[3.5] Lesser Winged Template PEACH

[Bagel]

ok so I was looking at the winged template and was thinking it cost to much for things I don't need.

so i propose this variant

Winged Templateexcept for the following:

Type: Vermin become Magical Beasts, Humanoid becomes Monstrous Humanoid.

Speed: A winged creature gains a flight speed of 30ft

Maneuverability: manueverability based on Base Dexterity bonus.

+0 or lower - poor
+1 - clumsy
+2 - average
+3 or higher - good

Abilities: +2 Dex , -2 Con

[B]Skills: A winged creature gets a +2 racial bonus to balance, jump, and climb.

opinions?

[Zaydos]

I'd cap maneuverability at good because perfect maneuverability from wings just doesn't make sense to me. I might also make the maneuverability size dependent instead of Dex dependent, because in general maneuverability is size dependent.

[Bagel]

so how would that scale based on size?

larger the better or smaller the better?

[Zaydos]

Normally larger creatures (big dragons) have less maneuverability than smaller ones. Although actually the main case in the rules I can think of is with dragons, other than that they almost all have average maneuverability if they use wings (although good is so much better). Another option is HD/level, which is less likely to go down in the middle of the battle.

Or in other words: for monsters they can have average and just take improved flight. For PCs, from a PC point of view I want Good maneuverability as soon as I can get it, and from a DM point of view if the PC is giving up a level for flight I'd prefer it to be at least as good as the fly spell without adding on an extra bit of feat tax. Therefore my suggestion is for large and smaller creatures good maneuverability and for bigger ones average. Or maybe medium and smaller good, large and larger average (gargantuan and colossal poor?).

[Hyooz]

I'd cap maneuverability at good because perfect maneuverability from wings just doesn't make sense to me.

Hummingbirds? Lots of insects?

[Bagel]

well mechanically that may seem sound, thematically any creature with wings naturally wouldn't have a poor fly speed unless it was injured or encumbered.

this is why the dexterity scale seemed to make sense to me, as dex is the basic "speed" and agility of the creature in all its movements (gross motor and fine motor) with that in mind a higher dex allows for a better control of movement and a lower dex a more sluggish creature.

also in the real world smaller creatures (bees and hummingbirds) have excellent flight ability and larger animals like the albatross need a runway to achieve flight.. and i believe that is based on wingspan/speed versus weight

so i'm thinking a marriage of the two needs to be put together

[Zaydos]

Hummingbirds? Lots of insects?

Typically have good in D&D, and cannot move backwards at full speed or up as quickly as forward (the main differences in between perfect and good). The main examples of perfect maneuverability in D&D are air elementals and air elemental creatures.

[Bagel]

so i will probably modify the table to use good as the max

something like

manueverability based on Base Dexterity bonus.

+0 or lower - poor
+1 clumsy
+2 average
+3 or higher good

[Andion Isurand]

Two Threads

What is the Average Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159125)

Variant Avariels + Winged Template Mod (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160168)

For your template, I'd give a flight speed that is the same as the base land speed. I would grant average manuverability regardless of dex. IMO... the change from landbound to airborne is most of what your +1 LA should be about.

My +2 LA template is focused on the act of flying, and as such I wanted it to outperform similar half-fey and half-dragon templates.

Between our two templates, we could even make a Winged Template Class.

[Bagel]

i was mainly trying to drop the unnecessary huge stat boosts from the original template and adding in some skill bonuses that would be thematic but not huge.

dropped the bonus language cause having wings doesn't automatically mean you know a language...

so when you break it down my template gives mosts races

50ft flight at average-good speed, some stat adjustment (no net gain) and a few racial skill perks for +1 LA ... seems fair when compared to other +1 LA templates.

edit:

after thought, i will change it to a 30ft speed period regardless of land speed, but maintain the maneuverability progression function.

[Bagel]

dropped the bonus to spot in favor of climb , it made more sense. considering wings and vision aren't related.

[MoleMage]

If vermin are becoming magical beasts, should they not have an intelligence score of some kind?

[Andion Isurand]

good point