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Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 12:07 AM
In a campaign I'm jumping in, We are all given 2 free LA (that's right, 2 free LA)

however, the problem is that we can only take one PrC

We already have everything but a melee/tank, and I want to be a Good Guy.

Here's my build:

Race: Human Saint (using the 2 la, I am taking the Good Guy schtick to a new level)
Class: Mystic Fire Knight 10/Fist of Raziel 10
Non-Classic Feats: Sword of the Arcane Order, Serenity

are there any other good ACFs for Paladin

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 12:31 AM
Charging Smite is decent if you arne't gonna be riding. Don't forget to check out SpC for additional pally spells, particularly Rhino's Rush, Knight's Move, and Righteous Fury.

Wings of Peace
2010-08-10, 12:34 AM
Don't forget that the Saint template requires you to take a handful of Exalted feats.

KillianHawkeye
2010-08-10, 06:45 AM
What's a Mystic Fire Knight?

Volthawk
2010-08-10, 06:50 AM
What's a Mystic Fire Knight?

From Champions of Valour. Paladin substitution levels, gives higher CL and more spells, smites now make casters have to pass a Concentration check to cast or spell trigger/completion items and lets you add a dispel effect to attacks instead of curing disease.

Linky. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051104a)

Boci
2010-08-10, 07:53 AM
are there any other good ACFs for Paladin

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870162/The_Paladins_Handbook_--_2007

Not sure how many can be taken by you though. Battle blessing is another good feat for paladin's if you can find the room for it.


From Champions of Valour. Paladin substitution levels, gives higher CL and more spells, smites now make casters have to pass a Concentration check to cast or spell trigger/completion items and lets you add a dispel effect to attacks instead of curing disease.

Linky. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051104a)

Weren't there a lot of extra ones available on wizard.com? Edit: Found it/ http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 10:30 AM
okay. Good thoughts, though maybe I'll ask my DM if I can add one more substitution class level (Crescent Moon Knight's 10th level), since none of the Faerun Deities are in this campaign, and minus PrCs, he's waiving deity requirements.

- Is Drakkensteed Mount worth giving up a normal mout, when comboed with the ACF that gives them Celestial template?

- Would Dragonscale Husk be worth a feat, since I'm kind of already having decent armor (Saint's WIS bonus + Serenity)?

- Is it better to Charging Smite or to Spirited Charge/Smite with a lance?

- What are the best Exalted Feats for Paladins who can cast some Wizard spells?

herrhauptmann
2010-08-10, 10:39 AM
- Is Drakkensteed Mount worth giving up a normal mout, when comboed with the ACF that gives them Celestial template?


Is it worth it giving up your horse in exchange for a dragon that is also from heaven and can fly?
You're joking right?

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 10:44 AM
Is it worth it giving up your horse in exchange for a dragon that is also from heaven and can fly?
You're joking right?

I was actually gonna pick a Pegasus or Griffin, so is it worth giving up a Pegasus for a Dragon

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 11:16 AM
Charging from a mount with a lance IS better than the Charging Smite varient, however, you aren't always able to charge on your mount. Difficult terrain like wooded or bushy areas make charging impossible, and fitting a large+ sized mount into a dungeon isn't always a possible option. If you are small sized with a medium mount (like a halfling on a riding dog), dungeons become a lot more navigable, but you still run into problems with small rooms and corners in hallways and other problems. Also, vision.

A mount is a VERY powerful option, when you can bring it into play. Its also very easy to limit, however, and a DM might neuter your ability to use your mount without even realizing it. It might be better to have an ability you can use all the time (Charging Smite) than one you can only rarely use.

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 12:12 PM
Charging from a mount with a lance IS better than the Charging Smite varient, however, you aren't always able to charge on your mount. Difficult terrain like wooded or bushy areas make charging impossible, and fitting a large+ sized mount into a dungeon isn't always a possible option. If you are small sized with a medium mount (like a halfling on a riding dog), dungeons become a lot more navigable, but you still run into problems with small rooms and corners in hallways and other problems. Also, vision.

A mount is a VERY powerful option, when you can bring it into play. Its also very easy to limit, however, and a DM might neuter your ability to use your mount without even realizing it. It might be better to have an ability you can use all the time (Charging Smite) than one you can only rarely use.

Well, considering that outside of combat, the mount is vastly useful (since we have to sometimes travel several thousand miles)

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 12:46 PM
I'd assume your whole party isn't gonna ride on your flying mount? If not, how are they going to cross this thousands of miles? Most likely, either on mundane horses, water traffic (if possible), airship (again, if possible), or magical means like teleportation. Why can't you travel under similar circumstances? Unless its something like a CL limitation on teleporting, or such, generally one more person isn't gonna sink a boat or crash an airship, and if everyone else is on a horse, having a celestial ubersteed and running circles around them isn't gonna get the whole lot of you anywhere any faster.

Just some general commentary. Its the same problem with stealth skills. You can be the stealthiest mofo ever to stealth in stealthmode, but Clangy McFullplate next to you is gonna really cramp your style. Granted, you could stealth ahead of the party, but what happens if you are spotted far away from your party? You're dead. Same thing on a magical pegasus or whatever. If you are flying far ahead of your party and a big dargon swoops out of a cloud and decides to make you into a mid-afternoon snack, you're pretty much boned by yourself. If you are sticking around with your party, your advantage of epic hooves is negated. It can be an advantage, but in many cases that advantage is negated by the other sorry schmucks you force yourself to associate with. Lowest common denominator and such.

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 01:01 PM
I'd assume your whole party isn't gonna ride on your flying mount? If not, how are they going to cross this thousands of miles? Most likely, either on mundane horses, water traffic (if possible), airship (again, if possible), or magical means like teleportation. Why can't you travel under similar circumstances? Unless its something like a CL limitation on teleporting, or such, generally one more person isn't gonna sink a boat or crash an airship, and if everyone else is on a horse, having a celestial ubersteed and running circles around them isn't gonna get the whole lot of you anywhere any faster.

Just some general commentary. Its the same problem with stealth skills. You can be the stealthiest mofo ever to stealth in stealthmode, but Clangy McFullplate next to you is gonna really cramp your style. Granted, you could stealth ahead of the party, but what happens if you are spotted far away from your party? You're dead. Same thing on a magical pegasus or whatever. If you are flying far ahead of your party and a big dargon swoops out of a cloud and decides to make you into a mid-afternoon snack, you're pretty much boned by yourself. If you are sticking around with your party, your advantage of epic hooves is negated. It can be an advantage, but in many cases that advantage is negated by the other sorry schmucks you force yourself to associate with. Lowest common denominator and such.

the DM is giving the rest of the party ways to "keep pace" with me. For instance, the wizard is half-fiend (though has turned from his evil ways), the fighter is given flying shoes, ect. It isn't that I don't WANT free magic items/templates/ect. to fly, I just want to do it innately (since I've spent my 2 LA on Saint). They won't cramp my style, they just need DM's help to accomplish what I can. Remeber, we have some oddball characters (a Half-Air Elemental Raptoran rogue, a guy who's actually taking a Monster class with a template (Half-Fire Earth Elemental) who's going into Monk (firey kung-fu fists anyone?) and an Incarnate Maug Fighter. I still am a better melee than the IMFm but he's a glorified beatstick with a double sword.

Keld Denar
2010-08-10, 01:10 PM
Wait...people actually play Incarnate Construct Maugs? WTF? I guess I have seen everything.

And now back to your regularly schedule'd thread.

Definitely go with the flying mount then. Diving Spirited Charges with a +1 Valorous (PGtF) lance while wearing Riding Boots (MIC) after casting Rhino's Rush on a full Smite is gonna pretty much 1-shot most dragons 3-4 CR above your level. Thats easily 7x base damage (smite damage gets multiplied), non-crit. A crit would kick that up to 9x. If you are 10th level, just the smite damage will be 70-90 points, and thats before you factor in things like base weapon damage, +Str, and Power Attack (2handed, of course).

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 01:17 PM
Wait...people actually play Incarnate Construct Maugs? WTF? I guess I have seen everything.

And now back to your regularly schedule'd thread.

Definitely go with the flying mount then. Diving Spirited Charges with a +1 Valorous (PGtF) lance while wearing Riding Boots (MIC) after casting Rhino's Rush on a full Smite is gonna pretty much 1-shot most dragons 3-4 CR above your level. Thats easily 7x base damage (smite damage gets multiplied), non-crit. A crit would kick that up to 9x. If you are 10th level, just the smite damage will be 70-90 points, and thats before you factor in things like base weapon damage, +Str, and Power Attack (2handed, of course).

OUCH!!!!

That would be my melee option, plus I can cast Wizard Spells thanks to SotAO

Fax Celestis
2010-08-10, 01:19 PM
Take Battle Blessing. It with Sword of the Arcane Order is carazay. Any spell you cast, swift action.

Pechvarry
2010-08-10, 01:24 PM
If your DM allows it. I posted about the combo here and got a page worth of being shot down on the RAW of it. But it's Paladin and the combo isn't broken. And it sounds like your GM is willing to bend a wee bit of RAW.

true_shinken
2010-08-10, 01:25 PM
Take Battle Blessing. It with Sword of the Arcane Order is carazay. Any spell you cast, swift action.

It's kinda doubtful if Battle Blessing works if Sword of the Arcane Order. They are not paladin spells - they are wizard spells cast from paladin slots.

Also, I'd use killoren as a base race, for their racial smite.

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 01:30 PM
It's kinda doubtful if Battle Blessing works if Sword of the Arcane Order. They are not paladin spells - they are wizard spells cast from paladin slots.

Also, I'd use killoren as a base race, for their racial smite.

Human gets a Bonus feat (the build is HIGHLY feat starved)

and my DM ruled that with SotAO, Battle Blessing applies, since technically you add wizard spells to your spell list

herrhauptmann
2010-08-10, 02:02 PM
I was actually gonna pick a Pegasus or Griffin, so is it worth giving up a Pegasus for a Dragon

Ahh missed that.
Looking at it, looks like Drakkensteed is the worst flier of the 3. 60ft poor maneuverability.
And I'd have sworn that it got a weak breath weapon which would've looked awesome.
Beyond being a poorer flier, I'd say the griffon is best.

Tokuhara
2010-08-10, 04:00 PM
Ahh missed that.
Looking at it, looks like Drakkensteed is the worst flier of the 3. 60ft poor maneuverability.
And I'd have sworn that it got a weak breath weapon which would've looked awesome.
Beyond being a poorer flier, I'd say the griffon is best.

DM said he'd upgrade the mount as needed

herrhauptmann
2010-08-10, 04:27 PM
Above and beyond the paladin upgrades? Sweet