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balistafreak
2010-08-08, 07:14 PM
Gaaaaa! You're falling from a cliff high enough to doom you to the classic 20d6 fall! And you're too low a level to have a constant source of flight! And you forgot to buy a feather token!

But you know Dimensional Hop...

Question: Do teleports allow you affect your velocity/orientation? You might be falling really fast, could a teleport let you negate your velocity or at the very least direct it mostly to the side and slightly up (to maximize the time air resistance will kill your now forward velocity)?

Greenish
2010-08-08, 07:40 PM
Question: Do teleports allow you affect your velocity/orientation?Not covered in the rules. At the very least, you could reduce the distance fallen by teleporting straight down.

iDM
2010-08-08, 07:44 PM
Since you're traveling through every point in the multiverse at the same time while you teleport (this is explained in more detail in the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy) I would think that your momentum would be dissipated across the planes by the spell.

W3bDragon
2010-08-08, 07:46 PM
By RAW, I see nothing mentioned about teleportation affecting your velocity or momentum in any way, as such, it shouldn't. Like Greenish said, if the distance is short enough that a couple of dimension hops will shorten it to less than 20d6 damage, then that's the best you can hope for with that spell.

FelixG
2010-08-08, 07:53 PM
by RAW, if you say dimension door or teleport to land directly on the ground in a standing position, you are not hitting the ground so i would imagine you are not taking falling damage (cant fall if you are already on the ground)

I think if you teleport your velocity is reset back to 0

The Glyphstone
2010-08-08, 07:55 PM
by RAW, if you say dimension door or teleport to land directly on the ground in a standing position, you are not hitting the ground so i would imagine you are not taking falling damage (cant fall if you are already on the ground)

I think if you teleport your velocity is reset back to 0

Or you reappear already in contact with the ground without losing all that velocity, and have your spindly legs pulverized into a gooey smear.

Hope you land on some catgirls, though, they'll break your fall.

lsfreak
2010-08-08, 09:04 PM
I think it causes the least problems to houserule that your velocity resets to match whatever whatever is now supporting your weight. Without it, you get things like teleporting off a galloping horse throws you (painfully) in whichever direction the horse was going, and teleporting onto a moving object causes you to be immediately thrown back off. EDIT: Not to mention completely ridiculous things, like being torn to bloody chunks when you make the mistake of teleporting onto the Atropus moonlet from the planet below.

Faleldir
2010-08-08, 09:08 PM
If your DM is using real-world physics to screw you over, it's only fair to teleport upside-down and try to land on the same cliff.

Milskidasith
2010-08-08, 09:29 PM
The problem with both having your momentum cancelled and keeping the exact momentum is, unless your character is on an unmoving, flat planet, either way he's going to go flying off at hilariously fast speeds in a certain direction. The only way teleportation works is if it automatically makes your velocity something that doesn't kill you every time, although, being magic, now the argument is if your speed is now enough to keep you safe, or enough to keep you safe plus the extra speed from falling.

Another_Poet
2010-08-08, 09:40 PM
I think it causes the least problems to houserule that your velocity resets to match whatever whatever is now supporting your weight. Without it, you get things like teleporting off a galloping horse throws you (painfully) in whichever direction the horse was going, and teleporting onto a moving object causes you to be immediately thrown back off. EDIT: Not to mention completely ridiculous things, like being torn to bloody chunks when you make the mistake of teleporting onto the Atropus moonlet from the planet below.


The problem with both having your momentum cancelled and keeping the exact momentum is, unless your character is on an unmoving, flat planet, either way he's going to go flying off at hilariously fast speeds in a certain direction. The only way teleportation works is if it automatically makes your velocity something that doesn't kill you every time

These. These these.

W3bDragon
2010-08-08, 10:02 PM
The problem with allowing teleportation to reset your velocity is that it adds functionality that the spell specifically doesn't have.

If I was in the DM's shoes, I wouldn't allow it. However... I *might* be persuaded to accept it if someone makes a good case concerning the word "transportation" in the spell description. I have a few ideas of how I would argue it if I wanted a DM to accept it, but I'm still dubious.

Starbuck_II
2010-08-08, 10:07 PM
Or you reappear already in contact with the ground without losing all that velocity, and have your spindly legs pulverized into a gooey smear.

Hope you land on some catgirls, though, they'll break your fall.

That is why you manifest Catfall: always land on feet (plus lessens fall damage).

Greenish
2010-08-08, 10:12 PM
That is why you manifest Catfall: always land on feet (plus lessens fall damage).Ah, that makes sense. Catfall reduces falling damage by summoning a pile of catgirls on which you can fall.

iDM
2010-08-08, 10:19 PM
Ah, that makes sense. Catfall reduces falling damage by summoning a pile of catgirls on which you can fall.

This power has some serious utility outside of combat then.:smallamused: Plus, anytime you needed a weapon, you could have a bunch of whips. Do they come with whips?

mobdrazhar
2010-08-08, 10:31 PM
and prehensile tentacles

iDM
2010-08-08, 10:40 PM
and prehensile tentacles

Cats have prehensile tentacles?

Defiant
2010-08-08, 10:42 PM
If your DM is using real-world physics to screw you over, it's only fair to teleport upside-down and try to land on the same cliff.

Ahahahaha!! That is awesome! :smallbiggrin:

olentu
2010-08-08, 10:45 PM
Leaving aside all the oriental adventures setting specific stuff I don't think that momentum really exists in D&D most of the time.

Faleldir
2010-08-08, 10:59 PM
Cats have prehensile tentacles?
They're actually Half-Displacers.

iDM
2010-08-08, 11:07 PM
They're actually Half-Displacers.

How can you even tell if they're in a pile?

olentu
2010-08-08, 11:40 PM
How can you even tell if they're in a pile?

Which ever of the 1.5 piles you land on has the half displacers.

Sindri
2010-08-09, 12:51 AM
If teleport didn't reset velocity, then (assuming an earth-like planet) any time you went past the horizon you'd be going a different direction than the ground was spinning at. Going to the opposite side of the planet would put you at ~3,300 KPH the wrong direction.

mobdrazhar
2010-08-09, 12:59 AM
Cats have prehensile tentacles?

no but catgirls do

Peregrine
2010-08-09, 01:25 AM
So, the general consensus is: If you ignore real-world physics, you have no way (other than speculation on RAI, or DM fiat) to answer the question. If you employ real-world physics, there's a good chance you'll screw up every ordinary use of teleportation in the process. (In addition to imperilling catgirls.) Right?

It seems to me we're considering these cases: Teleport from a stationary, standing position to somewhere else on the same planet. You should end up in a stationary, standing position. Teleport from a stationary, standing position to a different planet. You should end up in a stationary, standing position. Teleport from a fast-moving object (like a horse) to the ground or to an object moving at a different speed or direction. You should wind up stationary or safely moving with the object, respectively. Or should you? Me, I'd rule that teleporting off a horse is the same as falling off a horse; 1d6 falling damage (and thus your momentum is abstracted away) unless you succeed on a Ride check. And of course, teleport from mid-air while plummeting towards the ground. You should... what?

("Stationary" in all cases is relative to the ground beneath your feet. It could be replaced with "moving at a safe pace under your own power".)

Hmm. How about this? Teleportation preserves your momentum relative to the dominant gravitational pull at your origin and destination.

So, when you stand still and teleport onto the same planet, you remain standing still relative to that planet. When you're moving across the surface while teleporting, you wind up moving across the surface at the same rate, as if you'd jumped off the horse. When you teleport to a different planet, you end up standing still (or moving) relative to that planet in the same way you were relative to this planet.

And if you're falling towards the ground, when you teleport, you're still falling towards the ground. Done. :smallbiggrin:

Cespenar
2010-08-09, 04:13 AM
I don't see any rules concerning velocity and acceleration in D&D, and the falling subject creates its own specific rules instead of establishing said physics concepts, so there's no such thing as conservation of anything according to RAW.

So, the teleport line of spells/effects would effectively 'reset' your v and a, instead of conserving them.

And the fact that it's magic means that no choice would be 'insensible' too, if you'd care about that.

Peregrine
2010-08-09, 05:10 AM
I don't see any rules concerning velocity and acceleration in D&D, and the falling subject creates its own specific rules instead of establishing said physics concepts, so there's no such thing as conservation of anything according to RAW.

All true so far.


So, the teleport line of spells/effects would effectively 'reset' your v and a, instead of conserving them.

This doesn't follow from the above, however. This is not listed as a property of teleportation. RAW never touches on whether teleportation could save you from falling. Both "yes" and "no" are defensible, though "yes" certainly makes the spells more powerful.


And the fact that it's magic means that no choice would be 'insensible' too, if you'd care about that.

Even with magic, the "insensible" choice is the one that breaks willing suspension of disbelief.

FelixG
2010-08-09, 05:19 AM
All true so far.



This doesn't follow from the above, however. This is not listed as a property of teleportation. RAW never touches on whether teleportation could save you from falling. Both "yes" and "no" are defensible, though "yes" certainly makes the spells more powerful.


By Raw:



Falling Damage

The basic rule is simple: 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6.


Simply, you cast teleport, you teleport and are now standing on solid ground, you are no longer falling. your effective falling distance is 0. As RAW makes no mention of velocity you would logically take no falling damage, as again, you are falling 0 feet.

Edit: or if you don't mind using two spells, and your GM is claiming velocity for some reason is carried over, just cast it, appear upside down, wait till you reach the apex of your new path, then teleport down when your relative velocity reaches as close to 0 as you can get it. :P

squishycube
2010-08-09, 05:29 AM
It seem to me that the last two posters are misunderstanding each other. If this is not the case, please ignore the following.

Case 1. You have fallen 200+ feet and are still some way from the ground. You cast teleport and choose the ground directly below as the destination. Does this teleport cancel the speed you already had when you casted the spell. Posts in this thread suggest problems for both answers.

Case 2. You have just started falling, say 10 feet. It is still a long way down and you cast teleport to get to the ground below. As you do not actually fall the distance travelled via teleport you do not get damage for this (but you do get the 1d6 for the 10 feet you did fall, or not, depending on your view of case 1). I believe everyone in this thread thinks teleport should work like this.

Tyrmatt
2010-08-09, 05:43 AM
From a real world physics point of view, momentum is always conserved. And it's not the height of the drop that kills you. It's the speed of the impact. You could fall miles and not have a scratch if you were falling at a speed of 1mph. That's kinda the impetus behind Feather Fall.

I personally would rule that dimension hop would let you miss out on some of the acceleration you were building up to terminal velocity. It wouldn't stop all the damage but it would lessen it considerably from 20d6.

licidy
2010-08-09, 05:46 AM
From a DM standpoint, almost all magic can be abusive if given too much power. Teleportation spells are one of the cases where almost every example of it past the Core books is overpowered. This is especially true if a player wants to take the Conjurer variant from PHBII that allows immediate action teleporting... sigh...

Having dealt with this situation before I have ruled and will continue to rule that teleportation does not slow momentum at all, although it can be used to shorten the distance falling via teleporting directly down. Additionally, it can allow you to land on your feet rather than prone since teleportation spells generally allow you to re-orient yourself with relation to a surface.

My reasoning is this: Magic is supposed to be something that requires massive amounts of concentration, and mishaps with magic are supposed to occur from time to time (although there are very few chances for it in Core). For teleportation spells, it thus becomes imperative for the caster/recipients to stand perfectly still while the magic takes effect (similar to the teleporters in Star Trek) or risk such problems as momentum or even disrupting of the spell itself if a character won't stop moving around.

Tyrmatt
2010-08-09, 06:16 AM
From a real world physics point of view, momentum is always conserved. And it's not the height of the drop that kills you. It's the speed of the impact. You could fall miles and not have a scratch if you were falling at a speed of 1mph. That's kinda the impetus behind Feather Fall.

I personally would rule that dimension hop would let you miss out on some of the acceleration you were building up to terminal velocity. It wouldn't stop all the damage but it would lessen it considerably from 20d6.

Milskidasith
2010-08-09, 06:47 AM
From a catgirl killing perspective, any teloportation over even moderate distance would send you flying at ridiculous speed.

panaikhan
2010-08-09, 07:38 AM
Trying to shove the laws of physics to one side for a moment....

Feather Fall, a first level spell, can stop you taking falling damage.
Any translocation-capable spell of a higher level, should at least be capable of this.

If not, I would allow the caster to choose the destination point in three dimentions not only for placement, but for orientation.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 08:00 AM
If teleports don't affect momentum, then this is what you do. Requires two 'ports readied.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/billyadavies/Untitled-1.jpg

You teleport so that your travelling upwards, and at the moment you are at rest and about to fall again, you port to the ground

Gravitron5000
2010-08-09, 08:19 AM
If teleports don't affect momentum, then this is what you do. Requires two 'ports readied.

You teleport so that your travelling upwards, and at the moment you are at rest and about to fall again, you port to the ground

Changing the direction of your momentum is affecting it. In catgirl killing terms you would effectively be expending twice the energy of setting your momentum to zero to accomplish this.

Quietus
2010-08-09, 08:29 AM
Momentum is stopped by a level 1 spell - so long as some relatively equal (or greater) resource is expended, why should we care about momentum? From a game balance perspective, I don't care whether someone's casting Feather Fall, Dimension Hop, Dimensional Door, or Teleport - all represent a minimum expenditure of some measure of arcane power, the least of which is also the baseline. All things being equal, I'm okay with someone casting Teleport in a sticky situation to replicate Feather Fall, yes?

Alcopop
2010-08-09, 08:46 AM
If teleports don't affect momentum, then this is what you do. Requires two 'ports readied.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/billyadavies/Untitled-1.jpg

You teleport so that your travelling upwards, and at the moment you are at rest and about to fall again, you port to the ground

http://i35.tinypic.com/9jg4e8.jpg

Fixed

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 08:51 AM
Changing the direction of your momentum is affecting it. In catgirl killing terms you would effectively be expending twice the energy of setting your momentum to zero to accomplish this.

No it's not. Think about it. You are magically repositioning yourself in the world, upside down. If this doesn't affect your momentum, then as you are flipped, so is it. It works like that in portal.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 08:53 AM
http://i35.tinypic.com/9jg4e8.jpg

Fixed

well played. Despite myself, I lol'd.

The idea came from my Mage the Awakening character anyway, where physics were in use, and magic circumvented them.

Person_Man
2010-08-09, 08:59 AM
Falling is instantaneous. IIRC Dimensional Hop is a Standard Action. Thus you fall before you can take your action.

Also, in 3.5, rules do what they say they do and nothing else, unless your DM chooses to rule 0 it. For example, even though a Wizard is capable of casting Fireball, he cannot expend the same spell slot to light a cigarette or a camp fire. Even if he's fighting in a forest and casts Fireball on an enemy wrapped in paper and covered in oil, he does not catch on fire. He only takes the Fire damage provided by the spell, and nothing else. Now, your DM could easily choose to ignore such restrictions. I often do. But by RAW, you can't use things to do anything but their explicit effects.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 09:02 AM
Falling is instantaneous. IIRC Dimensional Hop is a Standard Action. Thus you fall before you can take your action.

Also, in 3.5, rules do what they say they do and nothing else, unless your DM chooses to rule 0 it. For example, even though a Wizard is capable of casting Fireball, he cannot expend the same spell slot to light a cigarette or a camp fire. Even if he's fighting in a forest and casts Fireball on an enemy wrapped in paper and covered in oil, he does not catch on fire. He only takes the Fire damage provided by the spell, and nothing else. Now, your DM could easily choose to ignore such restrictions. I often do. But by RAW, you can't use things to do anything but their explicit effects.

True. It is, however, a very common houserule to allow all of those things to happen. Given the context of the discussion implies that casting while falling is allowed, then there shouldn't be a problem discussing as if it is.

Peregrine
2010-08-09, 09:09 AM
Simply, you cast teleport, you teleport and are now standing on solid ground, you are no longer falling. your effective falling distance is 0. As RAW makes no mention of velocity you would logically take no falling damage, as again, you are falling 0 feet.

That's one way to look at it, but not the only way. The problem is that you've still fallen some distance before casting. (You probably fell some 150 feet in the time it took to cast the spell.) Sure, you can wipe off the next 400 feet that you would otherwise have fallen, but you have met the RAW conditions for taking falling damage: (a) you fell some distance greater than 10 ft., then (b) you touched down on a solid surface.

RAW doesn't tell us whether a teleport in between these two events stops falling damage or not. The fact that you fell no more distance after the teleport is irrelevant. If I may be forgiven the reductio ad absurdam, you could subsitute "fireball" for "teleport". Or "sneeze". Or just "rotate feet-down". Let's try that last one.


Simply, you rotate feet-down, you land and are now standing on solid ground, you are no longer falling. your effective falling distance is 0. As RAW makes no mention of velocity you would logically take no falling damage, as again, you are falling 0 feet.

You fell 0 feet after some arbitrary action, but RAW doesn't say whether any action (except feather fall) can cancel the prior distance's falling damage.


No it's not. Think about it. You are magically repositioning yourself in the world, upside down. If this doesn't affect your momentum, then as you are flipped, so is it. It works like that in portal.

I quite agree with your logic; Gravitron5000 has it wrong in spite of his/her name. :smallwink:

But it's still not the only way to handle conservation of momentum. The "flip upside-down" trick assumes your velocity remains constant relative to yourself (that is, your own orientation). Saying that it remains constant relative to the pull of gravity would mean you still fall down even if you reorient yourself.

It's not the way it has to work, but if the DM wants teleportation to not cancel a fall, then it's a logical explanation that would shut up anyone trying to argue the point with physics. :smallsmile:

EDIT:
Falling is instantaneous. IIRC Dimensional Hop is a Standard Action. Thus you fall before you can take your action.

Hmm. I'm sure there are rules somewhere that say how fast you fall in a round. But all I can find right at this moment are the rules for the specific case where a flyer stalls. These may or may not mean that falling isn't instantaneous for non-flyers too.


If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.


Also, in 3.5, rules do what they say they do and nothing else, unless your DM chooses to rule 0 it. For example, even though a Wizard is capable of casting Fireball, he cannot expend the same spell slot to light a cigarette or a camp fire. Even if he's fighting in a forest and casts Fireball on an enemy wrapped in paper and covered in oil, he does not catch on fire. He only takes the Fire damage provided by the spell, and nothing else. Now, your DM could easily choose to ignore such restrictions. I often do. But by RAW, you can't use things to do anything but their explicit effects.


Actually... :smallwink:


The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 09:25 AM
I quite agree with your logic; Gravitron5000 has it wrong in spite of his/her name.

But it's still not the only way to handle conservation of momentum. The "flip upside-down" trick assumes your velocity remains constant relative to yourself (that is, your own orientation). Saying that it remains constant relative to the pull of gravity would mean you still fall down even if you reorient yourself.

It's not the way it has to work, but if the DM wants teleportation to not cancel a fall, then it's a logical explanation that would shut up anyone trying to argue the point with physics.

Ahhh, that's certainly a good point. As I said, this was a MtA idea first, and the way our DM ruled space magic worked was indeed relative to the user. It would be difficult to say what would happen irl, as I don't think there's any real way for something to instantly change position like that, theoretical particle physics aside.

Of course, the momentum being relative to the direction of gravitational pull has some interesting consequences - If you try the flipping thing, then all of the pull on your body is instantly reversed, which probably hurts a bit.

Also, terribly sorry FelixG old bean - I realise now you made exactly the same point as me a page earlier.

W3bDragon
2010-08-09, 09:29 AM
But by RAW, you can't use things to do anything but their explicit effects.

Agreed. I remember reading somewhere (I believe it was 2nd Ed DMG) that magic is NOT adaptable like technology and should not be treated as such. Magic is inherently stupid. It does what its designed to do and not a whit more or less. Keeping that in mind helps a lot in adjudicating spell effects that are not explicitly stated.

Example: Featherfall could be interpreted to mean that a medium creature under the effect of featherfall is almost weightless and could be carried by a Str 3 character. However, since featherfall is a spell, and the spell's explicit effect is to change your falling speed and nothing else, then a Str 3 character would not be able to carry a medium creature under the effect of featherfall.

The same can be said about teleportation. Its effect is to change your location, and that's what it does, nothing else.

Cyrion
2010-08-09, 09:29 AM
How long is a standard action? If we count it as half a round (3 seconds) then in the time it takes someone to cast a standard action teleport he or she will have fallen 144 feet. A standard teleport is only good for long falls.

If you want a game mechanic compromise, how about the wizard has to make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the distance fallen in 10's of feet? A success results in a teleportation that lands the wizard safely; a failure results in the Wizard still carrying some of the speed from the fall- take 1d6 damage per point by which the check was missed.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 09:33 AM
Agreed. I remember reading somewhere (I believe it was 2nd Ed DMG) that magic is NOT adaptable like technology and should not be treated as such. Magic is inherently stupid. It does what its designed to do and not a whit more or less. Keeping that in mind helps a lot in adjudicating spell effects that are not explicitly stated.

Example: Featherfall could be interpreted to mean that a medium creature under the effect of featherfall is almost weightless and could be carried by a Str 3 character. However, since featherfall is a spell, and the spell's explicit effect is to change your falling speed and nothing else, then a Str 3 character would not be able to carry a medium creature under the effect of featherfall.

The same can be said about teleportation. Its effect is to change your location, and that's what it does, nothing else.

Yes, but that's very vague, and doesn't suggest either way whether it affects momentum or not.

iDM
2010-08-09, 09:53 AM
But doesn't the inertia of your molecules stay oriented the same direction as your molecules? Gravity causes the fall, but the buildup of inertia in the molecules themselves is what makes you fall faster, right? So if you teleported upside-down, the inertia inside of your molecules would keep you in motion until an outside force (i.e., gravity) acted upon you, pulling you back to Earth (or Toril, or Eberron, whatever).

Bharg
2010-08-09, 09:54 AM
Just aim with your teleport for a deep pool of water, a big hill of sand or snow, a hay wagon or a pillow factory that 's not about to get demolished

W3bDragon
2010-08-09, 10:00 AM
Yes, but that's very vague, and doesn't suggest either way whether it affects momentum or not.

Well, lemmie give some scenarios:
You're playing with a yoyo when someone teleports you. Does the yoyo drop to the ground once the teleport is complete?

You're playing with a hula hoop when someone teleports you. Does the hula drop to the ground?

Someone shoots an arrow past you. As its flying by, you reach out and touch the shaft while casting Teleport Object to teleport the arrow 5 feet away. Does the arrow simply drop or continue to travel?


In all these cases, as with the case in the OP, teleportation is capable of occurring without affecting your momentum or momentum of objects you're carrying. Since it can work without needing to adjust your momentum, it simply won't adjust it.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 10:00 AM
But doesn't the inertia of your molecules stay oriented the same direction as your molecules? Gravity causes the fall, but the buildup of inertia in the molecules themselves is what makes you fall faster, right? So if you teleported upside-down, the inertia inside of your molecules would keep you in motion until an outside force (i.e., gravity) acted upon you, pulling you back to Earth (or Toril, or Eberron, whatever).

That's the science I was waiting for. :smallbiggrin:

Edit:


Well, lemmie give some scenarios:

* You're playing with a yoyo when someone teleports you. Does the yoyo drop to the ground once the teleport is complete?
* You're playing with a hula hoop when someone teleports you. Does the hula drop to the ground?
* Someone shoots an arrow past you. As its flying by, you reach out and touch the shaft while casting Teleport Object to teleport the arrow 5 feet away. Does the arrow simply drop or continue to travel?


In all these cases, as with the case in the OP, teleportation is capable of occurring without affecting your momentum or momentum of objects you're carrying. Since it can work without needing to adjust your momentum, it simply won't adjust it.

I'm not sure your points valid. It can work that way, yes. It can also work the other way. Neither are implied by the text.

balistafreak
2010-08-09, 10:01 AM
Falls of greater than a certain distance are not instantaneous, and will let you take a turn to try and do... something. I can't remember if the magic number is 150 or 200 feet, though, from rest.

Dimension Hop is a swift action, 1st level Psychic Warrior power. As a swift action, I thought it would be reasonable to use "near instantly" when near the ground. It has the disadvantage of having an extremely short range, however.

Why does everyone assume that one needs to teleport completely upside down or straight to the ground to avoid harm? Surely teleporting sideways or at a slight upward angle would be possible as well, if not as safe. With Dimension Hop's short distance, it is doubtful one could immediately teleport back to the ground after losing all upward momentum using the "upside-down, right-side up" trick.

Also, I love how this has spawned a physics monstrosity. Keep up the discussion, and we may have a thread worthy of the faCLANG

WHAT THE F--- WAS THAT?

qcontinuum
2010-08-09, 10:08 AM
If teleportation-style magic doesn't change velocity/momentum, any travel from the Elemental Planes of Air or Water becomes rather dangerous... :smallamused:


I've always found that RAW doesn't mix well with real world physics. Allowing a teleportation spell to serve in a pinch as a feather fall (assuming the falling distance was enough to allow part of a round to pass) doesn't seem game-breaking to me. Especially because if you're worried about this, you're either probably not a caster or are low enough level that casters aren't yet bah-roken (given the lack of flight magic).

That said, if you're casting this as a prepared spell or from a scroll I'd probably require a Concentration check for Vigorous Motion (DC 10).


Btw, in 3 seconds, starting from rest, you fall 144ft. In 6 seconds you fall 577 feet.

Gravitron5000
2010-08-09, 12:11 PM
I quite agree with your logic; Gravitron5000 has it wrong in spite of his/her name. :smallwink:

But it's still not the only way to handle conservation of momentum. The "flip upside-down" trick assumes your velocity remains constant relative to yourself (that is, your own orientation). Saying that it remains constant relative to the pull of gravity would mean you still fall down even if you reorient yourself.


I have to disagree with your disagreement, but only in principle. It really depends on where you attach your frame of reference. From the ground's point of view, you have broken the law of conservation of linear momentum from that trick. But since you are breaking other laws anyway I guess you might allow it. I really like that law though :smallfrown:

However, changing your point of reference to yourself seems a reasonable thing to do since it is your point of reference.



... lolStuff ...


Touché :smallbiggrin:

Peregrine
2010-08-09, 12:23 PM
However, changing your point of reference to yourself seems a reasonable thing to do since it is your point of reference.

Exactly. From the ground's point of view, you have indeed changed velocity, which if not the result of magic would mean you had instantly undergone about twice the force of simply stopping (= hitting the ground), as you said.

But from the individual's point of view, the universe just instantaneously shifted. They're still falling "down", but Euclidean geometry just got firmly told to look the other way, and suddenly things that were "down" are somewhere else. That's the "thinking with portals" video game allusion of the thread's title, and it's what people suggesting teleporting upside down are expecting.

And may I point out that "from the ground's point of view" is my preferred way of handling this whole question? I disagreed with your method of refuting the "flip upside down trick", but your POV is also my preferred way of handling it. :smallsmile:

Tiki Snakes
2010-08-09, 03:52 PM
Well, lemmie give some scenarios:
You're playing with a yoyo when someone teleports you. Does the yoyo drop to the ground once the teleport is complete?

You're playing with a hula hoop when someone teleports you. Does the hula drop to the ground?

Someone shoots an arrow past you. As its flying by, you reach out and touch the shaft while casting Teleport Object to teleport the arrow 5 feet away. Does the arrow simply drop or continue to travel?


In all these cases, as with the case in the OP, teleportation is capable of occurring without affecting your momentum or momentum of objects you're carrying. Since it can work without needing to adjust your momentum, it simply won't adjust it.

Okay.
*The Yoyo continues Yoyoing normally if it goes with you. If it doesn't go with you, then it falls just as if the string had been cut.
*Same as the yoyo. If it goes with you, it continues Yoyoing, if you leave it behind, it drops normally.
*The Arrow wizzes off from where it is ported to. Assumedly pointed back the other way so that it should hit the archer, I'd have thought.

If you are falling from space and teleport to the ground, you land normally and are fine.
If you teleport to the back of a gigantic flying creature as it tries to escape then you land happily on it's back. If it's a smaller creature, balance and/or related checks may be required for you to not fall off.
If you are on the top of a lightning-train and you teleport off to avoid a low bridge, you appear where you teleported to and are not flung across the room, reguardless of whether you teleport to the ground nearby or back inside the train.

I don't think those answers are even consistent, scientifically speaking. So, basically, I guess what I'm saying is screw the science. The laws of Drama take precedence.

Tyndmyr
2010-08-09, 04:08 PM
If teleporting does not reset momentum, etc, and worlds are round, as stated or implied in many settings, then long distance teleportations along the N-S axis will generally change your distance from the axis of the earth's core. In other words, your momentum.

This results in you being flung along the east west axis at ridiculous speed until you splatter.

If your DM accepts this interpretation of reality, be very cautious how you teleport, but remember that "teleport object" is your friend. In addition, since you now have a free form of thrust, all you need are crude wings to have flight.

Better yet, if they accept that you do not immediately adjust to local frame of reference, get an immovable rod, and point out that when engaged, it too will not adjust to the local frame of reference. Calculate for rotation, orbital path, galaxy rotatation and drift, and make sure the enemy, not you, is downstream from where the immovable rod moves at a significant fraction of lightspeed.

Keld Denar
2010-08-09, 04:19 PM
Yea, its gotta be relative to whatever you are porting onto, otherwise those House Orion guys are totally boned. I'm mean, they have a whole PrC dedicated to teleporting around the Lightning Rail, from car to car and from ground to car and car to ground. You'd get some massive whiplash porting onto a moving Lightning Rail from the ground and porting from a moving Lightning Rail car to the ground outside of it would send you hurtling forward, possibly into a collumn or similar structure. I know they call them train terminals, but that's rediculous.

If it matters, the one DM I've asked about it OKed it for my PC to jump into a 50' deep pit, porting the last 10' with Anklets of Translocation to negate all of the falling damage. Its using resources to acomplish something that isn't outside of the cost of the use of that resource.

Corras
2010-08-09, 04:41 PM
Which makes me wonder what would happen if you fall for 200 feet, and then cast fly. If you interpret it as stopping your fall in midair and let you "hover", it would probably hurt alot since it would pretty much amount to having hit a solid surface.

Keld Denar
2010-08-09, 04:48 PM
That reminds me of a conversation from the TV show Big Bang Theory about one of the Superman movies.

Something about Lois Lane falling and accelerating at 9.81 m/s/s landing on Superman's man-of-steel arms, and being promptly sliced into 3 roughly equal and very messy parts by the sudden change in momentum.

Wouldn't that make the outcome of the movie much more different. My bets would be on Superman turning to alcoholism to bury the shame he feels. Yea, that would be epic.

olentu
2010-08-09, 05:02 PM
That reminds me of a conversation from the TV show Big Bang Theory about one of the Superman movies.

Something about Lois Lane falling and accelerating at 9.81 m/s/s landing on Superman's man-of-steel arms, and being promptly sliced into 3 roughly equal and very messy parts by the sudden change in momentum.

Wouldn't that make the outcome of the movie much more different. My bets would be on Superman turning to alcoholism to bury the shame he feels. Yea, that would be epic.

Didn't something like that happen to spider-man that one time with that whole drop off the bridge thing. Eh I don't really remember it well but I think it was something like that.

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 05:08 PM
Didn't something like that happen to spider-man that one time with that whole drop off the bridge thing. Eh I don't really remember it well but I think it was something like that.

Gwen Stacy snapping, yeah. And I'm sure they started explaining that Supes drops with people when he catches them, decelerating.

Keld Denar
2010-08-09, 05:14 PM
Yea, but the distance he had to decelerate her was almost zero. Even being generous and giving him a WHOLE FOOT, she'd still break into 3 pieces. I don't care who you are, falling at terminal velocity and braking to a halt in ~1 foot will generate enough impulse to rip you apart, and thats not including the point force loading. SPLAT! I could probably run some simulation calcs for comparison, but thats a lot of work...

Project_Mayhem
2010-08-09, 05:27 PM
Probably used his superphysicsbreaking. :smalltongue:

Yes, your right. It is merely a vague handwave