[3.5 & MtG] The Planeswalker (PEACH!!)

[jokey665]

I've been working on this for a while, and after taking a break to work on other things, I'm starting to come back to it. It's a big project; I'm planning on turning it into a full-fledged homebrew sourcebook at some point when I'm satisfied with it.

I'm not going to attempt to reformat the information, because it's already formatted in a way that makes sense to me on Google docs. It is (read: should be, let me know if it isn't) open for anyone to read, so here are the links:

The Planeswalker (Base Class) (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcAugfauJp7uZGM3amZzNzZfMjMzNzkyemhjY3Q&hl=en&authkey=CIimxcEM)

Planeswalker Feats (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcAugfauJp7uZGM3amZzNzZfMjMwZG5uZ2ZwZHY&hl=en)
Prestige Classes for the Planeswalker (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8AugfauJp7uOTMxYmQ2YjUtYjRmYS00YWYzLTgwZ TEtNjBkMDIxZTRiMGRm&hl=en&authkey=CJ_DmaQG) (Includes preliminary book formatting)

Planeswalker Spell List (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8AugfauJp7uZWMwYjg2MmUtNjI2Yy00Y2IyLWE4N jItMDhlZmQ1OGFjZjU1&hl=en&authkey=CLzPm-IG)
Planeswalker Spell Descriptions (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8AugfauJp7uNGE4NjAwYWItYzhiYi00YWM5LWEyM zAtMGU2M2MwYzQ0ZTI0&hl=en&authkey=CKCs8MQG) (The list of spells at the beginning is the list of spells I'm currently working on)

.rar with all the above files as well as a few more thrown in for good measure. (http://www.multiupload.com/G4TVB3ZKII)

Stats:
Spells
White: 34
Blue: 47
Black: 29
Red: 47
Green: 42
Multi: 70
Total: 269

Items
Armor: 0
Weapons: 3
Clothing: 0
Tools: 1
Minor Artifacts: 6
Major Artifacts: 1
Total: 11

The intended balance point is roughly Tier 2. It's supposed to function as somewhat of a combination of warlock and sorcerer rolled into one. Let me know what you think, and I'll try to answer any questions as best I can.

[jokey665]

Bump so maybe the day crowd can check it out, lol.

[Scholar23]

i cant acess your files that may be why you can't get a response

[ErrantX]

I can't access the googledoc (says I don't have access), so... that might explain why you're not getting many bites here.

-X

[Siosilvar]

I can get to the other files, but I cannot get to the class -


We're sorry, but [my account] does not have access to this document.

You are signed in as [my account], but that email account hasn't been granted permission to this document.

[Selenir]

Fantastic idea, but as the others have said, can't view the class.

Been wanting a Planeswalker/M:tG class for a long time now, so I'm interested to see what you've come up with.

[jokey665]

Ah, okay; thanks for letting me know. I think I fixed it.

[Selenir]

Ah, okay; thanks for letting me know. I think I fixed it.

You did.

I can read it now.

EDIT: First thing I notice is alignment restrictions on color.

NO. The biggest thing about M:tG is that NO COLOR IS THE GOOD COLOR and, likewise, no color is the bad color.

...on that note, I can totally see restricting them base on law/chaos. Chaotic white mage? Not gonna happen. Lawful red mage? No way.

But not good and evil.

Evil white mages ARE out there. Ever read the Ice Age books about Jodah? He's hunted down by the evilest white mages you can think of. Good black mages are all the more awesome because of the stigma associated with their magic.

Second Edit:
Second, I think you should be able to specialize in more than one color. Perhaps you need to give up other colors to get more than one specialization, however.

For example, you could have a white mana specialist, but he can still cast spells of all five colors.

But, if you want to specialize in Red and White together, you'd have to give up one other color that you can never use.

If you wanted to be Red, White, and Black, you couldn't ever use Green or Blue magic.

If you want to specialise in FOUR colors... screw you. You're not a specialist, you're a generalist who just doesn't like Blue Mana for some reason. :P

[Imbasel]

I'm going to go with Selenir on this one. I like the class abilities and think it is well balanced for Tier 2. I still have yet to go through the spells so I will put more up later. Also, do you want any help doing things? If so I would be more then happy to help.

EDIT 2: Also, a couple of things after going after the spell list. Are you going to eventually, create more summoning spells, for creatures? The majority of them seem to be instants or sorcery spells. However, thats fine with me and its just a personal preference to add more. Also, some spells seem awfully powerful despite their level needed to cast it. For example Searing Wind. I know that it costs 9 mana to cast which means a 17th level caster level, to be able to cast. However, being able to do 60d10 at 20th level in a 200 foot line seems like a lot. On the other hand, that character won't be casting any other spells that powerful for several turns.

[jokey665]

I do have plans for more Summons/Creatures, but I plan on keeping the majority of them in Green. I'm trying to do my best to keep each color distinct, and even though MtG is very creature-heavy most of the time, I've decided to use some creative license and use less creatures than some might expect.

As for the damage thing, yeah I know some of the numbers are a bit high (and some are also a bit low). Part of that is the fact that spell damage is generally a poor way to spend actions. Remember that fire damage is probably the single most resisted/immunity'd damage type in D&D. Heck, of the CR 20 monsters on the SRD, only the Old Silver, the Very Old Copper/Bronze, and the Wyrm Black Dragons aren't immune to fire.

[Imbasel]

I'm with you on that one and I recognize several limiting factors involving casting these powerful spells. The character can't keep casting these powerful spells each turn so that makes it balanced. I'm also with you about the creatures as well, most of the summons spells should come from green.

I still believe that there should be no alignment restrictions based on color chosen however. Also, have you thought about running a game or one shot on the forums to playtest? If not I would encourage it.

[jokey665]

Hmm well to be honest I really like the alignment system I have in place right now...

As for playtesting, I'm not really big into PbP games; I've had a couple so far in my IRL games, though. They worked pretty similarly to how I expected them to.

[LOTRfan]

I think the class and feats are excellent, but I cannot see the other documents now.

Perhaps its just me?

[Imbasel]

Download the link. Then you can see it.

[SilverClawShift]

There's a whole lot about this class I really like, but a few things I'm struggling to understand...

The idea of a regenerating mana pool is a great one, and almost arguably how spellcasters SHOULD be used in a game over vancian casting. It flows smoothly and naturally, and really changes the way a caster will feel in game (more of a 'surging with power' thing). Casters go into a battle (most battles anyway) brimming with their full potential, but then reach a point where they're running low, and either firing off pot-shot spells to stay in the game, or whacking things with a staff and trying to keep their distance until they're juiced up enough to let another meaningful spell fire off.

Great imagery.

I can't download the spells, but I'm assuming they have varying cost in terms of color combinations and amount of mana it takes to cast them? Which is brilliant. Instead of spells having an arguably complicated level setup, they simply have different costs. More powerful spells naturally take more juice and more out of the person casting them, while weak enough spells can essentially be fired of 'free' as you'll regenerate enough mana to cast them again the next round.

Again, that works very naturally, a sort of auto-balance feature which means you don't have to figure out which level a spell should be or meticulously plan when a character should have access to something.

I agree with everyone above. I don't like the alignment restriction at all. A white mage who's a Knight Templar is not only possible, but kind of iconic of the color. "I know better than you, you don't need to be free".
At the same time, a practitioner of the dark arts who is sacrificing their own life force and comfort to bring more power to their noble cause isn't an evil character, just a dark one.
The restriction doesn't really add anything but an appearance of depth.

The mana color specialization works, and is logical and flavorful, but I can't help but feel it's missing something. You have to jump through very specific hoops to get certain iconic color combinations. I'm not a magic expert or anything, but isn't a "Dark Forest" green/black mage, or a "Divine Wrath" white/red mage something you kind of have a natural urge to want to make? Maybe I'm just bucking against a system for the hell of it, but I would suggest rethinking what specializing in a color means.

Perhaps you could choose an opposing color, but at the cost of being able to easily play with 'allied' colors. A white mage who chooses to also learn to weild black mana, at the cost of losing both Green and Blue. Aren't there cards in magic that have opposing colors as their whole point?
The whole thing hinges on getting rid of the alignment restriction obviously, but as I said, I don't feel very strongly about that...

Outside that, I can't really see anything I would have a strong desire to change about the class. It would be very fun to play with, and from a DMs perspective there's a lot you could naturally use to interact with the class. Artifacts that could be introduced and plot hooks that naturally come up. (which is why I would also consider adding an ability or feat that allows you to bring your party along with you when Plane shifting. What good is the ability to hop, skip, and jump to an entirely new world in pursuit of a BBEG on the run (or an even bigger BBEG chasing you through the multiverse) if you leave your party in the dust when you do so?).

If you don't mind, I think I'm going to write up some expanded flavor text for the class. I'd also like to add it to our groups homebrew database, get the spells (or make more spells), and bug my DM to let me play a Black mage. :smallsmile:

[Imbasel]

Do you think you could post the expanded flavor?

[SilverClawShift]

Of course, I intend to :smallsmile:

As well as a handfull of Planeswalker items....

[jokey665]

I can't download the spells, but I'm assuming they have varying cost in terms of color combinations and amount of mana it takes to cast them?
Yes, that's exactly the case.


Perhaps you could choose an opposing color, but at the cost of being able to easily play with 'allied' colors. A white mage who chooses to also learn to weild black mana, at the cost of losing both Green and Blue. Aren't there cards in magic that have opposing colors as their whole point?
The whole thing hinges on getting rid of the alignment restriction obviously, but as I said, I don't feel very strongly about that...
You can do that; it's at the very end of the specialization section. It's written for Guildmages, but that doesn't mean you have to use it as such; I just have a strong affinity for everything Ravnica, and the Guildmages were at the forefront of my mind as I was writing the whole thing.


(which is why I would also consider adding an ability or feat that allows you to bring your party along with you when Plane shifting. What good is the ability to hop, skip, and jump to an entirely new world in pursuit of a BBEG on the run (or an even bigger BBEG chasing you through the multiverse) if you leave your party in the dust when you do so?).
The feat's already there. :smallwink:


If you don't mind, I think I'm going to write up some expanded flavor text for the class. I'd also like to add it to our groups homebrew database, get the spells (or make more spells), and bug my DM to let me play a Black mage. :smallsmile:
I'm uploading all the files in the first post (and a few more, including the monsters and items I have done so far as well as my overall to-do list) to multiupload, so there's another option for getting everything.

Flavor is something I've had planned for a while but I figured I'd end up writing it all after I was finished with all the crunch; any help on that is much appreciated! (though I do have some finished; see the prestige classes document for a good example; it's the most polished section overall, I think.)

[ForzaFiori]

I'm gonna add to the list of people who are against the alignment restrictions. A restrictive, lawbound, evil society is still white, just like the necromancer who has his minions spend all their time helping people is still black.

Other than that though, I really like the entire thing, especially the prestige classes. Though I couldn't get the .rar to download, so I haven't seen anything that is only in there.

[SilveryCord]

I'm gonna add to the list of people who are against the alignment restrictions. A restrictive, lawbound, evil society is still white, just like the necromancer who has his minions spend all their time helping people is still black.

Other than that though, I really like the entire thing, especially the prestige classes. Though I couldn't get the .rar to download, so I haven't seen anything that is only in there.

Mmmh, I too disagree about alignment restrictions, but I don't think it's quite reasonable to say 'any color can be any alignment'. The only black 'hero' so far has been Toshiro Umezewa, and he's not exactly a shining example of heroism. I think it's a poor plan to describe MtG-specific things in D&D-specific terms.

White has elements of law and good, but can also be very capricious and evil.
Blue is very lawful, can be good or evil, but will often act at any cost for knowledge, a chaotic attittude.
Black is sometimes lawful, sometimes chaotic, sometimes D&D Evil, sometimes neutral, and sometimes it acts for the greater good.
Red is probably the only color you can say is 'Always Chaotic'. (And in D&D, that means 99% of the time, not 100%)
Green is sometimes very neutral, as D&D druids, but is sometimes very radical. It can be good or evil, chaotic or lawful.

[grarrrg]

I'm gonna add to the list of people who are against the alignment restrictions.

Maybe institute a "Cleric 1-step of deity" like rule?
White: 2-steps of NG
Blue: 2-Steps of LN
Black: 2-Steps of NE
Red: 2-Steps of CN
Green: 1-Step of NN

This still leaves it fairly wide open, as any partial-Neutral can still access all the colors, Whereas the extreme alignments can only access 2 schools.

White is the "most likely" to be "good" color.
Blue is the "most likely" to be "lawful" color.
Black etc...

[ArcanistSupreme]

You can do that; it's at the very end of the specialization section. It's written for Guildmages, but that doesn't mean you have to use it as such; I just have a strong affinity for everything Ravnica, and the Guildmages were at the forefront of my mind as I was writing the whole thing.

While the option is there, I feel that it's awkward and clunky. What about a Planeswalker for a level 2 campaign that will never see the levels required for the PrCs? Should (s)he be allowed to use enemy colors?


The feat's already there. :smallwink:

But why is it even necessary? As it's written, what's stopping the player from just having the party hop in the bag of holding and then hopping planes?


Maybe institute a "Cleric 1-step of deity" like rule?
White: 2-steps of NG
Blue: 2-Steps of LN
Black: 2-Steps of NE
Red: 2-Steps of CN
Green: 1-Step of NN

This still leaves it fairly wide open, as any partial-Neutral can still access all the colors, Whereas the extreme alignments can only access 2 schools.

White is the "most likely" to be "good" color.
Blue is the "most likely" to be "lawful" color.
Black etc...

This is a great idea! I would change White to LN and change Red to "within one step". I'd also say that white is most likely to be a "lawful" color.

As for the class as a whole, this is amazing! The amount of thought and consideration that went into it is obvious. There are a few questions and comments I have.

First of all, how are you trying to balance this class? Just briefly glancing at it, it seems like Tier 1 or 2, as you are trying to balance it against other spellcasters. While this seems like the logical choice, for actual gameplay, I think I would shoot for Tier 3.

Second, how do you feel about adjusting the mana recovery mechanic? If you made it more like the Crusader so it recovers a random mana type each turn rather than one of the Planeswalker's choice, that would be closer to actual MTG, and it would reward those that stuck to mono-color mana bases with being able to more reliably cast their spells.

Another issue I have, albeit a small one, is the complete lack of abilities other than the spells. While they are definitely cool, PrC's that offer Planeswalker casting advancement give absolutely zero incentive to stay in the base class. The capstone is really lackluster, and simply prevents aging, something that can easily be achieved through other methods. Maybe grant minor abilities based on the amount of each color of mana in a Planeswalker's manapool? So a monored Planeswalker would perhaps gain a haste ability, while a blue and white one would maybe receive both natural armor and invisibility? Going off of my idea above, maybe multicolored Planeswalkers would gain the option to regain the mana color of his or her choice so many times per day?

All in all, great work!

[grarrrg]

This is a great idea! I would change White to LN and change Red to "within one step". I'd also say that white is most likely to be a "lawful" color.

I agree that White is normally more 'lawful' than not, but to keep things 'perfectly' balanced, something has to be 2-steps of NG. It sure as heck isn't Red or Black. Green is by far the best choice for 'the neutral'.
This leaves White and Blue, and Lawful and Good.
Given the options, White is a much better fit for Good than Blue is.

And it 'is' possible for a Red aligned character to be Lawful, just highly unlikely. If you look at the various creatures, Red is the second most 'military' oriented. And nothing says lawful like military.

[Latronis]

I agree that White is normally more 'lawful' than not, but to keep things 'perfectly' balanced, something has to be 2-steps of NG. It sure as heck isn't Red or Black. Green is by far the best choice for 'the neutral'.
This leaves White and Blue, and Lawful and Good.
Given the options, White is a much better fit for Good than Blue is.

And it 'is' possible for a Red aligned character to be Lawful, just highly unlikely. If you look at the various creatures, Red is the second most 'military' oriented. And nothing says lawful like military.

Red uses things like "warriors" and "barbarians" as opposed to white's "soldiers" red is more like a militant rabble rather than a disciplined fighting unit. Actually red and white would be the only colours that would actually fit on a D&D axis, they are literally at odds over law and chaos.

[unosarta]

Maybe one way of adding a class feature would be something like a "Classic" mechanic for that color, depending on the color that was chosen, like so, for green:

Convoke (Ex): If a creature that you have summoned sacrifices a full round action, your next spell costs 1 less mana. Multiple summoned creatures may sacrifice actions in order to power your spells using this feature.

Or something like that. Speaking of which, how exactly do the monster mechanics work? Are the creatures under your control?

[Latronis]

while not exactly what i'd call classic convoke was a fun mechanic oh the ravnica days in the selesnya enclave pumping out a whole army of saproling to drop chorus of the enclave than use the little army to pump out MASSIVE creature after creature.

Janky as hell but damn it was fun. Ravnica would make an awesome pnp setting

[unosarta]

while not exactly what i'd call classic convoke was a fun mechanic oh the ravnica days in the selesnya enclave pumping out a whole army of saproling to drop chorus of the enclave than use the little army to pump out MASSIVE creature after creature.

Janky as hell but damn it was fun. Ravnica would make an awesome pnp setting

Oh, I just meant classic in the sense that it was unique to your color. A lot of the mechanics have been replicated across color, and Convoke is just an easy mechanic to replicate in this system.

Meh, I actually liked Kamigawa more. You could get some weird combos with multiple Eye of the Storms (http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic//general/Eye_of_the_Storm.jpg) in Ravnica. I loved the story behind Ravnica though.

[Latronis]

Oh, I just meant classic in the sense that it was unique to your color. A lot of the mechanics have been replicated across color, and Convoke is just an easy mechanic to replicate in this system.

Meh, I actually liked Kamigawa more. You could get some weird combos with multiple Eye of the Storms (http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic//general/Eye_of_the_Storm.jpg) in Ravnica. I loved the story behind Ravnica though.

I never liked Kamigawa much, it lacked synergy within block outside of some arcane\spirit decks and didn't have too much going for it in wider formats either a few meta defining cards and a lot of crap not that there isn't a lot of crap in every block but the over reliance on legendaries hurt it aswell. Basically the block as a whole was too disjointed and weak overall to affect wider formats like future standard and it's extended at the time outside of a few choice cards. Also I believe equipment should've been a temporary(mirrodin block only) or occassionally revisited mechanic not a permanent thing. Kamigawa and uh... 8th? Killed that hope.

Not that it wasn't fun, just not terrible useful for deckbuilding side of things, do i did have a particular fondness for the ninjutsu mechanic. Fun times.

Eye of the storm. Ravnica draft was damn awesome fun in a play this in casual and you'll lose friends for life kinda way when you managed to pick up eye of the storm and Glimpse the Unthinkable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Glimpse%20the%20Unthinkable) Convoke was a mechanic designed to highlight the allied interaction of green and white more than a specifically green ability. Some form of ramping is more definitive of green. (pulling out extra lands, playing extra lands, Tweetie (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207334)) and been around since the beginning. Unlike red(earlier black) who only had temporary mana gains. Though i do get what you are saying, getting some definitive colour mechanics would be an awesome touch. And since the OP does like Ravnica so much no reason not to work in all the guild mechanics (note: not finished reading all the material yet sorry if it is)

[unosarta]

I never liked Kamigawa much, it lacked synergy within block outside of some arcane\spirit decks and didn't have too much going for it in wider formats either a few meta defining cards and a lot of crap not that there isn't a lot of crap in every block but the over reliance on legendaries hurt it aswell. Basically the block as a whole was too disjointed and weak overall to affect wider formats like future standard and it's extended at the time outside of a few choice cards. Also I believe equipment should've been a temporary(mirrodin block only) or occassionally revisited mechanic not a permanent thing. Kamigawa and uh... 8th? Killed that hope.
Ah, mechanically, it was probably so. But the story of Kamigawa, actually was probably better than Mirrodin's. I guess we just have different reasons for playing then. :smallsmile:

Yeah, most of the equipment just had no point in Kamigawa, and Eighth made me stop playing for a while (Especially after the awesomeness that was Kamigawa and Mirrodin). And those choice cards that did affect the other editions? They were pretty awesome. Like, the Epic cards (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGSOK/endless_swarm.jpg). Also, most of the legendaries added a lot to the story, and a couple were pretty good.



Not that it wasn't fun, just not terrible useful for deckbuilding side of things, do i did have a particular fondness for the ninjutsu mechanic. Fun times.
Have you ever made a Kitsune deck? That was some fun. :smallbiggrin:


Eye of the storm. Ravnica draft was damn awesome fun in a play this in casual and you'll lose friends for life kinda way when you managed to pick up eye of the storm and Glimpse the Unthinkable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Glimpse%20the%20Unthinkable) Convoke was a mechanic designed to highlight the allied interaction of green and white more than a specifically green ability. Some form of ramping is more definitive of green. (pulling out extra lands, playing extra lands, Tweetie (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=207334)) and been around since the beginning. Unlike red(earlier black) who only had temporary mana gains. Though i do get what you are saying, getting some definitive colour mechanics would be an awesome touch. And since the OP does like Ravnica so much no reason not to work in all the guild mechanics (note: not finished reading all the material yet sorry if it is)

UGH. One of my friends had 4 Eye of the Storms and 4 Copy Enchantments. It was brutal, since he was playing against me, with a burn deck. And although convoke was supposed to showcase the interconnectiveness of Green/White, it really seemed more green than white. I mean, if you look at the other mechanics white had, like the mechanic the Boros had, which was more based on color, or Orzhov, which was more coming back from the dead, or Azorious, which was forecast, which was FAR more blue than white.

It is really interesting how only the later sets tried to see the interaction between the colors, like Gruul, or Simic, although Golgari sort of had it down. Green was more based on creature additions and increasing power (gruul, Simic, Selesnya), whereas white just seemed to take the stuff from the other color it was paired with. It seemed as if the early set was just the interaction of similar alignments, in the Dungeons and Dragons term, and the powers that were similar.

[Latronis]

Ah, mechanically, it was probably so. But the story of Kamigawa, actually was probably better than Mirrodin's. I guess we just have different reasons for playing then. :smallsmile:

Don't get me wrong, i enjoy the flavor and i play for fun (even if sometimes its at another's expense ala casual control decks) and when fatpacks had the novella's (damn wotc removing that) i always checked it out in addition to the tapestry weaved through flavor text... but deckbuilding is an essential part of my fun so sets or blocks that have such issues negatively impacts my enjoyment.


Yeah, most of the equipment just had no point in Kamigawa, and Eighth made me stop playing for a while (Especially after the awesomeness that was Kamigawa and Mirrodin). And those choice cards that did affect the other editions? They were pretty awesome. Like, the Epic cards (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGSOK/endless_swarm.jpg). Also, most of the legendaries added a lot to the story, and a couple were pretty good.

While i did like the interaction between Ronin Warclub and Ninjutsu, and ofc Jitte made waves even in standard and extended my biggest problem with equipment is they essential fill the same niche as (what is now)Aura's and other artifacts that tap to affect a creature. While it worked in mirrordin being the 'artifact' set what's the point of another card type (well subtype atleast) filling the same role if slightly differently, especially considering they often have affects that overshadow the creatures they are attached too, that is especially relevant when the idea of 'equipment' pretty much always makes sense. (most creatures can be enhanced with tools of some kind)


Have you ever made a Kitsune deck? That was some fun. :smallbiggrin:

Tried some variations of samurai deck containing kitsune but it never really clicked with me, i'm more of a fish guy. I like me some evasive beats and aggro\control over the white weenie type.


UGH. One of my friends had 4 Eye of the Storms and 4 Copy Enchantments. It was brutal, since he was playing against me, with a burn deck.

take a half dozen lava axes to the face! but then that is what is fun about blue magic, being tricksy.


And although convoke was supposed to showcase the interconnectiveness of Green/White, it really seemed more green than white. I mean, if you look at the other mechanics white had, like the mechanic the Boros had, which was more based on color, or Orzhov, which was more coming back from the dead, or Azorious, which was forecast, which was FAR more blue than white.

It is really interesting how only the later sets tried to see the interaction between the colors, like Gruul, or Simic, although Golgari sort of had it down. Green was more based on creature additions and increasing power (gruul, Simic, Selesnya), whereas white just seemed to take the stuff from the other color it was paired with. It seemed as if the early set was just the interaction of similar alignments, in the Dungeons and Dragons term, and the powers that were similar.

I have to disagree with some of this.

I'd say Convoke is probably the best example of shared colour affects. While green is the 'creature' colour and the convoke is a basically a mana ramp type effect. White is still rather creature based and likes to use creatures to make other creatures better so it combines the mana acceleration of green and the creatures working together of white quite nicely.

Radiance: It is effectively a community ability (affecting everything that shares a colour with it) that's almost exclusively white (red and especially green have some combat buff ability that's global or shared) and it does let red blow more **** up. General colour matters affects are pretty evenly split, generally just doing what the colour already does. But if anything it really does feel like more of a white thing.

Dredge is arguably more black, though green isn't shy of reanimation type affects filling graveyards even your own is typically black. Generally why reanimator decks focus on black over green more tricks for getting them in and out rather than just out.

Transmute: is black. Tutoring is a black trick, linking it with blue's manipulation is a stretch and blue doesnt get any more tutor abilities than anything else outside of house dimir.

Forecast: I can see an argument for it being blue, but it's probably the most globally applicable guild mechanic. Since it only really cares about the individual effect it could fit in any colour easily. White tends to be more reactive in it's combat tricks so the upkeep section fits a more proactive control deck (like blue) but what the individual effect does is more defining then the ability itself imo.

The haunt mechanic is kinda weird, i wouldn't say it strictly black, but it is in a way graveyard resourcing which is black's shtick far more frequently than green or white (which does have some) no argument for white borrowing a black ability, it kinda makes sense though and not precedent free.

Bloodthirst: +1/+1 counters are green through and through (not unheard of offcolour but far rarer) the hurt a player get a bigger creature is pretty red though so it's another good example of the two merging in a way the mono versions cant really accomplish.

Graft: very very green. Barely blue at all, the 'manipulation' is pure flavor mechanically it doesn't really feel blue at all who normally doesn't care about creatures except before they resolve, to return them to hand, or as an evasive beater win condition\ fat blocker\ source of control.

Hellbent: Mechanically it could fit anything, perhaps red being the most aggressive based colour benefits most from having to resort to topdecking most frequently but there's nothing especially red about it. Black too doesn't exactly feel right though black will use anything as a resource to enable the ability.

Replicate: depends on how you look at it. Copying spells has been both red and blue at various times, historically more blue, more recently it's red. So it's kinda weird that way. Both colours have done similiar things though so it works just cant decide which colour it wants to be

EDIT: GOOD IDEA

[unosarta]

There is a lot of stuff here, so I spoilered it, just to make sure it doesn't take up to much space.


Don't get me wrong, i enjoy the flavor and i play for fun (even if sometimes its at another's expense ala casual control decks) and when fatpacks had the novella's (damn wotc removing that) i always checked it out in addition to the tapestry weaved through flavor text... but deckbuilding is an essential part of my fun so sets or blocks that have such issues negatively impacts my enjoyment.
Of course. I loved all of the books that WotC had done for the sets! They added a lot of well needed flavor. I suppose that is true about deckbuilding, and I really love it, but I guess after getting really into Dungeons and Dragons, I can't make something like a deck, or a character, without trying to make a back story of some sort, which is pretty hard in Magic The Gathering.



While i did like the interaction between Ronin Warclub and Ninjutsu, and ofc Jitte made waves even in standard and extended my biggest problem with equipment is they essential fill the same niche as (what is now)Aura's and other artifacts that tap to affect a creature. While it worked in mirrordin being the 'artifact' set what's the point of another card type (well subtype atleast) filling the same role if slightly differently, especially considering they often have affects that overshadow the creatures they are attached too, that is especially relevant when the idea of 'equipment' pretty much always makes sense. (most creatures can be enhanced with tools of some kind)
Exactly. Equipment has become like a permanent aura that can be equipped to another creature if you pay the cost, as long as it is not destroyed. I loved the Leontine (Not sure if that is the name, it has been a while), and their whole solid focus only solely equipment. It had great flavor potential, and it just lead to some fun mechanics.



Tried some variations of samurai deck containing kitsune but it never really clicked with me, i'm more of a fish guy. I like me some evasive beats and aggro\control over the white weenie type.
Well, depending on the deck, you can get some ridiculous stuff, like a Rune-Tail and Patron of the Kitsune deck, plus white weenie. It was intense.



take a half dozen lava axes to the face! but then that is what is fun about blue magic, being tricksy.
Exactly! Except, of course, the enchantment states that everyone gains the benefit, so it is also kind of suicidal.


I'd say Convoke is probably the best example of shared colour affects. While green is the 'creature' colour and the convoke is a basically a mana ramp type effect. White is still rather creature based and likes to use creatures to make other creatures better so it combines the mana acceleration of green and the creatures working together of white quite nicely.
Hm. White never really seemed like it had a very defined focus in magic. It was just sort of all over the board, with control, life-gain, creature stuff.


Radiance: It is effectively a community ability (affecting everything that shares a colour with it) that's almost exclusively white (red and especially green have some combat buff ability that's global or shared) and it does let red blow more **** up. General colour matters affects are pretty evenly split, generally just doing what the colour already does. But if anything it really does feel like more of a white thing.
Only a few affects actually dealt damage with it though, it was more shutting stuff down, if I remember correctly. Which is also very white, so I concede to your point.


Dredge is arguably more black, though green isn't shy of reanimation type affects filling graveyards even your own is typically black. Generally why reanimator decks focus on black over green more tricks for getting them in and out rather than just out.
True. But at least, flavor wise, dredge is a very well built mechanic. It is recycling creatures that have died (Which is pretty green in flavor), and also bringing them back, which is pretty black. I really liked Golgari decks.


Transmute: is black. Tutoring is a black trick, linking it with blue's manipulation is a stretch and blue doesnt get any more tutor abilities than anything else outside of house dimir.
True. Dimir never really seemed all that blue, if I recall correctly it had a lot more of the trappings of black, like creature kill, debuffs, and discard. I suppose discard could be argued to be blue as well, but it just seems more black to me.


Forecast: I can see an argument for it being blue, but it's probably the most globally applicable guild mechanic. Since it only really cares about the individual effect it could fit in any colour easily. White tends to be more reactive in it's combat tricks so the upkeep section fits a more proactive control deck (like blue) but what the individual effect does is more defining then the ability itself imo.
Ah, but blue is the type with the scrying mechanics. If it generally involves the future in some way, it tends to be blue. I suppose that is true about the individual effect.


The haunt mechanic is kinda weird, i wouldn't say it strictly black, but it is in a way graveyard resourcing which is black's shtick far more frequently than green or white (which does have some) no argument for white borrowing a black ability, it kinda makes sense though and not precedent free.
Yeah, very few white cards deal with reanimation or ghosts in the same way that black does, and it also feels a very black mechanic.


Bloodthirst: +1/+1 counters are green through and through (not unheard of offcolour but far rarer) the hurt a player get a bigger creature is pretty red though so it's another good example of the two merging in a way the mono versions cant really accomplish.
Exactly. Gruul also had some great flavor.


Graft: very very green. Barely blue at all, the 'manipulation' is pure flavor mechanically it doesn't really feel blue at all who normally doesn't care about creatures except before they resolve, to return them to hand, or as an evasive beater win condition\ fat blocker\ source of control.
I would say that the combination of green and blue actually does seem very well thought out here though. Blue is the color of manipulation and green is the color of life and primality. When combined, it is a guild that manipulates the lives of creatures in order to make them stronger and to fight for the guild.


Hellbent: Mechanically it could fit anything, perhaps red being the most aggressive based colour benefits most from having to resort to topdecking most frequently but there's nothing especially red about it. Black too doesn't exactly feel right though black will use anything as a resource to enable the ability.
Yeah. Self discard doesn't really have a precedent in game before this, so it really was up for grabs, but I kind of like what they did with it.


Replicate: depends on how you look at it. Copying spells has been both red and blue at various times, historically more blue, more recently it's red. So it's kinda weird that way. Both colours have done similiar things though so it works just cant decide which colour it wants to be
Actually, I think replicate was one of the better combinations. Thematically, this guild is based on magic, and if you look at how red and blue deal with magic, it makes sense. Red has more destructive magic, and blue has more control magic. Combined, it seems more red than blue, but I can see where blue would come into effect, such as with the spell "Gigadrowse".

[Latronis]

Well, depending on the deck, you can get some ridiculous stuff, like a Rune-Tail and Patron of the Kitsune deck, plus white weenie. It was intense.

Just not my cup of tea :P



Exactly! Except, of course, the enchantment states that everyone gains the benefit, so it is also kind of suicidal.

but you can with knowledge of the stack make the most of it's effects and blue does have the best tools for it.


Hm. White never really seemed like it had a very defined focus in magic. It was just sort of all over the board, with control, life-gain, creature stuff.

while it might seem so the things it does are generally fairly specific, it's mostly about community focus with it's creatures or creature affecting abilities like your warrior's honor (creatures you control get +1/+1 etc) small creatures supporting each other (T: prevent damage, T: buff etc) it's control elements are mostly defensive ie lifegain or reactive (remove target attacking creature from the game, prevent all combat damage etc) small members working as whole for a strong board position. Then there's the board sweepers the most famous being Wrath of God, white mage loses board strength, white wipes the slate clean. So convoke is using your community of creatures to get an ever larger community in a natural green friendly way, an ideal example of the combined strength.


True. But at least, flavor wise, dredge is a very well built mechanic. It is recycling creatures that have died (Which is pretty green in flavor), and also bringing them back, which is pretty black. I really liked Golgari decks.

often bringing them back stronger than ever. Though mechanically it fits perfectly mono black which is a bit counter to intent i believe, the whole basis of the 10 guilds was about doing what the individual colours could not. While you still need mono-coloured spells in set and in guild the actual guild mechanic should be the prime example of what the two colours can accomplish together


True. Dimir never really seemed all that blue, if I recall correctly it had a lot more of the trappings of black, like creature kill, debuffs, and discard. I suppose discard could be argued to be blue as well, but it just seems more black to me.


Oh Dimir is plenty blue, it has a range of different counterspells, bounce and library manipulation all traditional blue mage tricks with plenty of other tricks that it shares with black (though more often or less suicidal in blue) such as card drawing and milling. Often combined, or combined with black tricks (counter spell unless discards hand, target play draws X or discards X for example) then there's things like moroii effecient evasive beaters of a fair size but slightly suicidal blues love of evasion with blacks willingness to win at any cost, pay any price. It's just the actual guild mechanic in transmute is a decidedly black ability. Tutoring is just black's deal, the similiarity to library manipulation is a stretch.


Ah, but blue is the type with the scrying mechanics. If it generally involves the future in some way, it tends to be blue. I suppose that is true about the individual effect.

yes blue likes to look at cards in hidden zones (opponents hands, top card\s of library, search and removing from libraries) and rearrange what it can see but searching your library for a card to be paid later is black. And that's what transmute does it's a direct tutor, limited for balance.


Yeah, very few white cards deal with reanimation or ghosts in the same way that black does, and it also feels a very black mechanic.

self sacrifice is white though, aslong as they get across as the sacrifice for others vibe instead of sacrifice for self. White has lifegain though not the same as green and black has both lifestealing and life loss of self and others so the bleed thing it has going is suitable but the Haunt mechanic doesnt really feel white your right, as a recursion ability white is far more restrictive in what it does. Though i guess you could make an argument for the spiritual of white and black allowing white more access to it, it's not common enough to feel appropiate.


I would say that the combination of green and blue actually does seem very well thought out here though. Blue is the color of manipulation and green is the color of life and primality. When combined, it is a guild that manipulates the lives of creatures in order to make them stronger and to fight for the guild.

Artificial evolution and biological manipulation can certainly fit a green\blue combined philosophy, but mechanically it's too green. The counters are just too rare in blue and too common in green. That's a mechanical fault as far as im concerned rather than a flavor one. Though like the orzhov it'll have to be well it can now because its part green.


Yeah. Self discard doesn't really have a precedent in game before this, so it really was up for grabs, but I kind of like what they did with it.

an empty hand as a mechanic didn't really exist but discarding your own stuff has a long history, with a heavier though not complete emphasis in black.


Actually, I think replicate was one of the better combinations. Thematically, this guild is based on magic, and if you look at how red and blue deal with magic, it makes sense. Red has more destructive magic, and blue has more control magic. Combined, it seems more red than blue, but I can see where blue would come into effect, such as with the spell "Gigadrowse".

nothing against individual cards within the guild, but the mechanic itself is nothing new, even just a variation of the not so old storm mechanic (which existed in all colours) the ability to copy spells being played is something that's existed from the very beginning and has seen play in both red and blue so it's nothing new just the same thing both colours already had access too. Though considering red is generally more of a one time colour the ability to replicate endlessly seems a little more blue.

[unosarta]

Just not my cup of tea :P

I suppose. But honestly, it is a powerful combo.



but you can with knowledge of the stack make the most of it's effects and blue does have the best tools for it.
I suppose that is true. Scry is such a fun mechanic. :smallbiggrin:



while it might seem so the things it does are generally fairly specific, it's mostly about community focus with it's creatures or creature affecting abilities like your warrior's honor (creatures you control get +1/+1 etc) small creatures supporting each other (T: prevent damage, T: buff etc) it's control elements are mostly defensive ie lifegain or reactive (remove target attacking creature from the game, prevent all combat damage etc) small members working as whole for a strong board position. Then there's the board sweepers the most famous being Wrath of God, white mage loses board strength, white wipes the slate clean. So convoke is using your community of creatures to get an ever larger community in a natural green friendly way, an ideal example of the combined strength.
I see your point.


often bringing them back stronger than ever. Though mechanically it fits perfectly mono black which is a bit counter to intent i believe, the whole basis of the 10 guilds was about doing what the individual colours could not. While you still need mono-coloured spells in set and in guild the actual guild mechanic should be the prime example of what the two colours can accomplish together
I am not sure there is another way to have accomplished Black/Green, to be honest. They are not very thematically similar (Black focusing on death, Green focusing on Life). To be honest, working with what they had, I think the MTG designers did pretty well.



Oh Dimir is plenty blue, it has a range of different counterspells, bounce and library manipulation all traditional blue mage tricks with plenty of other tricks that it shares with black (though more often or less suicidal in blue) such as card drawing and milling. Often combined, or combined with black tricks (counter spell unless discards hand, target play draws X or discards X for example) then there's things like moroii effecient evasive beaters of a fair size but slightly suicidal blues love of evasion with blacks willingness to win at any cost, pay any price. It's just the actual guild mechanic in transmute is a decidedly black ability. Tutoring is just black's deal, the similiarity to library manipulation is a stretch.
Actually, library manipulation could really go either way, in my opinion. As could tutoring. As I remember in Kamigawa, there are several cards that deal with Library manipulation that are blue, and one card that does basically the same thing as Diabolic Tutor, except it works for permanents, and you have to sacrifice a permanent of the same converted mana cost, or something like that.



yes blue likes to look at cards in hidden zones (opponents hands, top card\s of library, search and removing from libraries) and rearrange what it can see but searching your library for a card to be paid later is black. And that's what transmute does it's a direct tutor, limited for balance.
Hm, I guess I can concede your point, considering that there is really only one blue card that does something similar. But, how would one covert this mechanic to Dungeons and Dragons, if that is what the OP is going to do, in order to differentiate the different colors?



self sacrifice is white though, aslong as they get across as the sacrifice for others vibe instead of sacrifice for self. White has lifegain though not the same as green and black has both lifestealing and life loss of self and others so the bleed thing it has going is suitable but the Haunt mechanic doesnt really feel white your right, as a recursion ability white is far more restrictive in what it does. Though i guess you could make an argument for the spiritual of white and black allowing white more access to it, it's not common enough to feel appropiate.
I don't think I was talking about self-sacrifice. To be honest, Haunt was more like an effect that was nice if your opponent killed your creature, and then you killed a creature of theirs. So, it was more like a reason for an opponent not to kill your creatures. And yes, the mechanic does feel far more black than white.



Artificial evolution and biological manipulation can certainly fit a green\blue combined philosophy, but mechanically it's too green. The counters are just too rare in blue and too common in green. That's a mechanical fault as far as im concerned rather than a flavor one. Though like the orzhov it'll have to be well it can now because its part green.
True. Although, again, I don't think there is a way for them to have done it so that it was still fitting for the colors, and a good ability.



an empty hand as a mechanic didn't really exist but discarding your own stuff has a long history, with a heavier though not complete emphasis in black.
But, honestly, the point of discard up to that point was threshold, discarding to make tokens, and reanimation, but the Hellbent mechanic made it somewhat more of a point, rather than just to get those cards into the graveyard! Also, to be honest, Hellbent fits VERY well, thematically. The more insane you get, the more powerful your cards are, as illustrated by intelligence and sanity being the size of your hand. I like the way the flavor feels, anyway. I suppose I am just a flavor nerd, and that might explain some of the things I like. :smallamused:



nothing against individual cards within the guild, but the mechanic itself is nothing new, even just a variation of the not so old storm mechanic (which existed in all colours) the ability to copy spells being played is something that's existed from the very beginning and has seen play in both red and blue so it's nothing new just the same thing both colours already had access too. Though considering red is generally more of a one time colour the ability to replicate endlessly seems a little more blue.
Ah, storm. Storm was fun, but also kind of made keeping track of all of the cards played a pain in the ass. Also, again, I am not sure there would have been a better way to have the Guild, have a mechanic, and still make it work for both. Meh.

[Latronis]

I suppose that is true. Scry is such a fun mechanic. :smallbiggrin:

Speaking of which, the old favourite Sage Owl weeps at the introduction of his new brother Augury Owl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208225)


I am not sure there is another way to have accomplished Black/Green, to be honest. They are not very thematically similar (Black focusing on death, Green focusing on Life). To be honest, working with what they had, I think the MTG designers did pretty well.

True enough, enemy pairs are hard without already doing what they share as most enemy pair do share some abilities.


Actually, library manipulation could really go either way, in my opinion. As could tutoring. As I remember in Kamigawa, there are several cards that deal with Library manipulation that are blue, and one card that does basically the same thing as Diabolic Tutor, except it works for permanents, and you have to sacrifice a permanent of the same converted mana cost, or something like that.

Flavour. If it represents screw with time\memory manipulation it should be blue, if it's like a psychic attack it should probably be black. Basically if you costs you something (outside of mana and the card itself) it can fit in black that's why black has access to so many other colours abilities at heavier prices (lifeloss, discard, sacrificing permanents etc) Likewise black tutors tend to be based around the deal with the devil concept, and the important thing is they fetch anything, what tutors exist in other colours have specifics involved. (Blue can fetch artifacts, instants, sorceries, Green can pull creatures and especially land, white can whip out enchantments etc) so transmute imo has a much greater deal in common with the basic black tutors than any others. That's why i say it's a black mechanic. Though now i think about it, atleast flavorwise, transmute is basically using the spells power to convert it into another similiarly powerful affect.. manipulating magical spells on such a level IS blue(at least flavorwise). Thing is black and blue are already so similiar, have so much overlap and their respective abilities work well together already, probably more so than any other allied pair.


Hm, I guess I can concede your point, considering that there is really only one blue card that does something similar. But, how would one covert this mechanic to Dungeons and Dragons, if that is what the OP is going to do, in order to differentiate the different colors?


Transmute? Easy, already exists. Just like a cleric can spontaneously convert any spell into a cure or inflict type spell (or druids and summon natures ally etc) a spell with transmute could instead be converted into any other spell the caster knows of the same level. (might need another restriction(or greater cost) for things like wizards with massive spellbooks but thats basically what transmute (if you look at spells of the same level being roughly equal in power much like spells of the same CMC are roughly equal in power) is.

As for actual tutors i dunno how to do so easily without breaking things apart.


I don't think I was talking about self-sacrifice. To be honest, Haunt was more like an effect that was nice if your opponent killed your creature, and then you killed a creature of theirs. So, it was more like a reason for an opponent not to kill your creatures. And yes, the mechanic does feel far more black than white.

well no but my point was some form of grave recursion does exist in white.

Problem with black and white despite some overlap is they go about it too differently. At least haunt can be strangely enough both selfish and selfless which works with the internal conflict nicely. Losing one to harm your enemies for the greater good of your little family, Spiteful well if i'm going down hows this for a screw you!


But, honestly, the point of discard up to that point was threshold, discarding to make tokens, and reanimation, but the Hellbent mechanic made it somewhat more of a point, rather than just to get those cards into the graveyard! Also, to be honest, Hellbent fits VERY well, thematically. The more insane you get, the more powerful your cards are, as illustrated by intelligence and sanity being the size of your hand. I like the way the flavor feels, anyway. I suppose I am just a flavor nerd, and that might explain some of the things I like. :smallamused:

I guess in the end losing your hand does fit better with the 2 most suicidal colours than anything else. Still with a name change it could have easily been a global mechanic.

[unosarta]

Speaking of which, the old favourite Sage Owl weeps at the introduction of his new brother Augury Owl (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208225)
Wow. :smallannoyed:




True enough, enemy pairs are hard without already doing what they share as most enemy pair do share some abilities.
Exactly. this is a problem for a lot of the mechanics you seem to have a problem with, like Orzhov or the Simic.



Flavour. If it represents screw with time\memory manipulation it should be blue, if it's like a psychic attack it should probably be black. Basically if you costs you something (outside of mana and the card itself) it can fit in black that's why black has access to so many other colours abilities at heavier prices (lifeloss, discard, sacrificing permanents etc) Likewise black tutors tend to be based around the deal with the devil concept, and the important thing is they fetch anything, what tutors exist in other colours have specifics involved. (Blue can fetch artifacts, instants, sorceries, Green can pull creatures and especially land, white can whip out enchantments etc) so transmute imo has a much greater deal in common with the basic black tutors than any others. That's why i say it's a black mechanic. Though now i think about it, atleast flavorwise, transmute is basically using the spells power to convert it into another similiarly powerful affect.. manipulating magical spells on such a level IS blue(at least flavorwise). Thing is black and blue are already so similiar, have so much overlap and their respective abilities work well together already, probably more so than any other allied pair.
Yeah, to be honest, Blue and Black seem very similar at least on the motives level. Both want to manipulate, and gain from it. Black sacrifices, and manipulates itself, where as blue manipulates others. Or that is the way it seems to me.



Transmute? Easy, already exists. Just like a cleric can spontaneously convert any spell into a cure or inflict type spell (or druids and summon natures ally etc) a spell with transmute could instead be converted into any other spell the caster knows of the same level. (might need another restriction(or greater cost) for things like wizards with massive spellbooks but thats basically what transmute (if you look at spells of the same level being roughly equal in power much like spells of the same CMC are roughly equal in power) is.
Except, a planeswalker doesn't prepare spells he knows them. You can't really trade out a spell for another if the only spells you can use are teh ones you know, or it becomes really powerful.

Alternatively, as a possible mechanic for the OP, maybe the Planeswalker starts out each encounter with a random pool of spells he or she knows, and can switch one out as a standard action, to gain another random spell. Spells that are similar to Tutor spells would let you find a specific spell you are looking for. That would allow it to be more random, similar to how Magic is, allows for Tutor effects that aren't too powerful, and let's you use a draw mechanic, the switching a spell out for another as a standard action. But the OP probably isn't reading this anyway. :smallwink:



As for actual tutors i dunno how to do so easily without breaking things apart.
Maybe, see what I said above? It could work.



well no but my point was some form of grave recursion does exist in white.
But it is not very powerful, or common. In fact, I can't think of a card that does that, off the top of my head, that is white.


Problem with black and white despite some overlap is they go about it too differently. At least haunt can be strangely enough both selfish and selfless which works with the internal conflict nicely. Losing one to harm your enemies for the greater good of your little family, Spiteful well if i'm going down hows this for a screw you!
I don't think it benefits the community, most of the time. The ones that I can really remember made your opponent discard, and allowed you to gain life, respectively. That doesn't seem to community oriented.



I guess in the end losing your hand does fit better with the 2 most suicidal colours than anything else. Still with a name change it could have easily been a global mechanic.
I suppose.

Also, this system could work really well with Lord_Gareth's Color Alignment System. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157001)

[Latronis]

Exactly. this is a problem for a lot of the mechanics you seem to have a problem with, like Orzhov or the Simic.

Though to be fair i do love the feel of each and every guild from a pure fluff perspective. The crunch just doesn't always match that.


Yeah, to be honest, Blue and Black seem very similar at least on the motives level. Both want to manipulate, and gain from it. Black sacrifices, and manipulates itself, where as blue manipulates others. Or that is the way it seems to me.

Biggest difference is seeking power(black) vs seeking knowledge(blue) Omnipotence vs Omniscience so House Dimir believe knowledge is power, especially if you're the only one with it. Black wants to make the world the best it can be for itself Blue wants to understand and control everything.


Except, a planeswalker doesn't prepare spells he knows them. You can't really trade out a spell for another if the only spells you can use are teh ones you know, or it becomes really powerful.

That's why Transmute has the same CMC restriction. Every spell can be converted into any other spell? Sign me up! Transmute is only useful (and it was immensely) aslong as you have other spells of the appropiate cost. Don't need another little attacker when you draw the Dimir infiltrator? whip out a counterspell or glimpse the unthinkable instead :smallcool: Even has the little mindgames thing going on, take great relish in revealing that counterspell and leaving the omnious 2 islands untapped. Good times.


Alternatively, as a possible mechanic for the OP, maybe the Planeswalker starts out each encounter with a random pool of spells he or she knows, and can switch one out as a standard action, to gain another random spell. Spells that are similar to Tutor spells would let you find a specific spell you are looking for. That would allow it to be more random, similar to how Magic is, allows for Tutor effects that aren't too powerful, and let's you use a draw mechanic, the switching a spell out for another as a standard action. But the OP probably isn't reading this anyway. :smallwink:

Maybe, see what I said above? It could work.

But i don't really like randomness.. it's not really fitting, it's a natural part of a card game but i doubt planeswalkers (and mages) are all well i know how to counter that spell but i've been unlucky and i haven't randomly been assigned that spell yet.

Giving up actions for the future versatility does seem fair though. I think ultimately it depends on how spellcasting would work. I mean even though the two players in a duel are planeswalkers many spells show up in the fiction too used by perfectly normal non-planewalkers.


But it is not very powerful, or common. In fact, I can't think of a card that does that, off the top of my head, that is white.

Off the top of my head (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21260) Granted it's not the most common ability. Though sometimes is quite powerful (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121196), Does have some of this too (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=196998), and Slightly Different Recursion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=44398). You could almost sum it up like..
Black = reanimation of dead (animate dead style)
White(green albiet more commonly) = resurrection (returning to life)


I don't think it benefits the community, most of the time. The ones that I can really remember made your opponent discard, and allowed you to gain life, respectively. That doesn't seem to community oriented.

The idea that it's a curse or a haunting or some negative affect for killing off one of the family. It seems more an internal thing, inside your head, rather than something directly shown through the cards. You have your little mafia-esque church of deals family punishing those who get rid of your little guys.


Also, this system could work really well with Lord_Gareth's Color Alignment System. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157001)

oh so he reposted that? we had a massive discussion when that come up sometime.. uh last year maybe? possibly a little earlier even. More definitive rules even nice

[unosarta]

Though to be fair i do love the feel of each and every guild from a pure fluff perspective. The crunch just doesn't always match that.
I suppose that that is true. A lot of the crunch just kind of doesn't match the fluff, for a couple of guilds (Which tend to be the ones with opposite color combinations. :smallwink:).


Biggest difference is seeking power(black) vs seeking knowledge(blue) Omnipotence vs Omniscience so House Dimir believe knowledge is power, especially if you're the only one with it. Black wants to make the world the best it can be for itself Blue wants to understand and control everything.
Ooo, that was a very good analogy. I can wrap my mind around that. Thanks!



That's why Transmute has the same CMC restriction. Every spell can be converted into any other spell? Sign me up! Transmute is only useful (and it was immensely) aslong as you have other spells of the appropiate cost. Don't need another little attacker when you draw the Dimir infiltrator? whip out a counterspell or glimpse the unthinkable instead :smallcool: Even has the little mindgames thing going on, take great relish in revealing that counterspell and leaving the omnious 2 islands untapped. Good times.
ARRGH, I just realized I misspelled "The" in that post. :smallfurious:

Anyway, I love the whole, "fake opponents out by leaving two lands untapped when you really just have a bunch of monsters and sorceries in your hand." Makes me laugh every time. But, from a mechanical concept, for Dungeons and Dragons, it could work something like a tutor mechanic (like it already does :smalltongue:), and trade in a spell that you have currently, for the system I outlined below, for another one that you know, of the same Converted Mana Cost. It would be interesting mechanically, at the very least.




But i don't really like randomness.. it's not really fitting, it's a natural part of a card game but i doubt planeswalkers (and mages) are all well i know how to counter that spell but i've been unlucky and i haven't randomly been assigned that spell yet.
Except, if you look at the Dungeons and Dragons stuff, you have to know the spell that you are counterspelling, in order to counterspell it, which is even more random and strange. The fact that you don't have a counterspell at the time because it is in your "Deck" is simply that you do not have access to the spell energies that when reversed would cause a negation in the spell matrices. Also, if Magic the Gathering is told from the perspective that the people playing the deck are planeswalkers, not just some weird powerful mages with access to lots of summoning. That is the whole point.


Giving up actions for the future versatility does seem fair though. I think ultimately it depends on how spellcasting would work. I mean even though the two players in a duel are planeswalkers many spells show up in the fiction too used by perfectly normal non-planewalkers.
Most of that stuff is not considered part of an actual spell matrix in the same way that a Planeswalker spell is. For instance, lets say a wizard summons a ball of fire. Is that a sorcery, instant, creature, artifact, or enchantment? Neither, it doesn't fit within a spell matrix, so it isn't a Planeswalker spell. Even if they look similar, if it doesn't have a chronological tag, and doesn't fit within the spell matrix through which a Planeswalker works, it is not a Planeswalker spell. That also means that Planeswalker's spells have regulations, such as that they might know a total number of spells overall, but they only gain access to a few, similarly to how a crusader works.



Off the top of my head (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21260) Granted it's not the most common ability. Though sometimes is quite powerful (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121196), Does have some of this too (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=196998), and Slightly Different Recursion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=44398). You could almost sum it up like..
Black = reanimation of dead (animate dead style)
White(green albiet more commonly) = resurrection (returning to life)
Ah, but those cards are specifically made for the gods of death and the dead in the set, Valkyries. They are thematically supposed to have bringing back to life effects, simply for that reason. They do not indicate that all white creatures and effects are able to do that, or that even a majority, or a small number are able to. And regenerate doesn't really count, because flavor wise, the creature isn't dead yet, but all of it's health, and lost body parts, and whatever, has been regenerated, which is decidedly not a "reanimate" effect. Eternal Dragon doesn't really count because he is not returning stuff to the field of play (reanimation), but is returning to your hand (recycling). It is actually a more green ability than white. But yes, your analogy for those effects (like the valkyrie), are more bring back to life, but I still contend that regeneration doesn't work like that, because otherwise, you would be able to regenerate a creature when it is in a graveyard, which you can't do, you can only regenerate it before it enters a graveyard.



The idea that it's a curse or a haunting or some negative affect for killing off one of the family. It seems more an internal thing, inside your head, rather than something directly shown through the cards. You have your little mafia-esque church of deals family punishing those who get rid of your little guys.
I guess I can agree with you, when put that way. But that wasn't necessarily the feeling I got from reading the cards, or the fluff, really.



oh so he reposted that? we had a massive discussion when that come up sometime.. uh last year maybe? possibly a little earlier even. More definitive rules even nice
No, I was just going through his Homebrew signature, saw it, and thought it might be relevant.

[Latronis]

Anyway, I love the whole, "fake opponents out by leaving two lands untapped when you really just have a bunch of monsters and sorceries in your hand." Makes me laugh every time. But, from a mechanical concept, for Dungeons and Dragons, it could work something like a tutor mechanic (like it already does :smalltongue:), and trade in a spell that you have currently, for the system I outlined below, for another one that you know, of the same Converted Mana Cost. It would be interesting mechanically, at the very least.

A better fit, (instead of my proposed cleric like spontaneous conversion)if we stick with wizard spellcasting to get the idea across would be using your standard action to convert a spell with transmute into another spell in your spellbook of the same level. So in effect you lose the original spell in your hand, for one of the same power(CMC) ready to be cast at your choosing. (revealed from library and put into hand) So instead of converting a prepared spell into another spell as you cast it (no doubt too abusable) you are using your action that would casting a spell to in effect rememorise something else in that spell slot. In that way more direct Tutors could be cast to fill an empty slot without the normal 15minutes a wizard takes to fill a slot(left blank), might need someone to keep an eye on things to make sure it doesnt get out of hand, but in theory using up an action and a spell to prepare another spell mid-combat sounds fair. Kind of like a baby wish, which isn't that far off base considering the original (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=60) and most (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205222) tutors (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107308) are the idea of the deal with the devil (contract with extraplanar powers)

I'm not sure i completely understand your proposed system....


Except, if you look at the Dungeons and Dragons stuff, you have to know the spell that you are counterspelling, in order to counterspell it, which is even more random and strange. The fact that you don't have a counterspell at the time because it is in your "Deck" is simply that you do not have access to the spell energies that when reversed would cause a negation in the spell matrices. Also, if Magic the Gathering is told from the perspective that the people playing the deck are planeswalkers, not just some weird powerful mages with access to lots of summoning. That is the whole point.

well you can use readied actions and the dispel magic line of spells as counterspells. But really i was never completely satisfied with D&D counterspelling. If it was going towards a total MTG conversion i guess you could make actual counter spells probably cast as immediate actions.


Most of that stuff is not considered part of an actual spell matrix in the same way that a Planeswalker spell is. For instance, lets say a wizard summons a ball of fire. Is that a sorcery, instant, creature, artifact, or enchantment? Neither, it doesn't fit within a spell matrix, so it isn't a Planeswalker spell. Even if they look similar, if it doesn't have a chronological tag, and doesn't fit within the spell matrix through which a Planeswalker works, it is not a Planeswalker spell. That also means that Planeswalker's spells have regulations, such as that they might know a total number of spells overall, but they only gain access to a few, similarly to how a crusader works.

the books often have planeswalkers and mortal mages using similiar spells. Originally planeswalkers were even just mages who learnt how to walk the planes though it went through some evolutions since then, the idea of sorceries\instants\creatures etc are more just a game tool i'd say rather than truly a difference between what a planeswalker and a mage or neowalker can do.


Ah, but those cards are specifically made for the gods of death and the dead in the set, Valkyries. They are thematically supposed to have bringing back to life effects, simply for that reason. They do not indicate that all white creatures and effects are able to do that, or that even a majority, or a small number are able to. And regenerate doesn't really count, because flavor wise, the creature isn't dead yet, but all of it's health, and lost body parts, and whatever, has been regenerated, which is decidedly not a "reanimate" effect. Eternal Dragon doesn't really count because he is not returning stuff to the field of play (reanimation), but is returning to your hand (recycling). It is actually a more green ability than white. But yes, your analogy for those effects (like the valkyrie), are more bring back to life, but I still contend that regeneration doesn't work like that, because otherwise, you would be able to regenerate a creature when it is in a graveyard, which you can't do, you can only regenerate it before it enters a graveyard.


I guess I can agree with you, when put that way. But that wasn't necessarily the feeling I got from reading the cards, or the fluff, really.

Things like carrion wall "a wall made from the bodies of the dead never lacks building materials in times of wall" and drudge skeletons a quote by a necromancer something about the dead making good soldiers because they don't stop fighting when random body parts fall off can easily be construed as black regeneration being instantly rising again, or fighting after death especially since it's most common on undead creatures. Whereas green's version generally be more wolverine-like (see any troll) Also black certainly has more of return from graveyard to play\hand\library which would be a better fit flavorwise, though not always the most effect means of saying this creature won't die\stay dead, regenerate can provide that.

My point is 'afterlife' (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19549) resurrection etc is not such an alien concept to white, especially considering it's often spiritual and\or religious tones, while mechanically it's generally a better fit in green the 'life' colour it's not such a bad fit for white mixed with black, better than creature recursion mechanics. If you look at the make up of the Orzhov guild, a shady close knit family bordering on organised crime with a religious cult as the public face the mechanic fits the flavor if not neccassarily standard white fare. Might be a bit of a stretch but this afterlife thing is pretty much the only thing black and white share in common even if they have different reasons for it.



No, I was just going through his Homebrew signature, saw it, and thought it might be relevant.

A while ago it started up, discussion about using the colour wheel in D&D, that newer topic is a more crunchy version from that original discussion. Honestly unless you are just going to translate a few spells into D&D because they do fun things i don't see a whole lot of point in translating classes and creatures an otherstuff in any large degree without using the colour wheel, it is essentially the basis of all mtg flavor.

[unosarta]

A better fit, (instead of my proposed cleric like spontaneous conversion)if we stick with wizard spellcasting to get the idea across would be using your standard action to convert a spell with transmute into another spell in your spellbook of the same level. So in effect you lose the original spell in your hand, for one of the same power(CMC) ready to be cast at your choosing. (revealed from library and put into hand) So instead of converting a prepared spell into another spell as you cast it (no doubt too abusable) you are using your action that would casting a spell to in effect rememorise something else in that spell slot. In that way more direct Tutors could be cast to fill an empty slot without the normal 15minutes a wizard takes to fill a slot(left blank), might need someone to keep an eye on things to make sure it doesnt get out of hand, but in theory using up an action and a spell to prepare another spell mid-combat sounds fair. Kind of like a baby wish, which isn't that far off base considering the original (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=60) and most (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205222) tutors (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107308) are the idea of the deal with the devil (contract with extraplanar powers)
Except, it makes even more sense in the system I proposed, which I shall explain.


I'm not sure i completely understand your proposed system....
So, as of right now, there aren't enough spells gained per level for this to work, but if it went more like this:

{table=head]Level|Spells Readied|Spells Known

1st| 5|11
2nd| 5|12
3rd| 5|13
4th| 5|14
5th| 5|15
6th| 5|16
7th| 5|17
8th| 5|18
9th| 5|19
10th| 6|20
11th| 6|21
12th| 6|22
13th| 6|23
14th| 6|24
15th| 6|25
16th| 6|26
17th| 6|27
18th| 6|28
19th| 6|29
20th| 7|30[/table]

If you have a spell readied, you can cast it. Casting it does not remove it from your spells readied. You can only have the number on the table in spells readied. By spending a Standard action (Could have a class ability to make it move at higher levels, and swift at level 20), you may put a spell back into your "deck" and draw a new spell. That spell then enters your spells readied, and you may cast it. Certain spells or abilities may affect this, returning all spells readied to your deck, and allowing you to draw that many cards for free. The "deck" is reshuffled (Mixing up the spells at random) every encounter, and spell effects such as scry let you see the top card or three of your "deck". This was what I was thinking of. Or, you could have it be like wizard casting, where you know every spell, and you make up your deck at the beginning of the day, but in order to make this class not ridiculous like the wizard, it needs some sort of restraint, which the "hand" and drawing system would provide.


well you can use readied actions and the dispel magic line of spells as counterspells. But really i was never completely satisfied with D&D counterspelling. If it was going towards a total MTG conversion i guess you could make actual counter spells probably cast as immediate actions.
You could in theory, but in order to be a really successful counterspeller against someone of the same level, you have to be a sorcerer, and use mainly Dispel Magic or that line of spells, and it really limits what you can do. The Magic the Gathering system, if it used Counterspells, wouldn't necessarily be underpowered, depending on the other spells put into a deck.


the books often have planeswalkers and mortal mages using similiar spells. Originally planeswalkers were even just mages who learnt how to walk the planes though it went through some evolutions since then, the idea of sorceries\instants\creatures etc are more just a game tool i'd say rather than truly a difference between what a planeswalker and a mage or neowalker can do.

Ah, but if you actually compare them card for card, and against what a planeswalker can do, it is VERY different. And honestly, it should be. The spark may provide a lot of magical power, but it shouldn't be the only thing that separates the Planeswalker from your every day mage.



Things like carrion wall "a wall made from the bodies of the dead never lacks building materials in times of wall" and drudge skeletons a quote by a necromancer something about the dead making good soldiers because they don't stop fighting when random body parts fall off can easily be construed as black regeneration being instantly rising again, or fighting after death especially since it's most common on undead creatures. Whereas green's version generally be more wolverine-like (see any troll) Also black certainly has more of return from graveyard to play\hand\library which would be a better fit flavorwise, though not always the most effect means of saying this creature won't die\stay dead, regenerate can provide that.
Exactly, because the zombies or undead don't have life. They are powered by negative energy, so the necromancer simply puts more negative energy, and *BAM* the zombies is OK again. It really isn't regeneration in the same way green or white regeneration is, it is more like the opposite; rather than healing them back from the brink of death, the Necromancer fills them up with negative energy, and they are remade. Mechanically the same, thematically different.



My point is 'afterlife' (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19549) resurrection etc is not such an alien concept to white, especially considering it's often spiritual and\or religious tones, while mechanically it's generally a better fit in green the 'life' colour it's not such a bad fit for white mixed with black, better than creature recursion mechanics. If you look at the make up of the Orzhov guild, a shady close knit family bordering on organised crime with a religious cult as the public face the mechanic fits the flavor if not neccassarily standard white fare. Might be a bit of a stretch but this afterlife thing is pretty much the only thing black and white share in common even if they have different reasons for it.
I suppose. Actually, having you mention it like that, does make me want to play an Orzhov deck, even if that isn't what I got the feeling of when I did play them. And about the religious "undertones"; they aren't really under anything, white has been very religious since alpha, pretty much.



A while ago it started up, discussion about using the colour wheel in D&D, that newer topic is a more crunchy version from that original discussion. Honestly unless you are just going to translate a few spells into D&D because they do fun things i don't see a whole lot of point in translating classes and creatures an otherstuff in any large degree without using the colour wheel, it is essentially the basis of all mtg flavor.

Yeah. Plus, the color wheel allows for a lot more interesting character concepts and combinations.

[DMBlackhart]

planeswalker (http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/5572/wikis/page-3)

[Latronis]

So, as of right now, there aren't enough spells gained per level for this to work, but if it went more like this:

{table=head]Level|Spells Readied|Spells Known

1st| 5|11
2nd| 5|12
3rd| 5|13
4th| 5|14
5th| 5|15
6th| 5|16
7th| 5|17
8th| 5|18
9th| 5|19
10th| 6|20
11th| 6|21
12th| 6|22
13th| 6|23
14th| 6|24
15th| 6|25
16th| 6|26
17th| 6|27
18th| 6|28
19th| 6|29
20th| 7|30[/table]

If you have a spell readied, you can cast it. Casting it does not remove it from your spells readied. You can only have the number on the table in spells readied. By spending a Standard action (Could have a class ability to make it move at higher levels, and swift at level 20), you may put a spell back into your "deck" and draw a new spell. That spell then enters your spells readied, and you may cast it. Certain spells or abilities may affect this, returning all spells readied to your deck, and allowing you to draw that many cards for free. The "deck" is reshuffled (Mixing up the spells at random) every encounter, and spell effects such as scry let you see the top card or three of your "deck". This was what I was thinking of. Or, you could have it be like wizard casting, where you know every spell, and you make up your deck at the beginning of the day, but in order to make this class not ridiculous like the wizard, it needs some sort of restraint, which the "hand" and drawing system would provide.

Ok that makes more sense but i still like the idea of a hand and drawing outside of a card game. For PnP rpging i wouldn't want to play with such randomness. I'll really have to finish looking over the OP's stuff.


Ah, but if you actually compare them card for card, and against what a planeswalker can do, it is VERY different. And honestly, it should be. The spark may provide a lot of magical power, but it shouldn't be the only thing that separates the Planeswalker from your every day mage.

well the planeswalkers didn't really do anything the every day mage didn't, the difference was in scope, for the most part they used the same magic everyone else had access too. Just different spells from different planes and effectively godlike power. (and an odd instance or two when planeswalkers had a relevant role in stories to just will things to happen through basically the power of a god) And the neowalkers are pretty much just everyday mages who happen to be able to travel between planes. Which isn't such a bad for pnp campaigns. Since you could then have mages and neowalkers (planeswalkers are just too much to realistic include as player options) in any given story. Planeswalkers work brilliant in the card game, far better then this neowalker nonsense, but then if it were a pnp campaign the neowalkers would make for far better heros.


Exactly, because the zombies or undead don't have life. They are powered by negative energy, so the necromancer simply puts more negative energy, and *BAM* the zombies is OK again. It really isn't regeneration in the same way green or white regeneration is, it is more like the opposite; rather than healing them back from the brink of death, the Necromancer fills them up with negative energy, and they are remade. Mechanically the same, thematically different.

well black mana instead of its opposites green and white rather than 'negative energy' :tongue:

But then depending on how much d&d you'd keep negative energy could easily fall under the domain of black.


I suppose. Actually, having you mention it like that, does make me want to play an Orzhov deck, even if that isn't what I got the feeling of when I did play them. And about the religious "undertones"; they aren't really under anything, white has been very religious since alpha, pretty much.

Even down to the original board sweeper wrath of god, just a small correction but i didn't actually say undertones :smallsmile:


Yeah. Plus, the color wheel allows for a lot more interesting character concepts and combinations.

I agree the philosophies behind the colours are far more interesting and useful as a dm and player than the alignment system. While i would normally be adverse to certain powers being restricted to certain moral outlooks or philosophies of living it just works well in mtg, especially since almost everything mechanically is shared in some degree anyway.

[unosarta]

Ok that makes more sense but i still like the idea of a hand and drawing outside of a card game. For PnP rpging i wouldn't want to play with such randomness. I'll really have to finish looking over the OP's stuff.
Well, the thing is, if a DM correctly did it, it could work on a PnP, although it would be hard. Otherwise, it doesn't necessarily allow for other mechanics, like what we are talking about here, and if it does, it is pretty unbalanced.



well the planeswalkers didn't really do anything the every day mage didn't, the difference was in scope, for the most part they used the same magic everyone else had access too. Just different spells from different planes and effectively godlike power. (and an odd instance or two when planeswalkers had a relevant role in stories to just will things to happen through basically the power of a god) And the neowalkers are pretty much just everyday mages who happen to be able to travel between planes. Which isn't such a bad for pnp campaigns. Since you could then have mages and neowalkers (planeswalkers are just too much to realistic include as player options) in any given story. Planeswalkers work brilliant in the card game, far better then this neowalker nonsense, but then if it were a pnp campaign the neowalkers would make for far better heros.
I suppose that is true. Perhaps for a campaign setting, the Gods really are planeswalkers, playing an infinite duel of spells out in the heavens, abandoning their subjects on the mortal plane, leading to huge problems of magic castoff from the duels, as well as monsters summoned from the duels, which leads to the necessity of the PCs. Just a possibility. Also, you could in theory have an all Planeswalker party, just saying.



well black mana instead of its opposites green and white rather than 'negative energy' :tongue:
Well, yes. I was just saying if it were to apply to Dungeons and Dragons terms, sort of, I guess. I think you understand what I was saying. :smalltongue:



But then depending on how much d&d you'd keep negative energy could easily fall under the domain of black.
It already does, as far as I can tell. Vampires+Undead+Shades and Ghouls= negative energy. There isn't really another color that accomplishes that.



Even down to the original board sweeper wrath of god, just a small correction but i didn't actually say undertones :smallsmile:
Yeah, going over your post again, I can't find anything about undertones, so I have no idea what I was thinking. :smallamused:



I agree the philosophies behind the colours are far more interesting and useful as a dm and player than the alignment system. While i would normally be adverse to certain powers being restricted to certain moral outlooks or philosophies of living it just works well in mtg, especially since almost everything mechanically is shared in some degree anyway.

Exactly. Also, just because you "major" in a certain color does not mean that you can't use other colors (As far as I can tell), so you can make some very diverse and in-depth characters.

[Latronis]

Well, the thing is, if a DM correctly did it, it could work on a PnP, although it would be hard. Otherwise, it doesn't necessarily allow for other mechanics, like what we are talking about here, and if it does, it is pretty unbalanced.

Translating the odd spell or creature or character because it's cool is one thing, but if you wanted to actually run a whole campaign based around the mtg multiverse, honestly i think brewing up a new system would be best then just worry about what the spells would actually do in a hypothetically real situation rather than the mechanics of the game. While transmute is basically converting one spells energy into another how to balance that would depend on what kind of system it uses, where as something like scry which is in the end an augury type effect a quick glimpse into the future doesn't need to have an relation to scry mechanics in the card game since we won't have those some trappings that a card game does. Breaking something known like d20(as an exmaple) down to it's core and building it back can take all these things into consideration nor will we have to stick to any established spellcasting so it's not neccassarily unbalanced as it would be for prepared caster or theoreticaly even worse for a limited though spontaneous caster.


I suppose that is true. Perhaps for a campaign setting, the Gods really are planeswalkers, playing an infinite duel of spells out in the heavens, abandoning their subjects on the mortal plane, leading to huge problems of magic castoff from the duels, as well as monsters summoned from the duels, which leads to the necessity of the PCs. Just a possibility. Also, you could in theory have an all Planeswalker party, just saying.

Well magic is devoid of gods as is. Planeswalkers are as close as anything gets, and it's not that uncommon for them to play at gods either, there's a few instances of actual 'god' based religions but even the religious creatures still tends towards spirit or ancestor worship over gods that don't exist, or planeswalker(or other inordinately powerful creature) as god. Alternatively there is the use of neowalkers so post time spiral where the oldschool spark ceased to exist. Which though I hate that direction in the game, is ultimately better for a pnp campaign. Since they are pretty much just run of the mill whatever they were with the ability to traverse the planes under their own power.

Ofc all planeswalker parties are an option, but planeswalkers generally don't play nice together for extended periods of time. And it's not like you can't play an all god party in D&D anyway, but for the most part it's the little people being played. While planeswalkers duelling might end up seeing elves vs goblins i'd think it be more enjoyable for players to be in the thick of combat themselves, taking on the roles of the goblins and the elves in the magic world rather without the direct influence of planeswalkers (which naturally works better with the neowalkers who are a terrible fit in the cardgame)


Well, yes. I was just saying if it were to apply to Dungeons and Dragons terms, sort of, I guess. I think you understand what I was saying. :smalltongue:


Just being pedantic :smallbiggrin:


Exactly. Also, just because you "major" in a certain color does not mean that you can't use other colors (As far as I can tell), so you can make some very diverse and in-depth characters.

Then the problem only becomes how to use the colour pie. Clearly certain races are definitively aligned to one colour, infact apart from human everything is primarily aligned to a certain colour. Elves are primarily green (only occassionally branching of into other colours) Merfolk are blue, undead are black except for 'spirits' (with the exception of kamigawa) being primarily white. Goblins and dragons are pretty red defining. What kind of colour combinations do you allow? 1 only? 2? 3? (4 is exceedingly rare in mtg, and all 5 is quite special) only allied colours? do you allow enemy combinations? Do you restrict useage for off colour?

[The Antigamer]

Agreeing that something needs to be changed about the alignment restrictions, possibly eliminating them, and that the abilities besides mana and casting are lackluster. I mean, your level one ability doesn't even kick in until level 3. That means that a level one Planeswalker can do literally nothing besides cast its one spell that it knows. And that's just...just sad. Maybe up the spells known a bit.

[DualShadow]

I dont know if it have been talked about but reading the big spoiler wars you guys did is not really tempting.

Why cant I be a Green Planeswalker with a side of blue or black?
I mean there was no rule in Magic forbiding you to build decks of certain color combo was it?

[jokey665]

Why cant I be a Green Planeswalker with a side of blue or black?
I mean there was no rule in Magic forbiding you to build decks of certain color combo was it?

You can; it just requires giving up your normal 2 secondary colors (red and white, in the case of a Green primary).

[DualShadow]

Why is there the need to give up 2 colors, balance sake?

[DualShadow]

Someone still alive?