Gems of Gaming

[Eloel]

HEY!

Ok, now that I have your attention;

Trying to find games that run on lower end systems got me thinking, and not many things make me think - thinking is hard.

What games would you consider gems? Genre-definers, classics, the usual 'must have' games. Not looking for the 'new with extraordinary graphics' games here. Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 is a great game - arguably the best shooter right now, but it's far from being a classic, let alone being a genre-definer.

If you decide to list, please note console games as such.

In my opinion, some of the 'classics' are; (listed with 'versions', because of a peak in gaming experience in the series. Example, for HoMM; the series peak at 3, then go downhill at 4)

Heroes of Might and Magic III (1999)
Age of Empires II (1999)
The Sims (2000)
Warcraft III (2002)
Worms: Armageddon (1999)
Quake III Arena (1999)
Lemmings (1991)
Diablo I/II (1997/2000)
Baldur's Gate I/II (1998/2000)
Dungeon Keeper (1997)
Command and Conquer: Red Alert (1996)
Homeworld (1999)
Counter Strike (1999)

Afternote: 1999 looks like a fruitful year.

[Zevox]

Super Mario Brothers 1/3 (2D Platformer, 1985/1988)
Mega Man 1-3 (2D Platformer, 1987/1988/1990)
Dragon Quest 1/3 (JRPG, 1986/1988)
Super Mario 64 (3D Platformer, 1996)
Final Fantasy 7 (JRPG, 1997) - Note: I have not played this, but I felt I had to include it due to its insane popularity and undeniable impact on the genre.
Banjo-Kazooie (3D Platformer/Adventure, 1998)
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Action/Adventure, 1998)
Starcaft (RTS, 1998)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (WRPG/Bioware, 2003)

Just the ones that come to mind quickly.

Zevox

[MrPig]

System Shock 2 (1999), which was further improved by Deus Ex (2000).
Dune 2 (1992) birthed the RTS genre
Ultima Underworld (1992).

[tarbrush]

The X-com series.

Civ 2's a bit dated now, but still a classic.

Uh...

Thinking is hard

[Comet]

The Monkey Island series, especially LeChuck's Revenge.
Adventure games, as a genre, are to me an absolute part of gaming at its finest. And Monkey Island 1 and 2 are very likely the best of their kind. I'm very glad that they were remade to work on modern audiovisual standards, everyone should check them out.

[Shadowleaf]

Baldur's Gate
Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast
Baldur's Gate 2
Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal
Braid
Chrono Trigger
Deus Ex
Diablo
Diablo 2
Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction
Final Fantasy VI
Mortal Kombat 2
Starcraft
Starcraft: Brood War
Warcraft II
Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal

[RS14]

Myst
Nethack
Close Combat
Fallout

[Ogremindes]

Hrumm. Important games...
My list:

Fallout
Myst
Chrono Trigger
Shin Megami Tensei III
Persona 3
Disgaea
Fallout 3
Elder Scrolls III

[d13]

* Grim Fandango (Graphic Adventure 1998)
* Grand Theft Auto 2 (Action 1999)


2c going there~

[Kane]

Second SS2.
Portal. They don't have to be old to be gems, people.
Star Control II: The Ur-Quan Masters (http://sc2.sourceforge.net/downloads.php) is often on 'best two dozen games of all time' lists, be it for writing, villains, music, whatever. (Legally free, too!)
Heroes of Might and Magic II, really, that was the first 'gem' in the series. (III is great too, but II is the one that makes me nostalgia hard.)
...
Super Mario Brothers. The original. Do-do-do-dodo-do-dododoot do do! Dodudodo!

[The_JJ]

Freespace and it's sequel were pretty damn awesome.

Alpha Centauri took the Civ format and perfected it, then tossed on an awesome story line and character for the lulz. In a TBS.

With Halo Bungie pretty much took the console FPS format and ran away with it. *flees haters*

Dwarf Fortress promises to be... something. God knows what, but something nonetheless.

You mentioned the big ones.

Everyone has a different favorite in the series, but the Total War Grand-to-Tactical TBS/RTS really sets it apart from the rest of the market. A TW tactical battle is very different than most other RTS's where you have bases and unit production on the same map as the battles. Plus it pays (a little) more attention to realism, what with morale and the importance of flanking/charging/terrain/commanders.

[Rowsen]

Final Fantasy V, while not bringing anything really new to the table, was still a fantastic game.



Afternote: 1999 looks like a fruitful year.
Which is why we party like it's....well you know the rest.

[factotum]

Gems? The following spring immediately to mind:

Elite (1984)--the original space trading and combat game that spawned many variants down the years, right up to and including the most recent X3: Terran Conflict.

TIE Fighter (1994)--one of the best mission-based space combat sims you'll ever find, and it's Star Wars, so what's not to like?

Freespace 2 (1999)--took the ball left by TIE Fighter and ran with it. Until you've felt the terror of flying through a nebula with almost zero visibility and suddenly hearing a capital ship's beam cannon warming up somewhere nearby, you've not played games! :smallwink:

Ultima 7: The Black Gate (1992)--the peak of the Ultima series, IMHO; the point at which the storyline, the graphics, and the gameplay meshed most delightfully. It was only downhill after this.

[Tengu_temp]

So many posts and Planescape: Torment wasn't mentioned yet? Preposterous! If anyone thinks that video games are not art or capable of serious storytelling, show him this game.

[UnChosenOne]

I notice disturding lack of the Thief II: the Metal Age (2000) in this thread.

[The Succubus]

Yes, of course, because gaming didn't exist before the birth of consoles...*roll eyes*

What about quality 8-bit gaming from the days of the Spectrum, C64, Amstrad CPC and so on? That's where you'll find *true* classics. Classics like Arkanoid, Dizzy, Total Eclipse, Castle Master, the original R-Type, Xenon, TEXT ADVENTURES!

You no good punk kids. Get the hell off my lawn.

[factotum]

I already included a game from 1984 in my list, just how far back do you want to go? :smallwink:

[Cespenar]

Master of Magic (1995)
Master of Orion II (1996)
The Longest Journey (1999)
Full Throttle (1995)
Command & Conquer (1995)
Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee (1997)
Ultima Online (1997)
Grand Theft Auto (1997)

Frakkin' Prince of Persia (1990!)

[Phase]

Noticeable lack of:

Half-Life (1998)
Half-Life 2 (2004)

Most other worthy titles have been mentioned.

[The Succubus]

A game which *every* RPG owes a massive debt to - the first ever graphical RPG. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bard%27s_Tale_(1985_video_game))

[Ogremindes]

A game which *every* RPG owes a massive debt to - the first ever graphical RPG. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bard%27s_Tale_(1985_video_game))

The Bard's Tale isn't the first ever graphical RPG. Seems the first ever would be pedit5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedit5).

[Knaight]

Dominions 3 (2006) - A genre defining Fantasy 4X game. Even if the learning curve is a wall.
Battle for Wesnoth - Give it time, it will become a classic.

[Martok]

Shogun Total War
Medieval Total War
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Call of Duty (the original)

[Bayar]

Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun
Soul Reaver
Hostile Waters
Gunlok

[Oregano]

Soul Calibur
Super Mario Galaxy
SaGa(FF Legend)
Pokémon Red and Blue
Tetris
Golden Sun(?)
Goldeneye
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater

[SparkMandriller]

What about quality 8-bit gaming from the days of the Spectrum, C64, Amstrad CPC and so on? That's where you'll find *true* classics. Classics like Arkanoid, Dizzy, Total Eclipse, Castle Master, the original R-Type, Xenon, TEXT ADVENTURES!

You do realise that R-Type 3 and Delta were way better than the original R-Type, right? Because they are, and they're console games.

[Flickerdart]

Worms World Party is better than Armageddon.

[Smight]

Emperor of the Fading Suns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_the_Fading_Suns)

[Eldariel]

Mostly rehashing, but awesome games I'd still have everyone play through if I had my way (not looking at the historical value):

Aliens vs Predator
Baldur's Gate I & II + Throne of Bhaal
Chrono Trigger
Civilization 4
Close Combat II
Combat Mission II
Diablo II
Fallout
Fallout II
Final Fantasy VI
Falcon 4.0
Freespace 2
Grim Fandango
Ground Control
Half-Life
I-War
Jagged Alliance 2
Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Master of Orion II
Mass Effect I & II
Medieval: Total War
Megaman II
Metal Gear Solid
Resident Evil II
Secrets of the Monkey Island 1 - 4
Starcraft: Brood War
Starcraft II
Super Mario Bros 1, 3, World, 64 & Galaxy
Super Street Fighter II Turbo
System Shock II
TIE Fighter
The Witcher
Warcraft III

[Mando Knight]

Sonic 3 & Knuckles. This is the game most fans go back to when they look at what they want in a Sonic game. For good reason.

[Reinboom]

Worms World Party is better than Armageddon.

If just going with the default install? True.
If going beyond that? Not true.

Worms: Armageddon has a larger modding community AND keeps getting patches (albeit extremely slowly) from Team17. Post patch, it has nearly everything WWP does and yet still has the larger community to back it further.


Anyways, more gems:
Eye of the Beholder 2 (1991 - PC/Amiga) (EotB 1 as well, but to a much lesser extent)
Mordor: The Depths of Dejenol (1995 - PC)
The Settlers II: Veni, Vidi, Vici (1996 - PC/Mac) (Remake: 2006 - PC...maybe mac) (Strange port: 2007 - Nintendo DS)
Stars! 2.5x / 2.60 / 2.70 (1995 - PC)
NetStorm: Islands at War (1997 - PC) (This one is a very unique take on RTS. Sadly, because of problems surrounding it pertaining to hacking the demo to make it a full version, the game couldn't sustain profit :smallfrown:. The game has since been made free, though.)
Ogre Battle The March of the Black Queen (SNES)
Mega Man X3 (SNES/Saturn/Playstation - collection on PS2)
Mega Man X4 (Playstation... and I think Saturn - collection on PS2)
Secret of Mana (SNES) (Would say Seiken Densetsu 3 as well, but... it doesn't work with a multitap. Which makes it a flawed gem to me.)
Earthbound (SNES)
Bahamut Lagoon (Super Famicom - Japanese only though...)
Bubble Bobble part 2 (NES)
Adventure Island 2 (NES)
Dragon Quest/Warrior 3 (NES)


Uh, and a bunch already mentioned. Plus some more. :smalltongue:

:edit:
:edit-edit:
Kitties. <.< >.>

[BridgeCity]

Pitball (1996) Not Pitfall with an F, Pitball with a B
Blood Omen - Legacy of Kain (1996)
Warhammer - Dark Omen (1998)

Three games that have stayed on my shelf for years. They all get played every few months too, so they definately count as gems for me.

Pitball especially is, for me, one of the greatest games ever made. How can you not love motorbike riding minotaurs playing ancient Greek gorillas at a space-age version of an old aztec basketball-style game?

[Cespenar]

NetStorm: Islands at War (1997 - PC) (This one is a very unique take on RTS. Sadly, because of problems surrounding it pertaining to hacking the demo to make it a full version, the game couldn't sustain profit :smallfrown:. The game has since been made free, though.)


Didn't think anyone knew this. Nice. And seconded.

[Artanis]

What, nobody's mentioned Pong yet? It doesn't get more historically significant than Pong.


For "must-have" games, I will add and/or second any mentions of:
*StarCraft (and Brood War)
*System Shock 1&2
*X-Com
*The Half-Life series

For genre-defining stuff, I'll also say:
*Doom
*Halo
*World of Warcraft (Even if you hate it, you can't argue with what it did for MMOs.)

I'm sure I'll kick myself when I think of some later.

[Jonzac]

Mostly rehashing, but awesome games I'd still have everyone play through if I had my way (not looking at the historical value):

Aliens vs Predator
Baldur's Gate I & II + Throne of Bhaal
Chrono Trigger
Civilization 4
Close Combat II
Combat Mission II
Diablo II
Fallout
Fallout II
Final Fantasy VI
Falcon 4.0
Freespace 2
Grim Fandango
Ground Control
Half-Life
I-War
Jagged Alliance 2
Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Master of Orion II
Mass Effect I & II
Medieval: Total War
Megaman II
Metal Gear Solid
Resident Evil II
Secrets of the Monkey Island 1 - 4
Starcraft: Brood War
Starcraft II
Super Mario Bros 1, 3, World, 64 & Galaxy
Super Street Fighter II Turbo
System Shock II
TIE Fighter
The Witcher
Warcraft III


Bold, italics and underlined for AWESOMENESS!!!! CM: Overlord, Barborssa to Berlin and Afrika Korp were the highlight of 3-d tactical World War II gaming.

Eld...I've seen the new CM:Normandy...prepare to get your socks blown off.

[Suzuro]

Someone mentioned Earthbound and I have to throw in:

Mother 3 (2006)


-Suzuro

[Gamerlord]

SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. SPACE EMPRIES IV. SPACE EMPIRES IV. (2000) IF YOU DO NOT OWN THIS GAME AND CALL YOURSELF A TBS 4X SCI-FI FAN YOU ARE AN UNCLEAN HERETIC THAT MUST DIE. :smalltongue:
Also, HOMMIII. (1999)
Many others I have, but too busy to think.

[Eldariel]

Bold, italics and underlined for AWESOMENESS!!!! CM: Overlord, Barborssa to Berlin and Afrika Korp were the highlight of 3-d tactical World War II gaming.

Eld...I've seen the new CM:Normandy...prepare to get your socks blown off.

I'm with you, brother. Combat Missions have been some of the best (and most underplayed) games ever and I'm fully willing to believe Normandy will be a godsent.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

I still play Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds from time to time. And Heroes of Might and Magic 3. And, my perennial favorite, Planescape: Torment.

Also, let's give a big round of applause to LucasArts for rereleasing Monkey Islands 1 and 2!


Slightly off-topic:
Y'know, what the mod community needs to do is a really solid Planescape game on the BG2 engine. The only storytelling flaw in Torment (there are a fair few gameplay flaws fixed in BG2) is that you don't get to make a character from scratch. Fortunately, the story in PS:T is very specific to the Nameless One, and wouldn't work with anyone else. But an all-new Planescape story? Anyone with mod skills want to tackle that? I'll help write it!

[Cespenar]

I don't believe that to be a storytelling flaw. At worst, it can be a gameplay flaw. To me, for example, it's not a flaw at all.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

No, like I said, the game makes it work. But Planescape is so big, I'd love to start from scratch, build my own hero. Wouldn't work in Torment's story, though. That's for the Nameless One alone.

[Cespenar]

Oh, 'kay then. :smallsmile:

I totally second the PS:T in BG2 engine idea, by the way. That's a great if somewhat forgotten engine, and if any game would deserve a sequel (or another game in the same setting), it would be PS:T.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

Oh, 'kay then. :smallsmile:

I totally second the PS:T in BG2 engine idea, by the way. That's a great if somewhat forgotten engine, and if any game would deserve a sequel (or another game in the same setting), it would be PS:T.

And if not a direct sequel, just... just something Planescape. But definitely with some Torment-y cameos. Dak'kon, Annah, Fell, etc.

Also, just to tease/enrage all the Torment fans out there--though this might be common knowledge, I don't know--there was almost going to be a Dak'kon spinoff, in which he travels around the planes to unite the Githzerai against the Mind Flayers or some such. Don't remember exactly, but the project died in pre-pre-production stages. Probably had something to do with no one buying Torment. :(

[dsmiles]

Personal choices:

MoM (PC)
Star Ocean II: Till the End of Time (PS2)
Myst (MAC/PC)
SPORE (MAC/PC)

[Karoht]

Valkyrie Profile. The Original bye Enix and Tri-Ace. Sequal can go to heck and die. Curse you Squaresoft for ruining the sequal. Curse you!
For the record I have not liked anything published by Square since they became SquareEnix. Not one thing.
But yes, great game, multiple endings, awesome battle system for the time, very character driven plot. The sequal got rid of all the things that made the first game great, and turned it into another generic JRPG of the time. Flashy 3D but piss poor story, no character development aside from the main 4 characters, and a Square-a-fied combat engine. Snoozefest. Sequal ruined any interest in the franchise, so it's effectively dead thanks to Square.

Tyrian was an awesome arcade shooter with some early RPG elements. Loads of replay modes, a story to follow, lots of secrets and hidden stuff, fun cheat codes. Amazing for the times, and decent graphics for the day.

Descent I and II. I loved those games to pieces. I have yet to see a spiritual successor to it's gameplay. 1st person shooter, but with 3D environments. Think Doom crossed with a flight sim. So awesome.

[Reinboom]

Your hate of square is very... oddly aimed. :smallconfused:
Even on just the Enix / Square side of things, Enix had the controlling number of shares in that deal. It was mostly Enix buying a new president and an amazing animation studio.

Of course, that doesn't really even matter. Valkyrie Profile wasn't developed in-house by Enix / Squareenix. It was developed by Tri-Ace. Tri-Ace is chained to Enix, sure - but their development team is still mostly independent.

Look at the credits between Valkyrie Profile and Valkyrie Profile 2:
Game Designer: Masaki Norimoto (both games)
Lead Programmer: Shigeru Ueki (both games)
Director of VP1: Yoshiharu Gotanda
Director of VP2: Takayuki Suguro (oh, a difference!)
Lead R&D Programmer of VP2: Yoshiharu Gotanda (oh wait, there he is again)
...

I mean, they lost the Yoshinari twins as character designers. Losing twins always spells bad news. Especially these two, their resumes are quite solid.
However... they also got people like Yasushi Otake from Edgeworks for a scenario designer. Who has just a solid resume (Shenmue, Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2).

For main story and gameplay direction, I can see nobody from Squareenix in VP2.




-ehrm-
Some more significant games:

Sim City 2000 (PC/SNES/Playstation...)
Harvest Moon (SNES)
Ikaruga (GC)

[Karoht]

Your hate of square is very... oddly aimed. :smallconfused:
Even on just the Enix / Square side of things, Enix had the controlling number of shares in that deal. It was mostly Enix buying a new president and an amazing animation studio.

Of course, that doesn't really even matter. Valkyrie Profile wasn't developed in-house by Enix / Squareenix. It was developed by Tri-Ace. Tri-Ace is chained to Enix, sure - but their development team is still mostly independent.

Look at the credits between Valkyrie Profile and Valkyrie Profile 2:
Game Designer: Masaki Norimoto (both games)
Lead Programmer: Shigeru Ueki (both games)
Director of VP1: Yoshiharu Gotanda
Director of VP2: Takayuki Suguro (oh, a difference!)
Lead R&D Programmer of VP2: Yoshiharu Gotanda (oh wait, there he is again)
...

I mean, they lost the Yoshinari twins as character designers. Losing twins always spells bad news. Especially these two, their resumes are quite solid.
However... they also got people like Yasushi Otake from Edgeworks for a scenario designer. Who has just a solid resume (Shenmue, Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2).


That doesn't explain the pants on head retarded changes they made. Pretty much everyone in the VP2 community has blamed the suck being cranked to 11 on executive meddling (*cough*Square*cough*), and there are some pretty blatant Square-ism's added to the game as compaired to the first.

Also, original gameplay photos pegged the game with the same battle system as before. Then SquareEnix merged, the game went into development hell, and emerged the piece of junk it is. Smells like Square to me.


For main story and gameplay direction, I can see nobody from Squareenix in VP2.I see SquareEnix on the box. They're involved. They don't need to be in the credits to send memo's down to the dev team to say 'include this feature or else.' The CEO of Fox doesn't put his name in the movie credits for example.

[Reinboom]

That doesn't explain the pants on head retarded changes they made. Pretty much everyone in the VP2 community has blamed the suck being cranked to 11 on executive meddling (*cough*Square*cough*), and there are some pretty blatant Square-ism's added to the game as compaired to the first.

Also, original gameplay photos pegged the game with the same battle system as before. Then SquareEnix merged, the game went into development hell, and emerged the piece of junk it is. Smells like Square to me.

I see SquareEnix on the box. They're involved. They don't need to be in the credits to send memo's down to the dev team to say 'include this feature or else.' The CEO of Fox doesn't put his name in the movie credits for example.

Development teams can screw up.
Also, production studios can hold and press a lot of influence on the development studios designing for them... but usually, it simply doesn't work that way.

Star Ocean: The Last Hope doesn't show "square-isms", yet is another Tri-Ace game after the merger.
The Dragon Quest games stayed as the cliche-ridden "with a twist" Enix shenanigans they were.
Drakengard changed little through production, even post merger.

Even on the executive placement of games, who controls which sections is not setup that way.
Yosuke Saito, one of the 10 executive production heads, is the person in control of the production team for anything not developed in house. Yosuke Saito is from the Enix side of the merger.


Finally, what appears on the box doesn't necessarily mean anything but who can market it.
Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4 [EU], Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 [J], Quantum of Solace [J], Odin Sphere [EU], Call of Duty: Black Ops [J]...
all have Square Enix on the box.

:edit:
When you get production teams influencing the development of games by a different studio, it usually becomes much more silly. Development teams rarely move on their work. When they do, it comes up in small forms, such as:
DRM (UbiSoft/EA being the big ones known for this)
Minor censoring (a younger, but still very damn old, Nintendo was known for this. See: Coffee houses that get you drunk.)

You do NOT see things such as battle systems changing from production influence. Especially not on hits such as Valkyrie Profile.

[SparkMandriller]

Ikaruga (GC)

Go play Mars Matrix.

[Mando Knight]

For the record I have not liked anything published by Square since they became SquareEnix. Not one thing.
So you don't have the DS remakes of the classic (S)NES Squenix RPGs (Several Dragon Quest games, Final Fantasy III and IV), then? Or their newest title, Dragon Quest IX? They're all ridiculously solid games, especially FFIVDS and DQIX.

[fknm]

Mostly sticking so stuff from the '80s/'90s

NES:
Super C
Mega Man 2
The Legend of Zelda
Castlevania 3
Ninja Gaiden

SNES:
Super Mario World
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Mega Man X
Castlevania: Dracula X (most underrated game in the series, and WAAAAY better than Castlevania 4)
Contra 3: The Alien Wars

Sega Genesis:
Ghouls and Ghosts
Castlevania: Bloodlines
Dynamite Headdy (possibly the most under-appreciated platformer ever!)
Contra: Hard Corps

PC:
Doom/Doom 2/Final Doom (seriously, where's the love for this classic in this thread?)
Quake (yes, the original was the best- after id lost Romero, it all went downhill...)
System Shock 2
Unreal
Ultima VII
Realms of Arkania: Star Trail
Eye of the Beholder
Dungeon Master
Darklands
Fallout
Planescape: Torment
Total Annihilation
Starcraft/Brood War
Alpha Centauri
X:Com UFO Defense
Jagged Alliance 2

[Clintodon]

Hostile Waters: Antaeus Rising. Found this one on Good Old Games, and it's probably the best $6 I ever spent on a game. I really can't understand why it didn't become well-known - the gameplay is great. Your units have unique personalities with good voice-acting (and no, I don't mean Starcraft-style "personalities" - in this game, your "unit cap" is the number of operators you have for your vehicles, and each of them has different specialties). The graphics aren't horrible either, considering the game's age. Link here (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/hostile_waters_antaeus_rising).

P.S. As for the plot - its premise suffers from Fridge Logic, but it still works well to tie the missions together, and I thought that the plot twist more than made up for the beginning. At the least, it tried doing something a bit different.

P.P.S. Two other things that I forgot to mention. First, you design your vehicles from a selection of chassis (helicopter, hovercraft, and so on), weapon, and add-ons such as extra armor. Reminds me of Mechwarrior, though with fewer options (you do get more choices as the game progresses).

The other aspect is probably the most fun - in addition to acting as commander, you can take over any of your vehicles and get into combat personally! I've never tried any of the Mech commander games, but from a Mechwarrior 3 standpoint it's a bit like playing using the "small" units and no mechs.

Bottom line - I strongly recommend this game. After trying it, I'd have been willing to shell out $20 for this. If a remake or similar game comes out, I'd buy it as well!

[Karoht]

So you don't have the DS remakes of the classic (S)NES Squenix RPGs (Several Dragon Quest games, Final Fantasy III and IV), then? Or their newest title, Dragon Quest IX? They're all ridiculously solid games, especially FFIVDS and DQIX.

Never played any of the Dragon Quest series, don't own a DS, and remakes really don't count, as there is minimal work put into them, and Square wouldn't dare mess with their old games too much for fear of a fan backlash.

[Reinboom]

Never played any of the Dragon Quest series, don't own a DS, and remakes really don't count, as there is minimal work put into them, and Square wouldn't dare mess with their old games too much for fear of a fan backlash.

I'm not sure how you can state that...
I would not call the complete remakes of Final Fantasy III and IV "minimal".
The amount of reshuffling that they did... only to be heavily praised by their fan base for doing so and being encouraged to do more. :smalltongue:

Also, you complain about Squareisms in the merger and yet never played the DQ series? Oi.
Square had classically borrowed an immense amount of ideas from the Enix in the earlier days. And vice versa. DQ and FF are quite... parallel.
DQ just wished to be much more carefree and tried different ways of tweaking the same old story into something new while FF tried more of different ways of tweaking the same old mechanics into something new.

[Karoht]

I'm not sure how you can state that...
I would not call the complete remakes of Final Fantasy III and IV "minimal".
The amount of reshuffling that they did... only to be heavily praised by their fan base for doing so and being encouraged to do more. :smalltongue:

Also, you complain about Squareisms in the merger and yet never played the DQ series? Oi.
Square had classically borrowed an immense amount of ideas from the Enix in the earlier days. And vice versa. DQ and FF are quite... parallel.
DQ just wished to be much more carefree and tried different ways of tweaking the same old story into something new while FF tried more of different ways of tweaking the same old mechanics into something new.

Wow, I'm just plain not allowed to like or dislike something am I?
Remakes are remakes. They don't completely redraw the map, recolor the entire game, totally change how the game is played. It's the same system with maybe a graphics upgrade and an upgrade on the engine overall (load times and whatnot), not them going back to the drawing board and recreating an entire game from scratch.

Mind you, I find it strange that they'll listen to their fans for the remakes of the same 6 games, yet refuse to remake one of their best sellers ever, FF7. It's as if they're stuck in a time warp or something. Not that I liked the game, I just find this odd.

For the record, I absolutely loved FF6 (never played any of the others before it) I dislike FF7, love 8, dislike 9, love X, and absolutely despise everything from then on. Especially X-2, 12 and 13.



========
Another series of note:
Ratchet and Clank if it hasn't been mentioned. Character progression in all the games, loads of weapons, some awesome joke weapons like the Suck Cannon and the Quack-o-Ray and the Sheepinator. Tools of Destruction started off an awesome story, and Crack in Time did an amazing conclusion of that story. Great puzzles, flawlessly tuned difficulty in regular and challenge modes, ever increasing graphics, awesome villians, Captain Quark, and some of the best video game humor I've ever seen, all come together to make an amazing series of games.
Though Ratchet and Clank: All for One does looks a bit iffy.

[PhoeKun]

Wow, I'm just plain not allowed to like or dislike something am I?
Remakes are remakes. They don't completely redraw the map, recolor the entire game, totally change how the game is played. It's the same system with maybe a graphics upgrade and an upgrade on the engine overall (load times and whatnot), not them going back to the drawing board and recreating an entire game from scratch.

Mind you, I find it strange that they'll listen to their fans for the remakes of the same 6 games, yet refuse to remake one of their best sellers ever, FF7. It's as if they're stuck in a time warp or something. Not that I liked the game, I just find this odd.

For the record, I absolutely loved FF6 (never played any of the others before it) I dislike FF7, love 8, dislike 9, love X, and absolutely despise everything from then on. Especially X-2, 12 and 13.

There's plenty of criticism to be leveled at Squeenix for choices they've made in recent years, but a large portion of your ranting is based on flat out misinformation. What you're doing isn't just disliking something so much as seeing red every time you glance at a particular label, without care or consideration for the reasons why there might me a problem.

This has a tendency to ruffle feathers.



========
Another series of note:
Ratchet and Clank if it hasn't been mentioned. Character progression in all the games, loads of weapons, some awesome joke weapons like the Suck Cannon and the Quack-o-Ray and the Sheepinator. Tools of Destruction started off an awesome story, and Crack in Time did an amazing conclusion of that story. Great puzzles, flawlessly tuned difficulty in regular and challenge modes, ever increasing graphics, awesome villians, Captain Quark, and some of the best video game humor I've ever seen, all come together to make an amazing series of games.
Though Ratchet and Clank: All for One does looks a bit iffy.

A fantastic example of what can be done with a cat, a bunch of guns, and some imagination. I will have faith in the Ratchet and Clank series until they finally deliver a bad title. And even then they've built up enough good will that I'm willing to chalk that up to an unfortunate coincidence.

[Karoht]

There's plenty of criticism to be leveled at Squeenix for choices they've made in recent years, but a large portion of your ranting is based on flat out misinformation. What you're doing isn't just disliking something so much as seeing red every time you glance at a particular label, without care or consideration for the reasons why there might me a problem.

So what, now a company that puts it's name on a product is no longer responsible for that product? Suddenly I'm confused.
If SquareEnix isn't responsible for Valkyrie Profile 2, why is their name on it? Moreover, if Tri-Ace developed it, why isn't their name more prominently on it? Lastly, am I to believe that Tri-Ace, who have been responsible for other good games, suddenly and completely did a reversal of quality and gameplay, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the guys (Square and Enix) who's names are prominentely displayed on the box? Or the fact that Enix put out plenty of good games up until the merger, at which the suck nob was promptly turned up? And it has nothing to do with the other guys (Square) they merged with? Sorry, I don't buy that, and I've yet to see an arguement presented which has disuaded me otherwise.

Let me break down my opinion a bit better for everyone.
Enix/Tri-Ace-Prior to merger, pumping out some great games.
Square-Not doing so great after FF6, some hit and miss games, some outright crap.
SquareEnix-Pumping out some real garbage now, and previously awesome franchises appears to be contaminated.
What conclusion would you draw? Think of it like a math problem. If you have 2 variables doing fine on their own, then another variable comes along and suddenly the formula goes south, which variable do you scrutinize?
Enix = Good
Tri-Ace = Good
Enix + Tri-Ace = Good
Square = ?
Square + Enix + Tri-ace = Not good.

I have every reason not to like Square so far as I see. They never really put out any games I was all that interested in, they were hit and miss on the FF series for me, and now they put out complete junk.




A fantastic example of what can be done with a cat, a bunch of guns, and some imagination.This was almost signature worthy. Now I want to go find some cats and give them a bunch of guns.
Also, might just be me but I don't think of the Lombax's as cats so much as related (in artistic spirit) to foxes, particularly the large ear variety. Especially General Alistyr Azimuth.

[Reinboom]

So what, now a company that puts it's name on a product is no longer responsible for that product?

Yay! You figured it out! :smallbiggrin:

Now, I'll go back to playing Modern Warfare 2. :smallsmile:
http://getnews.jp/img/archives/001223.jpg

[PhoeKun]

So what, now a company that puts it's name on a product is no longer responsible for that product? Suddenly I'm confused.
If SquareEnix isn't responsible for Valkyrie Profile 2, why is their name on it? Moreover, if Tri-Ace developed it, why isn't their name more prominently on it? Lastly, am I to believe that Tri-Ace, who have been responsible for other good games, suddenly and completely did a reversal of quality and gameplay, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the guys (Square and Enix) who's names are prominentely displayed on the box? Or the fact that Enix put out plenty of good games up until the merger, at which the suck nob was promptly turned up? And it has nothing to do with the other guys (Square) they merged with? Sorry, I don't buy that, and I've yet to see an arguement presented which has disuaded me otherwise.

The presence of the name of a company on a game box is not a symbol of their involvement in its creation, but only of their right to market it in the region that game appears in (see example: that Call of Duty box SweetRein just showed). Square-Enix is responsible for Valkyrie Profile 2 insomuch as Tri-Ace is responsible for Valkyrie Profile 2, and Tri-Ace is basically a development studio for Enix, which purchased Squaresoft prior to the production of the game.

VP2 was created by the same dev team as VP1 with a few minor changes, but in almost all cases those changes were adding people who previously worked for Enix. Not Squaresoft. Enix. It was an all Enix/Tri-Ace team, and Enix is the one with the controlling interest in the company known as Square-Enix, because Enix bought Square. The executive in charge of meddling with VP2 was an Enix man. Yes, the game went south from its lofty origins, but sometimes this just happens. You're looking at the situation through a pair of very biased lenses and looking for correlations that imply causation without really stopping to fact check.



Let me break down my opinion a bit better for everyone.
Enix/Tri-Ace-Prior to merger, pumping out some great games.
Square-Not doing so great after FF6, some hit and miss games, some outright crap.
SquareEnix-Pumping out some real garbage now, and previously awesome franchises appears to be contaminated.
What conclusion would you draw? Think of it like a math problem. If you have 2 variables doing fine on their own, then another variable comes along and suddenly the formula goes south, which variable do you scrutinize?
Enix = Good
Tri-Ace = Good
Enix + Tri-Ace = Good
Square = ?
Square + Enix + Tri-ace = Not good.

A short list of games made by Squaresoft post Final Fantasy VI that fall somewhere in the range of good to great (going an extra step farther and excluding all Final Fantasy related titles):

Live a Live
Chrono Trigger
Seiken Densetsu 3
Secret of Evermore
Bahamut Lagoon
Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
Xenogears
Parasite Eve
Brave Fencer Musashi
Chrono Cross
Parasite Eve II
Vagrant Story
Kingdom Hearts

All of this from the fall of 1994 to the spring of 2002.

And mind you, Enix's old flagship series DragonQuest has undergone a massive revival post-merger, with the newer titles in the series being better than they have been in years, and arguably ever. Plus there's titles like Dissidia and Crisis Core, which are great. They're not incapable of making good games, it's just dependent on the dev teams to do their jobs.




I have every reason not to like Square so far as I see. They never really put out any games I was all that interested in, they were hit and miss on the FF series for me, and now they put out complete junk.

One of the massively unfortunate aspects of the merger is that the president of Squaresoft became the president of Square-Enix. And that man is a colossal idiot. Who is on record as saying that a remake of Final Fantasy 7 would take 11 years (...what?) and that he is only interested in developing hand-held games for the iPad. And I can agree that it certainly feels like there are fewer quality titles released by the company in the present day. I don't want to argue against your right to dislike Square-Enix, particularly when there's plenty of valid reasons to be upset with them. The only issue at debate here is the degree to which one portion of the company can be blamed, and whether or not it was the act of the buyout that disrupted the company.



This was almost signature worthy. Now I want to go find some cats and give them a bunch of guns.
Also, might just be me but I don't think of the Lombax's as cats so much as related (in artistic spirit) to foxes, particularly the large ear variety. Especially General Alistyr Azimuth.

Almost? Blast, I'll have to try harder. Next time, Gadget. Next time...

I suppose this is shaky evidence at best, but there's a moment in the beginning of A Crack in Time where a Fongoid child refers to Ratchet as a 'kitty'. I have kitty bias. Therefore, kitty. Meow meow.

[Bayar]

Hostile Waters: Antaeus Rising. Found this one on Good Old Games, and it's probably the best $6 I ever spent on a game. I really can't understand why it didn't become well-known - the gameplay is great. Your units have unique personalities with good voice-acting (and no, I don't mean Starcraft-style "personalities" - in this game, your "unit cap" is the number of operators you have for your vehicles, and each of them has different specialties). The graphics aren't horrible either, considering the game's age. Link here (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/hostile_waters_antaeus_rising).

P.S. As for the plot - its premise suffers from Fridge Logic, but it still works well to tie the missions together, and I thought that the plot twist more than made up for the beginning. At the least, it tried doing something a bit different.

P.P.S. Two other things that I forgot to mention. First, you design your vehicles from a selection of chassis (helicopter, hovercraft, and so on), weapon, and add-ons such as extra armor. Reminds me of Mechwarrior, though with fewer options (you do get more choices as the game progresses).

The other aspect is probably the most fun - in addition to acting as commander, you can take over any of your vehicles and get into combat personally! I've never tried any of the Mech commander games, but from a Mechwarrior 3 standpoint it's a bit like playing using the "small" units and no mechs.

Bottom line - I strongly recommend this game. After trying it, I'd have been willing to shell out $20 for this. If a remake or similar game comes out, I'd buy it as well!

Yeah, the game is awesome. As far as popularity goes...Rage did a couple of great games that don't get mentioned all that much in lists such as this for some reason. I mean, when was the last time anyone heard of the game called Incoming ? (no, not Incoming Forces, the sequel).

[Karoht]

Yay! You figured it out! :smallbiggrin:
Right, I'll remember that the next time the Chinese decide that using lead in baby bottles is a good idea.

[ZeroNumerous]

For the record, I absolutely loved FF6 (never played any of the others before it) I dislike FF7, love 8, dislike 9, love X, and absolutely despise everything from then on. Especially X-2, 12 and 13.

If you hated Tactics, then you may be an alien. :smalltongue:

[Zen Master]

Hm .... well if no one else is willing to say it out loud, I will:

World of Warcraft.

There are other games I've loved more - but none that have kept me entertained for as long.

Others that would go on my 'best of all time' list would be:

Planescape: Torment
Deus Ex
System Shock
Fallout
Elite
X-Com
Populous
Dungeon Keeper

[Drascin]

If you hated Tactics, then you may be an alien. :smalltongue:

Not necessarily. I personally am unable to play Tactics unless it's in an emulator with frameskip set to about five. Alternatively, playing it while also playing something else on the side. Seriously, that game is slow :smalltongue:.

[Karoht]

If you hated Tactics, then you may be an alien. :smalltongue:

^
...seriously, what is it with Square fans telling people what they should like, else they are strange and different?

And for the record, I rather coldly disliked Tactics. Incredibly slow game is slooooooooow. Neat idea, I just never got into it. Maybe if I'd played it past hour 30, like Final Fantasy 13...
Then again I'm not a fan of Fire Emblem either. I like turn based strategy, just not those games.

[Kane]

So question, is this FF:Tactics, or Tactics advanced?

I hold nothing but scorn for Advanced. Tactics, however, was fantastic.

[Cespenar]

Advanced is enjoyable, in its more lighthearted way. You just shouldn't expect it to be Tactics, that's all.

Besides, I'm angry at Tactics because of some of the missions' "You should have done more grinding, fool!" difficulty (by which I'm sure someone will tell me that there weren't such levels and the game was a walk in the park).

[Kane]

Advanced is enjoyable, in its more lighthearted way. You just shouldn't expect it to be Tactics, that's all.

Besides, I'm angry at Tactics because of some of the missions' "You should have done more grinding, fool!" difficulty (by which I'm sure someone will tell me that there weren't such levels and the game was a walk in the park).

Wieeeeeee-graf! That when you aren't prepared, and/or aren't used to the whole jrpg mentality, that is so horrible... And then the ******* fight on the roof. That's right, Rafa, run up, get yourself Stop'd, killed, and lose me the fight. First turn. I didn't even get to go.

You aren't alone.

[Drascin]

Advanced is enjoyable, in its more lighthearted way. You just shouldn't expect it to be Tactics, that's all.

Besides, I'm angry at Tactics because of some of the missions' "You should have done more grinding, fool!" difficulty (by which I'm sure someone will tell me that there weren't such levels and the game was a walk in the park).

What this man said. I honestly enjoy the mechanical side a lot more in Advance - especially Advance 2. Yeah, the story of the first FFTA is really bad, and the second has no story to speak of, but more classes, varied races, greater speed, and general niceness made it so I clocked a lot more hours in the first Advance than I ever did in the original Tactics.

[Zocelot]

I don't know if it's a "Gem of Gaming" but The World Ends With You is a fantastic game, one of my favorites, and a bit of a cult classic.

[Artanis]

Hm .... well if no one else is willing to say it out loud, I will:

World of Warcraft.

I said it, so you aren't alone in considering it a "gem".

[Zen Master]

I said it, so you aren't alone in considering it a "gem".

Oops - sorry, I musta missed that.

[Gamerlord]

Also, star wars republic commando. Short, but sweet. And downright vicious at points.