Roleplaying a Fallen Paladin

[DabblerWizard]

Not to be confused with the "Fallen Paladin" thread about 3.5 mechanics, this thread is about the roleplay possibilities of a fallen paladin (especially in 4e where there is a lack of alignment restrictions).

Below is a part of my post from that previous thread. Feel free to share your thoughts on the RP value of fallen paladins, and or comment on my statements below.


I think the RP value for this kind of character, can be entirely satisfying.

How they turn out can have something to do with why they fell, whether because they committed an "evil" act, and "unlawful" act, both at once, or "neither" and fell because of some in-game deity-with-tummy-ache technicality.

- Consider a paladin with a twisted sense of "benevolence". He/She believes that when "ends justify means", it becomes okay to commit "evil" acts as long as there is a "good" outcome.

- Now compare the above paladin with one that views "law" very abstractly. This ex-paladin believes that there are universal / "natural laws" that supersede the laws put down by mortal rulers, or laws upheld by deities, perhaps.

The above two ex-paladins will find the LG state of mind entirely untenable for different reasons... and there is much RP joy to be found with their varying perspectives and potential moral development over time.

[Marnath]

I haven't played 4e, so i can't speak for that. But in 3.5 you can go a few routes. 1) you can become totally irrational "the Gods HAVE to take me back if i prove myself!:smallfurious:" like miko. 2) you can play the person who regrets what they did and is on the road to seeking redemption. 3) you can have the fallen pally scorn the Gods who cast him down, and live as an agnostic(not an athiest, because the Gods in a D&D campaign are empirically proven, so no sense in disbelieving them) mercenary who fights for coin. Maintaining loyalty to the forces of good is optional.

If i got athiest and agnostic mixed up, sorry.

[Greenish]

I haven't played 4e, so i can't speak for that. But in 3.5 you can go a few routes. 1) you can become totally irrational "the Gods HAVE to take me back if i prove myself!:smallfurious:" like miko. 2) you can play the person who regrets what they did and is on the road to seeking redemption. 3) you can have the fallen pally scorn the Gods who cast him down, and live as an agnostic(not an athiest, because the Gods in a D&D campaign are empirically proven, so no sense in disbelieving them) mercenary who fights for coin. Maintaining loyalty to the forces of good is optional.

If i got athiest and agnostic mixed up, sorry.Agnostic believes that the existence of gods can't be known. Contact Other Plane and Commune beg to differ.

Someone who knows that gods do exist, but doesn't think them worth worshipping would be, hmm, something-theist?

[Marnath]

Oh, really? Hmm, i always get those two confused, and i'm too lazy to google it. Never the less, you get what i meant.

[The Glyphstone]

Antitheist?

[Marillion]

I haven't played 4e, so i can't speak for that. But in 3.5 you can go a few routes. 1) you can become totally irrational "the Gods HAVE to take me back if i prove myself!:smallfurious:" like miko. 2) you can play the person who regrets what they did and is on the road to seeking redemption. 3) you can have the fallen pally scorn the Gods who cast him down, and live as an agnostic(not an athiest, because the Gods in a D&D campaign are empirically proven, so no sense in disbelieving them) mercenary who fights for coin. Maintaining loyalty to the forces of good is optional.

If i got athiest and agnostic mixed up, sorry.

Although atheist is typically used to mean "without God(s)", it can also mean "without religion", that is, you believe (or know, in a D&D campaign) that gods exist, but choose not to worship any of them. Agnostic, on the other hand, means "without knowledge", meaning that an agnostic is equally unwilling to say that the gods exist as he is to say that they don't because he simply doesn't know and can't prove it one way or the other.

Also, I'd add path 4) the paladin becomes bitter and broken, overcome with guilt and thus unable to redeem himself.

[Marnath]

Let's get back on topic before someone turns this into a flamewar. What race/age/gender/etc is this paladin you're asking about OP? Or is this more of a general thought experiment? The culture the PC is from will dramatically influence how they react after having been cast down.

*edit I like 4), it's kind of similar to my 3) but different enough to be cool.

[Vitruviansquid]

1. Maybe the paladin doesn't even want to be a paladin any more. He finds the rigorous extremism that the paladin code demands sometimes does more bad than good. In essence, he mellows out a little.

2. The paladin decides the paladin'ing life isn't for him and retires to pursue a more pedestrian career. Eventually, some emergency may call him back to arms.

[Marnath]

1. Maybe the paladin doesn't even want to be a paladin any more. He finds the rigorous extremism that the paladin code demands sometimes does more bad than good. In essence, he mellows out a little.

2. The paladin decides the paladin'ing life isn't for him and retires to pursue a more pedestrian career. Eventually, some emergency may call him back to arms.


1) mmmm, i like it. Paladin falls but only as a sort of technicality.

2) does he even fall if he just retires? I wouldn't think so...

[Vitruviansquid]

2) does he even fall if he just retires? I wouldn't think so...

I mean he falls, and then retires.

[Urpriest]

In 4e, you can even adopt many of these perspectives while still using your paladin abilities. Use your magic with regret, or let the radiant damage be the radiance of your fury at the gods, or seek atonement with your gods-given powers, etc.

[kieza]

In 4e, you can even adopt many of these perspectives while still using your paladin abilities. Use your magic with regret, or let the radiant damage be the radiance of your fury at the gods, or seek atonement with your gods-given powers, etc.

Did anyone else envision Kratos when they read this? Fallen warrior of good, former servant of the gods, RADIANT FURY AT THE GODS.

[Marnath]

Did anyone else envision Kratos when they read this? Fallen warrior of good, former servant of the gods, RADIANT FURY AT THE GODS.

Isn't part of Kratos' success the fact that he is also a god?

[Kylarra]

It's a pretty common trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FallenHero).

Obligatory trope warning.

[hamishspence]

1. Maybe the paladin doesn't even want to be a paladin any more. He finds the rigorous extremism that the paladin code demands sometimes does more bad than good. In essence, he mellows out a little.

2. The paladin decides the paladin'ing life isn't for him and retires to pursue a more pedestrian career. Eventually, some emergency may call him back to arms.

I think the Caves of Ice Forgotten Realms book has an ex-paladin a bit like this- when his god dies in the Avatar crisis, he "mellows out a little" and so, when his god comes back to life, he doesn't notice, since he's shifted just enough from the Code.

He's still a decent, LG adventurer- but not a paladin any more.

[Rokurai]

I haven't seen the "Duped Relentless Zealot" option yet.

The paladin does what he thinks is right, and does it in such a way as to fall. What he did is not good, but the paladin does not/is incapable of seeing how this is wrong, and would do the same thing again given the opportunity. The paladin, in his zealotry, does not realize he has fallen, and attributes any shortcomings on the end of his divine powers as a "test from the gods to prove his devotion to the cause of good." Along the way the paladin's powers return, but are either from another god of good and righteousness that sees the paladin's view as appropriate, or from an infernal source that seeks to corrupt the paladin bit by bit, without the paladin ever realizing his descent.

[hamishspence]

Michael Ambrose in Tome of Magic is a pretty good example of this- fallen all the way to Blackguard- still thinks he's a Good paladin and the gods are testing him by taking his powers.

[Xefas]

The paladin code is that they "...must maintain a Lawful Good alignment and vow never to commit an act of evil." and that they "...must always respect legitimate authority, act honorably (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc), help people in need, and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

That actually leaves a lot of leeway.

I had an NPC Paladin once who was the typical pure and righteous Paladin up through his early adult years at his cloister and the surrounding areas, but once he was sent away and got out adventuring, the temptations of the road away from home were too great. He started regularly getting ****-faced drunk and sleeping around between adventures. This isn't specifically covered in the code of conduct, and he balanced out the chaotic behavior with more lawful behavior such as - never lying, never cheating, always yielding to legitimate authority, such that his alignment never turned away from Lawful Good.

The twist being that this behavior wasn't at all what caused him to fall (which, at this point in his story, the PCs were expecting). While he was stopped in one town, a raiding party of orcs and ogres swept in to sack it. He wasn't strong enough to take them on and knew it. Even though innocent people were dying around him, he didn't even try to save them, because he knew there wasn't anything he could do. He fled, and was later contacted by a Celestial acting as his conscience, telling him that he'd done wrong and needed to go atone. He disagreed, and argued that no mortal should be asked to sacrifice himself for just an ideal and no tangible benefit, and refused to atone.

So, in the end, he didn't "fall", because he never performed an act of evil. He just performed a neutral act of self-preservation and never atoned for it (though the option was open to him).

When the PCs ran into him, he was running a small chapel to Heironeous in an out-of-the-way town with the leftover money from his adventuring days, generally helping out the townsfolk. Never lost his faith, never lost his alignment, never lost his ideals. He just didn't want to die.

[Tyrmatt]

I think all the basic options have been covered here.
You've got
1. The descent into evil/madness.
2. The reckless penitent.
3. The disillusioned servant.

The other option is the paladin who consciously makes himself fall due to some act that he was expected to do either by liege lord or deity even if it's horrific. This leads to his deity stripping him of privilege and power for disobeying a direct order. I see a nice quest to find a new and "better" deity for the paladin after that.

[hamishspence]

I like the approach in the novel Tymora's Luck- where the paladin consciously chooses to disobey their deity because what the deity is doing (destroying a good and an evil deity against their will, in order to resurrect their neutral progenitor) is wrong.

While he says "How dare you disobey me and risk falling from my grace?" he does end up realizing that the paladin was right- and doesn't deprive her of her powers.

In the 3rd party splatbook Quintessenial Paladin 2, the fallen paladin Abaddon claims that his enemies took advantage of his code to destroy everything he cared for: "I never broke the code until I had nothing left except the code"- he becomes a blackguard, unites a great army of evil- and then destroys them all. Because he was evil when he began to destroy them, many of their powers don't work on him.

[drakir_nosslin]

It's a pretty common trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FallenHero).

Obligatory trope warning.

And once again I fail to heed the warning. Three minutes later I've opened 7 tvtropes links and are completely stuck. 35 minutes later I reluctantly shut down the computer and go home. It's a drug and nothing else...

[Marnath]

I haven't seen the "Duped Relentless Zealot" option yet.

The paladin does what he thinks is right, and does it in such a way as to fall. What he did is not good, but the paladin does not/is incapable of seeing how this is wrong, and would do the same thing again given the opportunity. The paladin, in his zealotry, does not realize he has fallen, and attributes any shortcomings on the end of his divine powers as a "test from the gods to prove his devotion to the cause of good." Along the way the paladin's powers return, but are either from another god of good and righteousness that sees the paladin's view as appropriate, or from an infernal source that seeks to corrupt the paladin bit by bit, without the paladin ever realizing his descent.

I mentioned this in the second post......:smallsigh:
I didn't spell it out like you, true, but i did say "like miko" and that should be explanation enough for OoTS readers.

[awa]

i personally like the fallen paladin who is still lawful good just not lawful good enough to be a paladin. I'm always bugged by how quickly most permanently fallen paladins jump to blackguard.

[Starbuck_II]

Seeing as normal Paladins don't have Dieties to keep powers, why all the diety talk?
It is the powers of Good itself that fuels the Powers in the PHB.
Dieties are optional.


i personally like the fallen paladin who is still lawful good just not lawful good enough to be a paladin. I'm always bugged by how quickly most permanently fallen paladins jump to blackguard.
Suprising as Improved Sunder isn't a common Pally feat. You have to be prepared.

[Flickerdart]

I see the Fallen Paladin as a "I'll make my own cause, with blackjack and hookers" sort of guy. He didn't fail his gods - the gods failed him, with their stupid ideas/arbitrary limits/unnecessary mysticism and vague prophets. This guy can be put anywhere on the alignment spectrum, and be a hero, villain or side character. The main appeal is that he breaks the status quo into a million tiny pieces just by being himself.

[Hirax]

The Gray Guard fluff in Complete Scoundrel makes for a good fallenish character.

[Kylarra]

And once again I fail to heed the warning. Three minutes later I've opened 7 tvtropes links and are completely stuck. 35 minutes later I reluctantly shut down the computer and go home. It's a drug and nothing else...Hey, 35 minutes is pretty short, relatively speaking.

[Frosty]

I say go for a novel approach. Your character fell and is now a NG or CG Crusader.

[Don Blake]

Agnostic believes that the existence of gods can't be known. Contact Other Plane and Commune beg to differ.

Someone who knows that gods do exist, but doesn't think them worth worshipping would be, hmm, something-theist?

Maltheist or misotheist, generally.

You could also go with goðlauss, an Icelandic term meaning Godless, if you want something a bit different sounding.

Maltheism is "the gods are evil,"
Misotheism is, "I hate the gods,"

[devinkowalczyk]

Personally, I am a fan of the paladdin who just snaps. Some horrible travesty reveals that life just ain't all good and pure.

Like Zsass, or zsazz, or however you spell his name, from Batman. I feel he would make a good outline for a fallen paladdin.

It could also vary depending on what mantle he picked up afterwards. If you are just a fallen paladdin, maybe you take up something like a sword worship (NN, very much like Japanese Samurai)

Or the evil, now following asmodeus

Or the mad, no following cthulhu

[DabblerWizard]

Let's get back on topic before someone turns this into a flamewar. What race/age/gender/etc is this paladin you're asking about OP? Or is this more of a general thought experiment? The culture the PC is from will dramatically influence how they react after having been cast down.

*edit I like 4), it's kind of similar to my 3) but different enough to be cool.

You guessed it Marnath. I posted this thread as a thought experiment.

It's true that the PC's culture in-game, or the specific code you have in mind out-of-game, can definitely impact when that paladin is no longer acting "lawful" and "good".

Instead of focusing on some of the interesting tropes mentioned above, I'll share some thoughts on specific behaviors or mindsets that a particular PC or player might argue for.

- Paladin 'A' believes in "natural laws" that are he/she thinks have to be held universally, all the time. These laws aren't necessarily, specifically sanctioned by their deity. One example: Slavery is abominable, and therefore cannot be allowed to exist.

'A' enters a land where slavery is sanctioned by the government, and subsequently frees many slaves... 'A' likely takes on other related actions against the slavers, but let's focus on the freeing of slaves, specifically.

Let's leave the "goodness" of this act, for a moment, and focus on its "lawfulness".

(1) It seems contradictory for a paladin to have to blindly follow a governments laws, no matter what, especially if they travel to different regions. e.g. "Country X says I can hunt slavers... but Country Y says I can't, oh well."

(2) There seems to be some leeway in the general paladin code, for breaking laws when stopping a sufficiently "bad" act or sufficiently "bad" law, is the motivation.

(3) Either of (1) or (2) could still land a paladin in no more powers land, and I wonder how such a former paladin would be able to reconcile this series of events.

It might not be "worth" being a paladin if you have to follow such arbitrary, absolutist paladin codes.

If your rules are base on your deity's commands exclusively, that at least might make things easier on the paladin.

[Marnath]

Exactly Dabbler. A paladin is lawful yes, both in the ordered sense and the Obeys laws sense. However, a paladin believes in laws as a means of bringing harmony and peace to people, not to opress them and certainly not to gain power over them. If a law fails to work for the good of the people, or is actively used to hurt people the paladin is within his rights to flaunt that law. Not openly though, unless he has a death wish >.>

The paladin in your slavery example is perfectly fine working against slavers insofar as he does not stoop to dishonorable means like poison or betrayal. He probably won't get in trouble for using stealth or ambushes, because even the most lawful god doesn't expect you to charge to your death, they want you to you know, get your mission done. You will still fall for striking down an unarmed prisoner, or torturing them. Evil slavers they may be, but it doesn't necessarily mean you should kill them all if you can free the slaves another way, even if it is a "better" way of putting their trade to an end.

[Person_Man]

Choose a Paladin archtype - chivalrous knight, jedi, green lantern, technical pacifist, knight templar, whatever. Make a religious order of paladins dedicated to that archtype. Then make your character part of that order, but have him believe in a different archtype.

For example, lets say you have an order of chivalrous knight paladins of Heironeous. You make your character someone who believes in the ideals of Heironeous as well, but he's a jedi or a technical pacifist who believes his paladin brothers are too violent and judgmental. Or the opposite - an order of jedi with your character playing a knight templar who believes that the jedi have become too weak.

The most interesting disagreements tend to be Gray vs Gray, not Black vs White.

[Tankadin]

Or this is this route to consider:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightInSourArmor

Now your paladin feels more like Malcolm Reynolds or maybe some of Camus' protagonists. The one who believes in universal laws in spite of all the evidence to the contrary (especially all of the confusion and conflict between various divine laws). They aren't necessarily happy that they think and act this way, but they can't shake it because it is the only thing they have to hold onto at this point.

[ghost_warlock]

I was a paladin once, long ago.

I'd felt The Call all my life and, once ordained, I ecstatically wore the mantle of my faith and was pious as any of my order. Through the Code I strove for justice and righteousness in all my actions. When called to duty by my church I served as best I could, hoping my actions would inspire and give hope.

At the same time, I remained humble to the extent possible. I never saw myself as The Hero, prayed only that my actions would leave this world in a happier state - no matter how small a change - than it was before I began my struggles.

But something happened along the way - a change in my perception. I can't say where or when, exactly, it began only that once the change had begun it was unstoppable.

I looked to the leaders of my church, who I'd once adored and respected as parents, and saw them leading with one eye upon the heavens, and the other upon their worldly holdings. I began to notice that the missions upon which I was being sent, had been sent, were largely politically motivated - chosen for how much glory they'd glean rather than how much good they'd sow.

I tried to put it out of my mind, trust that my god was guiding them even when I could not see his ushering hand. As time wore on, however, I noticed more and more the petty rivalry between my god and his peers - squabbling like children over increasing their respective footholds in the mortal world. This seemed always the rule, even amongst the gods of other paladin orders.

And the Code? Rhetoric clung to by those seeking easy answers. I came to wonder how I could ever do true good in the world if I was barred from associating with those most in need of my example?

My decision was an easy one to make. Willingly, I left my mantle upon the altar and walked away from the church. Willingly, I fell.

But what then would I do? The Call still burned within me, striving to be answered - to shine light in the darkest places of the world. I'd heard tales of mystics who were masters of the world within, who might be able to teach me how to take the light within me and magnify it, draw it out, and use it to fuel my search for righteousness in the world.

And so I sought them out and, after a long search and an arduous journey, at last I found them. Intrigued by my tale, they agreed to help me master the magic within myself. As a paladin, I had spent my life reflecting the light shed by my god but now, under their tutelage, I could begin to shed light of my own. At a great cost - but one well worth it! - they helped me reform myself and my years of training and, thusly, I began my new life as a psion.

[Marnath]

That's pretty cool, man. :smallsmile:

[DabblerWizard]

.... The most interesting disagreements tend to be Gray vs Gray, not Black vs White.

I agree. This is what I am getting at.


I was a paladin once, long ago....


I rather enjoyed that story. Thank you.


.... Evil slavers they may be, but it doesn't necessarily mean you should kill them all if you can free the slaves another way, even if it is a "better" way of putting their trade to an end.

My theoretical paladin, who believes that slavery should be abolished, might indeed have multiple ways to complete his mission, some of which may be more fall-proof than others.

Considering how abstract and theoretical this paladin is becoming, I could imagine him wanting to kill all the slavers as the only sure way to prevent this current slavery from continuing.

However, he may very well stumble upon an even greater threat. How does one destroy the idea of slavery? Even if he permanently stops these slavers in their tracks, what's to stop others from taking on similar actions in the future?

I would enjoy playing out this kind of frustration in the paladin. How far does he go? Where does he turn?

Does he start to preemptively eliminate people that may become slavers? That seems hardly justifiable.

Does he enter the astral plane, searching for some creator of ideas, and literally eliminate the idea of slavery from existence? This act, if he could pull it off, might lead him to feeling like his life has no purpose anymore, if his thoughts and actions become so single minded.

Then, though, he might conclude that there is some other absolute truth that needs rectifying...

At some point, of course, other deity's might start to interfere with his actions. He's basically stepping on a lot of toes, at this point.

[Marnath]

However, he may very well stumble upon an even greater threat. How does one destroy the idea of slavery? Even if he permanently stops these slavers in their tracks, what's to stop others from taking on similar actions in the future?

I would enjoy playing out this kind of frustration in the paladin. How far does he go? Where does he turn?

Does he start to preemptively eliminate people that may become slavers? That seems hardly justifiable.


The underlined is something you'd fall for, absolutely, and the first time too. Murder is wrong, and you've been on a slippery slope already for that to have become "logical."
I say that and i'm really against paladins having to fall, for little stuff at least.

[Ruinix]

my favorite story of the fall of a paladin is the story of Lord Soth knight of the black rose (dragonlance) wich he fail to his god Paladine and leave the world die all because of his jealousy and his own human weakness to control their emotions.

[LibraryOgre]

Antitheist?

Dystheist is the one I like. Think Mal in Serenity. He doesn't disbelieve in deity, per se... he simply thinks that worshiping them is useless.