'm really lucky, by the way. I started playing a kender bard with a maxed bluff check, and he wishes to become the most legendary adventurer he can imagine. I don't really need to accomplish any weird plan to get the credit for it in-game.

kaptainkrutch
2010-08-08, 03:34 PM
Situation: Pirates are going to raid the ship.

Solution: Sneak onto the pirate ship and blow up their gunpowder stash.

Outcome: A colossal dragon skeleton swoops down from the sky and destroys the pirate ship. It flies off, never to be seen again.

Reasoning: Who knows?

Heliomance
2010-08-08, 03:42 PM
Doesn't quite follow the pattern, but I once asked my DM if I could take a level of Commoner as there was this flaw I wanted. His immediate response? "No, you may not have infinite chickens."

I made sad face.

Kaww
2010-08-08, 03:44 PM
We were lvl 1 party fighting an ogre. I had no weapon since I just woke up.

DM:"What do you do?"

Me:"What do I do naked, with an ogre standing there in front of me? I grab his testicles."

DM: "?" Flips few pages, thinks, few more pages. I cant find in here, but I'm sure it is banned.

That was the beginning of a series of called shots against the sad, later mutilated and dead ogre and his testicles. Yes, the whole party was trying to hit him in the groin.

Kaww
2010-08-08, 03:50 PM
Situation: We know there is this BBEG lieutenant staying in this Inn, nothing special about it particularly and we have to get in and kill him to stop an invasion fleet from leaving the harbor the following morning.

Solution: His window is open on the third floor, we plan to use crossbow bolts with a rope ladder attached between them to get the rogue up the wall and into the bedroom.

Outcome: The bolts bounce harmlessly off the wall that, beneath the masonry, appears to be made completely of adamantium ~.~

Reasoning: Because bypassing all of his guards in the first two floors of the Inn with tactics and planning was "cheesy"

Sorry for double post.

This is pure gold. If you did this to me I'd give you double xp for the whole building. You gained a lot of experience by pulling this of if you pull it of and nobody hears you.

Defiant
2010-08-08, 03:53 PM
Situation: I was holding on to a dragon's wing (going up and down) that was flying away, because I was trying to get at the unconscious damsel in distress being held by a bad guy riding the dragon.

Solution: Let go of the wing just at the moment it goes upwards so that my momentum takes me to the "middle" of the dragon, where the bad guy is so that I can save the damsel.

Outcome: Just at that moment, the dragon decides to "move forward" slightly (i.e. accelerate) such that I'm not longer anywhere near it and can't even grab a tail or anything.

Reasoning: It was clearly a scripted encounter. Everything that we tried to get at this damsel ultimately failed for some reason or other. Including an overrun attempt from me being impossible because "he's holding a katana right in front of you". Even when I went *through* the katana anyways (taking lots of extra "internal" damage), I still was just short of reaching the damsel.

Marnath
2010-08-08, 03:59 PM
Wouldn't a crossbow bolt actually also bounce off of normal masonry? <_<

Yes, yes it would...

FelixG
2010-08-08, 04:05 PM
Wouldn't a crossbow bolt actually also bounce off of normal masonry? <_<

Normal stone has a hardness of 8, heavy crossbow does 1d10 + whatever magical enhancement, so it will merely bounce off most of the time. :P

Reynard
2010-08-08, 04:05 PM
Window frames are made of wood, even in stone houses.

Xefas
2010-08-08, 04:09 PM
Situation: Our merry band of Solars, one crafting focused, one social skills focused, and one medically focused, all with a tiny tiny bit of combat charms, are in over our heads with a Dusk Caste Abyssal, armed to the teeth and decked out with every goddamn Abyssal melee charm in the book, it would seem. Diplomacy has failed. Oh, also he has a pair of zombie ninjas to help him (I love Exalted). Our crafter is down to like 2 health levels, and I have a nonfunctional leg and maybe 3 health levels left.

Solution: I attempt to stunt using my Solarness to reach out and grab the fabric of Creation, as it is distended in the Wyld, and spin it around real fast to make everyone in the whole world (including this Abyssal) dizzy, so we can get an unexpected attack off against him.

Outcome: :smallconfused: No.

Reasoning: :smallannoyed: No.

Marnath
2010-08-08, 04:11 PM
Window frames are made of wood, even in stone houses.

He obviously missed the window frame then, eh? :smallsmile:

Snake-Aes
2010-08-08, 04:13 PM
Window frames are made of wood, even in stone houses.

They are also not designed to hold a person's weight, tho a halfling or gnome could pull it off.

Not that it wouldn't be easier to use a grappling hook... They're weighed anyway, and could be hurled above the whole place and climbed just the same.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 05:25 PM
I had this happen in reverse, The 'best idea ever' that I wanted the players to try but they refused to do for sane and logical reasons.


Situation: There are kobolds with crossbows taking cover at the far end of a long hallway that they have strewn with barrels to prevent charges. They have just triggered a simple trap that has created a cloud of flour to blind everyone standing in the doorway.

Solution: Barbarian charges down the hallway and expends his greataxe attack on a barrel, smashing it to get it out of his way. I roll randomly. Full of lamp oil. He makes his balance check and prepares to continue his attack next turn, shouldering through the crossbow bolts. I turn to the wizard. "The front of the hall is now in a cloud of semi-explosive suspended flour. The back of the hall is now a pool of lamp oil. You wanted to cast burning hands, right?"

Outcome: He decided not to cast burning hands.

Reasoning:Unleashing a massive, apocalyptic firestorm to wipe out the kobolds was well and good, but he might hurt the barbarian.

I still remember it as the greatest explosion that never was.

BumblingDM
2010-08-08, 05:40 PM
Oh Crasical, I think you just made Micheal Bay cry.

TechnoScrabble
2010-08-08, 06:11 PM
I wanted to run a mission where the players fought 12 badgers, 2 myconids, and a snake, but the players wouldn't let me.

Jalor
2010-08-08, 06:24 PM
Today's session wasn't my best, but it's right up there.

Situation: We are pirates, and the party leader sold my wizard into slavery to buy ballistae for the ship. I was not pleased, and escaped immediately. I Alter Self'd into a Lizardfolk and ripped the party leaders throat out while he slept. I turned invisible to escape, but unfortunately a cabin boy blocked the only way out and I had to hide under the bed. He found the body before I could slip away, and the cleric found me with a Detect Magic. I pretended to surrender, then pulled out a paper enchanted with twelve iterations of Explosive Runes and threatened to sink the ship if they tried to kill me without letting me explain myself. The cleric used Command to make me drop the paper, and I rolled a natural 1 on the save. The ranger picked up the paper, and I convinced him that destroying it would cause it to go off; right now it was still my biggest bargaining chip. The rest of the party doesn't really care that I had a good reason to seek revenge, and remember that they'd really wanted to keel-haul someone.

Solution: The weather was bad enough that the ranger had to help the helmsman steer the ship. The ranger still had my bomb tucked into his tunic. I use Abrupt Jaunt to get away from the rogue with a dagger at my throat, then Dispel Magic the bomb and intentionally fail the caster level check. The ensuing blast would kill both ranger and helmsman with no save, and destroy the wheel, leaving the party helpless in a storm. With my move action, I leap off the side of the boat and swim away thanks to Heart of Water.

Outcome: The DM vetoed my plan. Instead, I was directed to use my other Alter Self to turn into something with better strength and a faster swim speed, and flee. I did that, escaping to become an NPC and likely a miniboss later on.

Reason: The DM had already rolled for the storm to intensify and produce a waterspout. My plan would result in a near-TPK, killing everyone but me and ending the adventure since my character isn't directly involved in the plot.

Tokuhara
2010-08-08, 06:32 PM
Situation: Our final fight againstthe BBEG: a mummy lord with class levels. For some reason, none of us can roll higher than a 6 with melee or ranged. So I, an Anubite (homebrew Jackal People) Wizard/Exalted Arcaist, decide to end this party with a bang.

Solution: Our party Catfolk Monk, (who's speed was insane!!!) with all of his wisdom, decided to run around the mummy, pouring lamp oil around the jerk, then casting Burning Hands on the oil

Reaction: The oil was "too old" an didn't burn

Reasoning: Since the Mummy Lord was flammable, he didn't want to ruin the final fight

Kaun
2010-08-08, 06:36 PM
BBEG was a spellcaster. So my caster blew up his component bag... POOF! no spells. DM said no because we would have then proceeded to pound him into a slightly gooey paste with no trouble.

Your a caster and you really want to draw attention to the whole "called shot on spell components" thing?

Yukitsu
2010-08-08, 06:39 PM
Your a caster and you really want to draw attention to the whole "called shot on spell components" thing?

Shows him right for not carrying 5.

Kaun
2010-08-08, 06:48 PM
Shows him right for not carrying 5.

yeah i would let it swing as a DM but the next mini boss they fought would include a magic missle mage who would be making called shots on spell component pouch the pc's reached for.

The Pressman
2010-08-08, 06:49 PM
I had this happen in reverse, The 'best idea ever' that I wanted the players to try but they refused to do for sane and logical reasons.


Situation: There are kobolds with crossbows taking cover at the far end of a long hallway that they have strewn with barrels to prevent charges. They have just triggered a simple trap that has created a cloud of flour to blind everyone standing in the doorway.

Solution: Barbarian charges down the hallway and expends his greataxe attack on a barrel, smashing it to get it out of his way. I roll randomly. Full of lamp oil. He makes his balance check and prepares to continue his attack next turn, shouldering through the crossbow bolts. I turn to the wizard. "The front of the hall is now in a cloud of semi-explosive suspended flour. The back of the hall is now a pool of lamp oil. You wanted to cast burning hands, right?"

Outcome: He decided not to cast burning hands.

Reasoning:Unleashing a massive, apocalyptic firestorm to wipe out the kobolds was well and good, but he might hurt the barbarian.

I still remember it as the greatest explosion that never was.

I actually did that once. It was in a module and the kobolds pulled a string to release flour to hide our view. I cast produce flame, and threw the fire in. It knocked me and the others in the line of fire to 4 HP, but it did kill 5 kobolds, 8 rats, and pissed off a dire weasel. Along with destroying the treasure.

Yukitsu
2010-08-08, 06:52 PM
yeah i would let it swing as a DM but the next mini boss they fought would include a magic missle mage who would be making called shots on spell component pouch the pc's reached for.

Target's gotta be a creature. Chain shatter is the lowest I can think of to mass get them all, except the hidden ones.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-08, 07:16 PM
yeah i would let it swing as a DM but the next mini boss they fought would include a magic missle mage who would be making called shots on spell component pouch the pc's reached for.

People like to conveniently ignore their weaknesses. Much of a wizard is disabled by snatching/sundering that pouch.

Siosilvar
2010-08-08, 07:19 PM
Magic Missile can specifically not target objects or parts of creatures.

I've had to shoot down a couple of good ideas because of this...

drengnikrafe
2010-08-08, 07:22 PM
People like to conveniently ignore their weaknesses. Much of a wizard is disabled by snatching/sundering that pouch.

Unless you take Eschew Materials. Whenever I start to fear SCP attacks, I whip out that feat.

Situation: I really hate the party brute, and we're all alone on a deserted island.

Solution: Knock out said brute with Color Spray and tell the other guy to finish him off.

Reaction: A high level pirate-fighter bursts out of the trees to protect the unconscious brute.

Reasoning: "When I said you could be evil, I didn't mean that evil".

genericname
2010-08-08, 07:25 PM
People like to conveniently ignore their weaknesses. Much of a wizard is disabled by snatching/sundering that pouch.

I have 3 component pouches. If he blasted one, I'd be fine, and I'd have time to protect myself after the first one.

In hindsight, it would probably have set a bad precedent.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-08, 07:28 PM
I have 3 component pouches. If he blasted one, I'd be fine, and I'd have time to protect myself after the first one.

In hindsight, it would probably have set a bad precedent.

No, not really. Nothing wrong with those int 16+ people actually being smart to cover their weaknesses ;) Just like there's nothing wrong with exploiting them.

Kaun
2010-08-08, 07:58 PM
The magic missile idea was a quick of the cuff response i admit but you get the general point.

I was more stateing that if you are playing a caster you probably dont want to have the game descend into a "protect the components" paranioa situation every time a fight starts.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-08, 08:06 PM
Situation: BBEG gish-warrior (actually, it was the final boss of Shackled City). Metal weapon, metal wing attacks, lots of metal.

Solution: Cast rod-chained Ironguard on the entire party.

DM's Response: "Umm.....his weapons are a special kind of metal that doesn't count as metal.":smallfurious::smallfrown::smallmad: After I had specifically explained to him, the day before, that I knew Ironguard and what it could do (regarding the Barbarian being able to carry his sword - wooden/cloth-wrapped hilt).

Jera
2010-08-08, 08:21 PM
Situation: Party is in a boat being shot at by a group of kobolds up on a cliff almost directly above us.

Solution: The sorcerer with no spells left and a fairly high Dex score decided to see if he could take my grappling hook and snag one of the kobolds and pull them down into the river.

Reaction: Doesn't work.

Reasoning: Even though the DM said snagging someone with a grappling hook would count as a ranged touch attack. The sorcerer with a Str of 8 would not be able throw the grappling hook the 20' to the kobolds with enough accuracy to snag one.

Apparently we were supposed to hide in the rushes about 30 yards down river where the kobolds would lose LoS and we would "over hear" an important conversation.

Kaun
2010-08-08, 08:35 PM
Reasoning: Even though the DM said snagging someone with a grappling hook would count as a ranged touch attack. The sorcerer with a Str of 8 would not be able throw the grappling hook the 20' to the kobolds with enough accuracy to snag one.


Yeah i can see this takeing some damn impressive rolls to pull off.

With a str of 8 it would have all so been possible for the Kabolds to yank the sorc out of the boat if he wasn't assisted.


Side note, a lot of these stories seem to be DM's being caught flat footed and responding poorly to ideas that would have their pre planed material junked.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-08, 08:38 PM
Side note, a lot of these stories seem to be DM's being caught flat footed and responding poorly to ideas that would have their pre planed material junked.

That's the usual occurrence, yes. Unless it's some sort of serious brokenness, dms don't really have a reason to forbid something other than "that goes way away from what I expected"

Christopher K.
2010-08-08, 08:39 PM
Situation: A cult of lizardfolk had some sort of ring of runes intended to enhance the power of a crippled dragon into effectively godhood. The party had to stop the dragon for obvious reasons, but there were too many of the lizardfolk to stop by fighting them directly.

Solution: Our party's Paladin, determined to stop the dragon, managed to evade the lizardfolk and infiltrate the circle. This dragon, in its normal state, was relatively pathetic, and, though powerful, wasn't capable of defeating the Paladin. His reasoning was that the arcane energies of the circle would enhance him to be on par with with the dragon, and then the two would be able to duke it out in an epic fight, after which he would help eliminate the lizardfolk cultists. He would then attempt to dispel the enhancements once the enemies had been defeated.

DM's response: The dragon attempted repeatedly to remove the Paladin from his circle. When the paladin remained in the circle at the end of the ritual, the DM finally came up with the explanation that the circle had been attuned to this dragon in particular.

Reasoning: The dragon was supposed to become a main villain in the campaign, ascending closer and closer to godhood until he challenged Bahamut himself, in a conflict the players were supposed to resolve only in the end. Having a Paladin that could go toe-to-toe with the main villain was NOT on his agenda, especially if said Paladin's alignment went into question over being able to enter a godlike state.

Greenish
2010-08-08, 08:42 PM
That's the usual occurrence, yes. Unless it's some sort of serious brokenness, dms don't really have a reason to forbid something other than "that goes way away from what I expected"No plot survives the contact with the players… unless you make damn sure it does! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Railroading)

Snake-Aes
2010-08-08, 08:45 PM
No plot survives the contact with the players… unless you make damn sure it does! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Railroading)

That's why it tends to be healthier on everyone to design things more openly, and to be subtle. Have a few hooks for a few adventures everywhere, and when the players really go somewhere with nothing planned, return a nil (nothing to do there), make something on the spot (you spot a caravan on fire!) or relocate one of the pre-planned adventures.

Greenish
2010-08-08, 08:47 PM
That's why it tends to be healthier on everyone to design things more openly, and to be subtle. Have a few hooks for a few adventures everywhere, and when the players really go somewhere with nothing planned, return a nil (nothing to do there), make something on the spot (you spot a caravan on fire!) or relocate one of the pre-planned adventures.http://www.motivationalz.com/pictures/suddenly_bananas.jpg
…Roll Initiative.

Crasical
2010-08-08, 08:51 PM
Oh Crasical, I think you just made Micheal Bay cry.

This is now my signature.


I actually did that once. It was in a module and the kobolds pulled a string to release flour to hide our view. I cast produce flame, and threw the fire in. It knocked me and the others in the line of fire to 4 HP, but it did kill 5 kobolds, 8 rats, and pissed off a dire weasel. Along with destroying the treasure.

"The Burning Plague", right? Low-level module with Kobolds, Goblins, and plague in a mine?

Beelzebub1111
2010-08-08, 08:54 PM
Normal stone has a hardness of 8, heavy crossbow does 1d10 + whatever magical enhancement, so it will merely bounce off most of the time. :P

The real question is that would it imbed itself deep enough to be able to support the party across? Mythbusters says no.

As for me? Trying to kill beholders by sending them to the elemental plane of fire with a planeshift. It worked, but it conjured two ice devils because we "were too close to icegate and plane traveling them to such an opposite element brought them here"

The Pressman
2010-08-08, 10:23 PM
This is now my signature.



"The Burning Plague", right? Low-level module with Kobolds, Goblins, and plague in a mine?

Yup. I played a dwarf druid with a monstrous centipede companion. The druid's name was Kjård McVan Der Brændøn.

Edit: And we took the burning literally.

sambo.
2010-08-08, 10:34 PM
Situation: We know there is this BBEG lieutenant staying in this Inn, nothing special about it particularly and we have to get in and kill him to stop an invasion fleet from leaving the harbor the following morning.

Solution: His window is open on the third floor, we plan to use crossbow bolts with a rope ladder attached between them to get the rogue up the wall and into the bedroom.

Outcome: The bolts bounce harmlessly off the wall that, beneath the masonry, appears to be made completely of adamantium ~.~

Reasoning: Because bypassing all of his guards in the first two floors of the Inn with tactics and planning was "cheesy"


dear lord. any players worth their salt would make the DM pay dearly for that kind of slip-up. he's just made the party obscenely wealthy and blown average WBL out the window.

reminds me of a tournament convention game of Rolemaster i played in years (and years and years) ago.

the game-world was very metal poor. tournament points were awarded based on both how far through the adventure we get and for how much treasure we return with.

our group only played the adventure for about half an hour (of the six odd hours allowed for the game) and we ended up winning the tournament.

the reason being: we brought back the most treasure. the outer gates/portcullis of the castle in the adventure were thickly banded with iron. so we stole them as "treasure".

because of the tourny rules and the absurd value placed on metal in this game world, we were instant gazillionaires. groups who'd actually finished the whole adventure and defeated the BBEG still didn't accrue as many tournament points as we had for simply nicking the first set of gates we came too.

apparantly the adventure writer had intentionally left that "loophole" in the game just to see if anyone would actually do it.

Arctura42
2010-08-08, 10:52 PM
People like to conveniently ignore their weaknesses. Much of a wizard is disabled by snatching/sundering that pouch.

Eschew Materials?

Yukitsu
2010-08-08, 10:56 PM
Eschew Materials?

Not worth the feat. It's cheaper to just buy more than 1 pouch.

Terazul
2010-08-08, 10:57 PM
Yeah. It's only worth it if you carry around a bunch, and then when your DM finally manages to sunder them all, reveal that you never needed it to begin with. Fun times...

Tyndmyr
2010-08-08, 11:35 PM
Situation: We know there is this BBEG lieutenant staying in this Inn, nothing special about it particularly and we have to get in and kill him to stop an invasion fleet from leaving the harbor the following morning.

Solution: His window is open on the third floor, we plan to use crossbow bolts with a rope ladder attached between them to get the rogue up the wall and into the bedroom.

Outcome: The bolts bounce harmlessly off the wall that, beneath the masonry, appears to be made completely of adamantium ~.~

Reasoning: Because bypassing all of his guards in the first two floors of the Inn with tactics and planning was "cheesy"

This is the sort of random weirdness on the part of the DM that inevitably leads to me looting the wall, and the DM suddenly remembering the value of adamantium.

Beelzebub1111
2010-08-08, 11:42 PM
I don't think that the adamantium was necessary, It wouldn't have worked regardless, as a rope bridge suspended by a bolt fired from a crossbow into masonry wouldn't support someone's weight, even if it did stick.

Make 'em take falling damage.

Shpadoinkle
2010-08-08, 11:56 PM
People like to conveniently ignore their weaknesses. Much of a wizard is disabled by snatching/sundering that pouch.

That's why you carry fifty of them.

PapaNachos
2010-08-08, 11:58 PM
I don't think that the adamantium was necessary, It wouldn't have worked regardless, as a rope bridge suspended by a bolt fired from a crossbow into masonry wouldn't support someone's weight, even if it did stick.

My thoughts exactly

Also: How exactly do you attack a rope ladder to a crossbow bolt?

The Pressman
2010-08-09, 12:01 AM
Getting a natural 20 on our highest diplomacy ranked linguist-type character and still not being able to get the orcs to listen.

DM: No. Just no.

All: But we don't like to kill people!

DM: <sigh...>

Kaun
2010-08-09, 12:07 AM
My thoughts exactly

Also: How exactly do you attack a rope ladder to a crossbow bolt?

Yeah its amazing how many half baked PC ideas can be shot down simply by playing it out rather then saying flat out No!.

The Pressman
2010-08-09, 12:08 AM
Yeah its amazing how many half baked PC ideas can be shot down simply by playing it out rather then saying flat out No!.

And they won't whine nearly as much.

PapaNachos
2010-08-09, 12:10 AM
And they won't whine nearly as much.

More fun for me too.

FelixG
2010-08-09, 12:15 AM
Yeah its amazing how many half baked PC ideas can be shot down simply by playing it out rather then saying flat out No!.

If we had tried it and the weight didnt hold we would have been fine, but seriously? an Inn with its whole walls made of adamantine under masonry for a 3 story building?

I will admit the plan was fairly half cocked, and one of our goals was to be cinematic not practical, its a fantasy game after all :P

Its just the method of saying pretty much "F your plan, players" which pissed us off lol

HMS Invincible
2010-08-09, 12:17 AM
We sneak into an enemy city which hold nigh-unstoppable war machines. We dress up like the enemy soldiers and bluff our way into the city. Our mission is to scout the warmachine, destroy the city, and kill the leader.

DM: You see a 20 ft tall fey man-warmachine thingamajig go berserk and charge you. He crushes the walls of buildings and attacks you with his massive iron axe.

Me: I run out of the building and through the city all the while, taunting and attacking it from afar.

DM: He moves faster than you and can teleport.

Me: I don't care, he's as wide as the main street, so he can't keep up if I duck and weave through the alleys. Once he starts chasing me, I'll use my warlord powers to help my "allies"(the enemy soldiers) attack him. He's a berserk monster rampaging through the streets. Every soldier is gonna rush to him to try and stop him, I reason. The monster will either kill a bunch of enemy soldiers, destroy the city, or possibly both. Either way, I win, and I can do the other objectives much easier.

I start sending soldiers to their deaths to enrage the beast and make him chase me through the city more. Then something completely random happens. Chimeras come out of the sky and subdue the war machine. My ingenious plan ends with 2 enemy soldiers dying and only 1 building destroyed. Apparently, the DM wanted us to fight this beast as a solo encounter. It ends with us getting away, but we get no experience rewarded, and a bunch of damage from the initial axe attack.

Sindri
2010-08-09, 12:28 AM
Yeah its amazing how many half baked PC ideas can be shot down simply by playing it out rather then saying flat out No!.

Yeah, like when the party conjurer finally gets to Planar Binding level and summons an Efreet to milk wishes from. Just ask them exactly what they do, step by step, and in the unlikely event that they don't accidentally free it and kill themselves, give them exactly what they ask for, in the most painful way possible.

My best idea that the GM shot down was in a Serenity game. We had just finished dismantling a band of slavers, who had been shipping their "cargo" around in medical cryo-crates. One of the players looked up the value of the crates, and each of the dozen or so that we has recovered was worth about three times what we could expect to make from the entire adventure otherwise. The GM declared that we couldn't find any buyers for the highly valuable, good condition, extremely useful medical equipment :smallfrown:.

Kaun
2010-08-09, 12:38 AM
Yeah, like when the party conjurer finally gets to Planar Binding level and summons an Efreet to milk wishes from. Just ask them exactly what they do, step by step, and in the unlikely event that they don't accidentally free it and kill themselves, give them exactly what they ask for, in the most painful way possible.

My best idea that the GM shot down was in a Serenity game. We had just finished dismantling a band of slavers, who had been shipping their "cargo" around in medical cryo-crates. One of the players looked up the value of the crates, and each of the dozen or so that we has recovered was worth about three times what we could expect to make from the entire adventure otherwise. The GM declared that we couldn't find any buyers for the highly valuable, good condition, extremely useful medical equipment :smallfrown:.

Yeah DM's often forget that its not like a video game and what you often put in as some back ground flavour the PC's see as dollar signs.

I remember a KotDT strip where they went to some secluded mountain villa and rather then doing what they were ment too the spent the next couple of sessions shiping everything in the place back to town to sell for millions of GP.

It can get tireing as a DM some times dealing with clepto PC's, its one of the main reasons am reluctant to give out bags of holding or the like.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 12:39 AM
Yeah, like when the party conjurer finally gets to Planar Binding level and summons an Efreet to milk wishes from. Just ask them exactly what they do, step by step, and in the unlikely event that they don't accidentally free it and kill themselves, give them exactly what they ask for, in the most painful way possible.

Letting players hang themselves is SOooo satisfying, too. Last wish a player asked for was my favorite, "I want eyes that make me run faster."

We had to have a break due to all the hysterical laughing as we speculated on exactly how screwed he was.

Kaun
2010-08-09, 12:50 AM
"I want eyes that make me run faster."

haha

Thats like playing Russian Roulette with 5 in cylinder.

Fiery Diamond
2010-08-09, 12:51 AM
Letting players hang themselves is SOooo satisfying, too. Last wish a player asked for was my favorite, "I want eyes that make me run faster."

We had to have a break due to all the hysterical laughing as we speculated on exactly how screwed he was.

...
I think I know what he meant?
...
But still, he was asking for it.

chiasaur11
2010-08-09, 12:57 AM
Yeah, like when the party conjurer finally gets to Planar Binding level and summons an Efreet to milk wishes from. Just ask them exactly what they do, step by step, and in the unlikely event that they don't accidentally free it and kill themselves, give them exactly what they ask for, in the most painful way possible.

My best idea that the GM shot down was in a Serenity game. We had just finished dismantling a band of slavers, who had been shipping their "cargo" around in medical cryo-crates. One of the players looked up the value of the crates, and each of the dozen or so that we has recovered was worth about three times what we could expect to make from the entire adventure otherwise. The GM declared that we couldn't find any buyers for the highly valuable, good condition, extremely useful medical equipment :smallfrown:.

Wow.

Whole show's about the many, many ways a job can get complicated, and the DM don't have a plan for it?

Lot of very simple ways to have some fun with it.

IE, those crates? Stolen goods. You find a buyer, but she's inner world and probably planning something. The payout should be good...

Or it would have been, if the Alliance wasn't planning a sting.

huttj509
2010-08-09, 01:25 AM
This is the sort of random weirdness on the part of the DM that inevitably leads to me looting the wall, and the DM suddenly remembering the value of adamantium.

Along those lines I'm reminded in Shadowrun the party encountered crates in the warehouse, and asked what was in them. Smuggled traceless weapons, which the party looted a bunch of to make a very nice return. From then on all crates had "Anvils, just anvils". This, combined with a tactic to infiltrate led to the in continuity discovery of "Mario's 'mobbed up' pizza and anvil delivery service." Cause hey, all those anvils had to come from somewhere...don't recall how the mob got involved.

Edit: Reading more posts I see a theme of "check the pricing on that atmosphere text you're reading to the players so yer not surprised." Heck, describe an intricate fresco in the tomb wall that holds clues to the world saving artifact and players will start figuring how to take the wall with them to sell, and ignore the artifact.

Edit edit: And someone even made that same point before me, shows me for thinking I should consider posting halfway down page 2...

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 01:58 AM
...
I think I know what he meant?
...
But still, he was asking for it.

Oh, I gave him the "are you sure". And he's like "yup. Need eyes(there had been an unfortunate incident earlier that hard resulted in loss of eyes). Need to run faster".

Safety Sword
2010-08-09, 02:01 AM
My best idea that the GM shot down was in a Serenity game. We had just finished dismantling a band of slavers, who had been shipping their "cargo" around in medical cryo-crates. One of the players looked up the value of the crates, and each of the dozen or so that we has recovered was worth about three times what we could expect to make from the entire adventure otherwise. The GM declared that we couldn't find any buyers for the highly valuable, good condition, extremely useful medical equipment :smallfrown:.

I'd let you have the next delivery. Filled with explosives. Or have the slavers take offense to losing such valuable items and coming in strong to get them back :)

Rokurai
2010-08-09, 02:44 AM
I was the DM for this one, hopefully you'll understand my frustration.

Party rogue after a successful adventure, on the way back to the mercenary compound to be debriefed: I check if everyone is asleep.

DM: Everyone except you, you're supposed to be on first watch.

Rogue: I loot everyone's treasure shares and valuable possessions while they are asleep.

DM: Ummm... Roll a sleight of hand check I guess... and a move silently.

Rogue: *nat 20 on SoH* *18+15 on MS*

DM: I.. You can't... The druid wakes up.

Druid: Huh? What are you doing? Why do you have all my magic equipment?

Rogue: (to DM) I'll try to Bluff. (to Druid) I was just making sure that all our equipment was safe, and was going to go secure it by going to the mercenary compound ahead of you. This way you won't need to carry it all. Now go back to sleep.

Druid's Sense Motive:*2+5*
Rogues Bluff:*19+12*

*Both look at me*

DM: No, just no.

Peregrine
2010-08-09, 02:59 AM
Situation: Our party has captured the first main bad guy of this low-level adventure, a human noble who's been making deals with orcs. (Metagame, we know he's a barbarian from the combat abilities he's shown.) The party wants to torture him for information. The paladin is happy just to step outside. My wizard is the only one who shows actual opposition to the whole idea.

Solution: I warm the soles of his boots with prestidigitation and tell him that he will slowly begin to burst into flames, from the feet up, if he doesn't talk.

Reaction: "He knows magic doesn't work that way."

Say what? For one thing, that spell might not work that way, but magic as a whole actually kinda does. For another, we knew out of character that he was a barbarian; Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) were not going to be high on his skills list.

Worst of all, there were so many other ways he could have shot it down if he really wanted to: a successful Sense Motive (he never even asked me to roll Bluff, but it wasn't my strong suit), or he calls my bluff and then nothing happens, or just "prestidigitation can't warm attended objects" (not in the spell description but consistent with other cantrips).

And there was no reason to shoot it down. All he accomplished was letting the other players gleefully describe how they actually torture him, with chopping off of fingers and whatnot. My wizard went to sit outside with the paladin. :smallmad:


Reasoning: Since the Mummy Lord was flammable, he didn't want to ruin the final fight

But that could have been awesome. All the DM had to do was decide that the mummy lord had fire resistance (a sensible precaution for a monster made of bandages and dried corpse).

"Congratulations. You set the mummy lord on fire. It cackles evilly and reaches for you. Now you're fighting a burning mummy lord."

ericgrau
2010-08-09, 03:30 AM
That's why you carry fifty of them.
Spell component pouches weigh 2 lbs. each. Even carrying 3 is a major weight investment for the poor strength dumping wizard. Also vulnerable to full attack sunders, since you can only sunder in melee anyway. Ya, you can eschew materials, but there are a dozen other dangers to worry about too. Choose which ones you prepare for wisely.


Wouldn't a crossbow bolt actually also bounce off of normal masonry? <_<
Ya, but the standard way to get into an open window is a grappling hook. A good DM should have said "no, no, your characters know that a grappling hook works" and awarded bonus xp for bypassing the encounter.

Fun with lamp oil: Actually only does 1d3 or 1d6 of fire damage per round. Does not stack b/c "on fire" is a condition. And changing the terrain from "boring" to "on fire" is always a good an awesome thing. Also lame to deny.

Just saying "no" to splatbook cheese ending the campaign: Yay.

Crasical
2010-08-09, 04:30 AM
Spell component pouches weigh 2 lbs. each. Even carrying 3 is a major weight investment for the poor strength dumping wizard. Also vulnerable to full attack sunders, since you can only sunder in melee anyway. Ya, you can eschew materials, but there are a dozen other dangers to worry about too. Choose which ones you prepare for wisely.

Do people actually still Patchouli Knowledge it up and play wizards with low strength scores? All of my players have turned them into hybrids of some kind. One of theme even eschewed a dagger or staff for a pair of spiked gauntlets and went around mangling things with his bare hands after he had expended his spells and fired his crossbow.

Somewhat related: Even a strength six wizard is going to have room for backup spell component pouches. 20 pounds is light encumberment.

Four pounds for a light crossbow, one pound for 10 bolts, 5 pounds for traveling clothes still leaves you with 10 pounds worth of stuff before you're nudging on medium encumbrance. That's enough for five bags of backup spell components.

Snake-Aes
2010-08-09, 04:32 AM
Four pounds for a light crossbow, one pound for 10 bolts, 5 pounds for traveling clothes still leaves you with 10 pounds worth of stuff before you're nudging on medium encumbrance. That's enough for five bags of backup spell components.

There's also, well, your party friends. I'm fairly sure the big dumb fighter won't mind to carry a couple pouches on his backpack. Nor will the enemies expect it either.

Psyx
2010-08-09, 05:20 AM
Solution: His window is open on the third floor, we plan to use crossbow bolts with a rope ladder attached between them to get the rogue up the wall and into the bedroom.


Problem: We had a similar situation in a contemporary game. Mob boss hired us to rescue his daughter, taken by the Colombians and in an upstairs front room of a mansion just outside Miami.

Solution: Blow the gates, drive up with a van to under the window. We'd cut out the roof of the van and installed a sliding ladder. Park up, extend ladder. Climb ladder and go straight to the window to rescue the woman while other players put down cover fire and a ton of smoke grenades.

To be fair to the GM: The plan worked perfectly, we bypassed 90% of the guards, and got away clean. But the GM was good like that: He once let us completely destroy an entire Spacemaster campaign in the second session when we first encountered what was to be the game's BBEG and I gunned him down with the most ungodly string of 96-100 percentage dice rolls that I have ever witnessed. I'm glad I tend to play with GMs who answer is never a flat 'no'.

Whammydill
2010-08-09, 08:15 AM
I wanted to run a mission where the players fought 12 badgers, 2 myconids, and a snake, but the players wouldn't let me.

badger-badger-badger-badger-badger-badger-badger-badger-badger-badger-badger-badger-MUSHROOM-MUSHROOM!

Thanks, now thats in my head.....and yours!

Escheton
2010-08-09, 09:14 AM
Snake! Snake! Ow it's a snake...

Narwals, they are narwals.

Calimehter
2010-08-09, 09:59 AM
Solution: Have the dwarven paladin strip butt naked, grease him up, and slip him down the chimney.

Shot down on the grounds that: it would traumatize the children inside for life.

Having been in a party where one of my characters was scarred for life after watching a naked, greased-down dwarf mud wrestle a rust monster . . . all I can say is "good call" from your GM. Its about time somebody thought of the children!!

:smallbiggrin:

Given that your dwarven paladin probably didn't have an awful lot of ranks in Escape Artist, your GM might have also saved you even more horror. Take a few seconds and imagine having to draw straws to have to go in after the dwarf and get him unstuck. Go on, imagine it . . . you know you want to. :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 10:10 AM
There's also, well, your party friends. I'm fairly sure the big dumb fighter won't mind to carry a couple pouches on his backpack. Nor will the enemies expect it either.

Hell, having the fighter wear a robe over his armor and strap on a visible spell component pouch and a "spellbook".

I've always been disappointed when DMs act as though all NPCs know exactly what classes we are.

Psyx
2010-08-09, 10:42 AM
^Which is why a hat of disguise or similar to make you look like a class that has really good saving throws where yours utterly suck is a really, really good idea.

Caphi
2010-08-09, 10:44 AM
Hell, having the fighter wear a robe over his armor and strap on a visible spell component pouch and a "spellbook".

I've always been disappointed when DMs act as though all NPCs know exactly what classes we are.

Not necessarily. Mine react to actions in combat. Between the person who rushes you with the greatsword and the one who chills in his opening position dropping scorching rays? It doesn't really matter how they're dressed at that point, and it doesn't matter if the first guy is a fighter or a barbarian.

Now, if you have False Theurgy, or Invisible Spell, or the feat that allows you to fake your spell's origin, that is something I'd totally allow to work. A couple times, anyway.

TechnoScrabble
2010-08-09, 11:11 AM
Snake! Snake! Ow it's a snake...

Narwals, they are narwals.

I must now run a call of cthulhu game where the players are saved by narwhals.

Vantharion
2010-08-09, 11:47 AM
Idea: A bard character with ranks in Perform (Cannon)...
My DM's Reasoning: NO :smallannoyed:

Scarey Nerd
2010-08-09, 12:04 PM
Situation: We were trapped in a room by a woman, who was clearly a succubus in disguise, and she trapped the female characters in a room with her and the male characters in a seperate room, and refused to let us leave our rooms.

Solution: We used ghost sound to get her out of the house, which worked, then we barricaded the entire building so that we had time to figure out a plan. We readied ourselves by the doors, waiting for her attempts to get in, where we would attempt to reason with her.

Reaction: The Succubus went incorporeal and flew through our barricades. Didn't teleport, just went ethereal.

Didn't matter though, my Barbarian made her taste 57 damage with his Greataxe. It was agreed that she turned into red mist.

reptilecobra13
2010-08-09, 02:45 PM
I must now run a call of cthulhu game where the players are saved by narwhals.

I will teach my players CoC just for this.

Toliudar
2010-08-09, 04:20 PM
Disclaimer: This blind spot aside, the campaign described was wonderful, and we had a great time.

Scenario: This part of the world has devolved from a powerful empire propping itself up through power brokering and interbreeding with demons, into a series of fractious states, many of whom were still doing the same or worse. Most of the PC's are from noble families, although we're split about whether the return of the empire would be A Good Thing.

BBEG who might or might not be E is working on a plan to re-energize a crown that gave his father mental control over all the nobles in the land. My character, as a CG noble, is not thrilled with this idea. This becomes a plot point.

Me: So, this crown works through an oath?

Long Suffering Hard Working DM: Yup.

Me: An oath to the empire, or a personal oath to the father? Cause the son doesn't actually rule anything yet.

LSHWD: The oath was to the father.

Me: Standard oath of loyalty, service to death?

LSHWD: Yup.

Me: Perfect. Dad's dead. His dad's dead. The oath is discharged. I got nothing to worry about.

LSHWD: ....shut up.

Katana_Geldar
2010-08-09, 08:41 PM
We were playing privateers during the Clone Wars in Star Wars SE. We went to Kamino and had to escort some chick to Coruscant, but the GM made the mistake of paying us before we completed the job.
I saw my moment here and asked if he was 100% sure he was going to pay us all our money before we did the job. Then, when he said yes, I proposed to the players to go to Nar Shaddaa instead and sell her over to the Seppies. Hey, alls fair in love and war, right?
The GM, sensing his campaign was getting away from him, tried to have NPCs ask what the hell we were doing, until I pointed out that the conversation took place on the ship where we would not be overheard. That wasn't the first time the GM interrupted us when we were roleplaying and trying to hurry the plot when we enjoyed ourselves.
I think he chased us of Kamino with some fighters, or attempted to when I asked how the NPCs knew what we were doing. So to circumvent him and pretty much get him to shut the **** up, we took a jump into deep space in the Unknown Regions where we would not be found. In hyperspace we made our plans, me and another player convinced them by saying that lama Su was stupid enough the trust us and pay us in advance.
Then we came out of hyperspace....and head to head with a huge star destroyer. In unknown space, chasing us small time crooks for something they didn't know we did!

I am so glad that he is not in our group anymore, even if it did mean lack of gaming as he hosted us.

Escheton
2010-08-09, 09:00 PM
Man, most of these could be fixed by simply explaining to the dm that karma does not have to be instantaneous. You have a entire campaign to take away what they stole from you...uhm some npc.
Anything they do to frell things up can be fixed later with logic and a little plot bending.
Having them make will-saves against being so elated by new found wealth that they brag or mention it in the wrong circles. Or a big buy draws attentions or dozens other perfectly logical ways on how it could backfire, if you really want to harsh their mellow.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-09, 09:19 PM
Reason: The DM had already rolled for the storm to intensify and produce a waterspout. My plan would result in a near-TPK, killing everyone but me and ending the adventure since my character isn't directly involved in the plot.So? The party sold you into slavery. They screw you over, you screw them over. Sounds fair to me.


apparantly the adventure writer had intentionally left that "loophole" in the game just to see if anyone would actually do it.Sounds like something I'd do.


"Congratulations. You set the mummy lord on fire. It cackles evilly and reaches for you. Now you're fighting a burning mummy lord."This I would have done. And that oil? Yes it old. That makes it really, really potent!

Reading this thread makes me feel like a really good DM

The Pressman
2010-08-09, 09:23 PM
So? The party sold you into slavery. They screw you over, you screw them over. Sounds fair to me.

Sounds like something I'd do.

This I would have done. And that oil? Yes it old. That makes it really, really potent!

Reading this thread makes me feel like a really good DM

Interesting for someone named 'PlzBreakMyCmpAn'.

jguy
2010-08-09, 09:38 PM
I did this mostly to prove a point to my DM that he needed to stop ragging on one of my players who he calls a Power Gamer when me being a transmutation specialist is much more OP'd. He thinks the players Force Bow is OP'd because it can hit ghosts and ignores DR. (This is an undead campaign with Super-Evils zombies. Zombies with none of the drawbacks of being a zombie, all the benefits.)

Situation: I had transmuted 20,000 pounds of rock into a 5 pound rock through Shrink Item. I used it to crush two Winter Wolves. GM said that the force of the drop shattered the rock into a bunch of pieces.

Solution: "Okay, the rock is shattered but the magic is still going on. I shrink the boulders back down into dust and scoop it into a empty potion jar. I hand it to the Ranger who has a better strength/dex than me.

Reaction: "NO, just no. You cannot have in instant kill jar of boulders."

sambo.
2010-08-09, 09:48 PM
I was the DM for this one, hopefully you'll understand my frustration.

Party rogue after a successful adventure, on the way back to the mercenary compound to be debriefed: I check if everyone is asleep.

DM: Everyone except you, you're supposed to be on first watch.

Rogue: I loot everyone's treasure shares and valuable possessions while they are asleep.

DM: Ummm... Roll a sleight of hand check I guess... and a move silently.

Rogue: *nat 20 on SoH* *18+15 on MS*

DM: I.. You can't... The druid wakes up.

Druid: Huh? What are you doing? Why do you have all my magic equipment?

Rogue: (to DM) I'll try to Bluff. (to Druid) I was just making sure that all our equipment was safe, and was going to go secure it by going to the mercenary compound ahead of you. This way you won't need to carry it all. Now go back to sleep.

Druid's Sense Motive:*2+5*
Rogues Bluff:*19+12*

*Both look at me*

DM: No, just no.

there's a much simpler way out of that sort of dilemma: Bluff cannot be used by a player against another player.

never, in any campaign i've played in more than 20 years of gaming, have i EVER allowed "social skills" (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate and the like) to be used by one player against another.

if you're the party rogue and you want to bluff the party druid, well, he's sitting at the table across from you. off you go, bluff him.

it's called ROLE PLAYING.

i've seen examples where it's been allowed and in my experience, it never ends well.

everyone winds up having to max out Sense Motive just to defend themselves against the Party Face and other Bluff-types.

personally, i just will not allow it at my table.

ever.

Katana_Geldar
2010-08-09, 09:49 PM
That's borderline PvP and it's not on.

sambo.
2010-08-09, 10:01 PM
i got no issues with PvP (i <3 Paranoia). it can be good fun.

i got BIG issues with one player turning to another player, tossing a die across the table and saying: "You now believe XYZ and will behave an ABC manner coz i won the opposed bluff/sense motive check".

Escheton
2010-08-09, 10:08 PM
Again, it is something a rogue would do. And playing the Brady bunch of adventuring parties suck. Under threat of violence is also group dynamics. You play rogues because normally they lie cheat and steal, from everyone.
Now you have a party that happens to be controlled by players and everything is hunky-dory? That just doesn't make sense. And it is probably that lack of sense the player of the druidrobbing rogue is going up against.
Sure you should curb the "it's what the character would do" when playing with others to be considerate but having no conflict whatsoever? In a group of violent wealthy hobo's? yeah...

Yukitsu
2010-08-09, 10:13 PM
Again, it is something a rogue would do. And playing the Brady bunch of adventuring parties suck. Under threat of violence is also group dynamics. You play rogues because normally they lie cheat and steal, from everyone.
Now you have a party that happens to be controlled by players and everything is hunky-dory? That just doesn't make sense. And it is probably that lack of sense the player of the druidrobbing rogue is going up against.
Sure you should curb the "it's what the character would do" when playing with others to be considerate but having no conflict whatsoever? In a group of violent wealthy hobo's? yeah...

That's why most rogues have the sense not to steal the party stuff.

That aside, blatant lies have a -20 penalty. The Druid should have passed that opposed check.

jguy
2010-08-09, 10:18 PM
If the party had a cleric at all, all it would take is a scry spell to find him right away, then its 1 rogue vs Entire party of pissed of players.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-09, 10:44 PM
That's why most rogues have the sense not to steal the party stuff.

That aside, blatant lies have a -20 penalty. The Druid should have passed that opposed check.

And That is why it is fun to play a Bard that knows Glibness and Has Bluff Maxed and Charisma Boosted.

Fiery Diamond
2010-08-09, 10:55 PM
And That is why it is fun to play a Bard that knows Glibness and Has Bluff Maxed and Charisma Boosted.

I think the penalties in the book aren't harsh enough, so I give completely obvious lies (such as declaring an impossibility to be fact) a -40. One PC in one of my campaigns still managed to convince an NPC with no sense motive that a second PC had tied himself up, from head to toe, tight enough that he could only move by wriggling like a worm. He had glibness, a +15ish modifier normally, and rolled something like a 17. The NPC didn't stand a chance unless he nat 20-ed.

Escheton
2010-08-09, 10:57 PM
If the party had a cleric at all, all it would take is a scry spell to find him right away, then its 1 rogue vs Entire party of pissed of players.

Exactly, problem mitigated in-game without dm fiat. The party emphasizes they can find and hurt him and the rogue emphasizes his use to the party and how his greed got away from him, besides it's all in good fun, right guys?
And for some partys this will be more roleplaying then they usually do all campaign.

-40 is a bit much. You are obviously not taking in account some people simply not caring enough and letting something they know to probably be a lie slide. Part of the bluffcheck is to invoke this sort of mindset/behaviour.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-09, 11:02 PM
The Fun Part is the DM staring at you in slack jawed horror when you convince the king that he is dead and everything is his imagination and that he should write you into his will and kill himself. Then you convince everyone that you had nothing to do with his death. Please enjoy Responsibly.

EDIT: If you do this, become a Lich, as there is officially nothing you can do to get into a pleasant afterlife. Also, a Singing Lich is the most ridiculously gut-bustingly funny thing ever.

Yukitsu
2010-08-09, 11:53 PM
I think the penalties in the book aren't harsh enough, so I give completely obvious lies (such as declaring an impossibility to be fact) a -40. One PC in one of my campaigns still managed to convince an NPC with no sense motive that a second PC had tied himself up, from head to toe, tight enough that he could only move by wriggling like a worm. He had glibness, a +15ish modifier normally, and rolled something like a 17. The NPC didn't stand a chance unless he nat 20-ed.

I prefer the solution of "you believe he's being honest", not that his honesty actually reflects the reality of the situation. Kinda like how Kender may honestly believe they aren't stealing, but they are.

TheLaughingMan
2010-08-09, 11:57 PM
The Fun Part is the DM staring at you in slack jawed horror when you convince the king that he is dead and everything is his imagination and that he should write you into his will and kill himself. Then you convince everyone that you had nothing to do with his death. Please enjoy Responsibly.

EDIT: If you do this, become a Lich, as there is officially nothing you can do to get into a pleasant afterlife. Also, a Singing Lich is the most ridiculously gut-bustingly funny thing ever.

:O Nice one.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-10, 12:30 AM
The Fun Part is the DM staring at you in slack jawed horror when you convince the king that he is dead and everything is his imagination and that he should write you into his will and kill himself. Then you convince everyone that you had nothing to do with his death. Please enjoy Responsibly.

EDIT: If you do this, become a Lich, as there is officially nothing you can do to get into a pleasant afterlife. Also, a Singing Lich is the most ridiculously gut-bustingly funny thing ever.

A Singing Lich is funny, sure. A lich pounding away on his custom-built organ/piano that wails with the screams of imprisoned souls while spewing save-or-die spells in all directions? Badass.:smallbiggrin:

The Pressman
2010-08-10, 12:35 AM
A Singing Lich is funny, sure. A lich pounding away on his custom-built organ/piano that wails with the screams of imprisoned souls while spewing save-or-die spells in all directions? Badass.:smallbiggrin:

"Play us a song, you're the piano man; you've got all our souls locked tight; play us a song, oh piano man; you're scaring us all half to fright."

Dairun Cates
2010-08-10, 12:42 AM
Problem: There's a Sith in that cave, and he ain't happy.

Solution: Use the Diplomat's access and favors to flood the cave with accelerant (and yes, I had the check to do it).

Shot Down Because: "Guys. I'll let you get away with some crazy ideas, but you are NOT killing the sith lord with rocket fuel."

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-10, 12:43 AM
"Play us a song, you're the piano man; you've got all our souls locked tight; play us a song, oh piano man; you're scaring us all half to fright."

You are officially the King of Piano. (Glibness!) Now Write me into your Will and kill yourself. Also, Can I have that organ?

ericgrau
2010-08-10, 12:53 AM
Do people actually still Patchouli Knowledge it up and play wizards with low strength scores? All of my players have turned them into hybrids of some kind. One of theme even eschewed a dagger or staff for a pair of spiked gauntlets and went around mangling things with his bare hands after he had expended his spells and fired his crossbow.

Somewhat related: Even a strength six wizard is going to have room for backup spell component pouches. 20 pounds is light encumberment.

Four pounds for a light crossbow, one pound for 10 bolts, 5 pounds for traveling clothes still leaves you with 10 pounds worth of stuff before you're nudging on medium encumbrance. That's enough for five bags of backup spell components.
Don't forget 3 lbs. for your spell book. If not 1 or more spares of that too. Plus dagger, food, water, bedroll, 10 more bolts for later, anything else at all. Heck, that extra set of clothing is a luxury you can't afford (your first set doesn't count towards your weight limit). I've had strength 8-10 casters struggle to make due with just 1 pouch. You need to be within walking distance of the local dungeon to pull off your idea, or have an ally willing to be a mule... And then a full attack ruins all your careful planning and plea-bargaining. Or your ally is carrying your spare, but you're still screwed for the rest of the fight or else both you and him are screwed for a round as he tosses over the replacement in plain sight of Mr. sunderer.



i got BIG issues with one player turning to another player, tossing a die across the table and saying: "You now believe XYZ and will behave an ABC manner coz i won the opposed bluff/sense motive check".
Not just a problem with PCs. It's also a problem with monsters. Just say no to stupid bluff checks. At best there's a hefty penalty (see bluff rules), at worst it makes no sense and cannot be done at all. The target just thinks you're crazy or something, even though he doesn't think you're lying to him.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-08-10, 02:18 AM
never, in any campaign i've played in more than 20 years of gaming, have i EVER allowed "social skills" (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate and the like) to be used by one player against another.Oddly its a gentleman's agreement (stronger than 'lets stay a party') that even holds for evil parties (where PvP happens). NPCs however suffer more than usual :smallamused:


Interesting for someone named 'PlzBreakMyCmpAn'.I'm full of surprises. Powergamers play my campaigns and compliment me even when I nerf them. You'd be surprised how happy players are when you give them a campaign world with tons of options and every NPC stated up if case of attack :smallcool:

TechnoScrabble
2010-08-10, 06:54 AM
The Fun Part is the DM staring at you in slack jawed horror when you convince the king that he is dead and everything is his imagination and that he should write you into his will and kill himself. Then you convince everyone that you had nothing to do with his death. Please enjoy Responsibly.

EDIT: If you do this, become a Lich, as there is officially nothing you can do to get into a pleasant afterlife. Also, a Singing Lich is the most ridiculously gut-bustingly funny thing ever.

Lich gnome bard with a harmonica? And a dancing band of skeleton badgers?

Escheton
2010-08-10, 07:50 AM
Lich gnome bard with a harmonica? And a dancing band of skeleton badgers?

Is he a pirate ninja too?

Tyndmyr
2010-08-10, 07:59 AM
i got no issues with PvP (i <3 Paranoia). it can be good fun.

i got BIG issues with one player turning to another player, tossing a die across the table and saying: "You now believe XYZ and will behave an ABC manner coz i won the opposed bluff/sense motive check".

The way I've always played it out is that the bluff merely convinces you that he believes his statement is genuine. So, you might believe that he really was doing it out of concern for you.

It does not mean you are forced to roll over, go back to sleep, and let him make off with all your stuff. Bluff is not mind control.

super dark33
2010-08-10, 08:31 AM
my DM let someone in my groupe to hire a man that will carry his stuff. so, i notice how cheap is it. so- i bought an elephent, a balista and 5 people that will use it, one the elephent. that was cool! it cost less then 1000 gp

KiltedGrappler
2010-08-10, 09:35 AM
My old group was playing some Shadowrun 3e. Our runners needed to assassinate a Renraku scientist before his super-virus can get out. Mr. Johnson gives us a decent sum of money to outfit our group.

It was supposed to be used on drones, surveilance equipment, high-powered sniper rifles, infiltration gear, normal stuff like that. What was it actually used for? Seven pounds of high-grade plastic explosives. Think C4 but with a lot more boom. One of the other PCs had an extensive background in military demolitions in his backstory, but had yet to really showcase that part of his character. We were happy to oblige him.

So time comes to blow the roof off the building. We sneak onto the compound, silently disable the guards, place the charges, press the big red button, and...nothing. Not a damn thing.

The GMs response? "It's raining where you are, and the water ruined the detonators."

Despite our protests as to why this was a load of BS, we were forced to try to infiltrate the building right then and there. Underequiped and unprepared. A TPK soon followed.

Mnemnosyne
2010-08-10, 09:54 AM
there's a much simpler way out of that sort of dilemma: Bluff cannot be used by a player against another player.

never, in any campaign i've played in more than 20 years of gaming, have i EVER allowed "social skills" (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate and the like) to be used by one player against another.
The player 'being bluffed' will often be using OOC knowledge in order to base his disbelief on, however. Unless you scrupulously separate the players the instant anything happens in game to separate them, so that the players are aware of only as much as the characters are. And that sounds like a really, really annoying way to run a game.


That aside, blatant lies have a -20 penalty. The Druid should have passed that opposed check.
This, however, would have been the reasonable answer. That particular lie was so stupid it should have been unbelievable on the face of it. Indeed, no bluff check should be required if the DM judges the lie to be so obviously untrue that nobody would ever buy it, without some kind of extenuating circumstances. You might convince the target that you believe what you're saying, in which case he thinks you're delusional instead of intentionally trying to put one over on him, but he still won't believe the obvious untruth.

Bluff is for plausible lies.

Arbane
2010-08-10, 01:49 PM
Again, it is something a rogue would do.

A Chaotic Stupid one, maybe.

Marillion
2010-08-10, 02:45 PM
Situation: The BBEG is standing at a window he just disintegrated, screaming in impotent fury as one of the other PCs in the form of a raven manages to escape carrying the unholy screaming book that gave the BBEG his powers. Very soon, his attention will turn to the group of thieves who are still in his castle and are barely able to stand, let alone take on a lightning bruiser with a sorcery we've never heard of that can cause people to disintegrate where they stand.

Solution: Kick him out the window.

Reasoning: "He disintegrated the glass in the window so he could have a line of effect to the raven, but not the iron bars in the window. All you would do is shove his face into the bars and, while I'm sure it would be satisfying, it would make him VERY angry. I suggest you take this opportunity to RUN instead."

Fair enough.

DMGreg
2010-08-10, 03:29 PM
Reading more posts I see a theme of "check the pricing on that atmosphere text you're reading to the players so yer not surprised." Heck, describe an intricate fresco in the tomb wall that holds clues to the world saving artifact and players will start figuring how to take the wall with them to sell, and ignore the artifact.

I've begun counting any "arts" like this in the treasure pool for the adventures I write, knowing my players are the klepto sort. Aside from the first few games, any DM worth their salt should know whether they have a group that will try to pry the gold leaf off the otherwise worthless end table to make a quick buck. Knowing this in advance, it's trivial to decide that, say, 1/4 of the treasure value you intend to dole out comes from lootables like this.

Sure, you can go with the "it's stolen goods" excuse for not being able to find a buyer, though that becomes less of an option as transportation options increase; the party can just teleport to another city far away and offload the goods. If you're really caught off guard, maybe the owner was deep in debt to support his lavish life style and now his creditors are after you to recover some of what they're owed. Alternatively, you can have an entire side-story arc with an insurance concern taking matters into their own hands to recoup some of their losses. It's always so much more fun to say 'yes' than to contrive a way to say 'no'!

Skorj
2010-08-10, 05:27 PM
Yeah, like when the party conjurer finally gets to Planar Binding level and summons an Efreet to milk wishes from. Just ask them exactly what they do, step by step, and in the unlikely event that they don't accidentally free it and kill themselves, give them exactly what they ask for, in the most painful way possible.

There was a game where a player was using this approach for a simple wish: to be teleported to where the rest of the party was. Had he simply asked for the wish, the DM would have given it to him (it's always annoying to DM a splity party). However, instead, he wrote up a 3-page wish full of every condition and caveat possible to ensure he arrived safely. The DM took that as a personal challange. Result? The poor guy forgot to specify the velocity at which he would arrive. We heard the falling tone of an artilery shell inbound, and it was all downhill from there (so to speak).


Hell, having the fighter wear a robe over his armor and strap on a visible spell component pouch and a "spellbook".

I've always been disappointed when DMs act as though all NPCs know exactly what classes we are.

Of course, if your DM gives you a free Handy Haversack with a logo on it that tells the world that you're a wizard, and you carry it openly, then he has an excuse. :smallamused:

Escheton
2010-08-10, 05:46 PM
A Chaotic Stupid one, maybe.

You assume it is done without planning, guile, wit and finesse. And judging from how it went with the druid this specific player may lack the cunning to do this in any way other than "Chaotic Stupidly". It remains however that it is a trait and behaviour ingrained in the very make-up of the rogue. They where called thiefs in earlier editions for a reason.

holywhippet
2010-08-10, 08:03 PM
there's a much simpler way out of that sort of dilemma: Bluff cannot be used by a player against another player.

never, in any campaign i've played in more than 20 years of gaming, have i EVER allowed "social skills" (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate and the like) to be used by one player against another.

if you're the party rogue and you want to bluff the party druid, well, he's sitting at the table across from you. off you go, bluff him.

it's called ROLE PLAYING.

i've seen examples where it's been allowed and in my experience, it never ends well.

everyone winds up having to max out Sense Motive just to defend themselves against the Party Face and other Bluff-types.

personally, i just will not allow it at my table.

ever.

There are two main problems with that - first, it can involve OoC knowledge too much. If your character is someone simple minded like Thog then it might be possible to convince them that you are just taking the treasure for safe keeping. Most players aren't that stupid though and will see through the rather transparent lie. Second, you are allowing out of game skill to influence in game results. That would allow someone with no bluff or charisma to pull off some top notch scams if they are good enough at fast talking.

Personally I think you'd be better off setting ground rules about what players are allowed to do to each others characters.

AslanCross
2010-08-10, 09:57 PM
Situation: Pirates are going to raid the ship.

Solution: Sneak onto the pirate ship and blow up their gunpowder stash.

Outcome: A colossal dragon skeleton swoops down from the sky and destroys the pirate ship. It flies off, never to be seen again.

Reasoning: Who knows?

Skeletons not having flight notwithstanding. :smallannoyed:





EDIT: If you do this, become a Lich, as there is officially nothing you can do to get into a pleasant afterlife. Also, a Singing Lich is the most ridiculously gut-bustingly funny thing ever.

Not if he sings death metal. That would then be TOTALLY AWESOME. I think the lich's raspy voice is very conducive to death metal growling.

(I don't really like death metal, but it's just too awesome.)

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-10, 10:17 PM
Yeah, but the "Evil Bards do Metal" gag has been done to death. Now, a walking skeleton singing, playing a lute, and getting everyone to like him? Hilarious.

sambo.
2010-08-10, 10:23 PM
There are two main problems with that - first, it can involve OoC knowledge too much. If your character is someone simple minded like Thog then it might be possible to convince them that you are just taking the treasure for safe keeping. Most players aren't that stupid though and will see through the rather transparent lie. Second, you are allowing out of game skill to influence in game results. That would allow someone with no bluff or charisma to pull off some top notch scams if they are good enough at fast talking.

ok, if my players started acting super intelligent while playing an Int 3 Barbarian, they'd be getting XP penalties.

i found out long, long ago that one of the best ways to ensure players role-play their characters properly is to reward them for doing so and penalise them for failing to do so.

now, if OOC around the table the Int 3 Barb player comes up with a really good idea about some problem the party is facing, i'll allow them to make an Int check to see if their character actually thought up that idea.

having seen the unholy mess that can happen when Bluff/Diplomacy and the like are allowed between players, i'll go the Third Way thanx and ban the use of such skills between PCs.

note, NONE of that applies when a PC uses magical effects on another PC (Charm Person and the like), although the target PC gets saves etc as per usual (and often with some kind of bonus).

if i'm running a PvP game, my players will know it beforehand (usually because they requested a session or two of PvP).

i dislike it when a PvDM game turns into a PvP game. especially if it's just one player being something of a twit.

Arbane
2010-08-10, 11:04 PM
It remains however that it is a trait and behaviour ingrained in the very make-up of the rogue. They where called thiefs in earlier editions for a reason.

Uh, NO.

Last time I checked, D&D Rogues, Thieves, or whatever you want to call them don't have "Compulsive Kleptomania" listed as a mandatory behavior pattern in their class description. This was just some bozo who didn't feel like being a team player.

Escheton
2010-08-10, 11:23 PM
Uh, NO.

Last time I checked, D&D Rogues, Thieves, or whatever you want to call them don't have "Compulsive Kleptomania" listed as a mandatory behavior pattern in their class description. This was just some bozo who didn't feel like being a team player.

Taking it too far. Not mandatory, just a likely temptation for most.
This specific player was simply overplaying a commonly shared class-trait.
For whatever reason, be it because lack of roleplaying was keeping the character shallow and clichéd and the player in need of character interaction, or just because he was a dink, the "greedy backstabbing rogue" should not be curbed by the dm simply because his actions are against other players. Rogues are generally against everyone (well, more for themselves) just like 'noble valorous paladins' are for everyone.
These may be exaggerated archetypes, but part of it lives in the heart of every rogue and paladin. Or at least in that of the people playing them.
They should not be shot down by a dm oversensitive about pvp.

drengnikrafe
2010-08-10, 11:52 PM
now, if OOC around the table the Int 3 Barb player comes up with a really good idea about some problem the party is facing, i'll allow them to make an Int check to see if their character actually thought up that idea.

I've seen posts with long, angry rants about how "I came up with a brilliant idea, but my DM said my character couldn't have done it". If you're going to force your low int players to roll to see if they can come up with a brilliant plan, you should also roll for your high int players, and if they roll well, you should come up with a plan for them. Since their character should have been able to come up with that.

No, I probably don't really feel that way, but I get kind of angry at DMs who shut me down for a reason as silly as that I rolled poorly, so I don't get to think.

Kylarra
2010-08-10, 11:55 PM
Usually there's a high int character in the group, so we just assume that the high int char puzzles out the specifics from some random idiot savant insight that the dumb character provides.

Escheton
2010-08-11, 12:11 AM
A better way might be to just roleplay your flat int.
Just like in a match to see who is stronger by armwrestling the higher str score flat out wins.
Your character might not come up with the plan, but what is stopping you from making the fool stumble into the exact situation you want him in?

What also works is just channeling your bright idea through the party wizard/psion/archivist/smart rogue/smart paladin/smart whatever.

Binks
2010-08-11, 12:14 AM
I've always personally been a fan of the methodology where your characters int (and wis) don't determine what you can come up with, but rather how well you can explain your plan. So if you're a int 3, wis 4 barbarian sure you can have a flash of insight...but good luck explaining it to the other players in a way they'll understand. High int/wis characters can be assumed to be able to explain their plans, low int/wis characters have to roleplay their explanations in a way that fits their character. Built-in penalty that can turn out to be a nice bonus.

My gaming group tends to be fine with any ideas, no matter how silly or against the rules. I've personally shot down a few ideas for getting bonuses, but never a general plan (just a 'no you don't get a bonus for that'). Haven't really had any good ideas shot down for no reason. Plenty of 'seemed like a good idea at the time' ones shot down on account of logic showing up, like the plan to ram an enemy fight (would have killed everyone aboard our ship by the ramming rules, something I pointed out after 2m of research...shortly after I came up with the plan :P) and lots of 'sure, go ahead and try that...yeah it doesn't work like you thought it would, here's what happens' ones that made perfect sense afterwards.

TechnoScrabble
2010-08-11, 02:36 AM
I've seen posts with long, angry rants about how "I came up with a brilliant idea, but my DM said my character couldn't have done it". If you're going to force your low int players to roll to see if they can come up with a brilliant plan, you should also roll for your high int players, and if they roll well, you should come up with a plan for them. Since their character should have been able to come up with that.

No, I probably don't really feel that way, but I get kind of angry at DMs who shut me down for a reason as silly as that I rolled poorly, so I don't get to think.

If a player makes a good plan in one of my games and it works, I allow them an INT bonus on all related checks during the plan's enaction.

kestrel404
2010-08-11, 11:34 AM
The situation: The BBEG (a scary shapeshifting monster that likes to eat people, and is just at the plausible edge of party-survival if we get into a fight) is manipulating a small suburb of an underground dwarven city into hating the local government. The suburb, in response, begins collapsing all of the tunnels that lead OUT to the rest of the city. The PCs are now stuck in a city that is effectively holding itself under siege.

My character's solution: I tried to incite a full-scale rebellion. Instead of working AGAINST the BBEG's plot to foment discord and trap everyone, I try going with the flow. I start impersonating City Guards (who had all been driven out beforehand), 'sneaking' out of the sewer system and otherwise pretending to have bypassed the suburb's defenses. I also get 'official notices' printed declaring a state of war to exist between the suburb and the rest of the city. Finally, I started training a small army of the villagers - since they 'trusted' the party, as long as we didn't openly disagree with the BBEG.

Unfortunately, before my plans could come to fruition (Having the villagers tunnel back out of their own suburb to 'attack' the main city, thereby getting the idiots arrested and acquiring much-needed reinforcements), the BBEG revealed himself and proceeded to start murdering everyone. On the bright side, my improvised militia came in handy, as they basically kept the big-bad flanked at tall times in the fight.

Roga
2010-08-11, 04:19 PM
Situation: Party has you stereotypical Klepto Kender, which I despise. I'm been in 5 games with them and they've always been the reason the game collapsed. I was determined to Kender-proof my character.

My Solution: I'm playing an Oozemaster, and had commissioned a Special Bag of holding that was a Small Iron flask. The nozzle was 1 inch across so I could squeeze anything I wanted in there from a Canoe to a potion using Malleability. So I was the only person who could get things out of it. I paid for it, and it's cap, to be immune to Acid. And I would swallow it when I didn't need it, and could reach in and pull it out as a full round action. I would sleep myself in a larger Urn (also immune to acid) and coated myself in my Con damaging slime.

GM Response: I wake up in my urn and find that despite my defenses the Kender had unintentionally stolen my flask. To compound the issue, he had put a note in it and threw it in the ocean to see if anyone would ever read his message. I hate kenders, that's the game that made me refuse to ever play in a game with one again.

------------
To calm down off the Rant, here's a crazy thing we got away with in a different game.

Situation: In one dungeon, the party came across the door that would spew a fireball anytime we touched it's surface.

Solution: Rip the door off it's hinges and sovereign glue it to my tower shield. Proceed to charge a line of Goblins/Orcs in a hallway

GM response: No more Goblins or Orcs. The door eventually was sundered by the BBEG's Adamantine Maul. But hey, free Adamantine Maul :D

Umael
2010-08-11, 04:59 PM
GM Response: I wake up in my urn and find that despite my defenses the Kender had unintentionally stolen my flask. To compound the issue, he had put a note in it and threw it in the ocean to see if anyone would ever read his message.

...how?

You look like you had all your bases covered.

Tell me the GM actually gave you reason how the kender could have possibly managed to do it.

Also, after all those defenses, how does one, even a kender, "unintentionally steal"?

shadow_archmagi
2010-08-11, 05:28 PM
Also, after all those defenses, how does one, even a kender, "unintentionally steal"?

Well I saw it was raining, see, so I wanted to climb into the giant urn and make sure it wasn't flooding and then I saw a bug climb into your mouth and I knew you didn't want to eat a bug so I reached in there and accidentally grabbed the flask and well I figured you didn't really need one of those in your stomach you know?




Debate debate


Personally, I let everyone contribute as much as they can, and then the players do it without conferring in character. Saying "Your barbarian couldn't have had that idea" is a terrible solution. If the ENTIRE PARTY had chosen to play 8 Int characters, then maybe, but as is it's really easy to just claim the party Nerd came up with it (Be he a cleric or psion or whatever)

Roga
2010-08-11, 05:55 PM
...how?

You look like you had all your bases covered.

Tell me the GM actually gave you reason how the kender could have possibly managed to do it.

Also, after all those defenses, how does one, even a kender, "unintentionally steal"?

ME: How exactly did he "accidentally" Open my Urn, reach down my throat without taking at least 1d6 Con, and pull out my flask?
DM: He's a Kender
ME: But explain how, I put a lot of investment into protecting myself. You knew my intentions when I commissioned those items.
DM: I already said, He's a Kender.
ME: *Incomprehensible Rage*

Umael
2010-08-11, 06:33 PM
ME: How exactly did he "accidentally" Open my Urn, reach down my throat without taking at least 1d6 Con, and pull out my flask?
DM: He's a Kender
ME: But explain how, I put a lot of investment into protecting myself. You knew my intentions when I commissioned those items.
DM: I already said, He's a Kender.
ME: *Incomprehensible Rage*

I.e., the DM was a booby.

I hope you didn't play with him any longer after that.

Yukitsu
2010-08-11, 06:35 PM
ME: How exactly did he "accidentally" Open my Urn, reach down my throat without taking at least 1d6 Con, and pull out my flask?
DM: He's a Kender
ME: But explain how, I put a lot of investment into protecting myself. You knew my intentions when I commissioned those items.
DM: I already said, He's a Kender.
ME: *Incomprehensible Rage*

This is why this should be what you say, every time the DM tries to introduce one into the plot.

"And so you see the Kender..."
"A Kender? I kill it."
"But you're a paladin..."
"Not anymore I'm not. Now I'm a fallen paladin that hunts down Kender."
":smallfrown:"

jguy
2010-08-11, 07:00 PM
I would have melted that Kender like the wax in a fire. Then call it an accident. No jury would convict me.

Was it an NPC kender or an actual player?

Roga
2010-08-11, 07:04 PM
Actual Player, but the GM was pushing most of his nonsense.
I never played with any of those players again.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-11, 07:08 PM
ME: How exactly did he "accidentally" Open my Urn, reach down my throat without taking at least 1d6 Con, and pull out my flask?
DM: He's a Kender
ME: But explain how, I put a lot of investment into protecting myself. You knew my intentions when I commissioned those items.
DM: I already said, He's a Kender.
ME: *Incomprehensible Rage*

Some people are just horrible. :smallannoyed::smallsigh:

Kylarra
2010-08-11, 07:08 PM
Yeah I wouldn't blame you for leaving a group like that, kender or not.

Beelzebub1111
2010-08-11, 09:30 PM
ugh, No one plays a kender right. They DON'T STEAL VALUABLE THINGS! They'd rather have an interesting looking leaf than a boring gold piece.

Arbane
2010-08-11, 10:06 PM
"And so you see the Kender..."
"A Kender? I kill it."
"But you're a paladin..."
"Not anymore I'm not. Now I'm a fallen paladin that hunts down Kender."
":smallfrown:"

Nah, just pick a faith that says that killing Kender isn't a sin. There's GOT to be at least one Lawful non-Evil deity who could be talked into making that into part of the dogma....

jguy
2010-08-11, 10:16 PM
probably a LN god that abhors stealing. At least one that allows the chopping off of hands

Yukitsu
2010-08-11, 10:43 PM
Nah, just pick a faith that says that killing Kender isn't a sin. There's GOT to be at least one Lawful non-Evil deity who could be talked into making that into part of the dogma....

Let me rephrase this. I will stitch my blanket from their collected skins, string my viola with their intestines, and build my house out of their bones. :smallfurious:

The Pressman
2010-08-11, 10:45 PM
Let me rephrase this. I will stitch my blanket from their collected skins, string my viola with their intestines, and build my house out of their bones. :smallfurious:

Why stop at viola? For something truly evil, make an accordion out of their stomach.

Ranos
2010-08-11, 10:45 PM
Killing kender is always a lawful good act.

The Pressman
2010-08-11, 10:48 PM
In this thread, share the best ideas you've ever had or heard that the DM shot down immediately.

Mine is:

The party is trying to gain entrance into a lone cabin in the forest. The door is barred from the inside, so the rogue can't pick the lock, and there are no windows on any side. We can't burn our way in, for fear of harming the defenseless, kidnapped children inside we're supposed to rescue.

Solution: Have the dwarven paladin strip butt naked, grease him up, and slip him down the chimney.

Shot down on the grounds that: it would traumatize the children inside for life.

SHUNT BACK ON TRACK

chiasaur11
2010-08-11, 11:13 PM
Hoar is a true neutral god of revenge.

Might be a good pick. Kender all got somebody wanting payback, I reckon.

Arbane
2010-08-12, 02:12 AM
Or play a devotee of the God of Natural Selection (True Neutral). The Kender have put off being culled for their abject stupidity for TOO LONG!

Rokurai
2010-08-12, 03:41 AM
there's a much simpler way out of that sort of dilemma: Bluff cannot be used by a player against another player.

never, in any campaign i've played in more than 20 years of gaming, have i EVER allowed "social skills" (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate and the like) to be used by one player against another.

if you're the party rogue and you want to bluff the party druid, well, he's sitting at the table across from you. off you go, bluff him.

it's called ROLE PLAYING.

i've seen examples where it's been allowed and in my experience, it never ends well.

everyone winds up having to max out Sense Motive just to defend themselves against the Party Face and other Bluff-types.

personally, i just will not allow it at my table.

ever.

Well, I did let them play it out, and the rest of the party took about half a session to catch up with him and then proceeded to attempt to beat him down, when the druid interceded, surprisingly enough, on his behalf. Later in the campaign he had lifted (read: I baited him with) many useful things(plot devices), and eventually the BBEG's Artifact Staff(one of his spells required a full-round cast-time and that he set the staff vertically on the ground in front of him). Had to transition the BBEG to lieutenant status for that...

Psyx
2010-08-12, 05:04 AM
"And so you see the Kender..."
"A Kender? I kill it."
"But you're a paladin..."
"Not anymore I'm not. Now I'm a fallen paladin that hunts down Kender."


In a current game we recently discovered a small island as part of an island chain. Scouting and Lay of the Land showed it to be a few miles across and inhabited by small human-looking people. We assumed them to be halflings.

Not really needing anything, we decided that we'd break out the row-boat and investigate. Mainly to get some tasty, tasty halfing pies. And maybe directions.

As we got within a hundred yards of the coastal village, we saw it to be populated with kender, not halflings. With a 'well, they don't make good pies', the row-boat was turned around, and we set sail for somewhere less annoying.

The GM was a little shocked that his plot-hook island was treated with such disdain, but it serves him right for inhabiting it with kender.

FelixG
2010-08-12, 05:16 AM
As we got within a hundred yards of the coastal village, we saw it to be populated with kender, not halflings. With a 'well, they don't make good pies', the row-boat was turned around, and we set sail for somewhere less annoying.

The GM was a little shocked that his plot-hook island was treated with such disdain, but it serves him right for inhabiting it with kender.

haha priceless

Boci
2010-08-12, 05:23 AM
having seen the unholy mess that can happen when Bluff/Diplomacy and the like are allowed between players, i'll go the Third Way thanx and ban the use of such skills between PCs.

Diplomacy and intimidate I can understand, but bluff? Sometimes PCs lie to eachother. If you've got a rogue who steals from his party members and then tries to lie his way out of the situation, the problem is with his actions, not the fact that bluff works on PCs.



This, however, would have been the reasonable answer. That particular lie was so stupid it should have been unbelievable on the face of it. Indeed, no bluff check should be required if the DM judges the lie to be so obviously untrue that nobody would ever buy it, without some kind of extenuating circumstances. You might convince the target that you believe what you're saying, in which case he thinks you're delusional instead of intentionally trying to put one over on him, but he still won't believe the obvious untruth.

Bluff is for plausible lies.

This is how I treat all bluffs. For plausible ones, part of the skill is selling it. But if the kingdom of elves is looking for a group of 4 assassins and the PCs fit the description the party face can say "It wasn't us" and the guards will probably think they are telling the truth. But they will still be taken into custody.

FelixG
2010-08-12, 05:26 AM
Banning bluff is a bad one, because quite simply its impossible when you know for a fact that a person did something meta game to be properly bluffed. Theres no way to do it through RP it has to come down to a roll to see if their character buys the BS.

Intimidate, eh i would say its fine to intimidate another chara, they are shaken from the experience.

Diplomacy is cheese though :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 05:36 AM
Skeletons not having flight notwithstanding. :smallannoyed:


The Bone Creature template (BoVD) doesn't disallow flight though- so you could have an undead dragon that looks like a skeleton, and can fly, but you couldn't have a flying ordinary skeleton of the kind created with Animate Dead.

Grogmir
2010-08-12, 05:55 AM
Me: Can I play a Kobold?
DM: :smallannoyed: No.

Boci
2010-08-12, 05:57 AM
The Bone Creature template (BoVD) doesn't disallow flight though- so you could have an undead dragon that looks like a skeleton, and can fly, but you couldn't have a flying ordinary skeleton of the kind created with Animate Dead.

Couldn't you just buff it with fly?

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 05:59 AM
yes- but if it runs into an antimagic field, it will plummet.

If a creature can fly naturally, to keep natural flight while being skeletal-looking, it needs a different template from Skeleton.

Unless I'm wrong and Bone creatures have supernatural flight too.

Kylarra
2010-08-12, 08:20 AM
Diplomacy doesn't work (by RAW) against PCs anyway.

Vantharion
2010-08-12, 08:37 AM
I did this mostly to prove a point to my DM that he needed to stop ragging on one of my players who he calls a Power Gamer when me being a transmutation specialist is much more OP'd. He thinks the players Force Bow is OP'd because it can hit ghosts and ignores DR. (This is an undead campaign with Super-Evils zombies. Zombies with none of the drawbacks of being a zombie, all the benefits.)

Situation: I had transmuted 20,000 pounds of rock into a 5 pound rock through Shrink Item. I used it to crush two Winter Wolves. GM said that the force of the drop shattered the rock into a bunch of pieces.

Solution: "Okay, the rock is shattered but the magic is still going on. I shrink the boulders back down into dust and scoop it into a empty potion jar. I hand it to the Ranger who has a better strength/dex than me.

Reaction: "NO, just no. You cannot have in instant kill jar of boulders."

Rocks Fall.
Only the DM can have instant kill jar of boulders.

Swooper
2010-08-12, 11:13 AM
The Bone Creature template (BoVD) doesn't disallow flight though- so you could have an undead dragon that looks like a skeleton, and can fly, but you couldn't have a flying ordinary skeleton of the kind created with Animate Dead.
Also, dracoliches. I'm AFB but I'm preeeetty sure they can still fly.

hamishspence
2010-08-12, 12:01 PM
They can- but they vary a lot. Depending on how decayed the dracolich is, it can be anything from nearly indistinguishable from a live dragon, to completely skeletal.

Also, I've checked and neither bone dragons nor dracoliches can fly in an antimagic field.

Dracolich flight is "supernatural"

Bone dragon flight is "magical, as the fly spell, but with the creature's original speed"

Corpse creature (BoVD) flight (if any) is still natural, but it is automatically Clumsy.

Zombie dragon flight is natural but "maneuverability reduced by one step, to a minimum of Clumsy"

And if a Ju-Ju Zombie template is used, (Unapproachable East) it's flight is still natural, and maneuverability is unchanged.

Vitruviansquid
2010-08-12, 12:52 PM
Ah, I just remembered an incident where I shot down a completely good and sensible player idea:

Situation: The players were the Renaissance equivalent of the Ghostbusters, and they're supposed to investigate a prison where everyone is aging incredibly quickly, for some reason. They were specifically told not to try to confront whatever supernatural powers they find there. Of course, things turn south when they discover a pack of ghosts in an old torture room, and soon the party is down a couple of resources and one of them died. Morale is low, but the ghosts weren't responsible for the aging, so they investigate further. Eventually, they find evidence that some manner of fairies (in this setting, powerful, malicious entities) were sucking the time out of people. Long story short, they decide to hide from the fairies, which is what they were told to do, instead of fight the sweet encounter I'd written out.

Solution: "Awww, c'mon, guys, I wrote out this sweet encounter!... I'll give you bonus xp!"

Result: The party bruiser kills about 3/4 of the fairies in a single turn, thanks to insanely good rolling. The rest was cake.

Kylarra
2010-08-12, 02:09 PM
Rocks Fall.
Only the DM can have instant kill jar of boulders.Debatably, it wouldn't work anyway, even if not by direct fiat, since shrink item ends when you activate it the first time, and even if permanencied, it's fair enough to rule that a magic item loses its properties when destroyed.

Ormur
2010-08-12, 08:45 PM
Bluff and and intimidate have been used between players in games I've played in and I actually find it to be the opposite of disruptive since it's most often used by the less scrupulous party members to hide their actions from the good members, thus maintaining the cohesion of the group. If it were to be used to directly harm party members they could always metagame themselves out of it anyway.

In a party of two CN and one NE characters they used bluff to hide the less ethical parts of their schemes and actions towards NPC's from the NG exalted character. The player happily went along with it and even took the gullible flaw, to the point I was almost disappointed with the lack of intra-party tension.

Intimidate was used in another campaign to stop the party members that actually had something in sense motive from taking action against the necromancer in the group in a world where that was very much frowned upon. She had a zombie umber hulk walk inside a box along with the party for at least a week before anybody dared to speak up. My character in particular had the coward flaw and thus never dared challenging the necromancer or even try to find about the moving box. It only managed to postpone the inevitable breakdown but at least it bought the necromancer some time for funny roleplaying.

Nick_mi
2010-08-22, 02:40 PM
My paladins mount is a blink wolf. I have to travel through a continent of demons and corrupted humans to get to a 50 foot tall gate that is just pouring demons out into the world. I want to put all my guys into my bag of holding, and have the blink dog travel either etheral or in other planes and them pop out at the gate.

DM: nope. Great idea, but not happening.