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Shatteredtower
2010-08-09, 12:14 AM
Much has changed since 2e, but Athasians still have access to amazing SPF sunblock.

The attempt to adapt current cosmology wasn't too bad. The subjects of the Blue Age and life-shaping are avoided, but the Jagged Cliffs remain, loosely described enough to allow you to employ such elements if you want.

The world is more generous about what avoided extermination. Though the setting book disagrees with itself about ogres, it's helpful with suggestions for PCs of races that don't belong.

Your thoughts?

ghost_warlock
2010-08-09, 12:50 AM
Books aren't supposed to be out here until the 17th so I can't really comment. :smallsigh:

huttj509
2010-08-09, 12:53 AM
Books aren't supposed to be out here until the 17th so I can't really comment. :smallsigh:

Never let the local game store owners into your house when you impulse bought a book from Waldenbooks when the local game store hasn't received its shipment yet.

No violence, but I got a reeeeeeally dirty look on that one. Learn from my error. :-)

ghost_warlock
2010-08-09, 12:57 AM
Well, I'm hearing talk of the books being out already in a few places, so it looks like I'm going to be stopping by the bookstore tomorrow...just in case.:smallamused:

As for the local game store owners...yeah, not much involvement with them for years. Not since they decided to stop letting people game there because it "might scare away the comic book crowd." :smallsigh:

tcrudisi
2010-08-09, 01:23 AM
Well darn. I just worked my butt off running the new mods for GenCon to get my hands on an early copy (legitimately)... for some reason, I thought it wasn't supposed to come out for another couple of months yet.

There go my dreams of selling it on ebay for big bucks.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-09, 06:29 AM
Books aren't supposed to be out here until the 17th so I can't really comment. :smallsigh:

Huh. I've no idea why the local store didn't sell copies they'd had all week until the end of it then.

Hyozo
2010-08-09, 06:57 AM
I would comment on the new Dark Sun books, but I thought that I would probably get more use out of Psionic Power, so I bought that one instead. I haven't had much time to read it, but I like what I've seen.

It's nice to have a FLGS that gets all of the monthly books on their shelves at the very beginning of the month.

tcrudisi
2010-08-09, 10:55 AM
I would comment on the new Dark Sun books, but I thought that I would probably get more use out of Psionic Power, so I bought that one instead. I haven't had much time to read it, but I like what I've seen.

It's nice to have a FLGS that gets all of the monthly books on their shelves at the very beginning of the month.

Psionic Power isn't supposed to be out yet either? Hmm... no wonder I (accidentally, admittedly) grabbed the last copy.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-09, 10:20 PM
I would comment on the new Dark Sun books, but I thought that I would probably get more use out of Psionic Power, so I bought that one instead.

I bought all three, which is probably the end of my game budget until 2011.

I just figured out a possible reason for the early release. They weren't made available here until the 7th. Someone may have missed the 1 in front of it.

One parting comment for the DS setting: Access to wild talents could be popular, though not all were created equal. They may be too fluffy for some, but their convenience may appeal just enough to others.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-09, 10:52 PM
Ok, ok, ok. Being GENEROUS on races exterminated? Say what? Please explain. Because if there's anything athas should be, it isn't generous :smallmad:.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-09, 11:22 PM
The setting book gives a few suggestions for how you can accomodate a player that wants to play an unsupported or extinct race. That is a recommendation, not a requirement, but suggestions range from unique mutations to castaways from other times or realities, folks that will have a harder time adjusting to conditions.

It already gave me insight into how to accomodate someone that wants to play an aarakocra, a PC race in the revised 2nd Ed setting, in an edition that doesn't allow PCs to have innate flight, so it's not all bad.

You may wish to disregard any mention of minotaurs or gnolls, though, or else opt to replace them with gith or such.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-09, 11:38 PM
The setting book gives a few suggestions for how you can accomodate a player that wants to play an unsupported or extinct race. That is a recommendation, not a requirement, but suggestions range from unique mutations to castaways from other times or realities, folks that will have a harder time adjusting to conditions.

It already gave me insight into how to accomodate someone that wants to play an aarakocra, a PC race in the revised 2nd Ed setting, in an edition that doesn't allow PCs to have innate flight, so it's not all bad.

You may wish to disregard any mention of minotaurs or gnolls, though, or else opt to replace them with gith or such.

Ah, ok.
I thought that it just included orcs and such in the campaign setting. That would make me quite upset. xD

hamlet
2010-08-10, 06:58 AM
The setting book gives a few suggestions for how you can accomodate a player that wants to play an unsupported or extinct race.

Simple. You say "No."

Seems to be a lost art nowadays, really.

I glanced, briefly, at them in the FLGS the other day. Not for sale, but he had them on the counter so he could read them. I'm not terribly impressed with it since a good deal of the verbiage seems dedicated not to presenting the unique world of Athas, but in how to fit all 4th edition into a vaguely Dark Sun like mileu(sp?), which is to me wrong headed. In the original boxed set, Athas strethced AD&D to its max and turned it inside out in a lot of ways to create a unique and, frankly, violent world that just doesn't fit the concepts of AD&D as it is in the core books. I think that the new Dark Sun should have made the same attempt. Instead, it looks, to me, like Forgotten Realms, but drier.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-10, 07:28 PM
I thought that it just included orcs and such in the campaign setting. That would make me quite upset. xD

Well, there is a suggestion for using their stat blocks, with certain modifications, from the Monster Manuals for specific other creatures in Dark Sun, but I think you'll find the way that was done acceptable. That's done for a handful of creature conversions that shouldn't disrupt your image for the world.


Simple. You say "No."

Since "hearing your players out first" and "considering their proposal" didn't take precedent over your suggestion, here's a simple bit of advice for your players: Get another DM.


I'm not terribly impressed with it since a good deal of the verbiage seems dedicated not to presenting the unique world of Athas, but in how to fit all 4th edition into a vaguely Dark Sun like mileu(sp?)...

Go with "setting", though you spelled it correctly. The rest is way off, however.


Athas strethced AD&D to its max and turned it inside out in a lot of ways to create a unique and, frankly, violent world that just doesn't fit the concepts of AD&D as it is in the core books.

2nd Edition Athas was broken Seven Ways from Guthay, before and after the revision. Half the monsters couldn't work if you played them from the rules, lacking prerequisite psionic powers for the powers they had or the strength points necessary to do much with them. Half-giants threw the damage curve out the window before the revision (leading to the crippling of ability score benefits afterward). Crodlu were practically worthless as mounts for anything heavier than a naked female half-elf. The bonus xp charts encouraged a level of antagonism between PCs that practically guaranteed a TPK if the DM wasn't trying to be at least a little bit accomodating toward such antics--and those who talk about the world's violent nature don't sound like they'd tolerate that. Thank goodness for character tree rules, because avangions were unplayable without them--not that you could realistically expect to get a PC up to that level in less than five years if you wanted to have a life outside of your campaign.

The revision just made it worse, rendering telepathic (and some metapsionic) powers completely unusable against any other psionic creature. (When it takes you four or more rounds to beat a creature down to 0 PSPs, you can no longer hope to use powers like daydream or psionic vampirism against it.

Don't even get me started on the work you had to do to make most modules playable.

As for the violence of the setting, that was relative in a fashion that has nothing to do with whether the game's played in 2nd or 4th Edition. That violent setting supported the elven philosophy of living life in the Now. It featured the community mentality of Gulg. It gave us Shakespearean slave tribes, powerful idealists that managed to survive, even thrive, from Balic (with a poet leading its Veiled Alliance) to Draj (where they operated right under the king's nose!), and the selfless, pack-based mentality of the thri-kreen. The option to build armies at high level wasn't all about having them automatically turned into Dragon Chow either.

The capacity for treachery and paranoia hasn't diminished in the least. As it was then, it's all in how you play it. Good grief, the notes on Abalech-Re alone make it clear that the chaos in her city is not a handicap in your favour, but in hers. The notes on the sorcerer-kings provided good reasons why heroic individuals may want to hold off on toppling sorcerer-kings even if they're strong enough to do so, and Tyr is shown to be no picnic for the free people either.

Sure, game design encourages a balanced approach to most encounters. That doesn't rule out PCs making suicidal decisions. It just means that "being born on Athas" isn't meant to be one of them. Striving to change the world was always an encouraged objective for the setting. There's still no guarantee of that.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-08-10, 07:49 PM
I really like this setting. I've yet to get the creature cateloge though, which will probably help round it all off.

Themes are pretty great. Here is hoping they continue down this path. More options are always appreciated, especially when they are tied to roleplaying potential.


Simple. You say "No."

Seems to be a lost art nowadays, really.

I glanced, briefly, at them in the FLGS the other day. Not for sale, but he had them on the counter so he could read them. I'm not terribly impressed with it since a good deal of the verbiage seems dedicated not to presenting the unique world of Athas, but in how to fit all 4th edition into a vaguely Dark Sun like mileu(sp?), which is to me wrong headed. In the original boxed set, Athas strethced AD&D to its max and turned it inside out in a lot of ways to create a unique and, frankly, violent world that just doesn't fit the concepts of AD&D as it is in the core books. I think that the new Dark Sun should have made the same attempt. Instead, it looks, to me, like Forgotten Realms, but drier.

What were you expecting, exactly? And what disappointed you?

I haven't looked through any version of dark sun but this one, but it seems like a pretty violent place. Far moreso than FR.

Slavery everywhere. Corruption and truely and openly evil tyrants in every city. The gods being silent and arcane magic often a death sentence. Seas of silt which will swallow and suffocate you with ease. Many of the races we know from conventional D&D are gone, and the ones that arn't are changed. Halflings are barbaric cannibals, elfs are nomadic raiders, dwarfs BEARDLESS.

Gralamin
2010-08-10, 10:03 PM
dwarfs BEARDLESS.

But some Mul art has them with hair oddly enough. Muls are supposed to be completely hairless.

I got the books today, and I'm liking them. You can turn Defiling into an incredibly potent mechanic, with the support in the book.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-10, 10:53 PM
But some Mul art has them with hair oddly enough. Muls are supposed to be completely hairless.

Would you believe they were appearing incognito?

...Would you believe they were mutant muls?

...Would you believe someone just painted that on there while they were sleeping?


I got the books today, and I'm liking them. You can turn Defiling into an incredibly potent mechanic, with the support in the book.

I was mildly disappointed that you couldn't opt to reroll both attack and damage in a single round, but I'm sure most people find the side effects of one or the other rough enough on the system as it is. Still, there are some pretty neat ways to expand defiling options, as you wrote.

Kaun
2010-08-10, 11:33 PM
Is the game any deadlier then normal 4e?

And if so what have they done to make it so?

Gralamin
2010-08-10, 11:46 PM
Is the game any deadlier then normal 4e?

And if so what have they done to make it so?

Well, each unsupplied (A creature not in a city, village, outpost, or oasis, who does not manage to forage, and cannot spend a "survival day", a term that is roughly equal to 5 gp worth of supplies.) daylight period of travel causes you to be attacked by "Sun Sickness", a disease that scales by level. There are a number of other dangers as well, IIRC

It's rare to have magic items, using Fixed enhancement bonuses instead. There are a fair number of boons though, which aren't as good, but can help a bit. Metal items are rare, and thus you usually use non-metal items, which are easier to break (if you roll a 1, you can choose to reroll but break the item, or simply miss).

Kaun
2010-08-10, 11:51 PM
Well, each unsupplied (A creature not in a city, village, outpost, or oasis, who does not manage to forage, and cannot spend a "survival day", a term that is roughly equal to 5 gp worth of supplies.) daylight period of travel causes you to be attacked by "Sun Sickness", a disease that scales by level. There are a number of other dangers as well, IIRC

It's rare to have magic items, using Fixed enhancement bonuses instead. There are a fair number of boons though, which aren't as good, but can help a bit. Metal items are rare, and thus you usually use non-metal items, which are easier to break (if you roll a 1, you can choose to reroll but break the item, or simply miss).

Have they made resurrection less common by RAW?

Gralamin
2010-08-10, 11:57 PM
Have they made resurrection less common by RAW?

Rituals are handled a bit oddly, as a lot of it is explicitly up to the DM how it works. However, Religion based rituals (which Raise dead is not - its heal), straight out don't exist. Potions and enchant items are harder, controlling weather might not work in some areas, divination is very risky, none create food or water. Any ritual that uses nature is harder in defiled areas, and planar travel is near impossible. Teleportation is rare.

In addition, most rituals are connected to the Arcane - and thus distrusted.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-08-11, 12:01 AM
Its deadlier in the sense that the DM should run it in a deadlier fashion. Just by way of the setting.

They can't really just make all encounters more difficult, but by the way of the world they naturally are. In a Points of Light Setting, you might be able to walk from one town to another without too much trouble. As tycho from PA said, in Dark Sun "There is no such thing as a good road. Rush hour all the time, and instead of cars, horrific wasteland mutants."

Though they do facilitate it a little more with their survival in the desert rules, which can kill an unprepared adventurer in a few days. (depending on how bad a character rolls, a character can die in three days of not having supplies)

Lhurgyof
2010-08-11, 12:32 AM
Hmmm... There was a dwarf with hair in one of the monster manuals, cool pic, though.

And does it actually say what happens when you defile in the books?

And wasn't defiling from PEOPLE somethings dragons could do? And why does it only affect allies? (I'm asking for RAW and fluff answers, please. I want to know the reasoning behind these changes and such).

Myatar_Panwar
2010-08-11, 01:01 AM
Defiling from the book only affects allies within 5 squares likely because it would be wayyy too easy to abuse that if it worked on enemies.

And how it works is when you cast a daily arcane power, you can choose to use defiling magic and re-roll either the attack or damage roll. When you do this, all allies within 5 squares loose hitpoints equal to 1/2 their healing surge value.

As for fluff, unless you are a preserver (which means you never activate defiling magic), stuff around you withers and dies when you cast any arcane power. Plants, small animals, etc.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-11, 01:44 AM
Hmmm... There was a dwarf with hair in one of the monster manuals, cool pic, though.

The campaign setting book describes them as having little to no hair now, but that's easy enough to adjust.

As for the defiling, it starts off hurting only allies and plant life, but there is a paragon path that gets offensive use out of it and an epic path that gets better benefits from it. A few arcane defiling feats also boost the damage or otherwise benefit the caster, so there's some approximation for what you see from enemy casters.

Defiling rules tend to stack against PCs. Enemy defilers tend to affect only their enemies with such power, using it as an attack.

However it's used, defiling's effect on plant life can sometimes create exploitable, hazardous terrain. It doesn't change too much, but it can make the draining effect on plants feel more meaningful.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-11, 03:26 AM
Defiling from the book only affects allies within 5 squares likely because it would be wayyy too easy to abuse that if it worked on enemies.
Wasn't that 20 squares? Otherwise it would be too easy to walk away from your allies and get a reroll for free.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-08-11, 03:32 AM
Your right. Not sure where I got 5 squares...


edit: And it was why I thought it would be super abuse-able. Now that I know it is 20, I don't think it would be completely crazy to house rule that it affects both allies and enemies. Though you would have to have some sort of clause where it only does 1/4 of a HS on Elites, and some other fraction for solos (can't remember the exact HP multiplier right now). Don't want low PC's doing defiling magic just so they can do alot of damage to high hitpoint creatures.

Kurald Galain
2010-08-11, 04:01 AM
edit: And it was why I thought it would be super abuse-able. Now that I know it is 20, I don't think it would be completely crazy to house rule that it affects both allies and enemies.

I think that would be strongly overpowered. Compare: a level-16 blood mage can, as a standard action, do an automatic 10 or so damage within range 10. A level-1 defiler could, as a free action, do more automatic damage in twice the range.

hamlet
2010-08-11, 07:52 AM
Since "hearing your players out first" and "considering their proposal" didn't take precedent over your suggestion, here's a simple bit of advice for your players: Get another DM.



:smallannoyed:You'll, perhaps, explain to me what is wrong with, when confronted with a player demanding to play an orc, goblin, ogre, or other such creature in a Dark Sun campaign setting, responding with "No, that race/species has been entirely destroyed and no longer exists in this world."

As for the rest of your post, well, I'm not going to bother because I'm not really in the mood for the argument that it would spawn. My one last nerve and I are trying to save energy for the long day ahead.


What were you expecting, exactly? And what disappointed you?

What did I expect? Essentially exactly what there is in the book. I was hoping, though, that I wouldn't see the book encouraging the DM to find ways to allow things that are distinctly "un-Athasian" into the game because a player wants it. To me, one of the biggest things that made Dark Sun great was that it was so wholeheartedly different from the standard AD&D "implied setting" of western European themes, and that so many of the usual things were removed, many of them specifically via genocide and it was NEVER implied in the original boxed materials that existed before the execrable revised boxed set.

This is, seriously, a pet peeve of mine, and I'm not commenting on the objective quality of the book (which, taken by itself, isn't bad), but on it's subjective quality to me and to my tastes. Though I'm not familiar enough with 4th edition mechanics, or with the minutia of the mechanics in the new Dark Sun books having only glanced at them, to conduct an educated discussion on the mechanical aspects, I will say that in my opinion, I do not think that D&D 4.0 and it's general methodology are entirely suitable for play in the world of Athas. The game focuses far more heavily on heroic and cinematic action and the explicit instructions to the DM are to allow things into the campaign that, simply put, shouldn't be there, just because a player wants them. I have no problem, nor do I even see an issue, with explaining to a player that their choice of character race and class is limited to what actually exists in the world setting and that things outside of that list are simply inappropriate. WOTC, and Shatterdtower seemingly, object to that vehemently.

Dragosai
2010-08-11, 08:21 AM
So for all the posts about the books not being out yet and all that jazz; The 3 Dark Sun books, and Psionic Power all came out early last week to any "brick & motor" store. WOTC did they same thing with the PHB 3, they gave a "release date" of Aug 17th and as I understand it that will be when ALL retail outfits have it and when the data is released in the CB. I applaud WOTC for the early release to "real" stores, it gives people a little incentive to buy from their local gamming store vs. big internet stores with discounts. Of course do to a lot of local stores having closed their doors a long time ago it can be hard to "support" your local store but for the few that are still around I hope this kind of release schedule helps their sales.

Second I think the Dark Sun books were done very well.
I am a little underwhelmed by Psionic Power, but I have not really gone over all its stuff fully so my opinion may change.
Last about the mul pics with hair, I don't recall these but to be honest I have been reading stuff much more then looking at all the art closely. My question is this; how do we know these pictures are not humans? I don't recall any captions with any artwork, and unless the picture is on the pages were the race is presented how can anyone know for sure if said picture is depicting a mul over a human? I would just use common sense and assume that hair = human.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-11, 08:29 AM
The 3 Dark Sun books, and Psionic Power all came out early last week to any "brick & motor" store.

It's "brick & mortar," not "brick & motor." :smallsigh:

Dragosai
2010-08-11, 08:41 AM
:smallannoyed:You'll, perhaps, explain to me what is wrong with, when confronted with a player demanding to play an orc, goblin, ogre, or other such creature in a Dark Sun campaign setting, responding with "No, that race/species has been entirely destroyed and no longer exists in this world."

As for the rest of your post, well, I'm not going to bother because I'm not really in the mood for the argument that it would spawn. My one last nerve and I are trying to save energy for the long day ahead.



What did I expect? Essentially exactly what there is in the book. I was hoping, though, that I wouldn't see the book encouraging the DM to find ways to allow things that are distinctly "un-Athasian" into the game because a player wants it. To me, one of the biggest things that made Dark Sun great was that it was so wholeheartedly different from the standard AD&D "implied setting" of western European themes, and that so many of the usual things were removed, many of them specifically via genocide and it was NEVER implied in the original boxed materials that existed before the execrable revised boxed set.

This is, seriously, a pet peeve of mine, and I'm not commenting on the objective quality of the book (which, taken by itself, isn't bad), but on it's subjective quality to me and to my tastes. Though I'm not familiar enough with 4th edition mechanics, or with the minutia of the mechanics in the new Dark Sun books having only glanced at them, to conduct an educated discussion on the mechanical aspects, I will say that in my opinion, I do not think that D&D 4.0 and it's general methodology are entirely suitable for play in the world of Athas. The game focuses far more heavily on heroic and cinematic action and the explicit instructions to the DM are to allow things into the campaign that, simply put, shouldn't be there, just because a player wants them. I have no problem, nor do I even see an issue, with explaining to a player that their choice of character race and class is limited to what actually exists in the world setting and that things outside of that list are simply inappropriate. WOTC, and Shatterdtower seemingly, object to that vehemently.

Anyone else really tired of people who know nothing about 4th ED making blanket statements about it? Dark Sun 4th does in no way shape or form for a second "encourage" DM's to allow races that are not supposed to appear on Athas. Since you state in the above post that you are not familiar with 4th ED rules so I am going to guess you don't own a copy of 4th Dark Sun and just heard or somewhere on the internet’s some lame ass fan boys of old editions talking about the new Dark Sun being bad because it allows races that are supposed to be extinct. This could not be more wrong, there is a small section on one page, maybe about a quarter of a page or so that talks about other races and how to use them. The default is "no" they don't exist, are all dead, never existed etc, they have the blurb in there just saying "hey if you want to use these other races do to it being YOUR game world and wanting them for any number of valid reasons" here are some suggestions on how to do so, that is all.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-08-11, 12:14 PM
I think that would be strongly overpowered. Compare: a level-16 blood mage can, as a standard action, do an automatic 10 or so damage within range 10. A level-1 defiler could, as a free action, do more automatic damage in twice the range.

I would think that affecting allies and just the threat of being caught and shanked would be reason enough to use it sparingly. Though you could be right.



What did I expect? Essentially exactly what there is in the book. I was hoping, though, that I wouldn't see the book encouraging the DM to find ways to allow things that are distinctly "un-Athasian" into the game because a player wants it.

It does not ENCOURAGE DM's to add in races if the players want them. Instead it basically says "Listen, it wouldn't be the end of the ****ing world if you came up with a reason for an orc showing up. Chill out dude."

Also, as you have said many times




Simple. You say "No."

hamlet
2010-08-11, 01:25 PM
It does not ENCOURAGE DM's to add in races if the players want them. Instead it basically says "Listen, it wouldn't be the end of the ****ing world if you came up with a reason for an orc showing up. Chill out dude."



If that's the case, then I misread, which is not impossible.

Still, it's not to my tastes. I much prefer its original incarnation (and by original, I mean before the novels by Denning blew everything up).

Tough_Tonka
2010-08-11, 02:28 PM
Well, each unsupplied (A creature not in a city, village, outpost, or oasis, who does not manage to forage, and cannot spend a "survival day", a term that is roughly equal to 5 gp worth of supplies.) daylight period of travel causes you to be attacked by "Sun Sickness", a disease that scales by level. There are a number of other dangers as well, IIRC

It's rare to have magic items, using Fixed enhancement bonuses instead. There are a fair number of boons though, which aren't as good, but can help a bit. Metal items are rare, and thus you usually use non-metal items, which are easier to break (if you roll a 1, you can choose to reroll but break the item, or simply miss).

I'm really like these changes. Unless I'm playing Eberron I don't like new magic items appearing once every session so I'm glad they came up with an alternative.

One question though, is there any bonuses with having metal weapons though, cause it seems better to me to get a potential reroll than it is to not have the option to break your weapon.

Hzurr
2010-08-11, 02:29 PM
Still, it's not to my tastes. I much prefer its original incarnation (and by original, I mean before the novels by Denning blew everything up).

The 4E setting also takes place before the novels. The timeline it starts at is almost identical to that of the origional (The difference being the Sorcerer-King of Tyr has been overthrown).

The Glyphstone
2010-08-11, 02:30 PM
I'm really like these changes. Unless I'm playing Eberron I don't like new magic items appearing once every session so I'm glad they came up with an alternative.

One question though, is there any bonuses with having metal weapons though, cause it seems better to me to get a potential reroll than it is to not have the option to break your weapon.

If I remember the preview discussion, metal weapons let you have a re-roll with only a 50% chance (or something) of breakage, instead of 100%.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-08-11, 02:48 PM
Bone and stone weapons, on a 1, can be re-rolled. But the weapon breaks after contact.

A metal weapon has the same rules, except it will only break if your re-roll is a 5 or lower.

LibraryOgre
2010-08-11, 03:04 PM
The 4E setting also takes place before the novels. The timeline it starts at is almost identical to that of the origional (The difference being the Sorcerer-King of Tyr has been overthrown).

I'll have to look, but that would be right after the Verdant Passage, but right before The Crimson Legion.

Really, it's a good point to set a PoL campaign... you've got one place that is shaking off corruption, various places in other levels or weirdness (Gulg, for example, with its "forest goddess" mythos for its sorcerer-queen)... but no one has quite reacted to the fact that evil is no longer pervasive, and is just predominant.

hamlet
2010-08-11, 04:48 PM
I'll have to look, but that would be right after the Verdant Passage, but right before The Crimson Legion.

Really, it's a good point to set a PoL campaign... you've got one place that is shaking off corruption, various places in other levels or weirdness (Gulg, for example, with its "forest goddess" mythos for its sorcerer-queen)... but no one has quite reacted to the fact that evil is no longer pervasive, and is just predominant.

It's not a bad place to start, but IMO a better place to start is to have an entire campaign focused around the slaying of Kalak. Been my dream to actually run that one day.

LibraryOgre
2010-08-11, 05:01 PM
It's not a bad place to start, but IMO a better place to start is to have an entire campaign focused around the slaying of Kalak. Been my dream to actually run that one day.

True, but I'd bet it's doable, as is.

Hzurr
2010-08-11, 05:08 PM
It's not a bad place to start, but IMO a better place to start is to have an entire campaign focused around the slaying of Kalak. Been my dream to actually run that one day.

If only there was an all-powerful person who could run the game and easily change when the setting took place. Some sort of Master, in charge of the Game.

oh wait... :smallsmile:


Just nudge when/where the campaign starts, and voila: Kalak is the big bad of the campaign.

LibraryOgre
2010-08-11, 05:10 PM
If only there was an all-powerful person who could run the game and easily change when the setting took place. Some sort of Master, in charge of the Game.

oh wait... :smallsmile:


Just nudge when/where the campaign starts, and voila: Kalak is the big bad of the campaign.

You lie. We all know you're in no way in charge of the game. :smallwink:

Tough_Tonka
2010-08-11, 10:34 PM
Just got the book today at my comic book shop. Its pretty sweet. One thing I find interesting about it is that a lot of details are left for the DM to decide. The sorcerer kings have ruled for hundreds of years or is it thousands I forget :smalltongue:. There could be unknown regions across the sea of silt or there could be nothing.

I could be wrong, but I've noticed this idea of leaving blanks spaces for the GM seems to be more common in recent games. If you compare oWoD and nWoD or Forgotten Realms with Eberron you can see what I mean.

ghost_warlock
2010-08-11, 10:41 PM
Been to both Barnes & Noble and the "brick and mortar" store and nobody has the books yet. So, I guess no early release for me. :smallfrown:

Lhurgyof
2010-08-11, 11:18 PM
One question though, is there any bonuses with having metal weapons though, cause it seems better to me to get a potential reroll than it is to not have the option to break your weapon.

That was in 3.5e, it's called the "Inferior weapon quality" rule or something, Stone/Bone/Wood weapons get -2 hit/damage and Obsidian gets -1 to hit/damage.


Just got the book today at my comic book shop. Its pretty sweet. One thing I find interesting about it is that a lot of details are left for the DM to decide. The sorcerer kings have ruled for hundreds of years or is it thousands I forget . There could be unknown regions across the sea of silt or there could be nothing.

I could be wrong, but I've noticed this idea of leaving blanks spaces for the GM seems to be more common in recent games. If you compare oWoD and nWoD or Forgotten Realms with Eberron you can see what I mean.

Ah, well, to get a lot of what's left out, you need to get the older books/boxed sets; Valley of Dust and Fire for what's to the east, it's really cool if you can land your hands on it.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-12, 12:12 AM
:smallannoyed:You'll, perhaps, explain to me what is wrong with, when confronted with a player demanding to play an orc, goblin, ogre, or other such creature in a Dark Sun campaign setting, responding with "No, that race/species has been entirely destroyed and no longer exists in this world."

Well, if we take the spin word, demanding, out of your argument, all you've got is, "My vision won't allow it," for reasons that don't stand up. The 2nd Edition setting books mentioned at least one NPC from another world before the githyanki adventure, complete with mind flayer encounter, so your player's character wouldn't be the first disadvantaged stranger in a strange land. The idea that such a thing threatens the value of the setting can't be taken seriously.

If you can't sell your vision, negotiation is just good business.

As for the rest I wrote, there was nothing wrong with ignoring it. A wounded gazelle excuse wasn't necessary.

Belobog
2010-08-12, 02:01 AM
One question though, is there any bonuses with having metal weapons though, cause it seems better to me to get a potential reroll than it is to not have the option to break your weapon.

Metal weapons still suffer from the Reckless Use rule if you choose to use it in your game; the only difference is that metal weapons only break if the base reroll value is 1-5, while non-metal weapons require a 20 to not break.

Zombimode
2010-08-12, 02:02 AM
I could be wrong, but I've noticed this idea of leaving blanks spaces for the GM seems to be more common in recent games. If you compare oWoD and nWoD or Forgotten Realms with Eberron you can see what I mean.

Well, at least the older versions of the Forgotten Realms were writen in the mind that A) there is no "canon" in regards to PnP settings, and B) any GM WILL make the changes he sees as necessary.
Plus, at least the 2e FRCS had only the Dalelands explained in detail. The various splatbooks for specific regions were for further inspiration or for those GMs who didnt had the time/ability to flesh out those regions.
In contrast to the much more rigidly constructed settings like Dragonlance and DarkSun the Forgotten Realms were one of the most open settings back in the day.

So, its good to see that the "there is no canon" view is rising again :)

Zaydos
2010-08-12, 02:06 AM
Me I was just looking at some old 2e Planescape books and thinking about just how much they left up to the DM. They only hinted at whole layers of Arcadia for example (saying the Harmonium had them blocked off for reasons known only to the higher ups of the group), and really just had enough that the DM could make his own plot hooks from dozens of the sites. Of course splats explained some of these in detail, but that's the wonder of splats they don't have to be used. Back in middle-school I decided that the 2e books left so much blank out of laziness and/or greed; now I realize that it's the blank spots that make the worlds usable.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-14, 11:27 PM
I didn't like the weapon feats that gave you new encounter or daily powers in lieu of ones you'd normally get. The powers were okay, but not worth a feat.

Some of the theme powers were nice, but they weren't always compatible with your chosen class. Feats tied to them were sometimes a little too limited.

Still enjoying the books, but it will be interesting to see where the mechanics get broken. The avangion bonus to death saves might create one example.

Also, many will be happy to know that the thri-kreen claws power uses a minor action.

Loren
2010-08-15, 07:30 AM
With regards to old material, a google search may find some.
The 3.5 version of the game, I understand, has also released much of the fluff

Kurald Galain
2010-08-15, 05:12 PM
Wow, I just found the most ridiculous Epic Destiny feature ever.

Whenever you die, it turns out that you had a trusted follower or lieutenant who just happens to have the same skills, powers, goals, and equipment as you do, and who you just happen to have told all your history and secrets, and this follower will infallibly take up your identity and continue your work as if he were you. Except if you get resurrected within 12 hours, in which case the lieutenant returns to doing nothing. And if for whatever reason the lieutenant dies, it turns out that he also had a trusted follower with the exact same specs, and so forth.

...WHUH?! :smallbiggrin:

Shatteredtower
2010-08-15, 08:31 PM
Wow, I just found the most ridiculous Epic Destiny feature ever.

It can look a bit odd, but I can mention three works off the top of my head that employ a similar idea: Six String Samurai, Santiago, and The Princess Bride. The mechanics aren't the same, but the principle is: the legend never dies.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-15, 09:41 PM
Wow, I just found the most ridiculous Epic Destiny feature ever.

Whenever you die, it turns out that you had a trusted follower or lieutenant who just happens to have the same skills, powers, goals, and equipment as you do, and who you just happen to have told all your history and secrets, and this follower will infallibly take up your identity and continue your work as if he were you. Except if you get resurrected within 12 hours, in which case the lieutenant returns to doing nothing. And if for whatever reason the lieutenant dies, it turns out that he also had a trusted follower with the exact same specs, and so forth.

...WHUH?! :smallbiggrin:

Nah, it's still outmatched by the one that has your Mirror Universe/parallel reality twin replace you.:smallbiggrin:

Lord Raziere
2010-08-15, 09:53 PM
Nah, it's still outmatched by the one that has your Mirror Universe/parallel reality twin replace you.:smallbiggrin:

that is awesome, I gotta get the Dark Sun book.

Lhurgyof
2010-08-15, 11:32 PM
Do they still have Avangians, Dragons, and Elementals as PC classes/"Epic Destinies"?

Kurald Galain
2010-08-16, 02:55 AM
It can look a bit odd, but I can mention three works off the top of my head that employ a similar idea:
The principle is good. It's the mechanics that are ridiculous. Particularly the part where, if you get resurrected, your high-level lieutenant stops doing anything useful until you happen to die again, and the part where (against a lethal DM) you'll end up playing your ally's ally's ally's ally in a matter of days.


that is awesome, I gotta get the Dark Sun book.
I think that one is from Dragon magazine, actually.


Do they still have Avangians, Dragons, and Elementals as PC classes/"Epic Destinies"?
They're all epic destinies. You get the standard attribute boosts, Avangians get some healing power, and the "dragon king" can turn into a dragon for one encounter per day, at level 26. As most EDs, they're mostly fluff.

potatocubed
2010-08-16, 03:43 AM
Well, at least the older versions of the Forgotten Realms were writen in the mind that A) there is no "canon" in regards to PnP settings, and B) any GM WILL make the changes he sees as necessary.

Fun fact: Sembia was originally (in the first release of the Forgotten Realms) left completely blank, for GMs to fill in as they liked. When it gained a definite character with the second release of the Realms, many people were hacked off.

I picked up the Dark Sun books (campaign guide and creature catalogue) this weekend and I'm actually pretty impressed. The CC has more background info on the people and monsters than the MM and is, in many ways, a lot more sensible - it mentions, for example, that an elder cloud ray is often the terrain for a fight rather than something you fight in itself, although it then gives extensive stats for one.

Although there is something in there that does ongoing 45 damage. :smalleek: I'm not sure if this is a typo or not.

Excession
2010-08-16, 06:16 AM
Although there is something in there that does ongoing 45 damage. :smalleek: I'm not sure if this is a typo or not.

Lolth, as a level 35 Solo Lurker, can in a best case scenario (for her) hit someone with ongoing 50 poison, ongoing 20 fire, and vulnerable 20 to all.

Edit: and ongoing 30 acid. Don't mess with the spider queen, just don't.

So whether it's a typo depends on what level this thing is.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-16, 07:15 PM
The principle is good. It's the mechanics that are ridiculous. Particularly the part where, if you get resurrected, your high-level lieutenant stops doing anything useful until you happen to die again, and the part where (against a lethal DM) you'll end up playing your ally's ally's ally's ally in a matter of days.

The problem is that it's the most straightforward way to implement the principle in a system designed around encounters for 4-6 characters. Sure, the results are like having a player that always replaces a dead character with a perfect duplicate, but if that's what the player wants for those last six levels, it seems fitting enough.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me to see errata limit that trick to working only once a day. It also reminds me of an old Godfather II spoof from Mad Magazine, in which we see Al Pacino become Marlon Brando in the last panels, so I do see the silliness inherent in the system.:smallwink:

Shatteredtower
2010-08-16, 07:36 PM
Although there is something in there that does ongoing 45 damage. :smalleek: I'm not sure if this is a typo or not.

I had to look that up, and yes, it does look a little excessive, even as a single target recharge (50%) power for a 22nd lvl solo. One of his minor/triggered combos is also nasty, but nowhere near that level.

Then again, there's a 22nd lvl elite with a ranged recharge power that takes a bloodied opponent down if it hits, so maybe I'm wrong. Still doesn't sound as bad as 45 ongoing though.

Hzurr
2010-08-16, 07:41 PM
Although there is something in there that does ongoing 45 damage. :smalleek: I'm not sure if this is a typo or not.

I'm in the process of listening to the DarkSun panel from Gencon, and Rich Baker just said straight up that Dark Sun creatures are really, really tough.

IT'S DARK SUN MUTHA@#$#$@!!!! THINGS WILL KILL YOU!

Aroka
2010-08-16, 08:10 PM
I'm in the process of listening to the DarkSun panel from Gencon, and Rich Baker just said straight up that Dark Sun creatures are really, really tough.

Sounds like they kept the essentials. I'll just bring back the character tree...

Shatteredtower
2010-08-16, 08:50 PM
Sounds like they kept the essentials. I'll just bring back the character tree...

I always had a problem with that thing, best summed up by a comic book cliche:

"Hey, you ever notice that we never see that half giant, the thri-kreen, and the halfling together? You don't suppose they're all really the same guy, do you?"

Then again, one of the Dark Sun supplements included an NPC that effectively and (perhaps) convincingly simulated the concept, so I accept it can work. In fact, it was the only realistic way to level up avangions or dragons in multiplayer games.

I think I'd prefer a system that had the players share one tree, though I suspect that would go over as poorly as pregenerated characters do wth some people.

Audious
2010-08-16, 09:06 PM
Wow, I just found the most ridiculous Epic Destiny feature ever.

Whenever you die, it turns out that you had a trusted follower or lieutenant who just happens to have the same skills, powers, goals, and equipment as you do, and who you just happen to have told all your history and secrets, and this follower will infallibly take up your identity and continue your work as if he were you. Except if you get resurrected within 12 hours, in which case the lieutenant returns to doing nothing. And if for whatever reason the lieutenant dies, it turns out that he also had a trusted follower with the exact same specs, and so forth.

...WHUH?! :smallbiggrin:

Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-16, 09:17 PM
Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts.

Noted earlier, as was, "VEGAS!" :smallwink:

Audious
2010-08-16, 09:18 PM
Noted earlier, as was, "VEGAS!" :smallwink:


Awww... and I thought I skimmed the thread well enough after reading that to avoid it. :(

Shatteredtower
2010-08-16, 10:00 PM
No worries. The quote added to the ambience anyway. I just wanted an excuse to shout "VEGAS!" but that wasn't enough for the ten character limit. :smallbiggrin:

Aroka
2010-08-16, 10:07 PM
I always had a problem with that thing, best summed up by a comic book cliche:

"Hey, you ever notice that we never see that half giant, the thri-kreen, and the halfling together? You don't suppose they're all really the same guy, do you?"

It takes some work. It's easier when you start with the realization that it doesn't mean you immediately get to re-enter play after you die. No way. The other PCs are off somewhere, doing something - indeed, what they're doing should be determined ("bluebooked") even though it's off-screen. Eventually, the entire bunch will ge together again somewhere, and a party will re-form; the fact that a few sets of three characters never end up on the same active party is easily overlooked (especially when you consider that the two inactive PCs may in fact be off doing something together off-screen).

Basically, when you make up details of what they're doing (nothing as impressive or important as the active PCs, naturally), and don't treat them as a closet full of spare sheets, it works out pretty fine - but that does take some thinking and attention during play.

The New Bruceski
2010-08-17, 02:21 AM
It can look a bit odd, but I can mention three works off the top of my head that employ a similar idea: Six String Samurai, Santiago, and The Princess Bride. The mechanics aren't the same, but the principle is: the legend never dies.

Does Sabata count, or are Yul Brynner and Lee Van Cleef supposed to be playing the same person, one as a hairless man in an open-shirted cowboy outfit that would look at home in a strip club, and the other as Lee Van Cleef?

I suppose one could also argue James Bond into there as well.

ghost_warlock
2010-08-17, 10:30 AM
So my mission to acquire the Dark Sun books has hit another snag - the local Barnes & Nobel is telling me that the Creature Catalog isn't being released until the 31st...even though Wizard's website says it should be out today. :smallmad:

Shatteredtower
2010-08-21, 05:00 AM
Hang in there, Ghost_Warlock.

Bruceski, that should also fit the bill.


It takes some work.

Yes, but that doesn't change my perception of it. It's no different than playing multiple groups in the same campaign, save that there's always one group getting free levels. If you want to run multiple teams anyway, you may as well take the freebie. No reason you can't have them run simultaneous adventures with two groups either. It's easier to keep a group from justifying sudden reinforcements when half the team dies in Balic if they're playing their other characters in Draj, Ogo, and Salt View. The advantage to script over simultaneous adventures is that you're free to draw spares whenever you please, especially if it keeps things moving. The results can't always conceal contrivance, but whatever keeps everyone engaged in the game, right?

chaotoroboto
2010-08-21, 02:45 PM
Anyone else really tired of people who know nothing about 4th ED making blanket statements about it?

+1

However, it wouldn't be the internet if anyone knew anything about the subject they were making blanket statements about.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-21, 11:59 PM
After today's session, my reaction can be summed up as: TemboMG! I nearly killed the party, who'd quickly obliterated their previous encounters with negligible difficulties, and that was despite overlooking a critical ability that severely reduced the danger it posed.

It isn't overpowered for its level, but no one's going to forget facing one quickly.

ghost_warlock
2010-08-22, 09:09 AM
After today's session, my reaction can be summed up as: TemboMG! I nearly killed the party, who'd quickly obliterated their previous encounters with negligible difficulties, and that was despite overlooking a critical ability that severely reduced the danger it posed.

It isn't overpowered for its level, but no one's going to forget facing one quickly.

Honestly, I think the dust devils encounter from the D&D Encounters line was tougher. We fought the tembo immediately after the gith without even a chance to recharge our encounter powers and still managed to down it with only one character dying (the ardent...who was mostly dead weight anyway).

Maybe it had something to do with party composition. Our group was running with the monk, warlock, ardent, seeker, and the Encounters battlemind (leveled up to 4 for the adventure).

Also, the skill check encounter was laughably easy. The majority of the characters could meet the DC 12 skill checks without even rolling. =|

Shatteredtower
2010-08-22, 03:16 PM
We fought the tembo immediately after the gith without even a chance to recharge our encounter powers and still managed to down it with only one character dying (the ardent...who was mostly dead weight anyway).

It tpk'd three out of eight groups in Calgary, one more on a technicality (5 player party down, but the DM let them pull the 5th sheet into action), and my group's survival was a near thing even without it taking its double turns.

The one group that did dominate it was a four player team that had one guy running double duty with the warlock and the ardent, and they trounced it quite thoroughly.

Meanwhile, in the previous encounter you mentioned, the dust devils dropped one of us (my sorcerer) in the second round, and then were swept up by the rest of the party.


Also, the skill check encounter was laughably easy. The majority of the characters could meet the DC 12 skill checks without even rolling. =|

Since you picked the battlemind over the other two characters, I'm not surprised. I'm also not surprised they made it easy. You only needed one failed Stealth check (not even a group check) to trigger a second encounter. The Perception was too easy, but Endurance could have seriously hurt one or two players even if you did succeed on the "challenge", especially in a six-player group.

The four-hour tour was only meant to be an introduction to potential difficulties, not the Gilligan's Island episode in which Dai'lo Mary Ann reenacts "The Yarn of the 'Nancy Bell'". :smallwink:

True, they can make it harder for longer treks, but at some point designers decided that Moderate difficulty skill checks should give the untrained/unoptimized only a 50% chance of failure. Since general game design is not geared toward overall playability, rather than optimization, it's best to set it for the base for trial events, with individual DMs gearing them up (or down) to what provides the party with a meaningful challenge.

As for me, I just had players rolling three d20 at a time. :smallsmile:

ghost_warlock
2010-08-22, 09:15 PM
It tpk'd three out of eight groups in Calgary, one more on a technicality (5 player party down, but the DM let them pull the 5th sheet into action), and my group's survival was a near thing even without it taking its double turns.

The one group that did dominate it was a four player team that had one guy running double duty with the warlock and the ardent, and they trounced it quite thoroughly.

The biggest problem was, I think, the pregen characters. The ardent just seemed...lackluster...compared to the Encounters ardent (who is somewhat of a glass cannon). The seeker was terrible...what kind of controller is built almost entirely of single-target attacks? The monk and warlock seemed fairly solid, though the monk was almost one-shotted in round 1 by one of the gith.

Again, biggest problem for our group was was starting the tembo encounter without a chance to rest after the gith. Although, I'm not entirely sure the DM was giving it double turns. Hm...


Meanwhile, in the previous encounter you mentioned, the dust devils dropped one of us (my sorcerer) in the second round, and then were swept up by the rest of the party.

The dust devil encounter was improperly designed for the party level. If the DM played them with semi-intelligent tactics, they all drop their AoEs in round one and have an almost-guaranteed TPK. According to complaining on Facebook, this is exactly what happened to some groups...apparently after the dust devils won initiative. Nothing kills the fun of a game like the entire party getting wiped out before the PCs can even act. :smallsigh:


Since you picked the battlemind over the other two characters, I'm not surprised. I'm also not surprised they made it easy. You only needed one failed Stealth check (not even a group check) to trigger a second encounter. The Perception was too easy, but Endurance could have seriously hurt one or two players even if you did succeed on the "challenge", especially in a six-player group.

When leveling the battlemind I fixed some of the errors and retrained a power/feat or two. It had a +11 Endurance so a DC 12 was an auto-succeed.


The four-hour tour was only meant to be an introduction to potential difficulties, not the Gilligan's Island episode in which Dai'lo Mary Ann reenacts "The Yarn of the 'Nancy Bell'". :smallwink:
:smalltongue: We were making Gilligan's Island jokes, too.


True, they can make it harder for longer treks, but at some point designers decided that Moderate difficulty skill checks should give the untrained/unoptimized only a 50% chance of failure. Since general game design is not geared toward overall playability, rather than optimization, it's best to set it for the base for trial events, with individual DMs gearing them up (or down) to what provides the party with a meaningful challenge.

As for me, I just had players rolling three d20 at a time. :smallsmile:

Honestly, I don't mind the skill challenges being fairly easy, considering I'm fairly certain the pregens were fairly unoptimized and the sheets didn't list all of the relevant details for the characters. For instance, the monk's sheet didn't list any feats.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-23, 12:38 AM
None of the sheets listed feats, though you could identify some from the abilities. For simplicity's sake, we even left the error that gave the warlock's curse the extra d8 damage. I suspect the ardent's implanted suggestion has also seen an update someone left off the card, because a botched save let the fighter nail it a few times.

The seeker had a few nice powers, one of which crippled most of the gith offensive power for a critical first round, making them easy prey for the monk and templar. The fighter had a run of bad luck there, but he more than made up for it against the tembo, despite going down twice. The ardent two good rounds after T showed, but then she missed three times in a row and ran for cover.

It was a lot better balanced than the dust devil encounter, I admit, at least with regard to a possible first round tpk.

Shatteredtower
2010-08-31, 06:20 PM
Well, it's been only eight days, so I don't think this counts as thread necromancy. Something odd caught me eye today, though, so I felt it warranted a mention, just in case I'm not the only one confused by this.

It turns out that masterwork armors must be handled carefully in Dark Sun. Every single gith in the wild wears inix shell armor, listed as the equivalent of
wyrmscale armor in the PHB!

Since the typical gith have an armor class lower than 20, it's a safe bet that inix shell isn't giving them the masterwork armor bonus to AC. (If anything, some of them are more vulnerable than they should be for wearing scale mail, but let's chalk that up to the debilitating effects of their new environment.)

With that in mind, it seems likely you could cobble together basic armor from any of the materials that usually go into masterwork armor (well, save for things like templar mail, which probably wasn't made from real templars), not gaining the full benefits until you are eligible for the minimum level of enhancement required. Seems fair enough, though there are weird quirks. For example, inix shell armor will be better than braxat lord shell (equivalent to tarrasque plate) armor for about half your paragon and epic career.

On the plus side, there are more braxat lords than tarrasques...

I do wish they'd been clearer about what sort of carapace armor the human gladiator novice wore (examples listed for masterwork armors include both chain and plate). I think the chitin worn by human slavemasters and mul savages is meant to approximate hide, since it doesn't affect their movement rate and the only light armor listed that would be chitinous is kank ("hide") armor. And what's with the leopard (?) mantle (itself a leather armor type) worn by the Oba's judagas?

None of this is a big deal, but DMs should be aware of this before they throw gith at a party, or describe an antagonist as wearing mekillot shell. Or maybe this is another case of poor description, in which inix shell armor means one thing for masterwork armor and another for standard gith equipment.

I'd be amused if the explanation could be covered by words similar to those in the following quote.

ghost_warlock
2010-08-31, 10:10 PM
None of this is a big deal, but DMs should be aware of this before they throw gith at a party, or describe an antagonist as wearing mekillot shell. Or maybe this is another case of poor description, in which inix shell armor means one thing for masterwork armor and another for standard gith equipment.


Equipment listings for monsters/NPCs are fluff unless otherwise indicated by the treasure parcels the DM is handing out. :smallwink:

Shatteredtower
2010-08-31, 10:59 PM
Equipment listings for monsters/NPCs are fluff unless otherwise indicated by the treasure parcels the DM is handing out. :smallwink:

In a world... (I always wanted to do this) where weapon breakage is always an option... one monster's fluff... could spell the difference... between life...

...and death. :smallamused:

potatocubed
2010-09-01, 05:04 AM
To be honest I think it's just a handwavy thing. This armour is a leopard skin, it has the stats of leather. This armour is made of inix shell, it has the stats of plate. This armour is also made of inix shell, it's just better-made and the shell is a better quality, so it has the stats of Masterwork Scale Mail of Awesome +3.

It's all just part of the 4e trend of disconnecting the numbers from the descriptions - which, in this context, I'm okay with.

Shatteredtower
2010-09-01, 06:20 AM
The thing about the disconnect is that it can't perform as masterwork armor without high level magic or advanced martial training. Meanwhile, professional armorers can't produce a suit worthy of the materials. I prefer the idea there'd be no perceived or mechanical benefit to such suits prior to enchantment to that. It's not like there's any difference in cost between basic and masterwork materials when the benefits kick in, so there shouldn't be one sooner.

I also prefer it this way because the setting's gith shell armor, equal to gith plate, is named for the people. The idea of a culture reduced to savagery, yet still making superior armor despite inability to gain its full benefit, appeals to me. Is there a mechanical advantage to making +4 inix shell armor from a suit you aquired at 2nd level over creating a new suit?